Break Ups HBLisboa - Huge Lesson for Tiny Thing

[Devilicious]

A story of a massive fuckup, a huge lesson for a small thing learned in the most painful of ways.

Putting in in "relationships" category because feels most accurate somehow, please change it if different opinion arises.


HBLisboa. Met her in middle of January, a gorgeous hot blonde from Lisbon. Biologist, super smart, very caring. Semi-professional dancer and surfer. Absolute 10 for me, a "strike" as Chase puts it. Seduced her of sorts as we met in a social circle group, then met up with her later one-on-one for cinnamon buns. We had both been to Sweden at the same time. Texting highlights here was me sending a picture of “what element are you” and her responding with Earth. This was her reasoning:

Spoiler: Earth

Earth energy is stable, is responsible for balance and for keeping everything connected and in place. If it shakes for some reason, everything may fall apart. Also, the earth is capable of producing incredible things when well treated, but also has the capacity to adapt when the environment is hostile

In cinnamon bun date, was wonderful, and lead her straight home and we have sex. I had ED but was solved. She is very sexual and sensual, and feels extremely much.

She overall had a 5 year relationship with a pretty toxic dude, a professional paddel player, where the last two years they were long distance since he moved to Madrid. And she flew to visit him every single weekend, spent all the little money she received from working and birthdays to pay for the flights that were super early and super late. And he would have her come and then question things, “Ah I don’t know if I want to be with you, but am comfortable,” and for Christmas she spent 100 Euros of her last 150 Euros for the entire month on his gift and he said “Why didn’t you get me something more expensive”
She would write him love letters, everything, he wouldn't even open them.

And when there she would go watch and analyze his games for and with him.

Then they broke up, she went to Sweden, he chased her hard, she was done with it. And in Sweden slept with 3-4 more guys, some one night stands, some multiple times. Rediscovering her sexuality and realizing it can be really enjoyable, because before just felt like a body to be used. So more for herself.

Then she went back to Portugal, and had some really big health and/or mental issue, because I still don’t know what it was (she said she’d tell me but not then because she’d cry) but all I know is that she lost a looot of weight, and once she got the super prestigious amazing 1-year job offer in my country she declined it. But then last second still called to say she’d do it.

And then lots of dealing with whatever it was, mental stuff that I think came from physical problem because she had surgeries. Oh, and also had a certain sudden problem with her eyes in Stockholm so she couldn’t do any sports anymore really and in fact is still a big issue. But was huuuge, she had/has big insecurities about her eyes because of it (despite them being the most gorgeous eyes I have ever seen), and in general more things on her mind than she lets on. There was something else big (I think health) and when sussing out what it could be I ask if it was a boy or something, and she laughs sarcastically and says, “A boy?! I would never be this down for a boy!”

The type where she’s strong for others because others rely on her but she is not so strong for herself.

So I met her in January, then we spent a week apart because I had visit from HBPoland and her friend was also visiting, then saw each other few times before I went to Turkey for 10 days for HBTurkishDancer; Then came back and we had a week before I went for Brazil for 2 weeks. Then came back, we had like 3 weeks, then I went to NY for 1 month.

What there is to mention is that I finally managed to fuck her raw right before Brazil, which she is hyper scared about actually, she worked with HIV patients and has seen what it does to lives. So I even do an STD test before Brazil to make sure I’m clean, and I was, and then she indeed brings it up and I reveal I did the test, because if I promise something I mean it (me saying I’m clean). She says it’s the kindest thing anyone has done for her. Also have to mention, she is a hypochondriac.

We text during the time I’m away, she’s also type that loooves to travel and is visiting lots of cities in my countries. And has her close friends from since kids, and high school, and college. Doesn’t easily trust new people, and in fact tells me once that she feels like she used to be emotionally open and her body was hard to get, and now is opposite.

So during NY I also get stressed about her because she is texting me less kiss emojis and in general, and it makes me anxious also because of other stress I have for future. Feels like she’s holding herself back. Although towards end I add things like, looking forwards to see you soon, and she mirrors it also more enthusiastically and begins her kiss emojis again in way higher frequency.

So when I get back, I see her same day despite massive jetlag and having not slept whatsoever. We meet, walk to place and sit down, and talk. And am holding her hand and kino-ing her, and after about an hour something in her changes and she goes from holding back to actually being active in touching me back!!

We go to her place, and we have the most incredible sex. Before we do, she asks me again that I didn’t have sex without a condom, and I reassure multiple times. Then go multiple rounds, do new positions, it is sooo intimate and beautiful and hot. I sleep over, in the morning fuck some more, is more intimate, she tries on clothes for the day later and looks so gorgeous we fuck again on the spot and she won’t let me go. Even blurts out “I love you” during sex and then quickly corrects to “I love how you feel” but I think she meant it.

Between rounds she’s lying face down on the bed, and I have my phone in my hand, so I decide to snap a few pictures of her beautiful body.

This was the fatal mistake. NEVER DO THIS AND JUST ASK HER.

She doesn’t notice, but later, through a series of crazy coincidences that ended up her seeing my gallery and noticing her pictures, lead to her seeing her pictures…

So what happened was we were then eating lunch, and I asked her about the one particularity she has that rather bothered me, which was that she only was sending me one-time view pictures. Of anything! Not even just her, even if just a random view or food. And I asked her about this.

She said that she feels really uncomfortable about having her pictures on someone else’s gallery; like her ex boyfriend when they were long distance would really want nudes and gaslight her into saying it was important for the relationship and everything, but she would still not do it! And because a friend of hers had nudes on her phone and then had her phone repaired; and the Indian guys repairing it managed to extract the nudes and then they were uploaded to the internet.

And she in general does not like how she looks in pictures and is insecure about how she looks in them, which is BS because she’s absolutely gorgeous and stunning, but alas. Insecurities there.

And then after this she finds out I took nudes of her…

She asks me, did you take pictures of me? And I immediately know is fucked, and act casual. “Oh, yes, here. Took them but I can delete them, do you want me to delete them?” She says yes and I delete them in front of her.

She stands up and goes about doing things, but I can tell now something is off. A few idle sentences are exchanged before I grab her and bring it up again and say I apologize, I realize is big deal for her, shouldn’t have done it.

She turns to me. Tells me that is absolutely unacceptable, that she is fully vulnerable with her body with me, and now “I can never trust you with my body again.” That is criminal even.

“I understand,” is a phrase I say a few times, slowly, seeing how she’s cutting me off and closing off in front of my eyes. See how I can pace a lead to that it’s not a big deal to me or people I know, which it isn’t right, but she does not consider this worldview at all. “You cannot do this to ANYONE you like,” she says. “It is criminal. It’s actually a crime”. I say how it is not about the body at all but about capturing the memory, the moment for me, because is so beautiful to me. “If you want to see me you can just see me,” she says.

She asks me to leave. I agree that I should go, and slowly gather my stuff from her room. She also asks if I really did not have sex without a condom (her questioning everything I said now, and you can tell how important this is to her), which I say I would not lie about. She stays in the kitchen, and I don’t even see her when I whisper a “bye” towards her direction and close the door.

From one second to the next. A beautiful thing… destroyed.

Because it was exactly on this night that a “breakthrough” moment happened, I could really tell that we were going to end up together, she was opening up, showed me her vibrator, we had future plans in place a bit for things to do, it was the exact blooming moment of a new relationship.

And exactly, precisely in the moment it bloomed, it was nipped in the bud. Cut off on the spot, violently.

The situation is also that I am in a new city since 10 months and 2 months left, and I was going to see if I could stay, largely also for her…


I feel horrible.


I text her soon after:

Spoiler: Texts

I am text in blue, she is red.

I wanted to apologize again. It was an in the moment feeling that was not the right one in any way. It is extremely good that you saw it in same overall moment. There’s no excuse about it, somehow in moment felt like deep profound adoration, and that’s the world to me. Like the beauty of an in the moment smile you see your friends having. Never in the slightest about ‘revealing’ or anything like this, which suddenly becomes massively a thing and there’s nothing can do about it now.
Not as an excuse, or anything like this, just wanting to let this know. Because is important and you’re important to me, and I make mistakes not thinking, so in whatever way it means now

I appreciate your message and I accept your apologies, but this is something that I will not tolerate, it’s something that i don’t want for myself
This is also something that you don’t do to people that you like

Completely understand and agree. And this is what hurts me also by my not thinking, honestly, because am completely agreeing. No matter what even loving feeling it was coming from. In the end perhaps it’s not really this that matters, I don’t know

What matters is transparency and trus, love will never justify everything I wish you all the best NAME

I understand. Thank you for everything and what you’ve taught me. Forever wishing you all the best in all ways for the future.
Take care of yourself, and always remember you are more capable than you think

Her: Heart likes the last message.

Ironic that capturing a picture for a memory literally turned her into a memory forever…

So now, am feeling extremely down about this…

Reached out to all my close friends and people I trust, @Skippy and @Kvothe saw me cry; @Bismarck , @Dreamer and @Skills all said my taking pictures without asking was retarded and a stupid mistake to make, which I fully agree with!! (And of course they are amazing friends that helped me cope emotionally with it).

Skills said that now should go radio silent, standard procedure if she is the one doing breakup. Which I will now do. But it sucks because we never really actually were together, so I don’t think this will work with a girl feeling so violated and overtriggered, and able to cut things. Especially, and this is the main point, because we never actually were together officially.

She was someone very slow to trust people, and once trust is broken, is over… so is it even worth it to rebuild? Most likely not.

So then I was wondering how it would work on instagram since we have each other, but this happened on Thursday lunchtime, and then I find out Saturday that she actually had removed me from following her on instagram (so I can’t see her pictures at all anymore, since she has private account - is she doing this in a “Now I won’t let him see a single picture of mine anymore” headspace?) and unfollowed me as well. But didn’t block me on whatsapp or so, which would have been the worst.

So now I can’t even ping her indirectly with cool stories here and there.

Overall feel very hurt, just this freak event that happened (the leadup to her seeing the pictures was so full of coincidences. First, I had leaned against the oven, which then with my butt I activated the SAFE mode. And it was already a coincidence I could stay and not have meetings, and the meeting I did have was cancelled. And I was going to leave before lunch but then stayed as well. And then she wanted to make herself a pizza for lunch, needing the oven. Which wasn’t working. Then I pull open ChatGPT to take a picture of the oven and how to fix it. And then she doesn’t see it. And we fix it. And then I am still on the app and accidentally click on “upload image” again, and in the pop up she only now sees the photos… and it was weird, because I had taken a rapid-fire amount, which I don’t know why. So now it was even more obvious there were pictures. So she saw it…)

So just feeling sense of loss, of pain, and knowing I’ll get over it, but just damning that it had to happen this way. And I still don’t know if a dodged a big bullet perhaps because her communication style is more closed off, not sharing so easily, while a big love language of mine is words of affirmation actually. Which made me frustrated texting her in NY. And if she flares up like this for one thing, most likely she would have flared up in the future for something else! And I would be miserable.

I also did fall under her frame I think, she is very perceptive, and knows exactly what she wants. Already knows where her honeymoon will be and what expectations she has of her husband on how he treats her. So I’m just filling a box here somehow. And I was kind of falling under her frame to be honest. Crazy because I never really expected myself to. But I have no strong ideas or goals here, while she does, so it does get imposed on me. How crazy to see it happen in real life so to speak.

Also there is a side fact that I'm still seeing HBTurkishDancer and I'd have to break up with her most likely to be with HBLisboa. But HBTurkishDancer is long distance. And HBTurkishDancer is an incredible personality fit, vision board body for me, just face is cute but not stunning. But I'm apparently pretty sloppy for some things at times, like hiding pictures, so there is a non-zero chance that HBLisboa would have found out somehow about HBTurkishDancer due to seeing some texts or me hiding me phone of sorts. Can't be hidden forever, now can it. So I'd probably have to end it. Just a side note of how I was feeling about it too.

I’ve been reaching out to many people, including normies, to talk about this, and it really has been helping dealing with the emotional pain. My gay friend had some really good advice on this, and I was in fact considering texting her on Sunday a ping of “hello, how are you doing” (phrased better) and by her response see if I can have an opening at tiding things over. Which, my emotional self is willing to do. And if she doesn’t, then, well, that’s it as well.

But then Skills responded and said radio silence was best, and in these things trust him more than anyone, so this is what I’ll do. Except that since we were never actually together and how her personality is, I think this may mean her not contacting me forever… which hurts. Maybe for best, cannot tell now.

And the instagram thing really seems like she’s not in “give him chance to fight for this” at all.

So I’d like to know what you guys think about this case, like @Chase what I should do, and what to learn here. What am I seeing and what am I not seeing.

Because this place here is like home and in the end one of the true places to come back to for actual advice and help, and is so appreciated. And this is of course me speaking from my emotional self as well right now.

One thing that has been helping has been telling myself how she can never replace me or find someone as good as me, because who else can fuck her like I can, have as good as a body as me (I’m fit, not jacked but very fit), and stimulate her mind in the ways I can? Be as non-judgmental, positive, and happy about life? Bring the beauty and excitement in small and big ways and moments? Be present in the moment and really feel her, understand her, and stimulate and direct her slowly in the ways she wants to be able to go? Give her strength like I can through this? I’ve fucking worked so hard on myself and ability to connect with people, understand them and let them feel understood, and now steering to doing what they truly want, add positivity and beauty to their life, and be extremely self aware of myself, my actions, her actions, and her?

She described my personality by my birth month once through a reel:

Spoiler: Birth month

Fresh, free-spirited, and full of curiosity, you move through the world with an air of effortless charm. You are a storyteller, a wanderer, a dreamer who finds beauty in the smallest details. People feel refreshed in your presence, like a cool breeze on a summer afternoon

Which is a heck of a cold read, is so accurate!!

She will never meet someone like me. I just wonder if it will be buried in auto-rejection, with the occasional secret longing, but not allowing herself to follow through, out of principle…

This is totally an ego-stroking mechanism right now to think this and I believe it, and I wrote it out because it makes me feel better and I am in need of feeling better. I don’t get angry about almost anything in life, so when something happens, I just feel sad and anxious. But I know I’ll be okay.

And this sets me way more free than I was before, so many adventures to go on, skills to refine, stories to make... I am not even close to my full potential. And I've already come so far.

It is also interesting to note I apparently am not so resistant to making deeper connections with girls; Just that I should be more deliberate about how and in what way... let this be a good lesson then. In some way.



What are your thoughts? What am I missing in your eyes, what did I do well, what would you think I should do for future or learn from this in best way? Anyone reading this now with a willingness to share a piece of your mind, please let me know

Thanks for your thoughts!


And may our journeys take us to the brightest of places and most beautiful and loveliest of women.

 

[Skills]

Wait the first thing i suggested is to go into strategic position of weakness, which you did masterfully.... but now there is nothing you can do, if you keep doubling down and tripling down wont work in my experience....

i said you can still ping if a major holiday or event comes up... (post radio silence)

you can use you instagram in a passive aggressive way putting subliminal messages directed to her.....

"like in the instagram stories post something like" when you make a life mistake or you mess it up with someone you really like type messages....

like once a week (women do that), and she can see it, and she knows is her....


But other than that, her ball is on her court, radio silence works because of the sense of lost (post the last message), what else can you do?? apologize more times, doesn't work, beg doesnt work, persist doesn't work....

radio silence works..... not always but most of the time, and yes even with fbs... (if you fucked more than 3 times that is)

 

[Atlas IV]

Haven't got much advice to offer since I can't say I've been in a situation like yours with a girl who sounds so incredible on all fronts, and it falling to pieces over a tiny slip-up.

It sounds like you're doing all the right things to process it emotionally - reaching out to friends, writing it out.

I just know that the journey of seduction is a journey of reference points and experiences, and it seems like this was an emotionally rich experience for you that will shape you in many ways going forward.

So I envy that you got to go through such a powerful human experience, which will undoubtedly be a big source of growth

 

[Chase]

@Devilicious,

Sorry that you lost a girl you really liked. That's tough.

This is a codependent girl with lots of trauma, both personal and romantic. These types tend to have 'triggers' that send them over the edge, like she did with the photo. They also have a particular type of man they need for an LTR, basically a guy who is a 'project' for them. You can see how her entire relationship with the ex-boyfriend was her chasing after him while he pulled away, him being ungrateful and her just working even harder, etc.

There actually is a "get her back" pathway, and I wrote it out at first, but then I deleted it, because it is some fucked up dark seduction tech.

For now I will just say, this is the kind of girl who if she feels that she is the one who betrayed you, that she overreacted and damaged you, and that you sacrificed so much for her only to be kicked to the curb, she will usually come running back to be the savior again and heal the damage she's accused of having done. But then if you want to keep her long-term, you also need to keep that up (just like her ex did).

It is a fucked up dynamic, but it is the dynamic a girl like this needs to attach properly, if and until she heals her codependency.

If you want my personal take, it would be to take the lesson from this, realize that this was not the right girl for you, as she is not capable at this point of a healthy relationship without these toxic elements strewn in. Then for your next girl screen for signs of heavy codependency like this and avoid the ones who show it.

btw... taking a naked picture of a girl in her sleep is a bit of a fuckup. Don't do that. But it is not a MASSIVE fuckup. A girl who will take an otherwise healthy 3-month old relationship and shitcan it because "my boyfriend took a photo of me in my sleep; unforgivable" is not in a healthy headspace.

Don't go too crazy overanalyzing this situation. A mentally healthy chick with a secure attachment style would be like, "I don't like you having naked pictures of me on your phone," and you would be like, "I'm sorry, I just thought you looked so beautiful lying there in the bed like that," and she would be like, "Can you delete those please?" and you would be like, "If you wish. But I will be sad to do it!" and you would delete them and that would be the end of it.

(biggest fuckup here on your part I would say would be that it sounds like you lost frame when she challenged you on the pics... frame should've been "I will delete them out of respect to your wishes, but they are so beautiful their loss will be a tragedy" etc. Basically you are acting out of respect to her, but still feel what you did was right, an appreciation of her beauty, etc.)

Chase

 

[Bismarck]

As I've already had a chance to tell you, I feel for you, brother. I know this pain you're feeling; I've been there.

Like I've also already told you, regarding nude media (photo, video), she will either give you her consent, or you don't get it. I told you I once attempted to take a picture without consent. It came off poorly (as in, you couldn't see her properly), and I felt weak and emasculated doing it.

OTOH I've had lots of success asking girls for consent to photograph them nude, and even making what you might call amateur porn. Also, having them send me nudes. Girls will even send you media without your prompting when they really like you.

Regarding the girl, I'm with Chase here - you dodged a bullet. If it wasn't for this slight mishap (important lesson learned), some other mistake of yours would have made her fly off the handle. It's best to nip it now than if you'd gotten even more emotionally invested in her and then had to pull back like Ambiance.

Lastly, I can corroborate some of your self-analysis. I agree that you make for pleasant company and have grown a lot for a young man of your age. With a bit more screening as Chase suggests, and once you've healed the pain you're feeling, you shouldn't have too much trouble replacing her.

 

[Devilicious]

Thank you everyone for your replies, means a lot to me.

Wait the first thing i suggested is to go into strategic position of weakness, which you did masterfully.... but now there is nothing you can do, if you keep doubling down and tripling down wont work in my experience....

Yes did my best shot at strategic weakness, didn't work so now does feel like tripling down won't do much and only sediment it for her.

i said you can still ping if a major holiday or event comes up... (post radio silence)

When you mean post radio silence, you mean only after the reached out? Or after 3-6 months.

you can use you instagram in a passive aggressive way putting subliminal messages directed to her.....

Not anymore, she removed me from Insta, as in removed me following her and also unfollowed me. And I have it so that I only upload stories to "close friends", where she is not there anymore. It shows me the option to add her but I don't think I should. Unfortunate because have a really cool high value activity I got great videos of this weekend that I would really have loved for her to see. Oh well.

But other than that, her ball is on her court, radio silence works because of the sense of lost (post the last message), what else can you do?? apologize more times, doesn't work, beg doesnt work, persist doesn't work....

radio silence works..... not always but most of the time, and yes even with fbs... (if you fucked more than 3 times that is)

Suppose so! Let's see what happens. And I assume if she ever reached out, to just play it cool? And standard escalating soft close procedure from there, if I even want it.

I just know that the journey of seduction is a journey of reference points and experiences, and it seems like this was an emotionally rich experience for you that will shape you in many ways going forward.

So I envy that you got to go through such a powerful human experience, which will undoubtedly be a big source of growth

I hope you never have to go through this brother, but I agree with you and am on some level always thankful for what I experience as well. So looking forward to seeing what we will achieve and learn and live

This is a codependent girl with lots of trauma, both personal and romantic. These types tend to have 'triggers' that send them over the edge, like she did with the photo. They also have a particular type of man they need for an LTR, basically a guy who is a 'project' for them. You can see how her entire relationship with the ex-boyfriend was her chasing after him while he pulled away, him being ungrateful and her just working even harder, etc.

This is extremely interesting and eye opening because I had not considered this at all in this way, that she'd need a guy like that...

There actually is a "get her back" pathway, and I wrote it out at first, but then I deleted it, because it is some fucked up dark seduction tech.

For now I will just say, this is the kind of girl who if she feels that she is the one who betrayed you, that she overreacted and damaged you, and that you sacrificed so much for her only to be kicked to the curb, she will usually come running back to be the savior again and heal the damage she's accused of having done. But then if you want to keep her long-term, you also need to keep that up (just like her ex did).

Ahh I am completely unable to do dark stuff but oh boy am I super curious how it would look like, just to better understand the world and what other paths are... any chance you could PM me some details? We've talked and you know I'm a curious person that (for better or worse) could not do those bad-emotion things. Like Skippy and I were looking at this one tactic of Swinggcat where he suggests to let a girl go to date spot, text her to already get a drink, and after 10 minutes tell her to "Don't hate me, but..." and have her come to your place. All of this while you never left the house. And we were thinking, man no way in hell you could do this to a poor girl! But hearing about it somehow is just intellectually interesting, especially knowing you'll never do it. Expanding world views, knowing about the other side, to stay on yours... is just a deeply satisfying and freeing feeling I suppose because it confirms you are moving through the world how you want to by choice, rather than by ignorance of anything else out there.

Of course only if you want to, still feel happy to at least ask and see

If you want my personal take, it would be to take the lesson from this, realize that this was not the right girl for you, as she is not capable at this point of a healthy relationship without these toxic elements strewn in. Then for your next girl screen for signs of heavy codependency like this and avoid the ones who show it.

This is the great upside here, I will follow this, and I never really knew what signs of heavy codependency were. In fact still not quite sure, but anyone with past issues of some sort and difficulties opening up really, should be the main signs for me now to look for in this regard.

Don't go too crazy overanalyzing this situation. A mentally healthy chick with a secure attachment style would be like, "I don't like you having naked pictures of me on your phone," and you would be like, "I'm sorry, I just thought you looked so beautiful lying there in the bed like that," and she would be like, "Can you delete those please?" and you would be like, "If you wish. But I will be sad to do it!" and you would delete them and that would be the end of it.

These words actually really resonated with me and helped me quite a bit, because the realization hits that yes, actually, a healthy attachment style does not deal with things this way... even though was clear it was an overreaction, somehow putting it down in these terms makes it resonate with me more strongly.

(biggest fuckup here on your part I would say would be that it sounds like you lost frame when she challenged you on the pics... frame should've been "I will delete them out of respect to your wishes, but they are so beautiful their loss will be a tragedy" etc. Basically you are acting out of respect to her, but still feel what you did was right, an appreciation of her beauty, etc.)

Great learning for next time. Keep my frame even in those situations.

I reread your response many times and it really helps me a lot to better understand the situation. Especially what kind of girl she is and what she'd have needed. How interesting it is that you can always feel that something is slightly off but you feel you can handle it still. Silly, perhaps.

Regarding the girl, I'm with Chase here - you dodged a bullet. If it wasn't for this slight mishap (important lesson learned), some other mistake of yours would have made her fly off the handle. It's best to nip it now than if you'd gotten even more emotionally invested in her and then had to pull back like Ambiance.

Agree here deeply, it is becoming more clear that I dodged a bullet because I did feel that at some point something would set her off and her way of dealing with it would for sure be similar. So nipping it exactly in the bud is what results in the cleanest way for me.

I was thinking about this a lot, if one were to believe in destiny this would really seem like it had a cosmic hand in it... because too many coincidences happened, and exactly at the exact, specific, perfect for this, unique moment, for it to be nipped not before the budding, but exactly when it happened. By the hour exact. So I get all my learnings with the overall minimal amounts of corresponding pain. Even if it sucks for now! Will pass.

Lastly, I can corroborate some of your self-analysis. I agree that you make for pleasant company and have grown a lot for a young man of your age. With a bit more screening as Chase suggests, and once you've healed the pain you're feeling, you shouldn't have too much trouble replacing her.

<3


Thank you everyone for your responses, this place is like family to me, and everything and all responses helps me open my eyes and learn and grow and feel better as soon as possible Great and happy things await.

 

[Chase]

Glad to hear it helped, Dev.

I PM’ed you what that ‘get her back’ strategy would look like.

Should give you a better insight into the psychology of this type of girl.

Basically think ‘female white knight’ and your picture taking impugned her honor. You’d need to reframe that as her being the one acting dishonorably and doing harm.

Stupid game-playing IMO but if you’re gonna date a girl with hair-trigger breakup reasons that’s the kind of stupid game you’ve got to be prepared to play.

@ that Swinggcat example… LOL. NGL, that is pretty clever.

Chase

 

[POB]

Not gonna add much into what's already been said.
As a guy who met you in person, all I can say is this: you are a great dude and you gonna be fine.
We all make stupid mistakes, it's part of the journey...now take that pain as a lesson and move on.

Most important step in my opinion:

Spoiler

learn to forgive yourself!

Edit 1: agree with the guys that she has serious issues and you dodged a bullet
Edit 2: taking photos of her naked body using her phone can be a huge turn on, if done properly (role playing: photographer/model, swapping phones and asking her to take pictures of you using your phone, etc.).

 

[Devilicious]

Thank you so much all again. Really helps.

Should give you a better insight into the psychology of this type of girl.

Is extremely helpful because I never actually considered it in this way at all... great learning there...

My previous opinion was that she has issues, a lot at once, that she has been affected by and is improving the best she can. Which I did see signs of, which is why I was ok with it. But that it was too big of a trigger too soon in this case, and because she's in the dramatic healing process, she is doing her best by cutting out things she feels does not help. Whether overreaction or not.

But just like Skills says in his breakup video, a normal phase is to be her defense attorney, and is exactly what I'm doing now! Even though did have this feeling before but is it just ignorance speaking, maybe or maybe not, doesn't matter anymore.

What I'd be very curious to know, @Chase is that she also has signs of having good attachment style: Is extremely close to mom, really close to her dad and brother, has super close friends she's had forever, since a kid and also school, has shown she does lots for them. In spite of this, she can be codependent? As in have non-healthy attachment style? Just that she wasn't showing it so easily towards me, took a while; and doesn't easily trust people too. I just assumed it was "good soul put through bad stuff and healing in way she can, even if extreme" . But can also be 100% me talking in her defense, as per post-breakup protocol it seems.

Not gonna add much into what's already been said.
As a guy who met you in person, all I can say is this: you are a great dude and you gonna be fine.
We all make stupid mistakes, it's part of the journey...now take that pain as a lesson and move on.

Most important step in my opinion:

Spoiler

learn to forgive yourself!

Edit 1: agree with the guys that she has serious issues and you dodged a bullet
Edit 2: taking photos of her naked body using her phone can be a huge turn on, if done properly (role playing: photographer/model, swapping phones and asking her to take pictures of you using your phone, etc.).

Thank you brother, your words mean a lot to me.

Spoiler: Idle Thoughts That Help Me Process

Overall still just in the, feeling sad and even having dreams about her, phase, but also with the self-awareness of it all. Feeling really sense of loss and sadness. Just having to endure through it. And also some moments of happiness and feeling good. It alternates.

And also thinking, in general for a situation like this, if she hadn't ended things to decisively then maybe pinging after a week with strategic weakness would work. But if already did it and no effect, then persisting unlikely to work, so only radio silence left. And for girl like this feels extremely unlikely that she ever reaches out, just don't see it. Feels sad. But still best odds (even if miniscule odds) for radio silence, and in unlikely case she reaches out, it will be on my terms. But these are just the idle thoughts in my mind that I use to process the situation - I agree with everything you guys write and honestly I will just rather suffer now and then be fine, than allow a non-healthy attachment style into my life. So anything that comes or comes back has to be fully in these terms.

Spoiler: Learnings and Actual Realizations

@Skippy asked me two brilliant questions yesterday. The first one was, what would the Me of a year ago tell me about this now? And second, what would the Me a year from now say.

And I put myself in a small trance and thought about it.

The answers were very interesting.

The Me a year ago would have been a bit surprised by how I was open for a relationship and going into it.

Because a large part of my life is seduction; I go out, I think about it every day, and if you take it away... I'm not fully sure what I replace it with as a mission. There are of course other aspects of my life like sports, personal development, meditation, business, newly dance, that take up my time because I like it. But in terms of social things, I am not so close to people by choice, not skill, because busy with my own things. But now when I was more with her I suddenly was having extra time so to speak or just not sure how to use my time best... and I could feel a shift where I was going to go hard on sports, and also more hanging out with friends and people. How funny. All realizations that arose only now.

The Me a year from now would tell me that, yes I was open apparently, but I was going about it the wrong way. It was a sliding into it rather than a climbing towards where I wanted, and grab her hand and lead her there.

Because I don't have strong expectations or goals or anything in this, I just know that it feels good, so what I was doing was letting myself slide into it and specifically slide into the way she wanted things in a way. I didn't really know what kind of activities I wanted to do with her, how often to see, and what frames to insist on when with her. And I am confident I would have figured it out, and I was in the process of this actually, but it still revealed a huge blind spot where I never really knew how I really wanted things. Because on one hand we were never really together officially and in the way it was going to be right after coming back from NY and right before the breakup, so I didn't want to "push" for anything. All the advice also says to never be the one pushing for the relationship, and so definitely also leaned on side of "casual" with as much little nudging as I could. Because she was an incredible strike for me (3rd/4th strike though already, so also à la Chase style of wait for 3 of them, so felt more allowed to let myself go after her).

So I realized that I need to be more clear on what I want and how I want it. And be proactive about things rather than passive and set up choices so that can sus out which one she wants most (for activities and seeing each other for instance). Which was something I didn't quite like either honestly.

And so overall, a year ago I'd have been a bit surprised by it but understanding; and the Me a year from now would say it was done blindly in some sense without putting my own input first.

Spoiler: Learnings

LEARNINGS
- I need communication to be good, or like a girl with words of affirmation also as love language, for it to make me really happy

- When going into things I need to be clear on what I want and how I want it, not sliding but CLIMBING (analogy that works for me)

- Apparently I'm not so opposed to being with a girl for a bit; Never really had a girlfriend where we lived in same place and also there wasn't a big obvious cut going to happen (like moving to different countries). Also deliberate on my part; But for this big strike (and it being the third or fourth one) I let and made it happen.

- Girls with issues of sorts, or sensitive spots; Think about what kind of things could trigger them and why, and what this means

- I really am into girls who are smart. Likes sports, is positive, is capable in some way, witty, and has some shared experiences with me. And has great fashion. Is close to her mom. From most to lesser but still important, this are the things that get me excited (all of them do). That this girl was all of them.

- More learnings that I will update with as they materialize.

(- Guys who have been through breakups where they had high compatibility in sex and personalities, lived together, had common hobbies, friends, environment, and stories... how the fuck do they deal with it?? It's terrible!!! Hurtful for anyone, but sometimes I feel I'm especially sensitive towards feelings of loss. Like I get kind of anxious for even some movies! Where others wouldn't. Hmm.)

Well. Make your learnings, grit your teeth and endure it, process, and as usual - onwards!

-Dev

 

[the player of games]

You are clearly, very, very much into this girl. In fact, I would even aver that the breakup has heightened the intensity of the relationship as you perceive it in your heart-mind. You have the classic signs. I know because I go through the same process when I lose a girl I wanted so badly and then you find yourself talking to everyone about it because in your own heart-mind it is so beautiful that even the painful memory of it is worth it to try and keep such beauty alive as long as possible. Especially when you think the stars were so aligned and you think that this was 'meant to be'.

When you do stuff like posting her element and birth month etc. you are attaching significance to things that a lot of people may gloss over. I have done exactly the same sort of thing with a girl I lost over 2 years ago. Things she said, things she posted, things she read. So many synchronicities and serendipities that she herself saw and would stop and wonder. These are all symbolic elements which are attaching you to the relationship as you see it. They give it real meaning for you.

But it doesn't matter. You only wanted good things for her and you. She doesn't care. This girl is fucked. (I hope you will forgive my bluntness. I'm not trying to dis a girl you feel so much about. And I've fallen for girls who are fucked myself.) You dodged a bullet. This girl was a time bomb waiting to explode. She did explode. Fortunately before things progressed even further when it could have done a hell of a lot more damage. You got a surface wound, not one that hit a vital organ.

She was mad over a guy who treated her like shit. That could be bad luck. I doubt it. Remember, she chose him. Finally comes to her senses and dumps him. He chases her (surprise - not) which probably only increases the disgust she feels for him whereas he could have kept his position on the alpha widow throne in her head. The health and mental issues are BIG red flags. Big. Do not stick your dick in crazy. Unless she's really hot. And then run. Do not get involved with crazy. I know people with family who have mental issues. It's tragic. Heartbreaking. Run. A mile. I know the pull is hard, especially when she ticks all your boxes. This is a siren. You know what Odysseus thought of sirens. I take it back. You didn't dodge a bullet. You dodged a 122mm artillery shell.

If I was a girl, I would not like a man taking nude pictures of me. I am not a girl. I'm going to disagree with the other guys here. I don't think it's such a big sin what you did, as you had good intentions. You're not planning to post on the internet are you? Also, this is also a lesson on operational security. Lock that shit down. Have separate hidden/encrypted folders. A friend of mine does this. I've taken pictures (videos) even of a girl I was into. (She was nuts - bipolar.) However, I would also take videos of her and she would see what I was doing and not object. I haven't shown those videos to anyone else. Ever. I totally get why you took them. For beauty. For posterity. I'll speak for myself. One day, if I can still see properly, I will look back at the girls, even the crazy ones, and smile fondly. And remember a life well lived. And even memory aside, I totally get wanting to take a picture to capture a beautiful woman in repose. Women are fucking beautiful, gorgeous, stunning, wonderful, amazing creatures and they are the best thing about being a man in my opinion. Who would not want to capture such a work of art as you describe?

And here's another thing. Maybe it deserves another thread, maybe it's been discussed already. What about self-protection in this era of retrospective false rape allegations? I have a hidden camera which I have yet to setup and have, in fact, had for years. It could have saved me a lot of anguish had I done so when a girl who'd had a crush on me for years suddenly turned out to be bipolar (another chick) and flipped to 'what kind of a girl do you think i am?' after I made a very gentle move. (She's in my bed, is staying the night, we are under the covers). Next thing I know, crazy shit starts to happen which I don't want to talk about. Anyway, in this scenario, do you not think we men need to take measures to protect ourselves? I know you took your picture for different reasons, but the argument I'm making is that it's not so clear cut.

You had good intentions, you came clean, you were sincere in your apology and I'm sure you meant it. This girl cannot get that. She is in black and white mode. She has no nuanced (and it's not that much of a nuance to make) understanding of the situation. She's even questioning you over the condom-free sex. This means she no longer trusts you but you didn't lie and didn't hesitate in coming clean. I get that she is sensitive in this area because of previous history but you've done everything to reassure her that this is not the same and no normal girl could have doubted your sincerity. That's a girl whose world-model is too rigid. She would have made a lousy future partner.

I'm not trying to devalue her. Even the crazy girls I mentioned I still have compassion for (now that the shit is in the past) and I still have fond memories of one of them. She's sensitive and I'm sure wonderful in so many ways but you are not the right guy for her. You're too good for her. That's right. She needs to know what real goodness is like so that she can value it. And the only way she can value it is by losing it. Which she has now done. Now her path includes other guys who will give her different types of shit before she starts to realise maybe things weren't so bad with you. Doesn't matter if she bad mouthes you to her gay bff or whatever, men can't be trusted, wadda wadda. She has her own journey. Which probably means another guy who is less risky but less complete whom she will eventually dump or another guy who will treat her like shit if she hasn't learned her lesson from the paddel player. (btw , what the hell is paddel?) What, so you made a small slip up and suddenly that's it. You are the devil incarnate? Lol. What to do you think is in store for the next guy in her life who fucks up in a minor way. We all fuck up. The only question is, is the fuck up a deal breaker or not? In your case, no way. In my opinion. In her opinion, yes. So you might be kicking yourself saying 'how could i have been so stupid'. Right. And what about further down the line when you are a couple and then you do something else? Maybe you're married? Maybe you have kids together? The good news is that crazy tends to show itself early. It can't help itself. You have been saved. She has her own path to follow, as do we all.

You're doing fine. You'll get over it. You already know that. Don't try and get her back. She's not worth it. She doesn't deserve you. You'll find a much better girl and then you'll laugh you even thought of her as the one. I won't even tell you to move on. You'll do it when you are good and ready. Posts like this are part of the way you heal.

good luck

 

[Devilicious]

Thank you so much for your response. The way you write really showed that you understand, because I felt very paced and led by what and how you wrote.

In fact, I would even aver that the breakup has heightened the intensity of the relationship as you perceive it in your heart-mind.

Oh yes.

These are all symbolic elements which are attaching you to the relationship as you see it.

Agreed

But it doesn't matter. You only wanted good things for her and you. She doesn't care. This girl is fucked. (I hope you will forgive my bluntness. I'm not trying to dis a girl you feel so much about. And I've fallen for girls who are fucked myself.) You dodged a bullet. This girl was a time bomb waiting to explode. She did explode. Fortunately before things progressed even further when it could have done a hell of a lot more damage. You got a surface wound, not one that hit a vital organ.

This is hitting me more and more. How someone who can throw away something like this, even if in future it wouldn't have been same extreme, the tendencies would still be there and make anyone suffer. For sure.

Also, this is also a lesson on operational security. Lock that shit down.

A legitimate strong learning and one of the main things that stood out to me when reading your response. Really resonated with me.

This means she no longer trusts you but you didn't lie and didn't hesitate in coming clean. I get that she is sensitive in this area because of previous history but you've done everything to reassure her that this is not the same and no normal girl could have doubted your sincerity. That's a girl whose world-model is too rigid. She would have made a lousy future partner.

Yes the fact that she dealt with it this way, rigidly, just really means a world of pain in future, even if it would be over small things.

She needs to know what real goodness is like so that she can value it. And the only way she can value it is by losing it. Which she has now done. Now her path includes other guys who will give her different types of shit before she starts to realise maybe things weren't so bad with you. Doesn't matter if she bad mouthes you to her gay bff or whatever, men can't be trusted, wadda wadda. She has her own journey. Which probably means another guy who is less risky but less complete whom she will eventually dump or another guy who will treat her like shit if she hasn't learned her lesson from the paddel player.

This is the second part which really resonated with me, specifically the "Another guy who is less risky but less complete"...

Also I meant Pickleball, here it is called Paddel.

The good news is that crazy tends to show itself early. It can't help itself. You have been saved. She has her own path to follow, as do we all.

This is good to know. And I suppose I experienced a part of it now. And in this sense, it's a good thing.

It feels surprisingly difficult to accept actually, because is this feeling of "I never really knew her..." which is hurtful in its own right somehow.

So all the "I dodged a bullet, I'm better off" thoughts, which I in this sense know, just come with a bittersweet hurt as well.

You're doing fine. You'll get over it. You already know that. Don't try and get her back. She's not worth it. She doesn't deserve you. You'll find a much better girl and then you'll laugh you even thought of her as the one. I won't even tell you to move on. You'll do it when you are good and ready. Posts like this are part of the way you heal.

good luck

Thank you!!!


Overall I also have some more learnings that I made, obviously the entire past week I have been thinking and feeling about nothing else, but am getting already in better headspace. I know it will pass. And some of best words I heard, really stuck with me.

That no matter what the outcome is, hope that it is the best outcome for you.


Also, yesterday Skippy and me did a role reversal and felt about things from her perspective. And then you can (just barely) follow along with her getting mad due to past triggers, and then I send my first message.

And then her response is to cut things off.

Spoiler: Her text again

I appreciate your message and I accept your apologies, but this is something that I will not tolerate, it’s something that i don’t want for myself
This is also something that you don’t do to people that you like

And then cut things definitely.

Spoiler: Last Text

What matters is transparency and trus, love will never justify everything I wish you all the best NAME

Which is where it is impossible to follow the role reversal and understand it. It is just sooooooo extreme. The behavior is akin to a girl cheating to us, or slapping us in public or something, where no matter what she says or pleads we'd just have the SAME EXACT response of, "This is not something I tolerate. Wish you the best". And stick to it.

But that is so extreme... how can this be.

The answer is, "she's not fully healthy," and I get that. Just that she also had super strong green flags like being extremely close to her mom and family... long term close friends... so how can this still be? I just feel confused and blindsided by this.

Oh well.

Will post more learnings later.

 

[Atlas IV]

@the player of games is on point again with his response.

The answer is, "she's not fully healthy," and I get that. Just that she also had super strong green flags like being extremely close to her mom and family... long term close friends... so how can this still be? I just feel confused and blindsided by this.

Just offering empathy here, because I know exactly what you are talking about. I also met a girl who had all the "green flags" and seemed like a perfect match with me for chemistry, except for this one area of psychosis where she took one insignificant thing I did (which a normal girl would not think twice about) and blew it way out of proportion, as if I'd really done something terrible.

I spent a long time trying to figure it out, but I never did fully understand it. My only conclusion is that it was a manifestation of some deep unresolved trauma.

You mentioned that she was dealing with some mental health issues which she never really opened up about? Perhaps there was an iceberg of unresolved trauma there that you never saw because she was very adept at hiding it. That's something you'll never know, but seems likely the only explanation for her behavior.

 

[POB]

I've dealt with some girls that have deep trauma (yes, I'm talking about r@pe and domestic abuse).
The best you can do is be as caring and loving as possible while ALSO keeping a healthy distance from their issues.

Most of them will never get over it, especially the ones that develop a combative spirit (that me vs the world way of life...they usually get involved with animal rights, become veggies/vegan, fight a lot with their close family, get addicted to fitness/combat sports...you get the gist).

Others will turn extremely submissive, and will try to please you all the way to extremes (my main girl now is like that...she had a near death experience with an ex who blew up on her after he caught a guy's message on her phone).

Do not give in to your inner white knight.
I repeat: do not give in to your inner white knight!
You are not equipped to deal with that shit.
This is where a good mental health professional should step in and take care of it for her.
If she refuses, she get stuck as a low-end FB and you move on with your life.

 

[Chase]

@Devilicious,

What I'd be very curious to know, @Chase is that she also has signs of having good attachment style: Is extremely close to mom, really close to her dad and brother, has super close friends she's had forever, since a kid and also school, has shown she does lots for them. In spite of this, she can be codependent? As in have non-healthy attachment style? Just that she wasn't showing it so easily towards me, took a while; and doesn't easily trust people too. I just assumed it was "good soul put through bad stuff and healing in way she can, even if extreme" . But can also be 100% me talking in her defense, as per post-breakup protocol it seems.

Codependency isn't an attachment style. They're different things.

As far as attachment styles go, they're often not 100%. The better tests I have seen online give you a pie chart: N% avoidant, N% disorganized, N% secure, etc. I had a girlfriend close with her family who tested as 50% secure, 25% disorganized, 25% avoidant, IIRC. She'd had a few unceremonious breakups with boyfriends she left shell-shocked, and likely would have done the same to me except... I don't yield the frame (nothing flummoxes women more and diverts them from breakup confidence than them insisting to you that you're wrong and you just "not getting it", refusing to admit being wrong, shrugging off their frames, etc.)

Just that she also had super strong green flags like being extremely close to her mom and family... long term close friends... so how can this still be?

Always remember:

When you mix green + red you get brown.

And be careful not to go too deep trying to analyze what she is saying at a superficial level.

It will lead you down the garden path.

I 100% guarantee you that had you held frame when she challenged you on the photo, she never would have broken up with you.

(but she would probably be annoying for a while, pestering you repeatedly trying to see if you "got it yet" how taking a photo of her was the "wrong thing to do", with you maintaining a respectful but unbending frame: "I won't take pictures of you if you want, but all that means is less beauty in my phone and in my heart", etc. -- HER: "You can take pictures of me if you want, that is FINE, I just don't want you doing it when I am ASLEEP and NAKED!" YOU: "As I said, I'll respect your wishes. Still, it is sad" HER: "Do you get how it is different though?" YOU: "I get that you see it as different. And that is all that matters" HER: "I want to know if YOU see how it's different!" YOU: "If you want my opinion, there is no difference between a clothed photo of you while awake and a naked one of you when asleep; both are mementos of a woman I love, and now I'm being punished for it" etc. I have had these kinds of conversations with women repeatedly, where it is clear the only real goal of the woman is to bring you into her frame. But the harder she works to try to convince you, the more invested she gets. You don't have to do anything, just don't bend frame)

Anyway -- it's not actually the photo that disgusted her. It was the frame loss when she challenged you on the photo.

Girls like this have no mercy for men who deal with them too reasonably/compassionately, it is sad to say!

Chase

P.S. Helpful reminder for arguments: accepting the other's frame is submission. You can do this in the workplace, etc. "I screwed up boss. I should not have done that." Your male boss will respect your submission over the intractability of another employee of his who refuses to own mistakes, and will favor you for promotion. But if you do it with women, they lose respect for you. This is true of all women, but amplified for women who have issues. You only "own" mistakes in rational conversation after the drama has passed.

 

[Atlas IV]

@Devilicious,



Codependency isn't an attachment style. They're different things.

As far as attachment styles go, they're often not 100%. The better tests I have seen online give you a pie chart: N% avoidant, N% disorganized, N% secure, etc. I had a girlfriend close with her family who tested as 50% secure, 25% disorganized, 25% avoidant, IIRC. She'd had a few unceremonious breakups with boyfriends she left shell-shocked, and likely would have done the same to me except... I don't yield the frame (nothing flummoxes women more and diverts them from breakup confidence than them insisting to you that you're wrong and you just "not getting it", refusing to admit being wrong, shrugging off their frames, etc.)



Always remember:

When you mix green + red you get brown.

And be careful not to go too deep trying to analyze what she is saying at a superficial level.

It will lead you down the garden path.

I 100% guarantee you that had you held frame when she challenged you on the photo, she never would have broken up with you.

(but she would probably be annoying for a while, pestering you repeatedly trying to see if you "got it yet" how taking a photo of her was the "wrong thing to do", with you maintaining a respectful but unbending frame: "I won't take pictures of you if you want, but all that means is less beauty in my phone and in my heart", etc. -- HER: "You can take pictures of me if you want, that is FINE, I just don't want you doing it when I am ASLEEP and NAKED!" YOU: "As I said, I'll respect your wishes. Still, it is sad" HER: "Do you get how it is different though?" YOU: "I get that you see it as different. And that is all that matters" HER: "I want to know if YOU see how it's different!" YOU: "If you want my opinion, there is no difference between a clothed photo of you while awake and a naked one of you when asleep; both are mementos of a woman I love, and now I'm being punished for it" etc. I have had these kinds of conversations with women repeatedly, where it is clear the only real goal of the woman is to bring you into her frame. But the harder she works to try to convince you, the more invested she gets. You don't have to do anything, just don't bend frame)

Anyway -- it's not actually the photo that disgusted her. It was the frame loss when she challenged you on the photo.

Girls like this have no mercy for men who deal with them too reasonably/compassionately, it is sad to say!

Chase

P.S. Helpful reminder for arguments: accepting the other's frame is submission. You can do this in the workplace, etc. "I screwed up boss. I should not have done that." Your male boss will respect your submission over the intractability of another employee of his who refuses to own mistakes, and will favor you for promotion. But if you do it with women, they lose respect for you. This is true of all women, but amplified for women who have issues. You only "own" mistakes in rational conversation after the drama has passed.

Wow, some real valuable insights right there.

sometimes I think I understand frame control, and then I read something that makes me see how it goes even deeper.

it's not just a tool of seduction, it's what underpins your entire relationship with women. I feel like almost every major problem I've had in relationships can be traced back to some failure in frame control. It's a lifelong pursuit honing this skill.

 

[Bismarck]

Getting her to bed and managing a relationship with her are two different skill sets.

So, to distil the wisdom being shared here, Dev had three paths:

Path one: he took photos of her naked while she slept without her consent, but he kept them to himself forever, just as he would have done if he had asked for her consent, and locked them in this secret "hidden" vault so she wouldn't see them

Path two: he asked for her consent and got nothing, so he would never have had any nudes of her to pleasure himself with or as mementos of a sexy Portuguese blonde (these are a rare breed, btw)

Path three: she caught him red-handed like she did because he hadn't hidden his nudes which he'd taken without her consent, but he held frame

According to Chase, in all outcomes, Dev would have kept the relationship with this admittedly not entirely psychologically healthy, if sexually attractive, female.