help with Post-Mortem -> we have friendzone situation

[throw]

Hello Gentlemen,

I have troubles to figure it out where I messed up (actually, still messing up, after girl described below I messed up another date), I would really appreciate your help and if I am taking into consideration correct things.

to the point ->
Date n.1
matched on tinder, she is 2 years older then me (30), taking care of herself, looking classy -> went on date to nice bar -> she was friendly and flirty (she knows she looks cute) -> she asked me about stuff like astrology and it seems I am under lucky star, strong man with ambitions! (heh) -> while she was checking my stars, I moved and sit next to her -> later tried to physically escalate -> she let me play with her hair, hands, touched her cheeks and neck -> she asked me about my previous relationship (why it ended) ->continued with talk about traveling +escalation -> it was horrible weather outside and I did not feel like she will go to my place/her place, we were in bar alone, so I tried go for a kiss -> she refused (not very kindly)...however, I reacted with smile, mood more or less same like before, I don't think it went awkward but yeah, noted, wrong timing, place and assumption on my side.

Mood was cool, we finished dessert and I just tried again (genius..) if she would like to go for another bottle to my place.
You are right, she didn't
After few minutes I called uber to her place, in car we flirted(just verbally) but she told me I am too straight forward and if I want I can ask her next time to go somewhere to bar or restaurant (red flag? was she using me? I don't want to think that way)

In front of the doors she was very careful to not give me opportunity to kiss so she gave me her hand -> I take it, bring her closer to me but kissed her on hand and then on cheek and told her If I like something I am going for it so she can't be mad on me. She smiled, told me we stay in touch and went home

Date n.2
same girl, I waited 2 days and call her to ask her out for a dinner date(I pick restaurant she mentioned she liked, but I told her about place we would go after she agreed she would go (dinner date, horrible idea, I read articles.. I don't know why I did, I felt like after bar date another one wouldn't make it, she wouldn't come over to my place, so I went with restaurant date -> my intention was to slower down and not look like horny guy)
Date was, boring, I think she felt I put her on pedestal ( I ordered vine I remembered she liked in a restaurant she mentioned she liked..i told her how I liked her dress and eyes...lots of compliments...ah-> noted) , she was complimenting me how beautiful soul I have (nice!) but..no tension, 0 physical escalation .. my plan was to go from there to a bar (much more intimate) but..she did not wanted and again, same situation like first time -> uber -> to her place -> in front of the door when I went for a kiss, she told me she want to take it slowly...heh, I knew it.
Told her it's ok but I don't see a reason for us to keep meeting since I dont want you (her) to chase resp. pressure into uncomfortable situation where she needs to dodge my kisses and I want to be with someone who feel same attraction like me. (with nice voice and smile, touching her cheeks and hair, no blaming)
Said goodnight, after 10 minus she texted me to thank for beautiful evening and that she is looking forward to see me again. I did not respond. 2 days later she called me (I was in different country) to ask me how am I doing and when I am coming back.

I think I was maybe to available in this call , I gave her another compliment (she "what are you doing" -> me "Except calling with beautiful little blond girl?"...egh)

Date n.3
After I came back, I called her (Tuesday) to schedule a date (walk in a park and then vine..that restaurant was really expensive and i felt like she felt too comfy with me so I tried more causal date), she said yes for Sunday but told me why not on Friday or Saturday (she was proposing earlier dates, she was available, I was getting optimistic...) I insisted on Sunday even if I said to her that I am busy only on Friday, Saturday just maybe, so let's agree on Sunday which we both 100% can. (sorry if I am describing boring stuff but maybe I made mistake here to be too available?)

On Saturday she is calling me if I would go on party with her and her girlfriends, and if I have any friend who would joined us.
-> I told her I will check (I dont have any wing man..) -> she called later and I told her all guys are busy or in relationship but "I will handle you girls alone" +
> She agreed with vine Sunday but she declined Saturday party and me being alone with them (I read article about not going on party dates but again, I was thinking I am smarter then you and maybe I will get some pre selection points from her girlfriends and honestly, she caught me with that invitation off-guard)

So anyway, we met on Sunday, in park we went directly to vine, atmosphere was again unsexy like in restaurant (even when I sit next to her) , so I offered to gofor a walk to a romantic place near to vine bar. She was ok with it in bar but when we were getting near to it (it is 10 minute walk MAX) she get really upset and that she want to go to another bar or to walk her home. She obviously did not want to give me opportunity for romantic setup resp. me kissing her.
During that walk she get upset about one nick name which I gave her and she used it as a way to not go to that romantic place. I somehow get her into nice intimate bar.

We went to a bar, I was escalating as much as possible (I knew it was over but ..lets try), she let me again to touch her face, hair, hands (from time to time she offered them to me), later I kissed her on a lips but she was not kissing back (before, in front of her doors she was turning her head while refusing so..WINNING!)
Then we talked about our opinions about marriage, kids, how many etc..than about books, she started to snuggling with me I kissed her nick, bite her ear, tried to kissed her lips but she refused again...called uber and same scenario like date number 2, except now instead of saying she wants it slowly she told me she want me in her life as a friend
I told her it was nice to meet her and went home.
After 20 minutes I received long text that she is hoping I will keep her in my life as a friend, that I am really wonderful guy etc. I did not respond.

Sorry for long post, horrible word salad and maybe lot of unnecessary info but I am really confused with what I did wrong and with my approach to Post-Mortem. Because, even after I finished this post, I do not know if I was too available for her, or if I lost her on first date with my straight forward approach and then she just had nothing to do so she went on dates with guy who she don't find attractive but is kind and non threat.
attainable issues? But which one? I would say I was too attainable for her but ...maybe she saw that I am doing alright, living happily (she mentioned that multiple times like she likes my optimism), asked her to come to my place on first date so she maybe don't want to be in her 30s with guy like this? No idea gentlemen, but this sounds too good haha.

Or she just dont find me attractive but..hm. I don't know.

 

[Alpha13SC]

So you made a lot of mistakes, I can make a breakdown of the full process(in my view), but I want to sleep now so I would say just one thing: Ramp up the alphaness.

How do you expect her to come with you if you didn't create the desire? Where s the teasing? Where s the challenge for her? What did she do to gain your approval so much? Why going slower? There s a difference between showing desperation and showing that you re a dominant man, comfortable with your sexuality.

And most importantly, where s your strong frame? Her getting upset and leave? Ok, fine. Date ended if somebody s throwing an ultimatum like that. In order to have the girl, you must be willing to not have her. Of course, you can do some more calibrated moves, and handle this test better, addressing the underlying problem, but the basics are the same.

Alpha13SC

 

[mist]

1. Go learn about framing. She grabbed the frame so much it's not even funny. You gave her so much power without any thought or balancing it out later on.

2. Learn how to use parting shots and leave doors open. Worth a shot...a parting shot with instructions on how and what she can do if and when she comes back and brief unemotional clarity on why you are going right now. If it's social circle just drop it. Add her to the long game if you still retain interest in her imo...

3. Go look into lover frames, SOT (seduction oriented topics), provider frames.

4. Learn methods today maneuver around, past, with resistance. Resistance is not rejection. She doesn't know you. She's working with what you present and her own biases, preferences, and anchors. (Please watch the PDA. It's not to be fooled around with. An invite to an isolation location is 10x better and more effective at closing out than PDA just for the sake of PDA.)

5. Keep posting your L's. It's not fun. I dislike it quite a bit, but I'm still learning from the L's I've posted and ones I've just written for myself...tough on the ego if you attach everything to your esteem, but if you lean into a more skill acquisition and mastery oriented mindset you'll chill out and better yet...have something to work on that'll make you both feel and actually better.

Props for writing this man. Learned some stuff from it.

Chin up. Props for the learning experience and do what you have to do regarding the girl. If keeping the bridge open will drop your state, cause you to chase, etc delete and burn. Your life who gives af.

Also on another note she seems to either be holding you as an orbiter. Attainability? idk. Using you for attention or connection to your circle? idk. Maybe she just wants attention? idk.

Whatever it is I believe your good to meet other girls. She didn't take your arms and legs then curse you to no pussy forever. She just didn't do what you would've liked. Buck up champ.

6. Although you can always be more attractive don't get too fixated on the male idea of attraction. So don't cop out and just say "I'm not attractive." Actually lean in and break it down.

That's why we're here right? To become skilled seducers

 

[ulrich]

There are several little mistakes but I think it would make a good point to list the big ones. In my opinion those are:

1) First date, you didn’t set the lover frame. You should have done some sexy talk, gambits, kino, innuendo, crazy stories… anything to frame yourself like a lover material and not a boyfriend/friend.
This is specially true if she is older (she has had experience with aggressive men) and if you got her from Tinder (there’s a part of her who is considering you for a ONS).

2) Trying to kiss her in public place. Too much of an ask if she hasn’t moved with you.
Better save it for when you have isolated her.

At this point is going bad but it can be salvaged with a good second date.
Unfortunately:

3) Dinner date at second date. This has several problems. The biggest one is that instead of moving forward to something more intimate, (like walk in the park, cozy cafe, escape room, drinks at your place…) you basically repeated the previous date at a more boring setting.
Here you missed a big escalation window and cemented a bad precedent.

Everything else following that date is just crumbling down based on bad precedents.

Actually I would have gone to the party with her friends just to have other setting and adding new references of you in her mind. Maybe trying to get some preselection because, at that point, the ship was following a crash course.

Hope this helps you with future dates.
Older women are always trickier… don’t get too sad, has this been a sweet inexperienced 22 years old, your mistakes would have been forgiven and you would still be in game.

 

[throw]

So you made a lot of mistakes, I can make a breakdown of the full process(in my view), but I want to sleep now so I would say just one thing: Ramp up the alphaness.

Thanks! Looking forward to it!

How do you expect her to come with you if you didn't create the desire? Where s the teasing? Where s the challenge for her? What did she do to gain your approval so much? Why going slower? There s a difference between showing desperation and showing that you re a dominant man, comfortable with your sexuality.

And most importantly, where s your strong frame? Her getting upset and leave? Ok, fine. Date ended if somebody s throwing an ultimatum like that. In order to have the girl, you must be willing to not have her. Of course, you can do some more calibrated moves, and handle this test better, addressing the underlying problem, but the basics are the same.

To be honest, not to be smart ass, but I was aware I was loosing some frame here (the pieces which left, hah) but in my eyes it was lose-lose situation, if I would go home, sure, I would still have pieces of that frame resp. pride or I could try to make her go with me.
Obviously it did not work, but (and I mean it sincerely) do you think she would behave differently If I would left? (hard to tell I know, you probably meant it as a matter of principle)
But yeah, the rest makes perfect sense, I realized the lack of sex talk just now. (overall in my dates, not only her). Do you have any suggestion for specific article about that?
Actually, I did not put sex talks since I was not feeling she would reciprocate (that's why I put that statement about attractiveness) .
I forgot to always assume attraction (too many screwed up dates in a row, and even If date was successfully ended with sex, she later out of blue texted me early in the morning she can't meet with me anymore and blocked me everywhere, again I do not know how to determine if I was too attainable or too little)
But I guess, when you do not know your attainability level, is probably low

1. Go learn about framing. She grabbed the frame so much it's not even funny. You gave her so much power without any thought or balancing it out later on.

Can you please point out where she grab it and...what should I do differently?

2. Learn how to use parting shots and leave doors open. Worth a shot...a parting shot with instructions on how and what she can do if and when she comes back and brief unemotional clarity on why you are going right now. If it's social circle just drop it. Add her to the long game if you still retain interest in her imo...

Thanks for idea! I was not aware about parting shots at all! Gonna send one today.(she texted me how she want to stay in my life as a friend just few minutes after date, so I guess 4 days are cool, tomorrow is friday...). Or do you suggest to wait?

3. Go look into lover frames, SOT (seduction oriented topics), provider frames.

4. Learn methods today maneuver around, past, with resistance. Resistance is not rejection. She doesn't know you. She's working with what you present and her own biases, preferences, and anchors. (Please watch the PDA. It's not to be fooled around with. An invite to an isolation location is 10x better and more effective at closing out than PDA just for the sake of PDA.)

bookmarked

5. Keep posting your L's. It's not fun. I dislike it quite a bit, but I'm still learning from the L's I've posted and ones I've just written for myself...tough on the ego if you attach everything to your esteem, but if you lean into a more skill acquisition and mastery oriented mindset you'll chill out and better yet...have something to work on that'll make you both feel and actually better.

Props for writing this man. Learned some stuff from it.

hah, yeah, writing is great for filtering thoughts, the whole situation with her makes better sense to me than like 2 days ago

Chin up. Props for the learning experience and do what you have to do regarding the girl. If keeping the bridge open will drop your state, cause you to chase, etc delete and burn. Your life who gives af.

Also on another note she seems to either be holding you as an orbiter. Attainability? idk. Using you for attention or connection to your circle? idk. Maybe she just wants attention? idk.

Whatever it is I believe your good to meet other girls. She didn't take your arms and legs then curse you to no pussy forever. She just didn't do what you would've liked. Buck up champ.

6. Although you can always be more attractive don't get too fixated on the male idea of attraction. So don't cop out and just say "I'm not attractive." Actually lean in and break it down.

That's why we're here right? To become skilled seducers

Cheers!

You will see definitely more L's here from me ahaha (even maybe from today's date)

2) Trying to kiss her in public place. Too much of an ask if she hasn’t moved with you.
Better save it for when you have isolated her.

Any specific tip/article please to move her?

Actually I would have gone to the party with her friends just to have other setting and adding new references of you in her mind. Maybe trying to get some preselection because, at that point, the ship was following a crash course.

I would go but unfortunately I do not have any wingman/friends, and when I told her I will handle all of them (her and her girlfriends) she politely declined (on sunday she told me they did not go anywhere that night)

 

[ulrich]

Any specific tip/article please to move her?

Tactics Tuesdays: Move Girls

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Tactics Tuesdays: How and When to Change Venues on a Date or Pickup

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I would go but unfortunately I do not have any wingman/friends, and when I told her I will handle all of them (her and her girlfriends) she politely declined (on sunday she told me they did not go anywhere that night)

Well, nothing to do in that scenario, I guess

 

[throw]

2. Learn how to use parting shots and leave doors open. Worth a shot...a parting shot with instructions on how and what she can do if and when she comes back and brief unemotional clarity on why you are going right now. If it's social circle just drop it. Add her to the long game if you still retain interest in her imo...

Just an update -> i sent parting shot yesterday:
-> text about how I appreciate her, her beauty and companion but I can't be in friendship, I am looking for relationship with sex, where we cannot get enough one of each other etc., then I wrote I like her but I do not know what she is looking for and she is not offering me what I want.

-> she seen immediately, replied in cca hour that "she agree and wouldn't write it better Mr Scorpio in Mars" (ach..astrology) and then that I see beauty in her because I am beautiful. Heh.
It's done. Friendzone max.
Thanks anyway, useful technique, and I feel better then ignoring her.

Yesterday I was on date, we end up in my bed with other girl.
Not pretty as girl described in this threat. I was sexual almost from start. I think this was my mistake with 30yo. But I really did not feel she would reciprocate with sex talk with me (thats why I did not assumed attraction so strongly like e.g. yesterday). I should work on calibration? I have really shitty feeling it was because of my lack of attractiveness (again, don't want to be doomer) , but then it doesn't make sense she went on 3 dates with me.

 

[ulrich]

I was sexual almost from start. I think this was my mistake with 30yo. But I really did not feel she would reciprocate with sex talk with me (thats why I did not assumed attraction so strongly like e.g. yesterday). I should work on calibration? I have really shitty feeling it was because of my lack of attractiveness (again, don't want to be doomer) , but then it doesn't make sense she went on 3 dates with me.

30+ women don’t make sense a lot of the times.

It’s kinda hard, if you think about… she is still young, yet her best years are past… she is still fertile but her biological clock is ticking… if she wants a family, deadline is coming close… and most likely a lot of her friends are already married so she is feeling left out.
You will find that 30+ women are less patient, more demanding and less forgiving.

Add the fact that there is a certain stigma from using apps (“there’s only sex starved and players in there”).

So, they’re in a hurry and feeling behind.

I think your calibration is OK. What you need is expand your toolbox:

1) If sex talk was too much at that moment, what other subtler techs can you use to progressively make her horny? (sexual stories, routines, gambits, games with touch…)

2) If you feel a pregnant pause, what other options you have beside trying to kiss her? (move her, change locations, just stare silently gazing…)

3) What tech can you use if you need to reverse a bad precedent? (crazy sex story, take her to a sex shop, you flaking on a date, have a Netflix & chill as second date…)

 

[TomInHo]

Sorry for long post, horrible word salad and maybe lot of unnecessary info but I am really confused with what I did wrong and with my approach to Post-Mortem. Because, even after I finished this post, I do not know if I was too available for her, or if I lost her on first date with my straight forward approach and then she just had nothing to do so she went on dates with guy who she don't find attractive but is kind and non threat.
attainable issues? But which one? I would say I was too attainable for her but ...maybe she saw that I am doing alright, living happily (she mentioned that multiple times like she likes my optimism), asked her to come to my place on first date so she maybe don't want to be in her 30s with guy like this? No idea gentlemen, but this sounds too good haha.

Or she just dont find me attractive but..hm. I don't know.

This is a great field report man. I honestly wouldn't beat yourself up too much because you did the best that you could during the situation and were able to get her out on 3 dates at least

But I want to point out some things that you could have done, from my perspective, to improve your chances of closing this woman

1. DOWNPLAY PROVIDER FRAMES

Dealing with older women (+28 years) can be tricky at times because they have loads of experience with men. And usually, at this age they are very good at compartmentalizing men into groups (lover/provider).

So this may sound very counterintuitive, but it's better to downplay your long term potential as a provider to increase your chances of sleeping with older women fast... Some good ways to do this are

Provider Disqualifiers

• Pitching the first meet straight to your house (Then pivoting to a public location if she disagrees)
• Going to a cheap place for the date... avoid overly fancy places or dinner dates. (Think cheap dive bar, park, beach)
• Not dressing too nice for the date...(think cool casual, not stylishly dapper)
• Showing up a little later on the date than her
• Splitting the bill
• Avoiding topics like career
• Avoid talking about things that make you seem like man with resources
• Covertly hinting that you have commitment issues... (example would be saying how you have a hard time staying in one location and love exploring... a.k.a be unstable)

Now you maybe thinking... But wouldn't she get mad if I do things like this? And the answer is Yes & No

Yes she won't be happy that you're not behaving like a good provider slave, but this will actually give you room to make use of.....

2. UPPING LOVER FRAMES

When you disqualify yourself as a provider, you are going to be absolutely useless to her unless you can demonstrate through your actions that you'll be a great fuck

Means you need to up the lover by setting sexual frames in your interaction..

• Talking about emotionally charged topics
• Building sexual tension
• Cracking sex jokes
• Telling sexual stories
• Sex talk
• Using physical escalation

From reading your report, you mostly focused on physical escalation but I will get to that in a minute on how it could have been done better

But there's another key point you were lacking in


3. FRAME CONTROL

There was a massive problem that started on date 1 that you may have missed.... Can you guess what it was?

Date n.1
matched on tinder, she is 2 years older then me (30), taking care of herself, looking classy -> went on date to nice bar -> she was friendly and flirty (she knows she looks cute) -> she asked me about stuff like astrology and it seems I am under lucky star, strong man with ambitions! (heh) -> while she was checking my stars, I moved and sit next to her -> later tried to physically escalate -> she let me play with her hair, hands, touched her cheeks and neck -> she asked me about my previous relationship (why it ended) ->continued with talk about traveling +escalation -> it was horrible weather outside and I did not feel like she will go to my place/her place, we were in bar alone, so I tried go for a kiss -> she refused (not very kindly)...however, I reacted with smile, mood more or less same like before, I don't think it went awkward but yeah, noted, wrong timing, place and assumption on my side.

Mood was cool, we finished dessert and I just tried again (genius..) if she would like to go for another bottle to my place.
You are right, she didn't
After few minutes I called uber to her place, in car we flirted(just verbally) but she told me I am too straight forward and if I want I can ask her next time to go somewhere to bar or restaurant (red flag? was she using me? I don't want to think that way)

In front of the doors she was very careful to not give me opportunity to kiss so she gave me her hand -> I take it, bring her closer to me but kissed her on hand and then on cheek and told her If I like something I am going for it so she can't be mad on me. She smiled, told me we stay in touch and went home

You let her control the flow of the entire interaction

- She drilled you with questions left and right probing you for how you could fit into her life... (as a provider )
- She got you invested in the conversation, qualified you on the answers that she approved of to keep you engaged
- Kept you on the hook with mixed signals on her interest level.
- Kept her investment low while keeping yours high

This is actually an amazing lesson for you and a masterclass on how to control the frame. So all you need to do is take note of what she did to you and start doing that to other girls.

- Drill them with questions left and right probing on how they could fit into your life... (as a fun lover )
- Get them invested in the conversation and qualify them on their answers to make them feel special and paint them as potentially good lovers
- Keep them on the hook with mixed signals to keep their interest and compliance high
- Keep your investment low while keeping theirs as high as possible

Women are the best teachers when it comes to seduction I swear

4. LACK OF SEXUAL TENSION

IMO before you can build sexual tension, you first need to own the frame. Because women don't feel sexual chemistry with men that are subservient to them. This is one of the reasons why your physical escalation had no effect on her arousal, while the other was a lack of intrigue

One thing women love more than reading sappy romance novels, is figuring a man out. And in your case you were too much of an open book. There was no mystery, no challenge and no need to impress you

This is one of the reasons why being vague and using fractionated escalation works so well. Because when you are too direct with your intentions it can destroy tension. But when you open up to her slowly and show bursts of controlled desire, it can drive women wild.

So because you didn't control the frame, and telegraphed too much desire without balancing it out with neutral or negative interest she lost the feeling of wanting to chase you... hence the lack of compliance with your kiss and isolation attempts


WRAP - UP
To summarize, you lost this woman because you did not paint yourself like a dominant lover that could give her the challenge of trying to win him over

 

[throw]

This is a great field report man. I honestly wouldn't beat yourself up too much because you did the best that you could during the situation and were able to get her out on 3 dates at least

But I want to point out some things that you could have done, from my perspective, to improve your chances of closing this woman

1. DOWNPLAY PROVIDER FRAMES

Dealing with older women (+28 years) can be tricky at times because they have loads of experience with men. And usually, at this age they are very good at compartmentalizing men into groups (lover/provider).

So this may sound very counterintuitive, but it's better to downplay your long term potential as a provider to increase your chances of sleeping with older women fast... Some good ways to do this are

Provider Disqualifiers

• Pitching the first meet straight to your house (Then pivoting to a public location if she disagrees)
• Going to a cheap place for the date... avoid overly fancy places or dinner dates. (Think cheap dive bar, park, beach)
• Not dressing too nice for the date...(think cool casual, not stylishly dapper)
• Showing up a little later on the date than her
• Splitting the bill

ahahahaha I did everything opposite like a good provider boy I am !

• Avoiding topics like career
• Avoid talking about things that make you seem like man with resources
• Covertly hinting that you have commitment issues... (example would be saying how you have a hard time staying in one location and love exploring... a.k.a be unstable)

Now you maybe thinking... But wouldn't she get mad if I do things like this? And the answer is Yes & No

Yes she won't be happy that you're not behaving like a good provider slave, but this will actually give you room to make use of.....

I tried this but..heh. She probably saw through it. Great points, I am taking it to my heart.
Honestly, back in my head I was aware about them, you kinda feel that vibe is not like with others, that it's not clicking it... but I was deceived by her, that she is taking it very seriously (honestly she was pretty intimidating, even for most of service staff ahah..cool girl).

More exactly, I Wanted to be deceived

3. FRAME CONTROL

There was a massive problem that started on date 1 that you may have missed.... Can you guess what it was?



You let her control the flow of the entire interaction

You nailed it. And it wasn't just this girl. Every single one, which I see as a perspective, I behave like..pussy.
When I see they behaving emphatically, nicely, I go full into disney mode. Then I am under impression they are mistaking my goodness for weakness, which, can be true (who knows, most people thinks they are good) but at the end of the day, you either score or no.
That's why I also mixed into my post some attainability proposition.
I have similar problem with friendships too.
Sometimes I was lucky, and my mistakes weren't punished (that's why I wrote that nonsense about looks resp. attractiveness, that was my explanation for her friendzoning me)

- She drilled you with questions left and right probing you for how you could fit into her life... (as a provider )
- She got you invested in the conversation, qualified you on the answers that she approved of to keep you engaged
- Kept you on the hook with mixed signals on her interest level.
- Kept her investment low while keeping yours high

This is actually an amazing lesson for you and a masterclass on how to control the frame. So all you need to do is take note of what she did to you and start doing that to other girls.

- Drill them with questions left and right probing on how they could fit into your life... (as a fun lover )
- Get them invested in the conversation and qualify them on their answers to make them feel special and paint them as potentially good lovers
- Keep them on the hook with mixed signals to keep their interest and compliance high
- Keep your investment low while keeping theirs as high as possible

Women are the best teachers when it comes to seduction I swear

4. LACK OF SEXUAL TENSION

IMO before you can build sexual tension, you first need to own the frame. Because women don't feel sexual chemistry with men that are subservient to them. This is one of the reasons why your physical escalation had no effect on her arousal, while the other was a lack of intrigue

makes sense, great tips!

One thing women love more than reading sappy romance novels, is figuring a man out. And in your case you were too much of an open book. There was no mystery, no challenge and no need to impress you

This is one of the reasons why being vague and using fractionated escalation works so well. Because when you are too direct with your intentions it can destroy tension. But when you open up to her slowly and show bursts of controlled desire, it can drive women wild.

So because you didn't control the frame, and telegraphed too much desire without balancing it out with neutral or negative interest she lost the feeling of wanting to chase you... hence the lack of compliance with your kiss and isolation attempts


WRAP - UP
To summarize, you lost this woman because you did not paint yourself like a dominant lover that could give her the challenge of trying to win him over

Thank you! Have some testing in front of me, hopefully this week will do reports

 

[Just a Man]

You will find that 30+ women are less patient, more demanding and less forgiving.

Add the fact that there is a certain stigma from using apps (“there’s only sex starved and players in there”).

So, they’re in a hurry and feeling behind.

This is very true in my experience: "less patient, more demanding and less forgiving" exactly describes what I noticed in recent months with two girls, one 30 and one 35 (I'm 40s and recently re-starting approaching). It was especially true of the girl of 35 - to the point of being downright ruthless. Blindsided me. Quite an education.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

Hello Gentlemen,

I have troubles to figure it out where I messed up (actually, still messing up, after girl described below I messed up another date), I would really appreciate your help and if I am taking into consideration correct things.

to the point ->
Date n.1
matched on tinder,

Expectations are out of line with the reality of internet dates. An internet date is a blind date, and it's rare in the normie world for there to be "instant attraction".

she is 2 years older then me (30),

This age gap is usually an issue for most women. It's tiny in the grand scheme of things, but generally speaking she wants the guy to be her age at the most, but better if he's 2-4 years older (once the chick gets out of college of course).

taking care of herself, looking classy -> went on date to nice bar -> she was friendly and flirty (she knows she looks cute) -> she asked me about stuff like astrology and it seems I am under lucky star, strong man with ambitions! (heh) ->

She's trying to get information from you, which is a good sign. But your evaluation of her needs to go beyond her looking cute. My general take on these dynamics is that she's reacting to me, not the other way around. So if I'm in the hot seat, I prefer to spin the conversation to put her in it. That's a style decision, but if she's asking questions and you're answering - you are gonna say something that she doesn't like - whether or not you can detect it.

while she was checking my stars, I moved and sit next to her -> later tried to physically escalate -> she let me play with her hair, hands, touched her cheeks and neck -> s

I don't know the timeline here, but showing intentional physical affection this fast is not the move in the States. It might work better in Brazil and other warm cultures, but not here.

he asked me about my previous relationship (why it ended)

This is her building up some red flags on your part. This is one of the issues of letting the girl dictate the conversation.
If you're honest with the chick on why you're relationship ended, they often draw the worst conclusion - typically something they cannot articulate.

She left you - bad
You left her - bad
You both moved apart (emotionally or physically) - bad

Flipping this question on her - "why is she still single?" - can also go wrong as well.

->continued with talk about traveling +escalation -> it was horrible weather outside and I did not feel like she will go to my place/her place

Well part of you is starting to get it, but one of the things you need to ask yourself is why was she not ready? You weren't getting the right signals from her.

we were in bar alone, so I tried go for a kiss -> she refused (not very kindly)...

Yeah, rookie mistake. Don't kiss in public if you're not getting signals. This whole date seems like you were a horn dog from the very beginning. Like you haven't had sex before.

however, I reacted with smile, mood more or less same like before, I don't think it went awkward but yeah, noted, wrong timing, place and assumption on my side.

Mood was cool, we finished dessert and I just tried again (genius..) if she would like to go for another bottle to my place.
You are right, she didn't
After few minutes I called uber to her place, in car we flirted(just verbally) but she told me I am too straight forward and if I want I can ask her next time to go somewhere to bar or restaurant (red flag? was she using me? I don't want to think that way)

The idea that an attractive woman will spend her time getting ready, getting to the venue, just to milk you out of a free glass of wine or two is something you're going to need to drop from your mental framework.

Very few women are that mercenary. You'll see it from time to time, a chick that goes out with a guy for a pizza or a 4 star meal, but it's not as common as you might think.

The best meal in the world is often destroyed by poor company

In front of the doors she was very careful to not give me opportunity to kiss so she gave me her hand -> I take it, bring her closer to me but kissed her on hand and then on cheek and told her If I like something I am going for it so she can't be mad on me. She smiled, told me we stay in touch and went home

This is going from bad to horrible. To be honest, I don't see much PUA here. It's like you've glanced at a few articles but never watched a program or read a book on the topic.

No one can teach you the entirety of PUA by responding to a date post.

Date n.2
same girl, I waited 2 days and call her to ask her out for a dinner date(I pick restaurant she mentioned she liked, but I told her about place we would go after she agreed she would go (dinner date, horrible idea, I read articles.. I don't know why I did, I felt like after bar date another one wouldn't make it, she wouldn't come over to my place, so I went with restaurant date -> my intention was to slower down and not look like horny guy)

Going to dinner is not a bad move, per se. But trying to make her happy before you hook up with her by taking her to her favorite restaurant or an expensive restaurant is not the PUA way.

We used to call this supplication. Nowadays I think they call it being beta or "simping".

Date was, boring, I think she felt I put her on pedestal ( I ordered vine I remembered she liked in a restaurant she mentioned she liked..i told her how I liked her dress and eyes...lots of compliments...ah-> noted) , she was complimenting me how beautiful soul I have (nice!) but..no tension, 0 physical escalation .. my plan was to go from there to a bar (much more intimate) but..she did not wanted and again, same situation like first time -> uber -> to her place -> in front of the door when I went for a kiss, she told me she want to take it slowly...heh, I knew it.

Yeah Bro, this is starting to get painful to read.

PUA/Seduction/Game is built ON TOP OF existing social skills. It's not a replacement for social skills. At 28, you should know better.

What I'm noticing here is violation of the "1st law". Chick needs to be attracted to you, before you reward her with physical affection.

To paraphrase, Attraction, then trust, then seduction.

In your case, you're not really doing ANYTHING, other than going straight to seduction.

Told her it's ok but I don't see a reason for us to keep meeting since I dont want you (her) to chase resp. pressure into uncomfortable situation where she needs to dodge my kisses and I want to be with someone who feel same attraction like me. (with nice voice and smile, touching her cheeks and hair, no blaming)
Said goodnight, after 10 minus she texted me to thank for beautiful evening and that she is looking forward to see me again. I did not respond. 2 days later she called me (I was in different country) to ask me how am I doing and when I am coming back.

Sounds like some PUA technology, but without the foundation and framework.

I think I was maybe to available in this call , I gave her another compliment (she "what are you doing" -> me "Except calling with beautiful little blond girl?"...egh)

Date n.3
After I came back, I called her (Tuesday) to schedule a date (walk in a park and then vine..that restaurant was really expensive and i felt like she felt too comfy with me so I tried more causal date), she said yes for Sunday but told me why not on Friday or Saturday (she was proposing earlier dates, she was available, I was getting optimistic...) I insisted on Sunday even if I said to her that I am busy only on Friday, Saturday just maybe, so let's agree on Sunday which we both 100% can. (sorry if I am describing boring stuff but maybe I made mistake here to be too available?)

Yes you're too available, but wanting to see you earlier in the day/not on the prime date nights is a signal in and of itself.

On Saturday she is calling me if I would go on party with her and her girlfriends, and if I have any friend who would joined us.
-> I told her I will check (I dont have any wing man..) -> she called later and I told her all guys are busy or in relationship but "I will handle you girls alone" +
> She agreed with vine Sunday but she declined Saturday party and me being alone with them (I read article about not going on party dates but again, I was thinking I am smarter then you and maybe I will get some pre selection points from her girlfriends and honestly, she caught me with that invitation off-guard)

It seems like she likes you, but I'm starting to think if you went a long, it'd be to buy their drinks.

So anyway, we met on Sunday, in park we went directly to vine, atmosphere was again unsexy like in restaurant (even when I sit next to her) , so I offered to gofor a walk to a romantic place near to vine bar. She was ok with it in bar but when we were getting near to it (it is 10 minute walk MAX) she get really upset and that she want to go to another bar or to walk her home. She obviously did not want to give me opportunity for romantic setup resp. me kissing her.
During that walk she get upset about one nick name which I gave her and she used it as a way to not go to that romantic place. I somehow get her into nice intimate bar.

Yup, more of the same.

We went to a bar, I was escalating as much as possible (I knew it was over but ..lets try), she let me again to touch her face, hair, hands (from time to time she offered them to me), later I kissed her on a lips but she was not kissing back (before, in front of her doors she was turning her head while refusing so..WINNING!)

Make it stop.

Then we talked about our opinions about marriage, kids, how many etc..than about books, she started to snuggling with me I kissed her nick, bite her ear, tried to kissed her lips but she refused again...called uber and same scenario like date number 2, except now instead of saying she wants it slowly she told me she want me in her life as a friend
I told her it was nice to meet her and went home.
After 20 minutes I received long text that she is hoping I will keep her in my life as a friend, that I am really wonderful guy etc. I did not respond.

Yeah, she wasn't trying to hurt you, but there was simply no attraction. Your overall social un-awareness is the main thing that messed this up.

Sorry for long post, horrible word salad and maybe lot of unnecessary info but I am really confused with what I did wrong and with my approach to Post-Mortem. Because, even after I finished this post, I do not know if I was too available for her, or if I lost her on first date with my straight forward approach and then she just had nothing to do so she went on dates with guy who she don't find attractive but is kind and non threat.
attainable issues? But which one? I would say I was too attainable for her but ...maybe she saw that I am doing alright, living happily (she mentioned that multiple times like she likes my optimism), asked her to come to my place on first date so she maybe don't want to be in her 30s with guy like this? No idea gentlemen, but this sounds too good haha.

Or she just dont find me attractive but..hm. I don't know.

She found you physically attractive enough to go on 3 dates with, but your poor behavior killed that attraction.

Whole thing reads like you're on the spectrum too be honest.

WIA

 

[throw]

Expectations are out of line with the reality of internet dates. An internet date is a blind date, and it's rare in the normie world for there to be "instant attraction".

you are saying I shouldn't expect attraction? Or how I suppose to understand that?
I am aware (now ) that I was rushing physical esc. but I didn't get this statement

She's trying to get information from you, which is a good sign. But your evaluation of her needs to go beyond her looking cute. My general take on these dynamics is that she's reacting to me, not the other way around. So if I'm in the hot seat, I prefer to spin the conversation to put her in it. That's a style decision, but if she's asking questions and you're answering - you are gonna say something that she doesn't like - whether or not you can detect it.

I have troubles with this, I used to have tendency to be the one who is asking questions but I felt like I do interview or making it about her.
But you are definitely right, on last date she mentioned that I am quiet type.

Flipping this question on her - "why is she still single?" - can also go wrong as well.

they are going to ask it anyway, I read articles how I should make it fun or not to respond, what do you think?

This is going from bad to horrible. To be honest, I don't see much PUA here. It's like you've glanced at a few articles but never watched a program or read a book on the topic.

that's correct. Which one would you suggest?

No one can teach you the entirety of PUA by responding to a date post.
Going to dinner is not a bad move, per se. But trying to make her happy before you hook up with her by taking her to her favorite restaurant or an expensive restaurant is not the PUA way.

We used to call this supplication. Nowadays I think they call it being beta or "simping".

oh c'mon.

Yeah Bro, this is starting to get painful to read.

PUA/Seduction/Game is built ON TOP OF existing social skills. It's not a replacement for social skills. At 28, you should know better.

What I'm noticing here is violation of the "1st law". Chick needs to be attracted to you, before you reward her with physical affection.

To paraphrase, Attraction, then trust, then seduction.

In your case, you're not really doing ANYTHING, other than going straight to seduction.

nailed it. I also feel like I messed up "in between" frequently. In this case, I was too available, before (when I knew even less about seduction) I was (or I suppose) too cold (not always in a sexy way, but very, overly opinionated). Now have difficulties to tune it.

But definitely more into "putting into pedestal" territory.

Sounds like some PUA technology, but without the foundation and framework.



Yes you're too available, but wanting to see you earlier in the day/not on the prime date nights is a signal in and of itself.

you probably read it incorrectly or my English sucks, but the call about party was about "party with her 2 girlfriends who are into guys of my nationality" and by earlier dates I meant (Friday or Saturday, so earlier than on Sunday which was date I proposed, not earlier in a sense of day time... afternoon or lunch)

It seems like she likes you, but I'm starting to think if you went a long, it'd be to buy their drinks.

hm..I offered to go alone with them, she told me in that case lets go on Sunday just two of us (on Sunday she told me that they didn't go out, to be honest, I believe her, I know/saw they were traveling between the countries that day and were on whole day walking tour and long hours in train, I was surprised she called and felt like going out)

Make it stop.

hahhahah

Yeah, she wasn't trying to hurt you, but there was simply no attraction. Your overall social un-awareness is the main thing that messed this up.

She found you physically attractive enough to go on 3 dates with, but your poor behavior killed that attraction.

Whole thing reads like you're on the spectrum too be honest.

hahah, I have more bangers, YOU gonna love them

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

you are saying I shouldn't expect attraction? Or how I suppose to understand that?
I am aware (now ) that I was rushing physical esc. but I didn't get this statement

In the real world/offline, meeting a chick conveys a lot of information that she cannot get from a photo and some text messages.

How you move, How you smell, the sound of your voice, your accent, how random strangers look you up and down, do you have a limp, how are you reacting to the environment around you?

A lot of this is at the primal level.

All of that nonverbal stuff (body language and social dynamics) weighs heavier than the words that come out of your mouth and the logical meaning therein.

So girls (and guys) to a large extent are going on dates with people they would not want to talk to in real life. This slowly changing via socialization and expectations - but the primal instincts about what is fuckable are not changing fast enough.

I have troubles with this, I used to have tendency to be the one who is asking questions but I felt like I do interview or making it about her.
But you are definitely right, on last date she mentioned that I am quiet type.

they are going to ask it anyway, I read articles how I should make it fun or not to respond, what do you think?

Girlschase is legitimately the best resource for articles about pulling chicks - but what you need is a primer on socialization.

The mistakes you're making sound more like a 18 year old guy rather than a 28 year old guy.

In terms of "making it fun" - A lot of that is contextual.

You're on a date at a bar with the intent of taking her to your place.
You went to a nice restaurant, spent some money, with the intent of taking her to your place.

You've got to ask yourself, what would make those pretty mundane dates FUN for HER?

She's been on dates. And the norm is compliments, exchange of biographical information, and at the end the guy tries to kiss/tries to take her home.

You're not operating out of that paradigm. You're not adding anything to the typical encounter that is going to "tip the scales".
There are social expectations at your age that you clearly are not aware of.

that's correct. Which one would you suggest?

oh c'mon.

nailed it. I also feel like I messed up "in between" frequently. In this case, I was too available, before (when I knew even less about seduction) I was (or I suppose) too cold (not always in a sexy way, but very, overly opinionated). Now have difficulties to tune it.

It's deeper than availability. You're not at the stage where you can give her the gift of missing you. She's maybe 3 out of 10 interested in you, not 11 out of 10.

But definitely more into "putting into pedestal" territory.

you probably read it incorrectly or my English sucks, but the call about party was about "party with her 2 girlfriends who are into guys of my nationality" and by earlier dates I meant (Friday or Saturday, so earlier than on Sunday which was date I proposed, not earlier in a sense of day time... afternoon or lunch)

Sure. Understood. Moving on. Though it does sound like she's trying to pawn you off.

hm..I offered to go alone with them, she told me in that case lets go on Sunday just two of us (on Sunday she told me that they didn't go out, to be honest, I believe her, I know/saw they were traveling between the countries that day and were on whole day walking tour and long hours in train, I was surprised she called and felt like going out)

hahhahah

hahah, I have more bangers, YOU gonna love them

She kept giving you chances, so I wonder about 1) the culture, 2) her options, 3) you must be one great looking dude - because an average guy would not get these options at your age.

WIA

 

[throw]

You're not operating out of that paradigm. You're not adding anything to the typical encounter that is going to "tip the scales".
There are social expectations at your age that you clearly are not aware of.

I am. But I just wasn't able to flirt with her. I didn't feel attraction(multiple times). Sometimes from start, from first glance (I don't lie on tinder..itstrue I dont have there height in profile but..cmon) Now I think makes sense, it's hard to flirt without frame. I lost it too soon.
And when I think when I was successful last few years, I rarely add something sexy or fun on dates. They were just less attractive I guess and felt that I have bigger value then them.
I am trying to not make dates interview...but heh.

It's deeper than availability. You're not at the stage where you can give her the gift of missing you. She's maybe 3 out of 10 interested in you, not 11 out of 10.

this is not clear to me

Sure. Understood. Moving on. Though it does sound like she's trying to pawn you off.

you mean like buying them drinks?
I even agreed I would go out with them alone, then she said let's cancel it and meet tomorrow. So this scenario doesn't make sense to me, or I just don't understand how you mean it
She and her 2 girlfriends wanted to go out with me + my friends. Since I didn't have a wing man, I offered I would go just alone with them, but she cancelled it in this scenario.
On third date we briefly spoke about it, they came back to city and were tired from road and didn't went anywhere, and it was spontaneous idea of her girlfriend to go out with me and my friends. If I had wing-man, she said, they would maybe get motivated. Who knows. I didn't ask her about it.

She kept giving you chances, so I wonder about 1) the culture, 2) her options, 3) you must be one great looking dude - because an average guy would not get these options at your age.

WIA

hahah
1)not really, big city, central eu...not sure what you mean, if I am from some traditional country and small village?
2)blond russian girl, blue eyes, slim, I believe she has options..and she has definitely past beautiful girl
3) hahah I am beautiful but..cmon. I maybe undersold me/dates here, I was trying to get as much criticism what I could, so I focused on what I messed up. But no, I am not great looking guy.
I really believe like guys said... frame and from there... like you said, I really wasn't able to make anything sexual, romantic..or even interesting!
I didn't "tip the scales".
I met her yesterday, she initiated greetings (I sincerely did not see her, +headphones+ full hands of groceries and angry, she was also busy with call) and hugging. But this means nothing, this one is lost, shame.

Thanks for advice and sorry for late response.