Honesty Wanted...

[Holmezy]

ok so I really need some advice as I'm starting to hit the brick wall on this one lately and need some guidance fellas.

I work with a girl who has a boyfriend. I really like her and have found out that she likes me from another female colleague that she is close too.
Her relationship of 8 years isn't the best with her bf and definitely has problems even though lately things apparently have been going well I think she has just stayed with him this long as it's easier and she's scared to be alone again (even though he would have me)

We chat on WhatsApp every night pretty much with her messaging me first too so it's not always me!.
We get on well at work too. Flirting seems to mostly come from me in all honesty, but she has definitely flirted with me on many occasions and in many ways either at work or via WhatsApp.

The problem is she talks about her bf at work and she mentions him on WhatsApp to me too where I have just replied with something like..oh yeah him so.. and try to move on and ignore it but she's made it very clear to me tonight that he's not going anywhere soon. This made feel like what is the point anymore? just walk away. Be polite at work but don't give her the time of day because what's the point? I don't seem to have a chance here! But the knowledge that she apparently likes me keeps making me want to not give up.

we have a work night out coming up soon where I was gonna really go for it but now I just feel like just not going and calling it a day in all honesty...if I was to go and see her out knowing that I can't have her that night or going forward I think I would just stress out in all honesty. We are planning on staying in a hotel on this night out too so imagine not having her then either.

what should I do guys? keep pursuing or just call it a day and walk. like i say be polite at work but not give her the time of day

I really would appreciate some advice..

 

[Richard]

Have you done anything to push things beyond "just messaging?"

 

[Holmezy]

Have you done anything to push things beyond "just messaging?"

I've asked her out to lunch at work which she accepted. other than that no. like i say I was hoping the night out may lead to something..

 

[Drck]

For a girl is very convenient to use her boyfriend to her advantage, she can do multiple things when she refers to her BF, for example:

1. She can get rid easily of annoying or less attractive guy(s): "Hey, I got a BF, get lost". The guy has no chance...

2. She can scan for more exciting (Alpha) guy and weed out weaker (Beta) guys for quick lay. Polite and nice guys (Beta) will always give up, they don't have guts to go after a girl that is taken. A guy with Alpha attitude knows the risk, he's got balls to stand up to another guy and take the girl away from him, even if it is just one night

3. She might have a BF yet look around for another long term mate, call him a 'New Guy'. She may give a good chance to this New Guy, yet in the mean time she always refers to her current BF. If the New Guy proves himself as a LT material she will dump the current BF and a ends up with new one. On the other hand, if the new potential BF makes some mistake, she will get rid of him and fall back to her current BF. Many times she may make the New Guy look like a loser, perhaps shift lots of guilt on him - "Hey, I told you many times I got a BF, it's really your fault that you kept going after me". This way she will shift the guilt on the new guy, and remains faithful to the current BF. She may also create a scenario where the New Guy looks like quite needy and with low self-esteem - who is going after a girl that is taken?

I believe that in your situation, you are the 'New Guy' in scenario 3. This scenario sucks many times, you are basically going after a girl that is taken, she is giving you a chance, yet she has all the cards to dump you anytime she feels like to. You can't really dump her because she is taken, but she has two guys to compare to each other, chose the better one, and dump either of them... It's actually quite brilliant strategy from the girl, she will win either way (unless she meets skilled asshole in the game lol)

Anyways, I would recommend that you step it up. Put some little pressure on her, start moving things forward, show her that you want her. Make her decide between you and the other guy. You have to be very gentle though because if you put too much pressure she will bail out and dump you. Don't make it black and white (Hey, you have to chose between me or him), rather push yourself in in the sense "hey, it would be great if you and I could do some exciting things, maybe this weekend". She knows what you mean immediately, and she will start making the decision in her mind...

You know the risk: she may dump you, especially if you push too hard. But there are also great benefits: she may decide for you, and even if not, you will at least find out if she is just toying with you.... You need to start moving things forward though, because if you don't it is virtually guaranteed that she will bail out...

Also, watch for red flags. Once you start pushing forward, she may put her breaks on. She can go cold, she can get very anxious, she can make it seem that you are upsetting her (and you are because she needs to chose), she can even tell you in some way to back off... Be careful because unskilled guys do usually the exact opposite. Keep calm and cool, back off if you have to, but don't chase... You can't chase, very important...

 

[Holmezy]

For a girl is very convenient to use her boyfriend to her advantage, she can do multiple things when she refers to her BF, for example:

1. She can get rid easily of annoying or less attractive guy(s): "Hey, I got a BF, get lost". The guy has no chance...

2. She can scan for more exciting (Alpha) guy and weed out weaker (Beta) guys for quick lay. Polite and nice guys (Beta) will always give up, they don't have guts to go after a girl that is taken. A guy with Alpha attitude knows the risk, he's got balls to stand up to another guy and take the girl away from him, even if it is just one night

3. She might have a BF yet look around for another long term mate, call him a 'New Guy'. She may give a good chance to this New Guy, yet in the mean time she always refers to her current BF. If the New Guy proves himself as a LT material she will dump the current BF and a ends up with new one. On the other hand, if the new potential BF makes some mistake, she will get rid of him and fall back to her current BF. Many times she may make the New Guy look like a loser, perhaps shift lots of guilt on him - "Hey, I told you many times I got a BF, it's really your fault that you kept going after me". This way she will shift the guilt on the new guy, and remains faithful to the current BF. She may also create a scenario where the New Guy looks like quite needy and with low self-esteem - who is going after a girl that is taken?

I believe that in your situation, you are the 'New Guy' in scenario 3. This scenario sucks many times, you are basically going after a girl that is taken, she is giving you a chance, yet she has all the cards to dump you anytime she feels like to. You can't really dump her because she is taken, but she has two guys to compare to each other, chose the better one, and dump either of them... It's actually quite brilliant strategy from the girl, she will win either way (unless she meets skilled asshole in the game lol)

Anyways, I would recommend that you step it up. Put some little pressure on her, start moving things forward, show her that you want her. Make her decide between you and the other guy. You have to be very gentle though because if you put too much pressure she will bail out and dump you. Don't make it black and white (Hey, you have to chose between me or him), rather push yourself in in the sense "hey, it would be great if you and I could do some exciting things, maybe this weekend". She knows what you mean immediately, and she will start making the decision in her mind...

You know the risk: she may dump you, especially if you push too hard. But there are also great benefits: she may decide for you, and even if not, you will at least find out if she is just toying with you.... You need to start moving things forward though, because if you don't it is virtually guaranteed that she will bail out...

Also, watch for red flags. Once you start pushing forward, she may put her breaks on. She can go cold, she can get very anxious, she can make it seem that you are upsetting her (and you are because she needs to chose), she can even tell you in some way to back off... Be careful because unskilled guys do usually the exact opposite. Keep calm and cool, back off if you have to, but don't chase... You can't chase, very important...

wow! cheers dude. I really appreciate that reply.

surely by now she knows I want her though?

last night after messaging each other I kinda felt like she's just chatting with me when it suits her in all honesty, like she is bored and has nothing else better to do. Picking me up and putting me down kind of feeling which is not where I want to be so this morning she messaged me saying:

"Morning! Sorry, I got into bed, my head hit the pillow and I was out cold lol."(she fell asleep on me) I then replied with:

I know when I'm just the stop gap...( I was proper pissed off when I sent this and just felt I had a roght to express how I feeling)

she then replied with.."I often fall asleep in seconds. It's not that I just stopped replying because I felt like it. I was knackered lol."

which I replied.
Not talking about you falling asleep.......Don't worry about it...
better get back to Geoff..(Her bf)

she then replied.."Erm, ok... Not sure I get what the issue is here to be honest. I think you're under the impression that I only message when I'm bored, which isn't the case. I obviously can't message when I'm busy, which I am quite often..."

I never messaged back...the fact she flattered herself pissed me off even more to be honest.

i refuse to fall in the friend zone and I'm tired of giving her all the hints that I want her without much back from her which makes me feel like I'm doing all the work. ok yeah she does message me and like i say it's her first sometime not me but I'm just not getting enough from her here.

in regards to try and take things up a notch this night out coming up I said to her do you fancy driving down to the venue with in my car which she replied.....well I was gonna see if Geoff could maybe take a few of us??!....no thanks ffs....

if she doesn't know I want her after all this time I've
put in etc then she must be stupid.... but i'm absolutely certain she knows I like her..

have I not done enough already without trying any further?

 

[Michal]

Hello Holmezy,

If she has been with the guy for 8 years it is not like with an old rusty car that you would buy a new one to replace it. Keep in mind the investment on your part and her part. The car analogy is there because as people grow, they want different things. So you better be different than her boyfriend. Just because she messages you first from time to time does not mean she wants you inside of her. And vice verca. However, my concer right now is the way you think about this. So I want to ask some questions.
How should she know you want her? What have you been doing?
Why would she want to be with you and leave her boyfriend, what boyfriend or lover qualities does she value more about you compared to her boyfriend?
How often are you physical with her, how often do you two touch each other?

 

[Holmezy]

Hello Holmezy,

If she has been with the guy for 8 years it is not like with an old rusty car that you would buy a new one to replace it. Keep in mind the investment on your part and her part. The car analogy is there because as people grow, they want different things. So you better be different than her boyfriend. Just because she messages you first from time to time does not mean she wants you inside of her. And vice verca. However, my concer right now is the way you think about this. So I want to ask some questions.
How should she know you want her? What have you been doing?
Why would she want to be with you and leave her boyfriend, what boyfriend or lover qualities does she value more about you compared to her boyfriend?
How often are you physical with her, how often do you two touch each other?

Hi Michal. Thanks for reaching to help!

First of all yes, the fact I'm so different to her bf.
There was a time where all she did was complain about him to me.He is 42 and she is 32.
The bloke doesn't even know how to use a washing machine! He's been let go of by numerous jobs due to how miserable he always is. We are talking about a guy here that acts like an old man miserable man and gives her no sense of desire.

I've come along and without sounding big headed injected a lot of life and vibrancy to the workplace making her even think about her own life and what she wants to do saying she thinks she is having a midlife crises...when really I've opened up her eyes to live life more and have fun etc.
I've made that a head turning thing for her I suppose. so to answer your question on am I better? you dam right I am. in fact...i know I am. so many people say to me that know her bf that they don't know why she is with him and that stranger things have happened. Again though I'm not gonna be her pick me and put me down. she either wants to cone forth and engage or she doesn't right?

They had a chat a few weeks back about where there relationship is going and it was just one big disaster in the fact he buried his head. although lately apparently he has been better and showing improvements on actually being a man even thigh he is pathetic and I know he will slip up again. She lives with him in his house and has 20% tied up etc so I also think she is scared of losing that even though her happiness is more important!

in regards to the other questions:


How should she know you want her? What have you been doing?

I have made it VERY clear via flirting that I like her. if she hasn't worked it out I would be very surprised.

Why would she want to be with you and leave her boyfriend, what boyfriend or lover qualities does she value more about you compared to her boyfriend?

think I've answered this above.

How often are you physical with her, how often do you two touch each other?

This is a great question and the answer is zero. we have never touched each other and that's because I'm not sure how it would go down in all honesty. we are in a workplace not a bar and so touching would be kinda strange..if you can suggest how I can have physical contact in a workplace then great. but i'm also worried I suppose of her shrugging me off or something.

I have to go in to work tomorrow and walk past this girls desk and I'm still non the doser on how to approach things going forward so they work in my favour to be honest. as you can read from the WhatsApp messages this morning I've laid it out very clearly that I'm not gonna be her pick me up and down and refuse to enter the friend zone even thigh she has tried denying that this is what she is doing to me..

 

[Drck]

last night after messaging each other I kinda felt like she's just chatting with me when it suits her in all honesty, like she is bored and has nothing else better to do

>>>> That is (unfortunately) a great observation. We live in society that is not a good environment for many men as far as dating is considered. A girl that is good looking has too many options on her plate, she can chose from many many guys... She might be bored in her current relationship and thus she could be exploring around, which means that you might have a chance... but the question is, how high is your chance...? She might be playing around with say 5 other guys, you just don't know... She simply has abundance of guys available to her, and unlike us guys, she doesn't have to move a finger to get the Abundance Mentality...


"if she doesn't know I want her after all this time I've put in etc then she must be stupid.... but i'm absolutely certain she knows I like her.."

>>>> Oh, she knows, don't worry about that. Again, she has lots of choices, she has current BF, so she is not really in a hurry so to speak. I agree with Michael, as he mentioned, 8 years relationship is not easy to overcome either. She may even break up with the guy and then come back to him after some time, it happens. Many times relationships are not just black and white... She NEEDS to be investing into you, otherwise there is just no way...


"i refuse to fall in the friend zone and I'm tired of giving her all the hints that I want her without much back from her which makes me feel like I'm doing all the work."

>>>> Very good. A girl that really wants you will be clear about it. She will make herself available to you, not just on the phone but in real life. She may be comparing her current BF to you (and possibly other guys), she will go with the best option available. So if she is serious, you got to be pulling her in, not really pushing her into new relationship. You got to present yourself as a guy with High Value... High Value guy cannot be impatient, he cannot be needy, he should not get negative about the situation he's in (her relationship with her BF)... She is just a girl that he really likes and wants, so he shows her that he is interested - and she can either take it or leave it...

Which basically means you got to push her into decision (gently). There are words and there are actions. Words don't mean anything in girl's world, they can be erased by swipe of a finger, she will deny and forget anything that was ever spoken... So forget sweet words, it is actions we have to observe...

You need a patience, that is your way to play the game. She's been with her BF long time, she will not drop him over the weekend for you. It may happen but realistically, it is unlikely...

I would start pushing her into decision (again, gently). Suggest that you want to do things together, just you and her. This shouldn't be direct though, rather just sort of testing waters: "Hey, it would be great if you and I went to XYZ this weekend. What do you think about that?". Let her answer whatever she wants to answer, even if she suggests her BF to go with, just ignore it, don't dig into it, let it go... Or you can try something else, e.g. see how she imagines her near future and with whom - rather than name, ask what kind of guys she's looking for (ideally she'll describes your characteristics, lol. And if she asks you the same question, just describe her without saying her name). Or something like "Hey, if you met a new, really interesting guy today, what would you two want to do together, where would you want to go with him?" I wouldn't expect much from the first push, just let it go... Let her talk, let her imagine things...

Then try second time couple days later: "Hey, there is a new movie coming out, wanna go Saturday?". Now she will know that you are pushing, you are being persistent for action... If she is interested in you she should start sweating. Now she knows she has to start making decisions. Ideally she would go (by herself, of course), but again, she will probably bail out in some way. Ok, no big deal, there are other movies. Don't react, let it go... Even pull back a little "oh, I forgot, I got to do XYZ anyway"... But she should be definitely thinking by now: You and her alone, doing things...

Another try, couple days later, now you are becoming more intensive. She has to get closer to more definite choice, either start doing things with you - or remove herself from your life as a potential mate... "Hey, I was really thinking about my life in the past couple of days, you know, I'm looking for great relationship, I really want to do things with my girl. Movies, travel... Me and her would do ABC, I don't know where to start"... Let her reply, let her say what she thinks. By now she should have a pretty good picture of you and her, either you two being together, or not...

Those are just examples, it's not really the words, it's the attitude... She should feel that you want her, but you will leave if she doesn't start doing things for you... She will let you know if she wants you as a friend only, or something more... I don't know how long you know her, I would give it 3-4 weeks, maybe 3,4 or 5 gentle pushes... Don't get mad, don't get negative, don't get discouraged... Even a single girl needs time to make up her mind about you... Remember, at this time your only card to play is Patience, you lose your patience - you lose your game...

In the best scenario, she will go out with you, do things and so forth. That is great, she is really interested...

In worse case scenario, she will go cold, stop texting you, stop communicating with you... It's tough to go through it, but don't react. Remain cool and laid back, remain positive, don't chase. Don't contact her. She may even get angry at you, remove you from social media and so forth. Which is fine, because you know that she had feelings for you... If you react she will only solidify her rejection, she will move you to a category of pussies. If you don't react, she may come back in the future, decided to give it a good chance because she knows she can't fuck with you...

Now you are behaving like a man: Hey, either come with me and do things with me, or stay where you at, but I'm moving on... You made a solid decision, she has to follow your decision... There is no Friend Zone, reject any offers for friendship. Show her that you are willing to leave her forever if she doesn't follow... Girls hate to be rejected, they can't stand it...

Also know that many girls are rather bright as far as relationships. They can think couple steps ahead, like in chess. For example, the above scenario has 3 simple steps. She may however block you at first attempt because she already knows what are you aiming for... Don't react, just remain persistent, cool and laid back...

 

[Holmezy]

so I got an update on all this. Let's just say it's been a long day at the office guys!

I think you might agree it time to bail...here me out and let me know what you think I should do next..

Basically today emails between us with me playing it very Alpha male like and cool ended up with her actually confirming that she knows I like her and her conforming one more time that like she said her BF of 8 years no matter how crap he or useless (and that everyone knows this) is going nowhere and that she wants to try and make it work. if it doesn't work then at least she knows she did everything to make it work. All the usual bla bla bla. Then came the usual crap emails like please don't hate me please don't think I'm a cow. I just simply emailed back....you have come across loud and clear. Here's to another 8 years with your bf I suppose....(meaning this is a sarcastic way)

so it looks like my ship has sailed..
I still think deep down she does like me as i said in an original post I have been told this by another colleague close to her and that her rejection has not come about from looks or "I just see you as a friend" I also still know I'm better than him in every department but you know what....that isn't enough when she's brainwashed on an 8 year old BF who is scared to throw it away and be happy long term. A lesson learnt I suppose... at least I will always have comfort knowing he is way behind me in every compartment. He may have won the battle but I win the war..

so what now guys? The way I think I should play this is just back away to EVERYTHING. Keep is strictly hello and goodbye in the day and thats at a push.No WhatsApp, no emailing...nothing.

By detaching myself from her even in the workplace I surely put myself in a position where I don't get dumped in to the friend zone and also leave that seed in the back of her head come the future if she really does drop him I suppose..

what strange is I don't feel upset but pity on her. I really do mean that. This girl has spent so long with someone so stale that she knows nothing else, she's repeatedly told me that she doesn't want that life but here she is staying in the comfort zone of misery with him...such a shame but hey ho.

so if love to get your thoughts on all this guys. secondly..thinking a head lets say (and i mean thos loosely as I can't see it happeming) they have a huge fight and they finally finish and she's comes running to me or flirting woth me to then wanna be with me (after she's got over the rebound stage) how would o play this? I just want to be ultra prepared if that arises...

look forward to your comments. You have no idea how you have helped me so far...