Observations How Much Responsibility Naturals Take vs. PUA's

Mr.Rob

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When I was new to seduction I'd take responsibility for every little thing in the interaction that didn't go just my way.

Say for example if the interaction was weird or awkward I'd take responsibility... "Ah she was awkward because... my vibe/convo/fundamentals/whatever was off."

Or if I went and chatted up a group of girls and they didn't like me I'd take responsibility... "Ah they didn't like my joke" or "I didn't bring enough energy to the group".

There was always that one thing if I only would've done different would have changed the whole situation. And then everything would've changed and I'd get the girl.

I don't think this is necessarily all bad... At least in the beginning of learning everything. When you just start out you suck. So usually if interaction is awkward/weird is probably is because YOU are awkward/weird/unconfident etc.

So taking responsibility for everything helps you figure out what elements ARE in your control and can be improved. Then the next time you encounter that situation you make sure to try something different to get a better outcome. Then after some time and experience you realize what IS in your control and what ISN'T.

However once you start improving and I find it a weak frame to stay in.

For one its low value because every girl you don't get or that doesn't go your way is because YOU still aren't cool/good enough. This of course leads to the all too PUA type of behavior of trying to control every little thing in the interaction to "make" her attracted. To "get" the good reactions that make you feel good.

But naturals don't do this at all. If an interaction doesn't go perfect or was awkward naturals just shrug their shoulders and say "ahh she wasn't as cool as I was hoping she'd be" OR "ah that girl was kind of awkward. Must not be used to guys talking to her." No second guessing. No trying hard to make things go well.

Instead you know your cool with a lot to offer. You know most girls you talk with like you and things go great most of the time. Your enjoying your own vibe and time out and if any one girl isn't on board she probably just wasn't all that good a fit for you to begin with.

You stop trying to "make" things work and just let things naturally happen because your a cool attractive guy that attracts cool attractive people.

Anyway after having taken a 3 year long hiatus from seduction and having just started approaching again this was the most glaring difference I felt right off the bat.

And its a good feeling to have.

So not sure if anyone else has experienced this or maybe is reaching that point themselves but I found it to be a good shift to make.

Curious if anyone thinks similarly or differently

Cheers and keep it pimpin,
-Rob
 

Hue

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Good observation, Robby Bob.

I've definitely noticed the same thing, the more I start to hang around naturals.

It's a matter of how they're framing it to themselves AND how they're framing it to others.

A pick up artist might frame the negative reaction to themselves as their responsibility in their head ("that was a slight faux pas on my part, let me adjust"), yet still move through the interaction, mechanically, as though they don't care (forced shoulder shrug and raising of the eyebrows).

That determination to improve every fault in your game will get you places. Really, that applies to all skills if you enter a deep grind with whatever it is you're doing. I used to be this way with guitar and play until my fingers were in extreme pain, but oh boy did I get better doing those years. :cool:

Yet, if a person believes everything is there fault for things going bad, they might start to run into low self-esteem, because you can't control people, really, and if your self worth is tied to how well you're doing socially or with women, you'd better expect a barrage of blows to it.

Some might start to call it a lack of Inner Game. If you're with a natural and you blame yourself constantly, he'd be more inclined to think that's the case. When I met my first natural to hang out with, I was still cutting my teeth pretty hard in night game. He took me out with some other guys to the club one time and I felt some serious imposter syndrome. His frame was much different and he just shrugged off everything.

Having congruence between those two things (good mechanical game and good inner game) is a great place to be, and I'd say it's what most people are striving for while learning game. Once you start to have REAL confidence in all your interactions, it takes care of some of your mechanical mistakes because you provide a good vibe and exude high value. There's also a sense of outcome independence, which is mostly always beneficial. Only problem is that ALWAYS having that attitude of, "her loss!" might stagger your improvement.

If you can leave your ego aside and be truly honest with yourself, AND be outcome independent (see room for improvement, yet remain detached emotionally), you're in a great place.


Hue
 

ZacAdam

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I throw in for you guys 5th dimensional chess.

Why i argue with Alek Rolstad, (his name is teevster i think).

That she knows that she is framing it so that you land into the friendzone, though she hates it when you do. If you are experienced, you fight this at process level. IF are advanced like what Mr.Rob noted, this is detrimental to your development.

You are a jester, not a King. Or maybe a young king who is reckless, like Thor in jotunheim.

Calling a young man 'Reckless', is the manipulation, the bullshit.


However, if you are outcome independent too much, (internally this is what you must do). Externally, society can't register what the fuck you are doing. Thus throws a curveball into the people you are bringing into your life. In business, this is when you grow your company bigger, and chase money and accept customers randomly because your advertisements are not proper.

So yea, 5th dimensional chess.

Why ordinary men today hate women. and why most advanced guys can't help men today unless they remember who they are. Then they can build that ladder
 

DarkKnight

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This is actually an interesting subject. I have encountered the same with sales, where you blame yourself for the most miniteus details but with experience and plenty of succes you start to disregard difficult girls and sales prospects.

I think a lot has to do with not knowing the rules. The ambiguity which is caused by girls and the rules of seduction can cause a lot of self doubt, but after tons of interactions you start to see where certain lines are at, making everything easier to navigate. Experience and losing too much time at false prospects help to filter out bad leads. This same inexperience can cause you to take more responsibility despite that the other side is basically bullshitting you.

I notice myself getting more impatient as well and much less willing to invest in a certain girl when things don't progress. Only because of experience and noticing patterns. Also because the difference between an interested and uninterested girl is becoming much clearer.

It's really weird how game and sales have influenced my development in each and vice versa.

Also I think a big part of this is: "what if"? It's a bitter pill to swallow that a girl that you really liked could have been yours if you only did x y z. So outcome independence helps a lot, theoretically at least.
 

Hector Papi Castillo

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Mr. Rob,

This is definitely a necessary shift. Spend too much time being technical and you lose sight of the point - to get laid. To be sexual. To "vibe." Form a connection.

That gets lost with my PUA's and they never quite get to the natural's level. They can still lay more girls and have better skill, but they seem to get less enjoyment out of it. For them, it's dominantly an intellectual game. For naturals, it's a feelings game.

However, many naturals suffer from lack of technical game. This is okay if you're doing only pickup and you easily become a 500+ lay count guy by the time you're 25 or 30. But it really hurts your relationship game and most naturals I know kinda struggle with some of the nuances of relationships.

Furthermore, you never get as consistent as a technical PUA/natural hybrid. Which is why after this stage, you go back to extreme technicality.

I remember when we were filming One Date, I was going through one of these phases (you'll have them many times and swing from technical to instinctual, and back and forth).

We were working 19 hour days and listening/talking about ultra-technicalities was exhausting at a certain point. Plus, I'd already spent the past two to three years focusing on technical game so much. I low-key raged haha and went hardcore "instinctual."

Was good...for a time. Pulled a lot of lays. Then I stagnated and I realized I was making basic technical mistakes for the satisfaction of "going with my gut."

Unfortunately, no one usually makes it back to the technical phase. The allure of "man, just FEEL it, ya know?" is too good. It's satisfying to believe/expound this paradigm, and it seems high level to a lot of people who want a magic pill mental model.

This stage of pickup philosophy is 95% of the "red pill" advice out there.

So, yes, go deep into this. Cut down on article/program/video consumption. Always be self-reflective and improve/adapt, but see what happens if you "stop caring" (though you're deluding yourself if you believe you really stopped caring; most natural fall for this mask, too).

Also, start experimenting. Do stuff you never thought you'd do. Pull when you shouldn't pull. Kiss her randomly for no fucking reason.

This is when you find your "style."

Just don't forget that in a couple of years you'll need to hardcore shift back to technicalities if you want to turn your epiphanies into solidified pimpery.

Hector
 

Bacchus

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Letting things happen naturally is just making use of everything you've drilled into unconscious competence.

After you reach a point where you can do something adeptly and effortlessly. . . it feels like a part of who you are. Doesn't matter whether it's straight-forward like your fundamentals and attractive behaviors. Or complex like conversational management, sexual framing or whatever.

The technique/instinct cycle Hector talks about is a very important aspect of the seducer's journey. . . learning phases. A learning phase begins once you become aware of sticking points or holes in your game. And start looking for techniques to help you overcome those obstacles.

Most naturals don't start new learning phases so they're often stuck with a skill-set which is far from complete. They don't reach the hook-point as consistently as they'd like. Perhaps they lose potential conquests to ASD, female-state-control or LMR. Or they struggle with logistical control, relationship problems or whatever. These issues usually get written off with cop-outs like "oh well. . . she wasn't a good fit" to protect the ego.

It's hard to judge someone too harshly for that. . . because starting a new learning phase is tough shit. And whenever you commence a new learning phase you must start at the bottom. In unconscious or conscious incompetence. . . trying to figure out what actually went wrong. Or maybe you know what the issue was. . . but it seems beyond the realm of your control. So you ask questions to get a better understanding of the nuances. Which leads to you trying something completely new in your seductions. This is how we get stronger arsenals and refine our skills as seducers.

You continue working, practicing and adapting what you learn to your infield experiences. Until you can pull it off without even exerting mental effort. Then you can just let your newly-refined instincts. . . guide you towards better results. This is what it means to level up.

The beauty of the seducer's journey is you can always start a new learning phase. There are endless opportunities to level up, to innovate and push the boundaries of what you can bring under your control. And there is always room for improvement. . .
 
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Mr.Rob

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Having congruence between those two things (good mechanical game and good inner game) is a great place to be, and I'd say it's what most people are striving for while learning game. Once you start to have REAL confidence in all your interactions, it takes care of some of your mechanical mistakes because you provide a good vibe and exude high value. There's also a sense of outcome independence, which is mostly always beneficial. Only problem is that ALWAYS having that attitude of, "her loss!" might stagger your improvement.

If you can leave your ego aside and be truly honest with yourself, AND be outcome independent (see room for improvement, yet remain detached emotionally), you're in a great place.
Hueby Dooby,

Yeah man there is definitely a middle ground I think to be achieved where you don't want to become the delusional natural writing stuff off to protect their ego. Its defintely easier to take the high and mighty attitude of "her Loss", especially once you start getting some good success and lays under your belt. But if your not careful and get complacent (as Bacchus and Hector point out) then your shooting yourself in the foot just as much as the guy who stays in "full responsibility" mode.

That gets lost with my PUA's and they never quite get to the natural's level. They can still lay more girls and have better skill, but they seem to get less enjoyment out of it. For them, it's dominantly an intellectual game. For naturals, it's a feelings game.
Interesting point. Yeah definitely more enjoyable if you approach seduction form the side of sharing and creating emotion rather than an intellectual game of chess. What I've always liked about GC is that it teaches the mechanics of what naturals do so you can eventually make that shift.

Unfortunately, no one usually makes it back to the technical phase. The allure of "man, just FEEL it, ya know?" is too good. It's satisfying to believe/expound this paradigm, and it seems high level to a lot of people who want a magic pill mental model.

This stage of pickup philosophy is 95% of the "red pill" advice out there.

So, yes, go deep into this. Cut down on article/program/video consumption. Always be self-reflective and improve/adapt, but see what happens if you "stop caring" (though you're deluding yourself if you believe you really stopped caring; most natural fall for this mask, too).
Interesting that you note these being stages that you should go in and out of, I appreciate the comment there. I was kind of thinking that once you make it to the "natural/autopilot" phase that you'd want to stay there (while still making new improvements) but I see the value in going in and out for growth purposes.

The seduction legends like Casanova, JFK, etc never went through much of a technical phase. Its interesting to think (and quite plausible to imagine) that guys like Chase, yourself, other top writers/contributers are likely the best seducers the world has seen (unless studying pickup/seduction had been recorded once but lost to history 1000's of years ago).

Most naturals don't start new learning phases so they're often stuck with a skill-set which is far from complete. They don't reach the hook-point as consistently as they'd like. Perhaps they lose potential conquests to ASD, female-state-control or LMR. Or they struggle with logistical control, relationship problems or whatever. These issues usually get written off with cop-outs like "oh well. . . she wasn't a good fit" to protect the ego.

It's hard to judge someone too harshly for that. . . because starting a new learning phase is tough shit. And whenever you commence a new learning phase you must start at the bottom. In unconscious or conscious incompetence. . . trying to figure out what actually went wrong. Or maybe you know what the issue was. . . but it seems beyond the realm of your control. So you ask questions to get a better understanding of the nuances. Which leads to you trying something completely new in your seductions. This is how we get stronger arsenals and refine our skills as seducers.
Very true Bacchus. I think that's where the immense value of these forums can be so vital in sharing what innovations and heights are being discovered in real time, and then share discourse. To achieve mastery you must never fall into complacency. Again see my note above on the seducers of today vs. the all time legends.

It is easy to fall into complacency once you reach a certain point of success and that hunger and drive start to falter. I suppose the key here is to stay hungry for the process of continually pushing the boundaries of whats possible (an objective that can never be completed) rather than being hungry to bang X girls, or some other results oriented goal (though good to have in conjunction with the aforementioned).

Good discourse here, appreciate you guys weighing in. Looks like I've got plenty further stages ahead still :cool:
 

Grand Pooba

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I think that you ultimately need to have a balance of both things, as others have already noted. If you swing too far in the technical direction, you just end up with very cold pick ups and fail to form a connection with a girl. On the flip side, for the natural route there are connections to be made and it's easy to "write one off" if there wasn't a connection - but the more you do this, you also realize that most those girls were winnable girls with better technicals.

I think everyone else has already chimed in a lot here so I don't have that much more to add on that note. One more thing I'd like to point out is that the means that PUAs meet women versus the means that Naturals meet women are often quite different. For example, I consider myself trained as a PUA and was an extreme Beta before - so definitely not a natural. My means of meeting women is from street approach Day Game - and this is something Naturals almost never ever do, go talk to random girls on the street and form a connection with them out of thin air, if not more.

Hence, Naturals are more instinctual for sure, but are missing huge chunks of the skillset and opportunity that can only be had from learning technical game.
 

Watts

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Stillness in motion.

In field, nothing is your fault, out of field, everything is.

In field, the goal is to quiet the noise in the conscious mind and try to be able to access as much of your deep reserves of unconscious experience as possible. You're making conscious decisions, but you want to allow as many insights from your unconscious experience that can potentially be triggered by the environment/present situation to "bubble up to the surface" and be available for consideration.

Out of field, you're breaking down every, little, possible, detail from every conceivable angle including all possible unknowns and twisting and turning the situation around to see what are all the other combinations of choices and possible events and down the line consequences, trying to see as far out as possible in the cold logical analytical state (including all sorts of things you could not have possibly controlled, just to get a better possible respond).

To relate to the Naturals vs. PUA's, Naturals by definition just got good by luck, so they are going to keep doing what has worked for them without knowing why, until they either A) retire or B) crash out in a crisis (some life event happens and they can't adapt to new circumstances). At least, that would be the bias from their starting point.

PUA's on the other hand have had to study long and hard just to be "normal" (again, in the extreme definition, geeky, virgin prior etc.), so they are going to scrutinize every aspect of every interaction including in field, and will probably be more prone to "paralysis analysis" and general risk aversion. You'll see this with a lot the PUA lairs, people want 100% concrete proof that everything will work, or they won't be willing to just try new behaviors and stagnate as a result.

I will also add to agree with @Bacchus and connect one step further, both the Natural's unwillingness to get feedback and the PUA's unwillingness to take risk (fear), are part of ego.

As an aside, there is one Natural that should serve as both an example and cautionary tale, Corey Worthington (Cred: YaReally)


Watch this video. Tell me honestly if you think this guy absolutely slayed hot teenage pussy from puberty onward.

And today, he A) Did a bunch of hardcore drugs and is in recovery B) Has neck tattoos C) Works a low wage job and D) Is married to a whale.

In other words he had a "I'm invincible, I can do no wrong, I don't have to listen to what anybody else thinks" attitude (which some might consider Alpha) which worked great... until he tried heroin.
 

Razorjack

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@Mr.Rob et al:

Let me give you guys another perspective.

I found it impossible to find the optimal middle ground by thinking about where I should be in the spectrum between taking responsibility for everything and nothing / feeling it extremes. Also an optimal middle ground is individual.

What helped me was to approach it from a more Zen-like angle:

How do I want it to be? What kind of people/women do I want in my life? What is it that makes me happy?

Once I figured this out, it gave me the focus to develop techniques that took me to where I wanted to be / what I wanted to feel.

Knowing what you want to feel / how you want to feel is what drives the technical development and you keep and adjust the tech that helps and remove the rest.

Note that this is a continuous iterative process, because your goals / life vision / women you want will change over time.
 
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