How to combat a negative frame about sex?

[James D]

Hey guys,

Recently went on a date which I blew up.

Basically, we were walking to an ice cream place and somehow Maslow's hierarchy of needs gets mentioned by the girl.

She was talking about the basic needs.

I had something interesting to add, having studied Maslow quite extensively.

As I responded, I quickly relisted the basic needs before transitioning to my point.

"So, yeah, the basic needs- food, water, shelter, health, sex,..."

She cuts me off immediately and says "Oh, I don't agree. Sex is NOT a basic need. So is dating or relationships. One can do absolutely FINE in life without sex."

I was completely caught off guard, not expecting to have to defend the point that sex is a basic need.

And, this is where I fucked up: I entered a frame war with her that sex is a basic need BUT I entered the frame war without a clear plan how to win it.

We basically ended on the consensus of "we agree to disagree", which is terrible cuz I could feel the vibe shifting already.

Plus, there was a moment where I could feel she had the upper hand in the interaction.

We got our ice creams, went to the park and she kept disgreeing with almost everything I was trying to say.

She pushed for compliance on my side, which I didn't yield to of course.

Anyway, the whole thing felt off and I simply walked her back.

I'm not sure how interested she was.

All I know is that she was responsive to my touch but no other signs.

Any advice on how to have dealt with that statement about sex not being a basic need?

 

[Dragon913]

You studied maslow quite extensively but you got caught off guard in an argument?

Explain your point first, what is the essence of what you believe, explain why you feel like that, your value. Then acknowledge her points ' I understand your view and respect them since everyone is a unique person with diferent experiences which influences their views in life'

Now this mood is a bit serious so move to a fun routine then dhv and so on.

 

[James D]

You studied maslow quite extensively but you got caught off guard in an argument?

Dude legit

Explain your point first, what is the essence of what you believe, explain why you feel like that, your value. Then acknowledge her points ' I understand your view and respect them since everyone is a unique person with diferent experiences which influences their views in life'

Aye thanks sir!

 

[504]

File:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.svg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

(1st tier) sex = instinctual…reproduction, no?

and (3rd tier) sexual intimacy = casual and relationship sex, right?

 

[TheEcho]

She cuts me off immediately and says "Oh, I don't agree. Sex is NOT a basic need. So is dating or relationships. One can do absolutely FINE in life without sex."

"I can totally get why people would think that. It's like being told red is a beautiful, wonderful color, but you can't see it. Imagine the richness that red adds to life, the passion... intrigue... desire... If you haven't "seen" it, it's easy to disregard. Once you experience the fullness of it... it's hard to imagine living without..." *gazes off contemplatively*

 

[Bismarck]

Honestly, I wouldn't waste time trying to troubleshoot this particular set.

If the girl doesn't believe sex is a basic human need, this means she likely has negative views surrounding sex or is LD. Or maybe a virgin.

Not saying you can't smash this type of broad, but it won't be a walk in the park, to put it mildly.

 

[Skills]

Hey guys,

Recently went on a date which I blew up.

Basically, we were walking to an ice cream place and somehow Maslow's hierarchy of needs gets mentioned by the girl.

She was talking about the basic needs.

I had something interesting to add, having studied Maslow quite extensively.

As I responded, I quickly relisted the basic needs before transitioning to my point.

"So, yeah, the basic needs- food, water, shelter, health, sex,..."

She cuts me off immediately and says "Oh, I don't agree. Sex is NOT a basic need. So is dating or relationships. One can do absolutely FINE in life without sex."

I was completely caught off guard, not expecting to have to defend the point that sex is a basic need.

And, this is where I fucked up: I entered a frame war with her that sex is a basic need BUT I entered the frame war without a clear plan how to win it.

We basically ended on the consensus of "we agree to disagree", which is terrible cuz I could feel the vibe shifting already.

Plus, there was a moment where I could feel she had the upper hand in the interaction.

We got our ice creams, went to the park and she kept disgreeing with almost everything I was trying to say.

She pushed for compliance on my side, which I didn't yield to of course.

Anyway, the whole thing felt off and I simply walked her back.

I'm not sure how interested she was.

All I know is that she was responsive to my touch but no other signs.

Any advice on how to have dealt with that statement about sex not being a basic need?

I would have say i understand this, but there is nothing to agree or disagree on is what maslow says, let me show you, pull out google image type maslow needs and show her.. DONE....

but i would have take the opportunity to go into sexual frame and how people see sex and something negative and use for reproduction only.... But how sex is something that makes relationship that much stronger and blah blah blah.... I can write a whole book on the benefits on sex... and then have her go on your frame.... I don't understand how you blew it...But also, this girl may be a total square waste of time... the thing is you don't really know this since you fucked it up... She may have seen you as provider vs a lover but we would never know since you did not address correctly..

 

[HoofHearted]

There's no need to have intellectual debates with the girls you're trying to fuck.

Go for emotional content, not logic content. Experience, not arguments.

 

[StrayDog]

I had something interesting to add, having studied Maslow quite extensively.

As I responded, I quickly relisted the basic needs before transitioning to my point.

man, all the times I have smothered the spark due to my over intellectualizing the convo.

I think this is pretty common with dudes in general. We like to get technical, break things apart, see how they work. Not saying women don't do this to a degree, but when it comes to seduction it is soooo not the vibe.

I have been making it a habit to catch myself when I feel compelled to showcase some sort of philosophical or intellectual knowledge, and instead use the topic to frame the convo in a more emotionally resonate/playful way. Often times when I do this women will kind of chase me for some philosophical perspectives, but quickly get swept up in the more playful/seductive conversational tone of things.

So instead of flexing some academic knowledge, only use the philosophical tone of things to the extent that it supports a greater seductive frame/tone.

For example: Instead of going into my emotionally dry "points" on Maslows theories make it more about my/her personal experiences around the subject.

She brings up Maslow

You: Oh yeah so important to have our needs met. You know that feeling when you realize, that you have everything you could need and you can just let go. If only just for that moment. You can just breath.

Her: Hmm I don't know that I've ever felt that way completely

You: (seductive eye contact) oh, I'm sure you'll have your moment soon enough. Sounds like your working on it

Now she has incentive to talk about HER needs specifically, giving you a sense of her personal emotional reality. As opposed to a more removed intellectual perspective.

 

[MarioTheDom]

Frame wars are lost when they start, because there isn't winning with people that aren't looking to win but just to see the world burning.

Maybe when she is trying to "snatch" the frame that's when you push the boundaries.

Although I suspect this happened before the discussion about Maslow (which of course is asinine because the drive for reproduction brought to us to this day)
The fact that she kept pushing afterwards on having you be a beta nice guy tells me it was the final snatch, you sure there weren't other "tests" that you failed?

who picked up location and time? did you qualify? how did you even got the date?

 

[Will_V]

Hey guys,

Recently went on a date which I blew up.

Basically, we were walking to an ice cream place and somehow Maslow's hierarchy of needs gets mentioned by the girl.

She was talking about the basic needs.

I had something interesting to add, having studied Maslow quite extensively.

As I responded, I quickly relisted the basic needs before transitioning to my point.

"So, yeah, the basic needs- food, water, shelter, health, sex,..."

She cuts me off immediately and says "Oh, I don't agree. Sex is NOT a basic need. So is dating or relationships. One can do absolutely FINE in life without sex."

I was completely caught off guard, not expecting to have to defend the point that sex is a basic need.

And, this is where I fucked up: I entered a frame war with her that sex is a basic need BUT I entered the frame war without a clear plan how to win it.

We basically ended on the consensus of "we agree to disagree", which is terrible cuz I could feel the vibe shifting already.

Plus, there was a moment where I could feel she had the upper hand in the interaction.

We got our ice creams, went to the park and she kept disgreeing with almost everything I was trying to say.

She pushed for compliance on my side, which I didn't yield to of course.

Anyway, the whole thing felt off and I simply walked her back.

I'm not sure how interested she was.

All I know is that she was responsive to my touch but no other signs.

Any advice on how to have dealt with that statement about sex not being a basic need?

You lost the frame when you took her seriously. It's a perfect opportunity for having fun.

I would have said something like
"oh what's the longest you spent without sex?"
<she says whatever>
"But at the end of it I bet you were very horny right? See what I mean"

That doesn't even make sense as an argument, but now she's too busy thinking about being horny and confused about my point to continue arguing with me.

Dates are not exams, it's not about coherent arguments but about creating desire.

 

[Gaturro]

It’s a woke argument. They say this because they probably read it on twitter as an argument against rapists, sex work in general, etc.

I had a girl tell me this and she is a nympho, who never said no anytime I wanted to have sex with her, and whom I fucked like 7 times on the same day.

We entered a small debate while we were on my car, my point was something like: “well yeah, you won’t die without sex like you will die without food/water, but for men this need is stronger than for women, because we have around 37 times more testosterone. If you like sex and sometimes you feel horny, imagine with 37 times more testosterone. That’s why when girls do sports or go to the gym they feel hornier than when they don’t”

(I don’t remember if the testosterone argument is accurate or not, but I did explain to her it increases arousal)

I believe I also said something like “but of course we are not animals, we have logical brains not to fuck anyone against their will, and rapists must be condemned” because it feels like a test to see if she’s safe with you…

The conversation was long and she talked about feminism, I told her that even though I don’t know everything about it I am interested in learning more about their points of view (I agree with some of them) and she was super glad I’m not like other guys and want to “deconstruct” myself lol

I have a youtube channel and want everyone to watch me, no matter their points of view, so I know how to talk to appease everyone. If you don’t feel comfortable with this you should learn the “woke” topics and avoid them because they WILL start debating and you might get disqualified just because they won’t feel safe if you don’t agree with their points of view. Or, at the vert least, they will start testing you much more.

 

[Dragon913]

These kind of post always derail ahaha

 

[HoofHearted]

man, all the times I have smothered the spark due to my over intellectualizing the convo.

This is the wisdom in the thread

It doesn't actually matter what Maslow said. If anybody wants to know, his seminal work is called Motivation and Personality. I found it strangely readable, but there's no real reason to read it.

Why is it men will pick having an argument over getting laid?

 

[StrayDog]

This is the wisdom in the thread

It doesn't actually matter what Maslow said. If anybody wants to know, his seminal work is called Motivation and Personality. I found it strangely readable, but there's no real reason to read it.

Why is it men will pick having an argument over getting laid?

Better to be wise than right. Too many guys think they can talk a girl into chemistry. That's not how verbal game works. It's not about what's said, it's about what's conveyed. Like it was never about Maslow in the first place, it is about the chemistry you two create together. You can't shoehorn a connection into it with logic. Solid verbals aren't always logical. They slip past logic to get at the emotional and physiological undercurrents of your interaction. To the point where sleeping together is the most reasonable thing to do

So even if she does frame sex in some less-than-desirable way you don't have to scramble to re-frame the whole thing on her. You can work with what she says to build chemistry. maybe you respond with ambiguity to build tension
"well there's a curious perspective" (she explains herself more)
"huh seems like something you thought about" (change the subject).

or use humor to build a sense of connection
"wait sex isn't a basic need? you mean I can finally focus on eating healthy and getting rest?"

Or maybe she does have some hang up and by getting her to open up about it you have more to work with to help her feel comfortable later when it comes time to escalate.

Whatever course of action you take. The point is, there is no need to get hung up on whatever might feel like she is framing sex negatively in that moment. Just because she is saying she doesn't think that sex is a basic need doesn't mean she actually thinks that at all, she could just be talking shit to see how you respond. She could be playfully flirting like "what?! sex is a basic need. nooo way? (in which case no wonder she is upset when you turn it into a frame war instead of an inside joke).

Even if she does feel apprehensions about sex for some reason, doesn't mean she will be thinking about her theory at all when she has ultimately decided she needs you to fuck her brains out regardless.

keep the interaction moving toward a sense of intimacy, even if that means being a bit flexible on what might feel like an L in the moment, but is actually fairly inconsequential in the bigger picture. Even if it is in fact not the best frame she is putting forth, all you are doing by disputing is highlighting the whole thing to her, rather than breezing past it and managing the frame more broadly throughout the entire interaction.

She is no dummy. She can see what you are doing "oh I see, I am saying sex isn't a basic need and he is trying to convince me otherwise cause he wants to have sex." Treat her notion as inconsequential and it will become inconsequential. She will forget she even said such silly things when she's riding you in the backseat.

I was completely caught off guard, not expecting to have to defend the point that sex is a basic need.

you were caught off guard because your mindset was one where you felt you needed to defend an intellectual point that you felt was necessary to move things towards sex. Your job was never to solidify the notion that sex is a basic need. Your job is to slowly but surely compel her to reveal more and more of herself to you. To create a sense of intimacy. To stir up desire. Sex doesn't have to be a basic need for her to want it with you. It just has to be compelling enough for her to want it.

 

[HumanWhoLearns]

It was a shit test. 99% of girls like sex and if she didn't, she probably wouldn't be out with you.

 

[Blush]

It was a shit test. 99% of girls like sex and if she didn't, she probably wouldn't be out with you.

Well, most girls like sex, but most girls like chocolate as well, that doesn't mean they would put delicious foods at the base of the H.O.N.

I don't think women display the same hardwired, "dumbed down" hungry response to sexual cues and sexual stimuli as men do. Women tend to exhibit more variety when it comes to how they relate to sex. Sure, some of them may be real femme fatales, with insatiable appetites, but in my experience, not all women has that sure fire connection to brutal biological urges like men do. They may enjoy the physical pleasure, but the mental aspects of it, the thrill, the kick they get when they feel desired by men etc. are all pleasures that they can enjoy with a bit more cool and distance. It's fun, it gives them feelings of intimacy, power, confidence, whatever, unlike men who dive into the physical stimuli like dope fiends who need a hit.

A lot of guys tend to approach sex like crack cocaine, since they get such a huge biological reward from spreading their genes, but women seem to vary much more in their sexual response. Maybe since they can "use" sex in ways most men can't do. Sex is just not stimuli for women, it can be a tool, a gift, a huge risk, and of course, a "currency" if you will, and that makes their relationship to the act very different imo.

This also enables a kind of "I can take it or leave it" attitude, at least for some time. But a whole life without sex would of course take it's toll on anyones health.

And one mustn't forget that almost all women have experiences of some sort of "sexual violence", being stalked, being raped, having a friend who got raped, being sexually harassed at some point in life, or just being scared of being raped all the time since their teens. For the majority of women these days, sex can never be just undivided pure bliss.

I actually just came to remember when I first tried drinking alcohol in my teens, and I just thought it was a hilarious endeavour, I had zero doubts, zero worries, I just wanted to drink beer and joke around every weekend. But one of my best friends at that time almost never allowed himself even a tiny bit of drinking, he was always super alert and very careful with everything alcohol related, despite wanting to party with the rest of us. And I could never understand why he never allowed himself to just let go and laugh and have fun and forget about control and alertness just for a LITTLE WHILE, I only saw the pleasure and the thrill of it, and never felt in danger in any way. I later realized he had a family history that involved alchohol abuse and understood that drinking could never be about "just having a good time" for him.

 

[StrayDog]

Well, most girls like sex, but most girls like chocolate as well, that doesn't mean they would put delicious foods at the base of the H.O.N.

I don't think women display the same hardwired, "dumbed down" hungry response to sexual cues and sexual stimuli as men do. Women tend to exhibit more variety when it comes to how they relate to sex. Sure, some of them may be real femme fatales, with insatiable appetites, but in my experience, not all women has that sure fire connection to brutal biological urges like men do. They may enjoy the physical pleasure, but the mental aspects of it, the thrill, the kick they get when they feel desired by men etc. are all pleasures that they can enjoy with a bit more cool and distance. It's fun, it gives them feelings of intimacy, power, confidence, whatever, unlike men who dive into the physical stimuli like dope fiends who need a hit.

A lot of guys tend to approach sex like crack cocaine, since they get such a huge biological reward from spreading their genes, but women seem to vary much more in their sexual response. Maybe since they can "use" sex in ways most men can't do. Sex is just not stimuli for women, it can be a tool, a gift, a huge risk, and of course, a "currency" if you will, and that makes their relationship to the act very different imo.

This also enables a kind of "I can take it or leave it" attitude, at least for some time. But a whole life without sex would of course take it's toll on anyones health.

And one mustn't forget that almost all women have experiences of some sort of "sexual violence", being stalked, being raped, having a friend who got raped, being sexually harassed at some point in life, or just being scared of being raped all the time since their teens. For the majority of women these days, sex can never be just undivided pure bliss.

I actually just came to remember when I first tried drinking alcohol in my teens, and I just thought it was a hilarious endeavour, I had zero doubts, zero worries, I just wanted to drink beer and joke around every weekend. But one of my best friends at that time almost never allowed himself even a tiny bit of drinking, he was always super alert and very careful with everything alcohol related, despite wanting to party with the rest of us. And I could never understand why he never allowed himself to just let go and laugh and have fun and forget about control and alertness just for a LITTLE WHILE, I only saw the pleasure and the thrill of it, and never felt in danger in any way. I later realized he had a family history that involved alchohol abuse and understood that drinking could never be about "just having a good time" for him.

this is precisely why it is wiser to view seduction as a collaborative effort, and a woman as a potential collaborator. Rather than trying to shoehorn the whole endeavor into a narrow frame.

Let's say she is not just talking shit and she does have some hang ups around sex. Does that mean she won't be a good collaborator? Not necessarily. The more info you have on where she is coming from the more you are better equipped to make that call.

When you clash frames with her in an attempt to control the situation all you are doing is deterring her from opening up, and limiting the ways you can direct the interaction into a win win for the both of you.

When you make her comfortable enough to open up she will be way more open to exploring intimacy in a way that compels her. Granted you are able to help guide the interaction in that direction based on what she has told you about herself.

Maybe you discover that she has more trauma than you'd like to manage and that's fine. Now you know and you have saved yourself the trouble.

Often times though her apprehensions around sex are more superficial.

I have been with plenty of women who appeared to have some apprehensions but when we got down to it they were very manageable. Maybe she is in a "sort of relationship" with some dude she is kind of seeing, and that's holding her back a bit. Maybe she is inexperienced, and has only had a few disappointing encounters. She is eager to explore but she is nervous. Maybe she is in a dried up loveless relationship and "sex is not a basic need" is a story she tells herself to cope the the reality of her failing romance. Maybe she was raised religious and she is wrestling with beliefs that she inherited but is wanting to move beyond them. Maybe she is a virgin.

I have had wonderful romance with women in all those scenarios I mentioned and what brought them to open themselves to me was a curiosity in who they were and what their experience was. Once I came to understand what this aspect of intimacy meant to them a bit more I was able to frame things in a way that was personal to who they were. This compelled them to just take the leap.

As a general rule I will just lightly tease if a gal is throwing something like this at me. Just to test if she is talking shit or is actually being sincere about her apprehensions. If she is talking shit we can have a good laugh about it or build tension (@Will_V had a nice post in this thread about joking asking her the longest shes gone without sex).

If I sense she is being sincere I will approach her with a genuine curiosity. Gather more info and decide what the best route is.

When a woman is apprehensive about sex it can be because of a number of reasons. It does not necessarily mean she is frigid or has too much baggage.

I like to think of seduction as playing music together. They will be moments of tension as well as moments of harmony but as long as you are listening to the other person and building around what they are playing, the two of you will get into a groove. So instead of getting flustered when she throws a sour note, as yourself how you can use it to create something compelling.

Always be willing to walk away if she has baggage you are not willing/capable of managing. Better for every one

 

[Glow]

Dont combat, smoothly influence...

This is a key resistance point you wanna by pass as its full of anxiety for her so its often more smart to be calm and gentle here. note some of the vids teevster outlined. If you can tip her past this she will often get more flirty/in a better mood

Field proven technique: pace first... then lead

pacing diffuses her emotion especially if you use elicitation techniques
but pacing in itself is strong too..
youll notice how she transforms when you do this instead of "immediate combatting".
also you will elicit whats behind her stance on things enabling you to work her in a targeted fashion

on the lead side - you introduce a better perspective/a frame. here you wanna have some prepped strong points on having sex from which you can choose that appeals to the particular woman. Elicitation in the pacing will give you more sense of what her buttons, points and mindsets are, what theyre based on. So read a lil up on what more positive angles are. Speak it out.enable your vocab for the next encounter. this can be found in sots, mindsets on sexuality etc. having a bit of variety of perspectives enables you to choose various paths. But start w 1 or 2.

so in sum
be smooth by actively eliciting and pacing
you can pace her or just elicit (mirror, pace etc). note that pacing demands some training and often 2-3 paces can be needed to get her to let go of her firmness.
And then shift to a stronger perspective which she is now open to, which you can in various manners influence her mind about. Typically a postive overwrite of her point is strong - taking the higher ground, providing nuance and better mindsets and quality of experience of what youre talking about. Be sharp and adapt to her stances and pointers..

Also once you get a grip of this you can use it to open the gates into creating sexual frames making her relax around you sexually and feeling more liberated.

be patient in it - its a slow process. this will come with experience.

sorry too lazy to provide links. Search on the topics - ive written both on pacing and leading and elicitation. Teevs provided loads here too. Check field rapports of verbal seducers to get concrete examples (prob search for teevs examples)

 

[Chase]

Many replies here, on stating points, reframing, etc.

The one I did not see was exploring the girl's position (although @Glow did mention elicitation).

e.g.:

HER: Sex is NOT a basic need!​

YOU: Oh no? Why do you say that?​

HER: Because you won't DIE if you don't get it! Duh!​

YOU: Is life or death the definition of 'basic need', do you think?​

HER: Obviously!​

YOU: So what do you think about shelter? Can you survive without it?​

HER: Not if gets really cold!​

YOU: How about health? Is that a basic need?​

HER: If your health gets too bad, you will die, so yeah!​

YOU: What about your genes, if you never reproduce, will they one day die?​

HER: Umm... I mean, I guess, but we are talking about YOU!​

YOU: So are 'you' your genes, or you're not your genes?​

HER: Your genes are a PART of you, but they're not just YOU!​

YOU: Interesting. I think I see your position.​

HER: So do you agree sex is not a basic need?​

YOU: I mean, I'm just talking about Maslow, that's what he says. You can take that up with him and the whole of institutional psychology, I have no stake in the thing.​

HER: Psychology is just wrong if it says that.​

YOU: Yeah, you never know. So anyway [CHANGE SUBJECT]​

I for one enjoy headstrong opinionated girls. A little Socratic questioning goes a long way with these types.

With something like this, you don't actually directly attack her frame, but you undermine it, by getting her to consider sex as being in basically the same light as shelter, health, etc. -- things that won't necessarily need to immediate death if deprived, but can lead to eventual death (in sex's case, it's gene death / death of a person's lineage, which is a basically an extension of bodily death). Then when she tries to pin you down, you say hey, it's not my opinion, that's just what the experts say! And she has to say well the experts are wrong then, which is something these opinionated types of girls will do a lot ("I know better than the experts then if that is what the experts say" -- I love getting them to say that, personally, because inside they always know they are on shaky ground but you have sort of boxed them into it. Makes it super easy to play with their frames later on).

The fun part is when you return to it later, and are deeper in flirtation, and can bring up this topic you have cracked a bit earlier by undermining her position. Getting sexy... vibe is strong... get her feeling like she NEEDS to be with you... then "Well I mean, we should probably just end things here. It's not like this romance/flirtation stuff is a basic need or anything." Get her qualifying on how well, just because it isn't a basic need, doesn't mean it isn't something that you can't want really bad.

Then you just do, "Who wants to be wanted? I want to be NEEDED. Do you want to just be WANTED by a man you are into... or do you want him to NEED you?" with all your sexual tension and self-pointing as you say "man you are into" going.

Then you get her agreeing with you, weakly protesting that but it is still technically wanting, not needing, which you do not need to address at all, because the logical part of the argument is not important; you just want her submitting to your frame and feeling the things you want her to feel.

(then you just tease her after sex that it definitely seemed like she NEEDED IT to you, and she will get all annoyed and protest that that was just a want, not a need, and you can laugh at her stubborn insistence. Headstrong know-it-all girls are one of the spices of life if you ask me)

Chase