How to handle 2nd date arrangements

[ray_zorse]

hi guys... and thanks to Franco for previous advice on sexy smirk & sexual framing which has been doing the trick.

So I met another cute & charming working girl, by the time I'd left her workplace we'd established a lovely playful vibe, some chase & sexual frames had been employed and she had qualified herself extensively, and had taken my number and promised to let me know her schedule so things were in good shape.

She did contact me back (I wasn't sure) and seemed keen so after she suggested to move initial date plans forward and meet earlier I suggested tried for easy date, this didn't work so I chose a restaurant which turned out to be pretty good.

The actual date was a bit of a marathon involving quite a few different venues, her compliance was good but every now and then she refused compliance when I instructed her to turn towards me for a kiss so I had to built it up again (this despite her being quite snuggly and discussing all sorts of intimate topics)... she comes from a pretty conservative background and I really had to get out the hard push to go for a pash but eventually she came through, by this time it was late and we both had to work today so couldn't take it any further.

I mostly managed to avoid a chasing vibe although it wavered a bit, luckily I had managed to maintain some mystery and towards the end when she started quizzing me hard on my relationship status / meeting with other women etc I was able to basically say I don't waste time and let her know I might not be available for extensive courtship activities...

So the question is where to take things from here, I didn't make a 2nd date because I didn't want to seem like I was chasing, so I thought maybe a text to say it was fun to get to know her and I enjoyed teasing her a bit, and go for a little rapport building and see if she suggests a further break in her schedule... this kind of thing would be more appropriate after closing since I want to avoid chasing, but on the other hand I feel that she may be close to auto rejection having gone further than she intended on first date, that's also been an issue in the past.. so I don't want to do anything that would push her over.

What do you think?

cheers, Ray

 

[Chase]

Ray-

You mean a girl you met at her place of employ, yeah? I'm more familiar with the slang use of the term: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/working+girl

First off, kissing in public is usually a big no-no, and doing so in restaurants usually an especially big one. There are ways you can get it right, and I don't know if you have an established style you use and this is a big part of it and it normally works for you, but if you're starting out at least or shaking the rust off, kissing's usually safest if you wait until you've got her alone in the place you'll sleep with her at. See here for more: How to Kiss Girls in Public and Have It Go Great.

Telling girls you move fast is another big no-no, especially when you are moving slow (traditional restaurant date, not going for intimacy on the first date, etc.). It's a value double-whammy for you: here's a guy who claims to move fast, but the fact that he can't even get her to kiss must mean his charms REALLY don't work on her - it isn't going slow because HE wants it to, it's going slow because she just isn't INTERESTED! It's also a hit to your attainability, because she's just told you she wants a relationship with you and you've just said, "Sorry honey, not my style." Which... might be okay if you were firmly in the lover category, but is like dropping a mortar shell onto your odds when she only sees you as a boyfriend candidate.

It sounds like the date didn't end on the best of terms, which means a good chance you won't hear from her again. However, women will surprise you sometimes. I'd probably try calling her on the phone to chat with her a bit if you're any good at phone game and just focus on rebuilding some of the interest and intrigue and good feelings that the end of the last date tamped down. Then if that goes well text her again a few days later and see when she's free to meet up.

Also, check out this article:

3 Second Date Strategies to Make Her Flirt and Swoon

Chase

 

[ray_zorse]

Thanks Chase..some good insights that I completely missed...actually I should have done an FR and given a bit more detail, I am doing FRs now.

Anyway so what happened was venue #2 was a darkened lounge bar and we had an ok seat on a couch a bit out of the way (but still visible from the bar), a little after non compliance on kiss IIRC I decided to call it a night and took her down to the train station, I think if I had stuck with that things would have been fine (closed out well & on my terms) but unfortunately it was cold, dark & deserted and a bit of a dangerous place and next train wasn't for 20+ min, I didn't want to wait with her or to leave her there so I suggested we walk back to my car and I would drive her home, yeah, I know, in retrospect bad move, would have got some asshole points by leaving her there & not rewarded non compliance etc, on the other hand she really is a nice, honest, straightforward girl (more on this in a minute) and we got on well and I felt she deserved better.

Anyway she lives in city, got there in less than 20min, I let the conversation die in the car but it was a pretty comfortable silence, eventually got started again and it was nice, since it was still kinda early I suggested a dessert, figuring I would work on her some more and see if matters could be improved, guess I didn't really have my logistics sorted at that point & was not really planning clearly but I had an idea I'd been turning over in my mind for a while which was a private room at karaoke...so took her to one, they didn't have food but we certainly had a blast, I suppose we were so into the vibe that I forgot to escalate and was surprised at the end of 1hr, though there was of course plenty of physical contact, unfortunately it wasn't that private, noticed staff checking on us a number of times which made me a little uncomfortable.

So after karaoke I really did take her home (but had started to put the hard word on her in the street to say it had been a wonderful date but was missing only one thing, and that it was puzzling why she was happy to discuss all sorts of intimate topics and to snuggle into me & everything but was shy on this point -- in retrospect it was bad to do this in public -- thanks soo much for pointing this out) & it was in the car on the way there that the conversation took a more serious turn & I probably said too much, about how it's not how I roll & so on, I completely agree that this was a fuckup for the reasons you stated but I completely missed the implication she was boyfriendzoning me, so thanks for clearing that up.

Now in the car I was joking around with her a bit, had told the story for example that I had lunch with a muslim couple the previous day (the husband is a colleague & good mate) and how the wife never kisses hello or goodbye, you can't hug her or anything, just a handshake even though i've known her for ages and we are good friends, and how I find this very strange and uncomfortable, as I need to express myself physically, so I joked that we should settle things with a handshake and she laughed and offered me her cheek and vice versa. This was progress! So I then went in for the pash and she was up for it, I stupidly thought I could do the breaking-off-early and leaving-her-hot-for-it thing but of course it felt too good, and went on for some time, our brains fool us with all sorts of shit in the heat of the moment to get short term gratification.

Anyway I wouldn't exactly say that things ended badly, rather the problem was over providing good feelings, over providing touch without it being a reward, no coherent plan for 2nd half of the date and basically sacrificing the lay for short term good feelings, I had this trouble w club makeouts in the past so it was enlightening to read your article on not doing club makeouts, an "aha" moment, but obviously the lessons learned were not applied here.

Also too much honesty about my dating lifestyle, have decided in future not to feel guilty or hide it (one extreme) and not to lay it out on the table thereby saying "fuck you" to relationships as you astutely point out (other extreme) but to (1) answer the question i want to answer, which is essentially, am i available to her, (2) reflect it back on her, treating it as not really any of her business until she can out lay her cards on the table and justify why she needs to know, in other words to show some commitment, potentially even saying "weelll.. exclusive dating? that's a pretty big deal.. isn't that sort of like relationship? would need to see some solid commitment before discussing that"... and (3) be more open to idea of relationship, at least short to medium term one, with the right girl if she can meet my standards and show appropriate investment.

So wrap it up...I had had no idea location was the problem when going for the kiss, but since she was up for it in the car I think you're 100% on the money..so thanks for that. Haha and no I don't have an established routine, I'm a rank amateur. And as to the future..I had kind of written her off after friendzoning text arriving the day after chatty follow up text from me (wince) but actually she is still responding, I teased her a bit after that by text & got some laughs (didn't want to seem upset) and I'm considering maybe giving her a call to "touch base" and if I can get to a high(er) point maybe say I realize I acted like a bit of a jerk, a few years ago I would have jumped at the chance to date w her and take it slow, just had a few bad experiences since then which aren't her fault and would like to make it up to her, maybe take her out for the day to somewhere she's never been, down the coast or whatever (she's been in my city only a short time & has no car). Will let you know how I get on (but have some others in the pipeline so no biggie).

 

[ray_zorse]

Okay so I did as outlined...called her this morning for a brief chat, not sure if I really reached a high point since she was pretty sleepy, then inquired about her schedule, she was free until the evening, so I said I'd been a jerk and would like to make it up to her & invited her out for a day at the river, with my kids..this isn't what I would usually do of course, but I wanted to show her a genuine side like I was opening up to her (which I was) and also I am sure she would have realized I wasn't going to escalate w my kids present..ka-ching, she accepted, game on...all got along famously, weather was glorious, first really sunny day since the winter, everyone was out & about & soaking it up...lots of incidental touch as we went about the days activities which were quite physical, a fair bit initiated by her..I was also careful to touch on high points & to touch & praise her when she offered value such as rowing the boat, wiping my sons muddy pants with a tissue when he slipped over and so forth...pulled her in for a little kiss on the cheek as we were about to get in the car to take her to work after, since no one was looking, which she accepted...

Only two small issues, (1) problem w my deposit for the boat, they wouldnt give it back, i didnt really care as it was only $20 (bringing total to about $150 that day..yeah a day out is expensive here, kids are expensive, and i said i'd make it up to her & intended to do so)... but as soon as i walked away i realized this made me look like a little bitch, oh no, will have to be more argumentative next time, ask to speak to boss etc...the subject came up later and i explained that my time w kids is so short that i have to choose my battles...hope that helped. (2) before she left i casually asked if we were good, not sure if this would have looked needy or whatever, but i genuinely wanted some feedback & have made a habit of asking for feedback in order to gauge progress of my seductions, anyway she smiled and said mmm hmm which I think means yes. So, possibly not an issue after all.

All in all I think things didn't go too badly, but knowing what I know about seduction there are probably more nasty surprises around the corner...hehehe plan of attack at this stage is maybe a week radio silence (don't want to look too keen after having to jump thru all these hoops) and then propose either easy date or market shopping followed by food preparation at my place..if that doesn't fly I'm just going to tell her that I cannot prove myself any more than I already have and definitely leave it, she's cool but my patience has limits...

Never thought I would have an attainability problem..especially so early in my journey..nice diagnosis Chase. cheers.

 

[Chase]

Nice going, Ray.

Letting her think of you a little more as a boyfriend won't kill you - you can always do date compression, which will work out fine in most cases.

The deposit for the boat, yeah, I'd argue that a bit more usually. Even if they win, it's fine, and you can grumble about how those guys are thieves if you put up a fight; if you don't, it looks like people take things from you and you just roll over. Your response about wanting to spend time with your kids and otherwise shrugging it off was as good as any you could've used in a situation where you didn't otherwise fight them for the deposit.

The thing at the end you'd normally not want to ask if you're good with her either... it's a somewhat plus attainability, minus value move (you care about her: +A; you were worried about this: -V). However, in this case, I think the value hit wasn't too great, and since you needed more attainability it was still okay.

You seem to have pretty good instincts about where you're going wrong and can recover a bit in the moment and plan not to make similar mistakes in the future with these small blips.

Chase