How would you handle things if a girl inadvertently discovered your Game notes/material?

[Atlas IV]

I had a very close call the other day. A girl I'm seeing was at my place, and we were sitting at my computer together browsing music videos on youtube. At one point, I hit a key and accidentally caused my Game notes to pop up on the screen for a brief second. She didn't see much (I told her it's personal journaling stuff), but she did catch the title of one section - "Sexual Framing".

I was evasive about answering, but she kept asking me "What is sexual framing? What is sexual framing?"

I gave her a vague BS explanation about it being a way to psychologically frame my understanding of the sexual experience for women (which I guess isn't entirely false, but also not the whole truth). I'm pretty sure she googled it and found the GirlsChase article though, because the next time I met her she brought it up again, and she seemed to know a few more things about it.

I think what I told her was enough to satisfy her curiosity without damning myself, and I suppose I was lucky that it was something easily explainable. But it got me thinking... what if she had REALLY found my notes? I mean the secret sauce stuff - sex talk gambits, female state control, the Three Keys, escalation, handling LMR... I don't think I'd be prepared to explain that stuff to a girl.

Obviously the answer is to do a better job of keeping the notes a secret, but there's always the small chance she somehow finds out.

So, what's be the best way to handle a situation like this? Tell her the whole truth about Game and hope she understands? Or consider the relationship basically torched?

EDIT: This also reminds me, in Neil Strauss's book "The Truth", he opens up to his former girlfriend/fiance (whom he cheated on and put himself through sex addict rehabilitation therapy in order to get back with) about his past and he tells her everything about The Game in an attempt to be honest with her and heal her insecurities. In the end of the book they get married and supposedly live happily ever after (though in reality they got divorced a few years later - which sort of undermines his entire self-righteous thesis about truth and honesty). So I guess moral of his story is that, if you want a healthy relationship, it's better to keep The Game a secret?

 

[Spyce D]

Tell her the whole truth about Game and hope she understands?

Never

 

[Skills]

I had a very close call the other day. A girl I'm seeing was at my place, and we were sitting at my computer together browsing music videos on youtube. At one point, I hit a key and accidentally caused my Game notes to pop up on the screen for a brief second. She didn't see much (I told her it's personal journaling stuff), but she did catch the title of one section - "Sexual Framing".

I was evasive about answering, but she kept asking me "What is sexual framing? What is sexual framing?"

I gave her a vague BS explanation about it being a way to psychologically frame my understanding of the sexual experience for women (which I guess isn't entirely false, but also not the whole truth). I'm pretty sure she googled it and found the GirlsChase article though, because the next time I met her she brought it up again, and she seemed to know a few more things about it.

I think what I told her was enough to satisfy her curiosity without damning myself, and I suppose I was lucky that it was something easily explainable. But it got me thinking... what if she had REALLY found my notes? I mean the secret sauce stuff - sex talk gambits, female state control, the Three Keys, escalation, handling LMR... I don't think I'd be prepared to explain that stuff to a girl.

Obviously the answer is to do a better job of keeping the notes a secret, but there's always the small chance she somehow finds out.

So, what's be the best way to handle a situation like this? Tell her the whole truth about Game and hope she understands? Or consider the relationship basically torched?

EDIT: This also reminds me, in Neil Strauss's book "The Truth", he opens up to his former girlfriend/fiance (whom he cheated on and put himself through sex addict rehabilitation therapy in order to get back with) about his past and he tells her everything about The Game in an attempt to be honest with her and heal her insecurities. In the end of the book they get married and supposedly live happily ever after (though in reality they got divorced a few years later - which sort of undermines his entire self-righteous thesis about truth and honesty). So I guess moral of his story is that, if you want a healthy relationship, it's better to keep The Game a secret?

Is not big deal tell her you are into self development and how to become more attractive and get better at relationships, is a plus...

 

[Michael Chief]

I don't hide shit. Why should I?

I'm not doing anything wrong. The methods I use such as sexual framing, kino escalation, and even compliance testing are useful tools of communication to help women see how awesome I am, and to make them feel good.

Why hide your journey in self-development? Are you ashamed of what you're doing? Do you see what you're doing as manipulative coercion, like you're somehow tricking women into thinking you're cooler than you actually think you are?

I don't see seduction that way. I see it as a way toward authentic expression and masculinity. It's the real and practical way to apply that "just be yourself" advice that women are always giving.

The women I date know that I'm a dating coach and learned all that PUA stuff. They know it's an important part of who I am. They know my philosophy and values. I talk about that shit on the very first date. They often find it interesting.

 

[Skills]

I don't hide shit. Why should I?

I'm not doing anything wrong. The methods I use such as sexual framing, kino escalation, and even compliance testing are useful tools of communication to help women see how awesome I am, and to make them feel good.

Why hide your journey in self-development? Are you ashamed of what you're doing? Do you see what you're doing as manipulative coercion, like you're somehow tricking women into thinking you're cooler than you actually think you are?

I don't see seduction that way. I see it as a way toward authentic expression and masculinity. It's the real and practical way to apply that "just be yourself" advice that women are always giving.

The women I date know that I'm a dating coach and learned all that PUA stuff. They know it's an important part of who I am. They know my philosophy and values. I talk about that shit on the very first date. They often find it interesting.

Yes mystery in his interview said him and beckster when women find out they are dating coaches get intrigued and actually helps...

Op check my post on the subject:

Long-Term - Why I talk about fight club and i think otherwise is silly!

The recent events of @Beam here made me write this post here are 3 camps of seducers part of the community: - Camp 1.- one says never discuss, talk or let anybody know you are part of the seduction community.- this has been explain to me by multiple guys and i still don't get it... - Camp...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[TomInHo]

It won't be a big deal... if you frame it right

Women don't like to feel like you tricked them into liking you.

But you could frame it like you were taking notes on things you were doing in your dating life to improve yourself and make your woman have a more enjoyable experience with you

And also use those notes to help your friends that are struggling in their dating lives

From my experience they are more receptive to it if they feel like you're more of a teacher working on his craft rather than a pure student

 

[Conquistador]

The “hiding” mentality is incredibly bad for your game. Bleeds into everything you do and say.

Congruency is really important.

That said, discretion is a thing.

And there are many many ways you could be responding in an attractive way. Such responses tend to come from a clearly stronger frame than the woman’s.

 

[Atlas IV]

I don't hide shit. Why should I?

I'm not doing anything wrong. The methods I use such as sexual framing, kino escalation, and even compliance testing are useful tools of communication to help women see how awesome I am, and to make them feel good.

Why hide your journey in self-development? Are you ashamed of what you're doing? Do you see what you're doing as manipulative coercion, like you're somehow tricking women into thinking you're cooler than you actually think you are?

I don't see seduction that way. I see it as a way toward authentic expression and masculinity. It's the real and practical way to apply that "just be yourself" advice that women are always giving.

The women I date know that I'm a dating coach and learned all that PUA stuff. They know it's an important part of who I am. They know my philosophy and values. I talk about that shit on the very first date. They often find it interesting.

Interesting, so you talk about PUA with girls on the very first date? Or do you mean just the philosophy and values around it?

I've only ever really opened up about game with one girlfriend. I've generally found that telling girlfriends about it creates more problems than it solves, especially if she already has insecurities.

I do not see game as manipulative coercion. The thing is that "game" is a huge reservoir of interconnected understandings, ideas and techniques, and there are many things that, taken out of context, would seem like manipulation to someone who doesn't see the whole.

For example, if an uninitiated woman were to read an article about overcoming last minute resistance - guidance on how to a fuck a girl who is resisting your sexual advances - many would indeed see that as psychological manipulation or even worse. Even though we, from our holistic perspective inside the world of pickup, know that it's actually helping girls overcome their own mental barriers to get what THEY truly want.

The way I see it, being totally open with girlfriends about game could become a never-ending source of drama. There are also things I think many women simply cannot understand about game, because game is ultimately about THEM, and for them to understand it would require introspection of the kind most women simply aren't capable of (if women were fully aware of their own behaviours, most of this stuff wouldn't work).

 

[Atlas IV]

Yes mystery in his interview said him and beckster when women find out they are dating coaches get intrigued and actually helps...

Op check my post on the subject:

Long-Term - Why I talk about fight club and i think otherwise is silly!

The recent events of @Beam here made me write this post here are 3 camps of seducers part of the community: - Camp 1.- one says never discuss, talk or let anybody know you are part of the seduction community.- this has been explain to me by multiple guys and i still don't get it... - Camp...

www.skilledseducer.com

That's a really good thread, I see that this topic has already been discussed here. Nice to read various perspectives from senior members.

 

[Michael Chief]

For example, if an uninitiated woman were to read an article about overcoming last minute resistance - guidance on how to a fuck a girl who is resisting your sexual advances - many would indeed see that as psychological manipulation or even worse.

Have you considered that the way PUAs have framed certain parts of game might actually be on the wrong side of things?

A big part of why I have no shame and hide nothing from women is that I know I am constantly making an earnest effort to follow and teach what I believe to be right. And I want to make sure I stay right by listening for all the possibilities of me being wrong. I am open to growing and stress-testing the things I stand for.

If an "uninitiated" woman were to read that article about overcoming LMR and told you that it perpetuates rape culture because the "freezing out" techniques covered by the article carried a consistent tone of coerciveness and a dismissive attitude toward the woman's sense of agency, would you listen and find a way to rework your game in a way that was more conducive to leaving women better than you found them through a prioritization of empathy? Or would you throw your hands up and declare that women "just don't get it?"

The former leads you down a path of further optimization and a life that you can be proud of. The latter fails the marshmallow test.

If a woman reads something I wrote and gives me the chance to expand my perspective with any sort of criticism, there is no better chance for growth. If what she says goes against any of my core values, though, she's not the right girl for me.

 

[Atlas IV]

If an "uninitiated" woman were to read that article about overcoming LMR and told you that it perpetuates rape culture because the "freezing out" techniques covered by the article carried a consistent tone of coerciveness and a dismissive attitude toward the woman's sense of agency, would you listen and find a way to rework your game in a way that was more conducive to leaving women better than you found them through a prioritization of empathy? Or would you throw your hands up and declare that women "just don't get it?"

Freeze out is a classic MM technique though. Are you saying there's a moral argument to be made against using certain PUA techniques?

Ultimately, I believe these techniques are just a means to an end. Once she's lying in your arms after sex, she's not going to remember or care about the steps it took to get to sex - whether it was a "freezeout", or something more "compassionate" like a reassurance and comfort gambit, or even just talking with her about the reasons for her LMR.

We also know that once you start to escalate, there's no turning back. If you escalate to sex and fail to overcome her LMR, it's very unlikely that you'll get a second chance with her - though a girl could never understand the psychological intricacies around why this is so. Therefore, if she's going to feel the same about you after sex regardless, I don't see why you shouldn't use whichever technique works best to achieve the result.

 

[Chase]

Looks like I am the outlier here.

But, first rule of fight club...

Why Not to Talk About Game with Women

Lots of guys talk about game with girls. But how does this affect your relationships with them? And is it worthwhile to do? I’ve noticed a difference over the years between my natural friends and my pick up artist friends. Well, more than one difference, but this one is the topic of this...

www.girlschase.com

I don’t talk about this stuff with girls.

The kinds of girls I like best dislike PUA. It doesn’t matter how you frame it. “I taught myself how to communicate better”, “I worked on my appearance”, “I studied interpersonal psychology”… as soon as they figure out “Wait, is he using this to fuck women?” they call B.S. on whatever other euphemisms you try to dress it up with.

“You just do that to fuck girls!” What are you going to say to that? “Yeah, but that’s just a side effect!” “No, I would never do that!” How about “You’re goddamn right I do!” I have used all those responses (with various intonations… “I would never do that!” is said as a tease, of course), but the drama always recurs again later.

There are definitely lots of girls who are totally cool with PUA. I haven’t talked about it with many women since the one girlfriend I did talk about it openly with… it was such a constant source of drama undermining the relationship I decided “Never again. I am never talking about this with women I date again.” But of the maybe half dozen women I’ve talked about it with since then, about half thought it was really cool and fascinating and exciting right off the bat. Some of them even started chasing hard. However, it always bothers the girls I’d consider any kind of relationship with. I can still get these girls anyway, but I know it’d be another constant source of drama if I dated them in any sort of ongoing way.

That said…

I had a very close call the other day. A girl I'm seeing was at my place, and we were sitting at my computer together browsing music videos on youtube. At one point, I hit a key and accidentally caused my Game notes to pop up on the screen for a brief second. She didn't see much (I told her it's personal journaling stuff), but she did catch the title of one section - "Sexual Framing".

I was evasive about answering, but she kept asking me "What is sexual framing? What is sexual framing?"

I gave her a vague BS explanation about it being a way to psychologically frame my understanding of the sexual experience for women (which I guess isn't entirely false, but also not the whole truth). I'm pretty sure she googled it and found the GirlsChase article though, because the next time I met her she brought it up again, and she seemed to know a few more things about it.

I had a girl I was seeing find some early GC articles on my computer way back in the day. She asked me what it was. My philosophy is if you’re confronted with something, be truthful, but skip the full confession unless that’s justified. So I just told her “I had some guys who were asking me to write a blog about doing better with dating, since that was something I had to self-teach, so I wrote some stuff for that.” Which is exactly the truth. I didn’t give her some discussion of what PUA was or tell her the name of the site or how big it is, etc. I just told her that.

(then I quickly squirreled away any articles that contained some mention of her in them, because after she discovered them she wanted to read my writing… lol. Nowadays all my seduction material is on my computer’s “work” account and that account is always locked unless the room door’s locked and no woman’s inside)

If you get called out on a specific concept, just define the concept:

“Sexual framing? Oh it’s a fun way to inject sexuality into conversations so they aren’t boring and platonic.”

That’s all you’ve got to say about it. 100% truthful, and if she looks into it she’s not going to say “He was being evasive!” You just give her the quick definition then drop it.

I think what I told her was enough to satisfy her curiosity without damning myself, and I suppose I was lucky that it was something easily explainable. But it got me thinking... what if she had REALLY found my notes? I mean the secret sauce stuff - sex talk gambits, female state control, the Three Keys, escalation, handling LMR... I don't think I'd be prepared to explain that stuff to a girl.

The easy explanation is just “I used to talk to girls but have a hard time making it sexual. So I talked to some guys who did really well at that and I took a lot of notes.”

So, what's be the best way to handle a situation like this? Tell her the whole truth about Game and hope she understands? Or consider the relationship basically torched?

Again, depends on the girl. Even if she hates it, the relationship is not “torched.” But you will have recurring drama that there is no way to totally get rid of IF she really grasps you got deep into studying and practicing PUA. The only way to get rid of that is to get rid of the girl and find a new one who’s either a.) cool with it or b.) who you don’t discuss it with.

EDIT: This also reminds me, in Neil Strauss's book "The Truth", he opens up to his former girlfriend/fiance (whom he cheated on and put himself through sex addict rehabilitation therapy in order to get back with) about his past and he tells her everything about The Game in an attempt to be honest with her and heal her insecurities. In the end of the book they get married and supposedly live happily ever after (though in reality they got divorced a few years later - which sort of undermines his entire self-righteous thesis about truth and honesty). So I guess moral of his story is that, if you want a healthy relationship, it's better to keep The Game a secret?

IIRC it was a girl he was trying to bang but couldn’t seal the deal with, so then he told her about PUA and “got real” with her and she finally let him fuck. Then she left him for a drummer in a rock band some months later.

If an "uninitiated" woman were to read that article about overcoming LMR and told you that it perpetuates rape culture because the "freezing out" techniques covered by the article carried a consistent tone of coerciveness and a dismissive attitude toward the woman's sense of agency, would you listen and find a way to rework your game in a way that was more conducive to leaving women better than you found them through a prioritization of empathy? Or would you throw your hands up and declare that women "just don't get it?"

I would have a long conversation with this girl about the history of male-female relations, the redefinition of what was historically and mutually agreed clearly consensual sex as rape beginning in 1975 thanks to the radical feminist Susan Brownmiller, and discuss the enormous disservice to American women the feminist-dominated education system has been doing since the 1980s that has left many of them deceived and ignorant about men and sex, to the extent that they actually have no idea what they are doing in many situations where women everywhere else in the world do.

Then, to defuse the tension you create when strong views collide, not to mention point out the hypocrisy of this kind of thinking, I would ask her if, when she gets mad at her boyfriend and freezes him out because she’s horny but he’s ignoring her signals, whether that means she has violated him and he should head over to the hospital for a rape kit

Chase

 

[Atlas IV]

If you get called out on a specific concept, just define the concept:

“Sexual framing? Oh it’s a fun way to inject sexuality into conversations so they aren’t boring and platonic.”

That’s all you’ve got to say about it. 100% truthful, and if she looks into it she’s not going to say “He was being evasive!” You just give her the quick definition then drop it.

The easy explanation is just “I used to talk to girls but have a hard time making it sexual. So I talked to some guys who did really well at that and I took a lot of notes.”

Thanks for your detailed reply, those are great responses. No need to twist it into something it isn't, just give a satisfying and truthful answer without being too specific.

Again, depends on the girl. Even if she hates it, the relationship is not “torched.” But you will have recurring drama that there is no way to totally get rid of IF she really grasps you got deep into studying and practicing PUA. The only way to get rid of that is to get rid of the girl and find a new one who’s either a.) cool with it or b.) who you don’t discuss it with.

I agree. Even if she is cool and you know she'll understand, it's still going to plants seeds of anxiety and insecurity which will only cause more problems in the long term.

IIRC it was a girl he was trying to bang but couldn’t seal the deal with, so then he told her about PUA and “got real” with her and she finally let him fuck. Then she left him for a drummer in a rock band some months later.

Actually it was his then-fiance (Ingrid), about whom he wrote the entire book. They had been engaged for some time, until one day he cheated on her and decided to confess to her, and it destroyed the relationship. The book is about his journey to heal himself of what he calls his "sex addiction" from his history in the dirty world of pickup, and discover how he can reconcile his longing for a committed relationship with a desire to sleep with lots of women.

It's a pretty interesting book that exposes hypocrisies within mental healthcare institutions, and explores the relationship between childhood trauma and the four attachment styles.

Unfortunately he gets quite self-righteous towards the end as he claims, after having experimented with many different kinds of polyamorous relationships, to have discovered the solution - i.e. to return to his original GF and explain everything to her, show her every text conversation with every girl he's dated, and explain The Game to her. He claims, at the end of the book, that this was how they built their marriage on an ultimate foundation of truth and trust, but the fact that they divorced several years later is something he's conveniently never talked about...

I would have a long conversation with this girl about the history of male-female relations, the redefinition of what was historically and mutually agreed clearly consensual sex as rape beginning in 1975 thanks to the radical feminist Susan Brownmiller, and discuss the enormous disservice to American women the feminist-dominated education system has been doing since the 1980s that has left many of them deceived and ignorant about men and sex, to the extent that they actually have no idea what they are doing in many situations where women everywhere else in the world do.

Then, to defuse the tension you create when strong views collide, not to mention point out the hypocrisy of this kind of thinking, I would ask her if, when she gets mad at her boyfriend and freezes him out because she’s horny but he’s ignoring her signals, whether that means she has violated him and he should head over to the hospital for a rape kit

Wow, this right here is the ultimate response! (and why it pays to study up on history )

 

[Skills]

Interesting, so you talk about PUA with girls on the very first date? Or do you mean just the philosophy and values around it?

I've only ever really opened up about game with one girlfriend. I've generally found that telling girlfriends about it creates more problems than it solves, especially if she already has insecurities.

I do not see game as manipulative coercion. The thing is that "game" is a huge reservoir of interconnected understandings, ideas and techniques, and there are many things that, taken out of context, would seem like manipulation to someone who doesn't see the whole.

For example, if an uninitiated woman were to read an article about overcoming last minute resistance - guidance on how to a fuck a girl who is resisting your sexual advances - many would indeed see that as psychological manipulation or even worse. Even though we, from our holistic perspective inside the world of pickup, know that it's actually helping girls overcome their own mental barriers to get what THEY truly want.

The way I see it, being totally open with girlfriends about game could become a never-ending source of drama. There are also things I think many women simply cannot understand about game, because game is ultimately about THEM, and for them to understand it would require introspection of the kind most women simply aren't capable of (if women were fully aware of their own behaviours, most of this stuff wouldn't work).

Has not been my experience...

 

[Chase]

@Atlas IV,

Actually it was his then-fiance (Ingrid), about whom he wrote the entire book. They had been engaged for some time, until one day he cheated on her and decided to confess to her, and it destroyed the relationship. The book is about his journey to heal himself of what he calls his "sex addiction" from his history in the dirty world of pickup, and discover how he can reconcile his longing for a committed relationship with a desire to sleep with lots of women.

It's a pretty interesting book that exposes hypocrisies within mental healthcare institutions, and explores the relationship between childhood trauma and the four attachment styles.

Unfortunately he gets quite self-righteous towards the end as he claims, after having experimented with many different kinds of polyamorous relationships, to have discovered the solution - i.e. to return to his original GF and explain everything to her, show her every text conversation with every girl he's dated, and explain The Game to her. He claims, at the end of the book, that this was how they built their marriage on an ultimate foundation of truth and trust, but the fact that they divorced several years later is something he's conveniently never talked about...

Ah, pardon.

I saw "Neil Strauss's book" and just read that as The Game.

Thought you were talking about his girl from the end of that book.

The Game had a lot of self-righteous undertones in it too. "These guys were all lost, and I was lost with them for a while, but ultimately I found my way and got out," was the basic story. Sounds like The Truth is essentially the same story just with the details changed around a bit.

Not to derail!

Wow, this right here is the ultimate response! (and why it pays to study up on history )

In particular:

How to Disarm Feminism in Your Girlfriend or Wife

When your girlfriend (or wife) starts bringing up feminist talking points, you need to know how to respond. Here’s how to defuse these and get your relationship back on track. This is going to be a somewhat in-depth article, with a deep look at the full (i.e., millennia- and...

www.girlschase.com

Chase

 

[gameboy]

Depends a lot on wording, too.

Consider the difference between:
"Open the target, hook her, and get compliance"

and

"Approach a cute girl you see, and if you feel the chemistry is right, invite her for a walk"

 

[Will_V]

if women were fully aware of their own behaviours, most of this stuff wouldn't work

I know what you mean here, but that's probably the worst possible way to frame things in your own mind. You are basically saying 'if I didn't have these tactics women wouldn't want me'. That's not a positive frame to carry around.

The issue here is one of conscious awareness vs emotional experience. Women want an emotional experience, and to do that you have to let go of reality to some extent. It's like if you are watching a movie and you're completely immersed in it and someone suddenly reveals all the cameras and props and ruins it all. It's not that you needed to fully believe that they didn't exist, you just didn't want to be aware of them.

Women are far more knowledgeable about themselves than most guys think, but that doesn't change their need to be emotionally satisfied. They are always ready and willing to let go a little for a guy who will make sure they don't fall.

Like others have pointed out, make some banal statements about learning better foreplay or something and let it fizzle out.

I'll also add, I suggest always finding a way to develop your game that is well aligned with your own values, that way you can easily stand by your identity when challenged. That's different for everyone, but if something makes you really uncomfortable for someone else to know (as opposed to simply keeping it under wraps for practical reasons) it's probably best not to do it.

 

[Duff]

Is not big deal tell her you are into self development and how to become more attractive and get better at relationships, is a plus...

Hey man, discovered this forum yesterday, great info
Dont want to start unecessary thread so can u tell me which game source does GC stand for, stumbled upon it upon reading many times but everyone always uses an acronym, thanks

 

[gameboy]

Hey man, discovered this forum yesterday, great info
Dont want to start unecessary thread so can u tell me which game source does GC stand for, stumbled upon it upon reading many times but everyone always uses an acronym, thanks

girlschase

 

[Duff]

girlschase

Oh lol, dont know how I didnt make that connection earlier, thanks