FR i think she wanted me to rape her

[lao che]

what a weird night. this just happened a few hours ago. i wanted to write it down to try and get it straight in my head.

tinder girl. 30yo, looks hot in her pics. moved over to other social media. she's lots of pics where she's out partying, cocktails etc. looks good. i'll provide excerpts of our online convo:




the meet

i meet her on the corner and we exchange greetings, quick hug, chat for a bit (she hands me a bag and i begin to tell her i'm not gonna carry it and she pre-empts me with "tonic water" so that's awesome! i look inside and pull out a panty-liner and she gets embarrassed .. i told you i'm on my period! there's lots of mentions of this throughout the night) then we walk off to get some food. all is good lots of kino, good vibe. she seems nervous. i'm worried that she might be drunk, it's difficult to gauge how much she's had. she's also giving me a lot of shit tests, pretty hardcore, actually. i take it in my stride, only vaguely recognizing it as shit tests. (eg we're talking about food, and i say about working in a hotel - you'd give the chefs some beers and they'd sort you out with good dinners, not the regular stuff everyone else got. she tells me that i should be tall and strong, then, so the good food was a waste (!?) i just laugh at this "you're right, and i'm short and weak, what a waste." she actually compliments my understanding of her comments, that i can read between the lines to find the true meaning. (just FYI, she's quite a big girl, 5'6'' and 60 kg maybe. i'm about 5'10'' on a good day)
we get some street food, some giant delicious looking lamb kebabs and seafood (i told her to haggle about the seafood but she was horrible at it. pretty funny. i told her "you're terrible at that." then took over the process but haggling up, "80? 90? ok ok 100! ok i'll give you a 120 but that's my final offer!" then while we waited i got her to go and buy some drinks, while i took care of the food.) we take it to my apartment, as it's hot as balls in the street. everything is going well, talking the whole way. she didn't even mention the stairs until we were on the 6th floor so, "nearly there".
get inside - music, lights and AC are already on. i immediately take off my shirt (peel it off) leaving a wifebeater vest underneath. i go the bathroom leaving her to get acquainted. i show her around my small place. saying "this is the bedroom, you're not allowed in there." she ignores anyway and we go through and stand on the balcony for a minute, although the view is only of the building across the street.

get drinks together, get the food on plates (way too much food) sit down on sofa to eat. chatting away. all is good, a bit too friendly, but not bad. we're feeding off each other's forks, though. there's no awkwardness.

some snippets of conversation

her: "where's your wife, why aren't you married, you're already 40 ...bla bla bla"

me: "i could ask you the same question ,-) i guess it depends on your beliefs. i don't believe a man and a woman are meant to be together forever. i don't think it's natural."

her: "i'm a virgin. yeah if you fuck me i will bleed that's what happens right? virgins bleed?" (i'm almost sure she's lying about this. i suppose she's referencing the time of the month, but there have been two virgins quite recently, 30yo and 34yo ...)

me: "not all girls bleed the first time/if you were to fuck me i'll probably bleed but i'm not a virgin"

me: "what's your longest relationship?"

her: "5 years. "

me: "that's a long time for your boyfriend to go without sex! no wonder you're not together anymore. "

me: "i was with my girl for 6 years. we broke up because i didn't wanna marry her. "

so after we eat (or during, the timeline isn't clear in my mind), more shit tests follow. i'm the king in my castle so i'm just talking shit. i introduce her to my "family" on the sofa. (either gifted to me or left behind by previous tenants) there's mister ted, little dog, handy-cat etc. (i often use this to sexualise and escalate i say things like "they don't think i know ... but when i'm not here mister ted and little dog get up to some terrible things .... so naughty)
i'm also talking about my plants and other stuff. she says at least a million times "i think you're a lonely man who has to talk to his toys bla bla bla " so, agree and escalate - "yes, you're right. poor lonely old me!"

now we're either together on the sofa, or standing, talking, touching. it's not great, feels a bit forced i've tried to kiss her about 3 times, to no avail .. at one point i hold her and start smelling her, gently nuzzling her neck and sniffing her, it's quite erotic and she seems to enjoy it.
somehow we end up in the bedroom. which, for me isn't the usual run of play. i nearly always get down to business in the living room, at least at first. now here we are on my bed together ...
i start showing her some jujitsu moves and we start rolling on the bed. things begin to get fun now. we were at it for a while. with me pinning her down, or letting her flip me off and get into a dominant position. i'm commenting on it as we roll: "oh, i've got your back! i've got the hooks in! uhoh she's in trouble now!"
she's like "WTF!" and struggling under me coz she has no answer to my moves. then i let her get on top again, flip her, get full mount, pin her arms to the bed, lean in for a kiss. i'm not actually putting my weight on her though, she's letting me control her arms. she's under me with her flowing hair spread over this red love-heart pillow (another remnant left behind in the apt) and she looks sexy as fuck, which i tell her.
i've got a boner, and i'm not trying to hide it. i'm still in my clothes, though, so i make her help me take my top off, to which she gives objections. i hurt my shoulder a few months ago and it's not quite full range of movement yet, so it's difficult for me. in the end we peel it off together.
more resistance and quite rough play follows. she's strong as fuck. many times when i'm on top of her she puts one or both arms round my throat. i don't mind a bit of rough play with girls i know. i'll slap a girl a little, light choking, whatever. i really like biting, without leaving marks. nothing actually harmful though. i'm really a good dude. but i love it when a girl gives it back. it's fun and i always tell girls "come on, you can't hurt me, you're just a girl!" i believe this turns them on, in fact. that they are giving me their best slaps and the only result is a hurt hand. (except one time a girl really cleaned my clock! i had ringing in my ears for about 10 minutes and was seeing stars. there's an art to slapping without hurting someone, you use just your fingers, or the ... underside of your knuckles. that girl caught me clean on the ear with the heel of her hand. whammo!)
i digress ...

so unbelievably, we still haven't properly kissed by this time. i've been dragging her onto me, letting her roll away, spanking her ass pretty damn hard .. at one point her boob fell out which i laughed at and manhandled. she's wearing a very low cut top)

pls note ... none of this is my usual style of play!!! it was weird for me too!!! hahaha

now, we're (or i am) alternating between quite forceful and then quite soft and romantic. like i'll pin her hard, but then relax, slow it down and be more gentle. i like the contrast, but she seems to get turned off by it. we've been making out a little.
she still is giving lots of objections. she mentions leaving more than once. i shouldn't have told her i had to wake up early. we are standing by my bedroom door and i quite forcibly pull her to me and we make out passionately. the kissing is good, sexy. but i literally have to hold her in place, like she's struggling to get away, but then after we start kissing properly she relaxes into it. but really seems to want to get manhandled. she mentions leaving again and i tell her no, it's too late she can sleep on the sofa. we have a little playfight with her telling me to sleep on the sofa and she'll take the bed. so she's trying to push me out of the bedroom and i reverse it so she gets pushed out and i'm inside and close the door. i get on the bed, expecting her to come back in soon enough. which she does. more of the same weirdness follows.
in the end i get bored of the merry-go-round, so when she talks about leaving again i say "look i'm not gonna force you to stay. i'm not gonna prevent you from leaving"

she says "fine" or whatever, gets her stuff and leaves. maybe i should have gone after her (maybe she expected it?), but i just turned off the lights and went to bed.
fuck it.

i sent a message "well, that was ..... interesting. be safe. let me know you're home."

20 min later: "home already"

me: "alright. good to know. that's a fast taxi"

i'm a little skeptical she could have gotten home so quickly... ho hum



anyway, lamb kebabs for lunch

 

[HellAtlantic]

With you being 40 I probably would hold off on the talking to the toys thing. You're just a bit too old for that to come off as not being weird or awkward. I don't necessarily think that was a shit test she was giving you. We both know why you bring it up cuz you're trying to set up frames, but it just doesn't seem like something that jives well with an older person with no weird issues. I could be wrong tho. Weird date, I agree.

 

[lao che]

I don't talk to them.

It's never been weird or awkward before

 

[Chase]

Lao Che-

Hmm, this is a somewhat unusual escalation. I'm not sure how I feel about the whole "putting each other into jiu-jitsu pins" thing - super polarizing. I think my biggest reservation here is this seems like your escalation strategy, and it beats around the bush too much. It's not like you're showing her sex moves; instead, you're doing something that's supposed to be non-sexual. Unless there were heavy sexual tones beforehand and lots of flirting intermixed, it'll look like you're scared to pull the trigger.

e.g., maybe a good way to do this:

• 
  Lao Che pins girl down: "You know, with you pinned down like this, I could do anything I wanted to you..." Girl struggles and resists. Lao Che: "Resistance is futile. I own you now. Want to beg for your freedom?"
  
  Then Lao Che lets girl flip him over and pin him down. Lao Che: "Take my shirt off... show me how dominant you are right now." [girl complies] Lao Che: "Now take your shirt off - it's too hot in here and we're sweating too much for it."

etc. Keep giving her commands and orders to continually escalate the sexual frame, while also displaying that you're in charge even while she's on top.

The dynamic the jiu-jitsu moves set up from what I can read here was that the two of you were struggling to be in charge, and sometimes you let her win, getting on top of you and choking you. That's fun for her, but it isn't sexy for her. Be careful with stuff where you let some girl dominate you in non-sexual ways.

There's also a risk that because she isn't sure of your intentions entirely (you seem to want sex, yet you're doing this mostly-platonic pinning thing with her) it leaves her ambivalent about her attraction to you, which makes her fear you taking advantage of her even if she decides she doesn't want you. Which may have been why she was choking you so hard - it may have been half-play, half to show you she wasn't going to be easy prey if you decided to do something to her she didn't want to do.

When she keeps coming back and threatening to leave, etc., try a compliance ladder:

• 
  Look, before you leave: come over here.
  
  Sit down on the bed.
  
  Lean in... unbutton your shirt. Just the top button.
  
  Now the next button.
  
  Now the next one.
  
  Now the next one.
  
  Now take the shirt off and throw it into the corner of the room.
  
  Now come over here and straddle me and put yourself in my lap.

Etc.

This girl needed to be dominated, yes, but she needed it done in a sexual way, and she needed it done in a way that clearly showed you were unafraid of being sexual.

For a comparable example, think of the guy grinding on girls at the club with his boner. Unless he's doing other sexual things, like escalating on her smoothly or whispering sexy statements in her ear, this is almost always distinctly NOT sexual to women, and some girls even make a game of it to go around and see if they can get guys hard on the dance floor and then leave, because it's funny to them that a guy would get turned on in a non-sexual situation like this. The guys who do this right will grind on a girl, maybe get a hard-on, but in addition they are touching the women in increasingly sexual things, whispering sexual thoughts into their ears, and escalating the entire vibe as well as putting their dicks on her and moving her body with theirs.

Jiu-jitsu pins are the wrong kind of dominant without sex intermixed. Imagine some girl you brought back to your place saying, "I want to show you how I pin down the guys in my class," and then you proceeded to have a mostly-platonic jiu-jitsu pin-fest. You'd probably be thinking, "This is so weird... what even does this girl WANT?" Kind of a boner killer. But if she started mixing in all kinds of sexy talk ("See, I could pin you like this and force you to eat my pussy for days...") and commands ("Take my shirt off, slave"), it'd change in a hurry, wouldn't it?

Chase

 

[lao che]

well ....

maybe some of this is lost in the telling.

i just realised, too, that i forgot to write parts of the text convo which took place before we met in real life. not sure it's necessary now... the whole thing is making me feel weird, too. i'm pretty sure she was turned on the whole time. before we went into the bedroom, and during. in fact she seemed to want to be in the bedroom rather than in the living room. there's no doubt what we were both there for. before the whole jujitsu thing we were on my bed together .. it's not like i said "hey come into the bedroom and i'll show you some jujitsu"
i mean i had my hand between her legs, i'd been kissing her neck and rubbing her breasts and so on.

anyway, as i said, it was weird for me too. i believe if i had just pulled her pants down and attacked her it would have been the right move, but i 'm not prepared to do that with a girl i'm not that familiar with.

 

[Chase]

the whole thing is making me feel weird, too. i'm pretty sure she was turned on the whole time. before we went into the bedroom, and during. in fact she seemed to want to be in the bedroom rather than in the living room. there's no doubt what we were both there for. before the whole jujitsu thing we were on my bed together .. it's not like i said "hey come into the bedroom and i'll show you some jujitsu"
i mean i had my hand between her legs, i'd been kissing her neck and rubbing her breasts and so on.

anyway, as i said, it was weird for me too. i believe if i had just pulled her pants down and attacked her it would have been the right move, but i 'm not prepared to do that with a girl i'm not that familiar with.

I get that, yeah.

I know what it is - it's when you want to escalate, but you try and take a longer way there... kind of a scenic route. Maybe "let me try this fun thing" or "let this be romantic." She wants it, you know she wants it, but you're trying to hedge against any possible resistance so you get creative.

The problem is the girl knows it's a detour, and interprets this as fear/doubt/uncertainty/hesitancy on your part (which... it kinda is, since you know what she wanted [tear her pants off] but were a little gunshy about doing this, so did something else 'rough', only it wasn't really a good substitute for tearing her pants off), which throws the vibe.

Kind of like if you signed up for martial arts classes with this guy, and at first he seemed really good and you were really excited, and then you asked him to show you some moves and he started rearranging stuff in the dojo and pulling out different fight mannequins and testing out some things here and it seemed like he was delaying showing you the moves... you start feeling like something is off and the excitement you had at how awesome this guy initially was starts to fade. It's incongruent, him going from master teacher to now you're not sure what he's doing.

Did you get the feeling while you were doing it like, "Oh man, I probably have to knock this off soon and get to the point, but I don't want to knock it off TOO soon or maybe she'll think it's weird we started doing this in the first place?"... or anything similar to that?

Even if you're making out, grabbing tits, etc., if there's a lot of extra stuff in there that there's not a really good reason it's in there (e.g., she begged you to show her jiu-jitsu moves because she started getting really turned on at the idea of you pinning her down... this could be awesome if you got that kind of buy-in first), it feels funny. Just like if you make asking a girl out a big production instead of just telling her the two of you should grab a drink sometime and then swapping contact details.

If you got that feeling or something like it usually means you took a stroll down a side path and realized a little too late it was taking you farther from where you wanted to go instead of nearer, but didn't want to suddenly just turn around in fear that'd make the girl lose confidence in your ability to lead things forward properly.

Chase

 

[lao che]

appreciate the input.

all i can say is i must have done a bad job of writing this report.



when i broke up with my LTR we saw each other for arbitrary reasons (sex) quite frequently, then less so .... the last time we fucked, anyone watching might have thought it was rape/borderline. i knew that girl so well that i could sense the tiniest change in her body language, and i knew exactly how far i could push. just the most subtle tells let me know that she still wanted me to take her. she put up a lot of resistance, there was nothing forceful , not really (no violence), on my behalf but i knew that she wanted me to persist, or that maybe she didn't want, but for emotional reasons (i.e. prolonging the inevitable ... you can only have so many one-more-times), she still desired to get fucked.
i also remember visiting her after that, and knowing with the same certainty that it was over for good.

i don't know the girl in the report well enough to rip her pants off and fuck her while she has both hands around my throat trying to strangle me. i'm not prepared to take that chance, to be a potential rapist. i believe she wanted me to, but i wasn't gonna find out.
there was no dilly-dallying on my behalf, i was escalating from the moment we arrived in my place (in fact, before). there was no 'fear of pulling the trigger' or "hedging of bets"

She wants it, you know she wants it, but you're trying to hedge against any possible resistance so you get creative.

she wants it, i think she wants it ... i'm on top of her ... but she has her hands around my throat choking me and pushing me off and i think i might get accused of rape.

Did you get the feeling while you were doing it like, "Oh man, I probably have to knock this off soon and get to the point, but I don't want to knock it off TOO soon or maybe she'll think it's weird we started doing this in the first place?"

no. i wasn't giving her lessons. we weren't having a sparring contest.

 

[journeyman]

Lao che, thanks for sharing this unique situation. To me her reactions are something very strange and I believe you did the right thing, letting her go. For all you know this woman had some issues and would try to get you in trouble if you had sex with her. It's not a risk worth taking. Use her behavior as a reference point to screen future time wasters.
Especially the phrase

look i'm not gonna force you to stay. i'm not gonna prevent you from leaving

to me is the essence of confident, self reliant behavior and something I look up to, so kudos for that.

 

[Chase]

appreciate the input.

all i can say is i must have done a bad job of writing this report.

Hmm, okay. Well, no worries - seems I'm thinking it's apples when it's more a crate of oranges, eh?

-C

 

[ray_zorse]

Lao che, do you think you might have escalated too slowly? I mean, you said you had tried to kiss her 3 times by the time you got to bedroom, and had nuzzled her neck (exactly what I would have done if the frontal assault wasn't paying dividends), was your thinking along the lines of building comfort (by wrestling etc) and then trying again

On the other hand, you said that this isn't your normal escalation path, and it sounds somewhat like it was out of your hands (if you had been in control then presumably you would have followed your normal escalation, allowing that your normal escalation allows for some backoff/rinse/repeat to suit the individual girl)... it sounds to me like you were in a comfort building phase when she managed to take control to an extent, and this isn't good. The lesson I'm getting from this is, if the kiss isn't working, and the neck nuzzling isn't working, maybe try something else like going for the pants... as you said, perhaps she was throwing up roadblocks just to force you to make something happen.

The other thing I'm getting here is that towards the end you did a kind of a mini-takeaway (well okay I've pushed and pushed and I've got you partway into an escalation scenario, well it's been hard work and that's as far as I'm willing to go, so basically if you're not willing to invest something here then you may as well go home, was pretty much the message)... however, you could have phrased it more casually and let her put it together herself... basically just start putting your pants on, check your phone, etc. Bear in mind that a takeaway is always risky, given she really wants you to make a move... and doesn't want to be the slutty fast-mover herself. It should really only be employed if she's being a dick... and in this case I think she just wanted more persistence, sounds like you were 95% of the way there but became fatigued at the last 5%.

Ray

 

[lao che]

My thoughts on the situation are in the title of the post...

I was not trying to build comfort, we were on my bed, i was on top of her, she had one, then both hands on my neck, basically throttling me arms locked straight . I said

You're strong.... Is that what you are into? Choking?
I put one hand on her throat, but not really pressing, icouldn't really reach anyway, as it would have meant choking myself on her hands, locked around my neck. Then I broke her grip and flipped it so she was on top, with me controlling her wrists


There was a weird aggressive, almost violent vibe.
Imo she was either telling the truth about being a virgin, and wanted to be taken, completely giving up responsibility ( there's a chapter in sperm wars, the four kids in the forest, anyone familiar with that?), or she was into rough sex and wanted to be abused.

But, truth be told i don't know

 

[lao che]

TL/DR she got cold feet after seeing a pink toothbrush in my bathroom, thusly deciding i was a player


day after

me: well i got a lamb kebab for lunch at least. last night was kinda weird ... wonder if you felt the same way

her: yes

me: i know right. well, we're in agreement. glad we see eye to eye on that.

(i take the fact that she hasn't deleted me as a good sign, and the fact that she replied as a big green light)


the following day ...

me: i believe you now though. i didn't before

her: what are you talking about

me: you

her: believe me what

me: being a virgin

her: oh, that's bullshit, u shouldn't believe it

me: what should i believe?

her: i have no idea. doesn't matter anymore

me: i should believe you're a bullshitter

her: ok, if you like

me: i don't like bullshit

her: then think what you want

me: here's what i think, i think either a) you are still a virgin .. but it's unlikely

her: i'm not. u know what .. it's kind of wasting time here talking nonsense (she often mentions timewasting, this is reference to my 'signature, and earlier convo)

me: or b) you had an abusive boyfriend, and you like rough sex

her: i liked you and trusted you, before you tried to rape me when i was on your bed when i had period. after that i don't even wanna talk to u

me: you never said no or told me to stop. but you did try to choke me

her: i kept saying it and you thought i was pretending. pretending what? bullshit

me: trying to kiss you .. that is attempted rape? i know you liked it when we were making out

her: then i have to say u are too confident about yourself. and the truth is i hate it and regret it now

me: you're a sexy girl. the moment was sexy. by the bedroom door. it was passionate. but i don't want to force myself on somebody. i would never do that

her: i feel bad for what you did. and don't think i'll meet you anymore

me: i feel bad too. seems we had some misunderstanding. that must be my fault

her: anyway, not important anymore

me: honestly ... at the time i really believed you wanted me to force myself on you. a lot of girls like it rough. but i couldn't do that. i don't know you well enough

no answer .... so a little later -

me: so, you thought i was trying to rape you, and i wasn't. and i thought you wanted me to rape you, but i couldn't. i'm glad we cleared up that misunderstanding.

her: i don't wanna talk about it anymore

me: fair enough. it's a beautiful night.

her: tonight u mean?

me: yes, mandy, tonight

her: u won't get married in your life, right? so it's wasting time to talk here, or maybe we have different ideas about a happy life

me: ur funny

her: ya, maybe. anyway now i think it's a waste of time

me: a minute ago you never wanted to talk to me again. and now, you're thinking about marriage

her: ya, it's true. our first meeting was a bloody disaster. better never talk about it again. no, i saw a pink toothbrush in your bathroom, and you said you'd never get married then i realized all women in your life are just toys for you to play with. maybe just for fun or to kill alone time, and i don't wanna be one of them ...... ya my thinking jumps around sometimes. kinda weird

me: let me check. yeah, there's a red toothbrush, and three green

her: come on you always have women sleep at your place. and you don't want marriage, and u tried to rape me. i don't wanna be a toy. not even for a ONS

me: you have a vivid imagination. last night i would have liked for you to stay. not just to fuck, kiss and cuddle. but you stopped because your period. for me it's not a problem. in fact i think it's hot (we had discussed at the time .. i don't think she ever had a guy fuck her while she's on, i'm totally down for that, though)

her: u don't understand what i was trying to talk about

me: yes i do. you feel i'm a player

her: let me say more directly. i'm not interested in guys like u

me: i'm eating an omelette with swiss cheese. yumm

her: my god. good communication [thumbs up]

me: i'm not kidding it's really good you think i'm a player. but you mention ONS. not me.

her: whatever. i don't like you

me: is it because of my pink pillow? (another thing she shit-tested me about. two matching pillows, blue. two not matching, one beige the other pink)

her: i don't think i need a reason to not like somebody

me: oh, it's the pillow isn't it? don't worry, i'm only a little bit gay.

her: i think i made myself clear. i have the habit to delete my contacts. you'd better pray to be kept one or two more days.

me: wouldn't that be a shame. i'd miss our banter.

her: no more. no need to miss it.

me: "please god, let me keep making this girl laugh for a few more days?" (shouldn't have said this, it's too arrogant. i almost put "so i can bang her when her period is over". i wasn't quite so graceless, though.)

her: oh ya. think about what horrible things you tried to do to her. i hope god will forgive you.

me: everytime you answer me you surprise me. i'm going to bed. sweet dreams



so there you have it. all becomes clear.

 

[ray_zorse]

Interesting, but I wouldn't pay too much attention to this, bear in mind that after her emotions change, she will rewrite the past to suit her new emotional state. This is especially true after missed window or a failed escalation/date, she will claim she was never attracted in the first place, etc. What tends to happen is she'll make decisions based off her current emotions towards you, but will then invent a plausible-sounding story (as she did here) to cover it. This is especially pathetic when you have the evidence of her previous emotional state in writing in her text messages, but if you challenge her she just rewrites it all even more, with more plausible-sounding reasons... then once she's constructed her excuses/explanations, that "becomes the truth", in fact she's not consciously aware of this process, her recollections are also emotional.

I have been looking at your texting game in this post, the other post about the girl who flaked but is still responding, and the other posts about Tinder, and to my vague recollection there have been a few others where you've cut them off pretty harshly... I think you need to pay a little more attention to attainability, when you've been too harsh with them there's usually been an attainability issue, meaning that more investment on your part would have been a good thing, NOT bad thing as is the naive PUA viewpoint. Whereas in some other cases, like this one, you've had a value issue and SHOULD have applied the typical PUA mindset of cutting off nearly all investment. Overall I think you need to get your abundance mindset more firmly anchored and be more willing to NEXT the troublesome cases, if you could get your abundance really settled into your brain at a deep level, and also convince your subconscious that you are THE FUCKING MAN that every girl wants to be with, you could also be a nice guy without hurting your frame. Girls really want the "charming rogue", you know, they want the asshole who is a NICE, charming asshole... I recommend to read the article on how to be more of an asshole, I personally feel the article is mistitled, because it's more about how to be a NICE guy while not having girls think you're a total pushover.

Ray

 

[lao che]

Cheers ray,

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make or what conclusions you're drawing

Me? I'm sure she's DTF, after that exchange. No doubt in my mind. I just might not have moved fast enough. Sure her period is finished

As for cutting off harshly.. I'm surprised you read that and thought to critique my text game. I thought the texting there was top notch. I'll take your comments on board.
It was 1am and bed time so had to nip that conversation in the bud.
Have talked since.

I think it's s reasonable what she said, I'm prepared to take it at face value. She felt like she would be another notch on my post and didn't wanna feel slutty. It verily explains why the mood changed and why she put the brake on the seduction



Hey man I updated the ''flake''post. Could really use some advice or input there, if you could

 

[ray_zorse]

Hmm well I'm not sure I agree with you about where this seduction is at. As I see it, it's a missed window / failed escalation / moved too slow, attraction expired situation... whatever you want to call it, effect is the same -> she either denies her previous attraction to you, or pretends nothing has changed, acts polite but throws up roadblocks to any suggestion of completing the act, with bullshit excuses. She is still responding, but that's the case about half the time in my experience (and its a wide experience cos I FU'd and missed windows A LOT lately, hahaha).

So the next area where we differ is in this post-mortem you've conducted, get used to the idea a girl will NEVER tell you the truth in these cases, instead she'll tell you a BULLSHIT reason she's constructed after the fact that "seems" to fit the facts as they appear to her. You can then point out all the holes in her theory and why it is utter bullshit (she had not taken into account all of the evidence in constructing her excuse, which is painfully obvious the 50th girl you find yourself in this situation with... but it does not do a blind bit of good. Why? She does not KNOW how female attraction works. It is a complete mystery to her. That's why her theories on the topic are so ludicrous. Luckily we have GC and we can explain the same data using theories that are actually sensible and give predictions that usually hold true.

Now all theory aside... let's look at this whole incident from tue viewpoint of a high value man who is unfiltered, in the moment, in touch with his thoughts and feelings, has lots of pussy on tap, does not mind giving offense to people, men or women, whom he deems as not providing crazy value to his life (to borrow Anatty's phrase), and conversely does not hesitate to reward with warmth and feeling and his fullest attwntion and emotion those who are currently (in this moment) providing value... in other words is 100% authentic.

So he met a chick who seemed worthy of his time and attention, at least on a provisional basis, he took her somewhere, listened to and filed a lot of personal data, did some nice things for her such as touching her, eventually offered her the privacy of his home so she could have the opportunity of being intimately touched as well... in return she purposely derailed his attempts to provide value by pinnimg him with jiu jitsu moves and generally being an obnoxious fuckhead, he overlooks this the first three times (figuring she has some personal problems leading her to express shyness with aggression, etc, though he knows better)... he eventually calls her out on this, whereupon she leaves. How does he feel... bit of a sour taste. NEXT!!!

However, since he is an exceptionally decent guy, he makes qn excuse for her behaviour (maybe it's a communication issue or mismatched expectations, or a cultural issue)... and contacts her with a kind message, that is essentially a further opportunity for her to receive value from him... she responds by calling him a rapist and telling him a bunch of lies about a pink toothbrush (girls NEVER make a decision on such a basis, a guy might, a girl makes an EMOTIONAL decision). How does he feel now? "What a fuckin waste!!"

See where I'm going with this? I don't want to be too discouraging because look, we all do this, including me (still), but the thing is that I'm an outside observer, I'm not at all invested in her, all I have is your reports... and based on that, I feel you aren't treating this situation the way a high value man would. Corrollary: At this moment your brain is not convinced of your true high-value status. I prescribe affirmations and lots of inner-game work, but also upgrading your outer game to be congruent with this, just for now.

I will check your other thread soon, ATM I am at park w kids.

Ray

 

[lao che]

So if I understand, you're saying that after I didn't fuck her, I should have just nexted her without a second thought? That would be more from a place of 'value'... We'll have to agree to disagree on that for the time being, though your points are duly noted ..

My opinion is (let's not forget this is tinder girl who agreed at 9.30 to come to my place, met me an hour later) she got cold feet and needed more comfort and reassurance.. Failed escalation doesn't necessarily mean 'no' but oftentimes 'not now/not yet'

Anyway, I realize I,m not always right in my perceptions

 

[ray_zorse]

I'm not saying as a general rule, it's more that her behaviour has been all over the place, and not respectful of you or all the investment you've made in her, such as inviting her home, kissing her etc. So by persisting you've basically rewarded that, and set the frame, that you don't deserve to be treated respectfully. At exactly what point this becomes a NEXTable offense (as opposed to a misunderstanding that can be turned around with solid game) is a matter for judgement, but as a general rule if I do a takeaway and she calls my bluff and leaves, not only is the prognosis for further persistence not good, but it makes it basically her decision not to partake of my value, and I won't second guess a decision like that. Case in point, my current gf, I did a takeaway and she left, so I NEXTed her... well it turned out to be only a soft NEXT, since I ran into her in the shopping centre some months later, but the fact she held my hand for a bit longer than necessary... indicated she'd been thinking of me and regretting her decision a bit. This would never have happened, had I not handled it the way a high value man would. I do understand what you did prior to her leaving wasn't exactly a takeaway but by telling her you will not persist anymore it was the same kind of principle at least.

I do take your point re. no meaning more comfort is necessaey, but (a) if she leaves the date and emotions cool it usually settles into a hard no / missed window, and (b) if she calls you a rapist in the meantime it's that much of a bigger mountain to climb. You would have done better to pass it off as nothing and try to get her out ASAP (like the next day) before emotions cool. But at the same time why bother? Your chances are better with any other Tinder match or cold approach. I suggest to step up your cold approaching, if you're not having 5 or more solid hooks per day there is plenty of room for improvement, see this post. The only thing that might slow you down is language barrier, do u speak Chinese?

Ray

 

[lao che]

ok, ray, that makes more sense now. i can see your point. you're probably right, i'm just giving her undeserved attention.
at first i wanted to clear up any potential negativity. i didn't want her to be telling her friends about the rapey guy she met on tinder. or be thinking that at all. but, fuck why should i care what she thinks? i didn't hurt her.
after that it became a game of seeing if i was right about the situation. suppose we'll never know for sure but i'm still prepared to take her word for why she freaked out. doesn't matter really.