FR++ I Was THIS Close to Bed Her in a Huge Uphill Battle

[Big Daddy]

So I'm a little rusty. I was involved in a huge project until Monday, so no going out and no girls to me. I plan to go out and approach at least 10 girls/day until August 5th to make up for this.

But then on Monday I seized an opportunity to start this with a lay and capitalized on it. Thing is, as I learned MIDWAY through the interaction (I'll signal it to you further down) this was a huge uphill battle and I don't know if my mistakes stacked up and ended up costing me the lay or if there wasn't anything I could do to bed this girl. I spent hours in her place yesterday.

Monday

I had to talk to a professor of mine on Monday and a bunch of people had to as well. One of them was I girl I had a few classes with in the past, but we never had a decent conversation for more than 5 minutes. I get there early and while I was waiting our professor with a buddy of mine, he showed up and said to warn the others that we'd have to meet 30 mins later because he had some important stuff to take care of.

Not long after that girl showed up and I didn't even know she was going there as well. So we talk during those 30 extra minutes and then the professor comes up and we had to take care of the aforementioned project. Two hours after that, the group leaves the room and we all started talking outside and making jokes and having a great time. I'm the one who knows the most people there, so I'm talking individually to a few people (the girl included) but I'm giving attention to the group as well.

I ask her if she's going home now, and she says she'll have to wait for her sister so they could go to her place, as her sister didn't live here and would get lost. She asks if I'm leaving now and I say "Nah, I can't go to my place right now. I'm gonna have to kill some time" and then turn around to the group. I have fun with them for a couple of minutes and she mentions "I'm gonna go to X place (I wasn't paying attention to her so I didn't hear what she said)" and 2 minutes after that everybody leaves and I ponder whether it would be a smart idea to go after her.

So ultimately decide it's worth a shot and I follow her path to our department building. I'm going in obviously looking for her as there NOTHING I could do there and that building was fucking desert. So I open her again by just asking an obvious, half-assed question but that's all I need to get the conversation going. We begin to walk towards the hall and when we're close to the door I stop to make her stop and continue talking to her.

There's a bench behind me, so I sat while talking to her expecting her to sit by my side, but she sits on the other bench across the hallway, so we're now sitting facing each other. I start deep diving her, but she loves our major and that's what we talk about. Ten minutes into the conversation, I motion her to sit by my side and she sits VERY close to me so our arms are touching now. I don't think this is an IOI because she's a very free-willed girl and talkative girl so she pretty much would do this with anyone.

We begin to get to more personal topics, such as her past, her passions, her plans to the future, etc. I can't quite remember if I applied sexual frames here. We just talk for maybe 1-1.5 hour until her sister appears and we head out. I lead them without saying anything to where my car is parked and they're talking to each other. When we get closer I unlock my car and ask in the most nonchalantly way possible

Me: Hey, [since we're just in front of my car that I didn't mention that existed and I know you guys are taking the bus], would you guys want a a ride?
Them: Sure!

I knew she lived with 2 more girls, and her sister was staying there for the day, so I wanted to screen for logistics to see if it was possible to pull her there later this week.

Me: Kay, but I'm horrible with directions. Tell me where I have to turn [this is actually true]

Girl: Haha, okay.

And since I knew one her roommates, I used her as a bait to ask questions about her place. We'll call that girl CuteRoommate.

The sister is seating on the backseat. So I turn to her and ask if she lives alone in her city.

Me: So, do you live alone there?

Sister: Actually I live with another girl

Me: Cool. Do you like it?

Sister: Yeah, I got lucky! My roommate is pretty cool! She... (describes all the things she likes about her roommate. Girl then get on the conversation mentioning CuteRoommate and the things she does and shit).

Me: Now that you mentioned her, I remember her looking around for a third roommate a while ago... how did you find the third girl?

Girl: (Go on the story about how the third girl lived with a super controlling girl and she couldn't throw parties and shit)

Me: Haha, so you throw parties every week?

Girl: Pretty much! Some friend of ours drank all day there on Saturday!

Me: Haha, that's cool. So you wouldn't mind if the other girls threw parties as well?

Girl: Well, I wouldn't see any problem if they at least warned me beforehand...

Me: Okay, but's let say on the of them goes to a party and brings a guy you don't know home. Would you be OK with it? [Sexual frame: I mean, that happens all the time. And screening for logistics: would you/them be okay with me there?]

Girl: Well, if don't know the guy, then I'm gonna be pissed! Crazy CuteRommate actually did this. She was completely drunk at a party and two of our friends and a random guy brought her home. I was sleeping and didn't recognize the third voice, so I got up and got very mad at that. I mean she was very drunk, that guy could be a serial killer...

Me: Hahaha, silly girl. Being drunk was part of her plan, I can imagine why she brought that guy home... [Sexual frame: I think about sex.]

Girl: I think he was a friend of someone he knew or something like that, but still...

Me: You don't even imagine what she wanted to do with her "friend" hahaha

Girl: Laughs

We get to her place and I ask her how do I get back home. She explains and I go home. Then I text her once I get home:

Me: Fuck, I lost myself
Me: I'm in the middle of this ghetto street with strange dudes looking at me

Her: You took the directions I told you? (She later told me that she got worried about this hahaha)

Me: Yeah, I'm just kidding. I'm home safe.

Her: Then that's not so bad haha

Me: Yup, after today nothing can get "good" (making reference to our project)
Me: Life misses vodka

Her: Hahaha for sure!
Her: I can't believe I'll have free time now
Her: I just want to sleep, eat and drink now! Lol

Me: What you're doing tomorrow?

Her: Nothing important. I'm just gonna run some errands and then I'll go to work, then I'm going to stay at home [Dude, I'm about to ask her out and she's giving me this HUGE window. Things are going great, I'm thinking might easily fuck her tomorrow]

Me: What do you say we hangout then?

Her: That would be nice

Me: When do you get off work?

Her: Early, like 4 pm

Me: What do you say we grab a coffee when you get out?

Her: Yep, sure

Me: Do you know XYZ place?

Her: Yes

Me: Cool, we meet there then. Shoot me a text when you're leaving, then we meet there

Her: Okay!

Tuesday

It's 4:30 and she didn't text me. I'm starting to think that she's going to flake, as I'm going through this annoying flaking phase. I'm starting to think that I should've proposed we chill in her place yesterday. The coffee was an unnecessary step. But oh well, I text her to "remember" her that we were going out that day and at the same time prepare the grounds for when I try to pull to her place or suggest going there directly:

Me: Hey, I'm gonna have to leave my place now. I'm have some issues to take care of now, but they're quick; I'll still go there. Did you get off work yet, by the way?

Her (15 minutes later. It's almost 5 pm now): I got off work about 2 pm, then I had some things to do, then I went to my Yoga class and got home 30 mins ago. [I don't know what the fuck that means since she didn't warned any of this to me, so I just go along. I'm definitively thinking it would be better to have suggested we meet at her place since I would drive there and that's it. So I screen for that once again.]

Me: Do you do Yoga? Nice! [I'm planning to do it myself, so that's genuine]
Me: They're doing a renovation at my place, it's a mess. Do you have drinks at your place?

Her: Nope
Her: We drank it all on Saturday Lol
Her: I'm leaving home now [WTF? So she's not going to flake? Now I'm on the fence if I suggest going to her place over text or do it over coffee. She's already going out so I stick with my original plan.]

Me: Okay, see you there in 30.

I still have to go buy condoms so I get there 5 minutes after her. I spot her and start walking towards the table. She's sitting on a square table so I grab a seat by her side so that I can touch her. It's uncomfortable keep looking diagonally to her, but whatever. I turn a little bit and move on.

Me: So you do Yoga... I wouldn't know!

Her: Yeah! I started 7-8 weeks ago. (Goes on describe how she had to take 4 showers today because the Yoga room has to be hot for the muscle to relax and she was sweating as fuck, etc.)

Me: So what's the weirdest position you can do? [Baiting for sexual frame]

Her: Haha, well, I can do (describes position)

Me: Whoa, I wouldn't be able to do it in 2 months into Yoga, I'm inflexible as fuck. But then again, woman tend to be more flexible than men because they're doing these weird positions since they're 16 [I mean sexual positions; she gets it]

Her: Laughs

I'm trying to lead the conversation to sex as much as I can. I can't remember for the life of me how I lead it into talking about drinks, bar vs parties and beer vs vodka, but this was going where I wanted it to go. I'm letting her do all the talk, asking questions that lead to sexual answers and looking for windows all the time; I'm still very sloppy in regards to transition from one window to another but so far I haven't missed a single one of them.

So the first one I got her talking was about how much she goes out to drink.

Her: Well, during the semester I tend to go out less. But now I go out to drink at least, like, once a week. Actually I'm going out even less than that now that I have a boyfriend.

Holy fuck. This caught me completely off guard. I'm sure I hesitated for a few seconds before internalizing that she had a motherfucking boyfriend after all this compliance and escalation windows. I'm confused. Did she actually think that I was just "wanting to hangout?" I'm not sure how hard this is going to be, but fuck it. I still wanna push to my limits so I swallow it and proceed completely unfazed.

Me: So do you prefer clubs or bars?

Her: I prefer bars nowadays, but I used to go clubbing every week a few years ago!

Me: Seriously? Why?

Her: Because I was younger... I was like 19. I got tired of the loud music, people packed in this tiny space and random dudes getting their hands all over me. In bars I just go there and drink with my friends and have a good time

Me: Haha, what kind of shit you used to do back then?

Her: (Told me one or two stories about the shit she used to do)

Me: (Told her another story so we could relate and I could openly state that I like sex through storytelling)
Me: Haha, it's funny how at that crucial moment you feel uncertain of doing something, but it turns out as an amazing life experience that you remember years after, like you're doing now. Life is much better when you embrace moments like this and learn to enjoy them [like sleeping with me tonight]

Her: Yeaah! I had a boyfriend when I was like 16, then I broke up with him and starting dating another guy, who the became my boyfriend until I turned 18. And from 18 to 22 I can tell you that I damn sure enjoyed life!

Me: Haha, that's awesome. What's the craziest thing you ever did?

Her: I... I had sex on the beach (sly smile; not for me, but remembering the situation probably)

Me: So how did it happen?

Her: Me and a couple of friends were travelling to XYZ place and we end up making couples and hooking up with each other as well haha (she's making reference to the story I told her earlier)

OK, so I have hooked up with CuteRoomate in the past, but failed to escalate it to the bedroom. She didn't become cold near me, but she didn't respond my texts anymore so I stopped sending them. She' very girly and naive, so she still treats me well if we meet each other on the hallway. I'm pretty sure Girl doesn't know this because they weren't roommates at the time. But since I had hooked up with CuteRoommate in the past, I more-or-less knew who their group of friends were (Girl was part of it), so I just assume Girl traveled with the same group in an effort to discover if her boyfriend is someone from the group, in which case will make my seduction x10 harder.

Me: So CuteRoommate was there as well?

Her: Nah, she wasn't. But this was actually a good thing, she's very (sexually) immature and would end with our fun [gotcha, so it was the same group]

Me: Yup, that's her. So this was something that happened there or you guys were hooking up before that?

Her: Actually... I was hooking up with Guy #1 long before that trip. [Guy #1 was part of the group]
Her: (Tell the story of how they hooked up for almost an entire year and she was in love with this guy and how she did things she thought she'd do and felt things she never thought she'd feel, but in April he left to live abroad.)
Her: ... but then I thought, "does it make sense miss him so much when he's there meeting other girls? so I moved on"

So good thing this guy is out of the picture and she has moved on already. I might make it tonight. Keep in mind that I'm summarizing for you guys. I lost myself in the timeline, but by now she had already told me that she knew her current boyfriend for 2 years prior to they effectively start going out. She told me that she knew that he liked her, but friendzoned him for close to two years since she was hooking up with Guy #1 during last year, and by what she told me, her boyfriend is a typical Nice Guy. Moving on with the conversation:

Me: And that's why you have a boyfriend after all this time being single?

Her: Actually, it feels kinda weird... I don't feel like I'm in a relationship. I don't know how to behave, like, he says we're boyfriends but I don't quite see it that way [Okay, I assume this is a huge motherfucking escalation window screaming at me now. Time to pull.]

Me: Haha, I know what you mean. So hey, I don't know if ThirdRoommate would be pissed, but what do you say we get some beers at the store right there and head to your place and chill? As I told you, my place is a mess

Her: Okay. Yeah, don't worry about her, she's super cool (keeps telling the story of how ThirdRoommate is super cool. I'm not paying attention as I wanna get out of there ASAP)

So I ask for the bill, she pays (I didn't get anything) and we walk 30 secs to this store right by the side and grab a couple of beers. When we're paying, I'm holding the beers and turn to her and say:

Me: How you're gonna pay your half? I'm using credit card, so if you're using money let me pay first.

Dude, she froze for a good 5 seconds. Like, she was shocked. I don't know if the didn't hear me and expected me to repeat or if she was sincerely shocked. But then she paid and we continue talking and she was cool. Nothing changed.

So I walked her back to the coffee shop parking lot and we got into my car and went to her place.

Her Place

Now this is where I don't know if I fucked up so much that I lost her, if she genuinely was on the fence or if the shit that happened was outside of my control.

So we get there, put the beers on the fridge and she said

You can sit there on the couch, make yourself comfortable

And goes to her bedroom get her notebook. We grab the beers, she sits by my side, show me a cool video and ThirdRoommate get back home. Fuck, I'm hoping she realizes what's going on, go to her bedroom and just ignore the fuck out of us. Doesn't happen.

She get's there, we get introduced to each other, and they start talking about random things that happened during the day. ThirdRoommate is cool, but fuck me. She then goes to her bedroom real quick and came back right after saying that she was going to spend the whole night with Michael Scofield (from Prison Break). I just shut the fuck up and hope that she goes to her bedroom, turn on her notebook and forget about us. Doesn't happen.

They literally started talking about TV shows and eventually I had to be included in the conversation, even though I was hoping for this conversation to die. ThirdRoommate was getting more comfortable over 25-minute frames (we were seated and she was standing; then she sat on the edge of the couch; then she got herself comfortable and sat next to me) and the sexual vibe was pretty much dead at this point. There's nothing I could do at this point but hope for the best.

After a good 1-1.5 hour of useless conversation, Girl goes to the bathroom, I stay with ThirdRoommate and say absolutely NOTHING, hoping that she'd do exactly what she did:

Well, I'm gonna go watch Prison Break

She goes, but her bedroom is the nearest to the living room and she doesn't close all the way her door. Girl comes back from bathroom.

Now, we're awkwardly positioned on this couch, sexual tension is completely off and I have to build it again from scratch. This is where I fuck up again and again. After hopping around from topic to topic I eventually get her talking about her past, and her religious family, and how "dirty" she feels for doing "something". I cut her off there:

Me: What's that?

Her: Wait, let me finish this story first

Me: Kay

Her: (Proceeds telling story that has no sexual underlings)

Me: So what is it that makes you feel dirty? [From now on, every line of this conversation has a 2-second delay before any of us talk. Tension is building up]

Her: Weell... I can't tell you that.

Me: Why?

Her: Because I still feel dirty...

Me: You know that's absolutely nothing you can say that would shock me or make me judge you, right?

Her: (Turns her face to me and we were really close already) "Have you ever had a threesome?"

While that statement doesn't shock me, as I have already inferred that she was okay with being sexual with other girls because during the coffee she told me that she french kissed a girl, the fact that the information came as a question caught me off guard. So I'm now in a "I-look-like-a-pussy" position:

Me: Well, no

Her: I had... And I discovered girls are good too.

Me: (Imagine this being said in the most stuttery way possible) Well, I don't think you're dirty because of that... in fact, if I had the opportunity I'd jump right in. It must have been a lot of fun... tell me more [We're still in this awkward position where we can't quite move freely so I can't go in for the kiss that easily. That said, I'm waiting on the opportunity to use Franco's kissing technique. I'm looking desperately for IOIs so I can feel at ease going for the kiss, but she doesn't look to my mouth or anything other than my face the entire time.]

Her: (Tells the story; she was 19, sober, had to get to know the guy and the girl for an entire year before finally doing it; she's still holding the beer bottle.)

This is my first HUGE fuck-up. Following Franco's script, I grab the beer bottle from her hands and put it on the floor next to me, then, when turning back to her I hesitate for a split second and at the same time she says, quite "WTF-y":

Her: Why did you do that to my beer? [This fatalities me and I get nervous and completely hesitated now]

Me: I don't know... [Ugh, it's painful as motherfucker to type this...]

This is super awkward now. She then have nothing to talk about and I'm too busy thinking that "this is it, I'm doomed; I lost the window... will it ever open again? Probably not, this was such a big fuck-up..."

She then gets her phone and start showing me Yoga poses that I'm not even paying attention. I decide I'll persevere until I bore the fuck out of her and she kicks me out. If I leave now I KNOW for a fact that she will NEVER ever look me in the eyes again. So I have nothing to lose and wait for another opportunity.

I then get my phone, try to banter with her saying this or that position of Yoga look like this or that position of Kama Sutra, but this isn't going anywhere. There's no tension, nor anything. After 30-45 minutes things start to go sexual again, she lays on the couch and I'm seated next to her thinking that I might get a second chance. There's no way I can go for the kiss and escalate from there in the position I'm at now. So I keep re-positioning myself and end up laying in a very uncomfortable position, but at least our faces are in front of each other... Upside down, but in front of each other.

I'm now saying that I wouldn't judge woman for liking sex and pretty much would prefer to have sex with a girl on the first date as opposed to years (like she said she "needs" to in order to be comfortable).

Me: Girls like sex, I like sex, so no judging. In fact, guys hook up with girls all the time, and they're the the alphas and shit; girl do the the same, they're a slut. I think that unfair, to be honest...
Her: You're so damn right! I think you're 1 in 1 million thinking like that. Like, I'm not even exaggerating.

This goes on until she says something and we just stare each other for 5 motherfucking seconds and I don't go for the kiss because there wasn't much I could do after that due to our awkward. Being fair, the majority of the reason was that I was being a pussy too.

She then goes to the bathroom again. I'm already there for at least 4 hours, so I give myself 60 seconds once she gets back from the bathroom to kiss her. She's back, lying on the couch and I'm seated looking to her. Around 3-5 minutes gone by and my opportunity isn't there yet. For the third fucking time, I manage to put on some sexual context in the conversations and then I just say fuck, I'm going for it.

So I get closer and kiss her. I'm now almost on top of her and she kisses very gently, and right after the 5-second mark I get the impression that she's going to push me off. But she backs up and hide her face with her hands.

Her: Fuck, I'm sorry. I can't do this.

Me: Do what? (I move her hand from her mouth and continue kissing her)

Her: Seriously, I can't (Backs up a little bit more)

Me: You can't even give me a good reason why you can't do it (now I'm on top of her and we keep making out for a longer time now.)

But I'm supporting all my body weight on my right elbow and eventually I start to shake because I'm trying to escalate and get my hands over her but there's no space on the couch and it seemed that she was getting comfortable with the kissing, and I didn't want to stop. She gets up and says

Her: Why are you shaking?

Me: Because I'm supporting my whole body weigh in this awkward position

Now we just got up and sat next to each other and RIGHT AFTER ThirdRoommate gets out of the room and start asking her a bunch of questions about how to get somewhere she had to go tomorrow. ThirdRoomate closes the door. Girl turns back to me.

Her: I can't do this, like, I know I don't want to but I don't know how to say to you

Me: You can't even give me a good reason. You're completely on the fence, otherwise you wouldn't have let me kiss you three times

Her: Look, I really liked today, having coffee and talking to you, I really did. And I liked that you felt attracted to me, but I can't do this.

Me: (we're now seating parallel to each other, looking forward. Every time I try to go in for the kiss she turns her face the other way) You're still on the fence to me. You're not even sure if that's what you want. Remember that we said about that crucial moment that we were glad that we go there and did it?

Her: Yeah, I really meant that, but like in general situations. I can't do that now [with a "boyfriend" she'd been together for a month after friendzone him for 2 years]

She was wearing shorts and during this whole time I had my arm over her with my hands on her legs and she was okay with it. At least she didn't say anything. ThirdRoommate opens the door again and start asking more questions about how to get somewhere and then finally closes the door and goes to bed.

Me: You still can't give me a good reason. You're clearly on the fence... How can you know that you won't wake up tomorrow feeling great about doing this now? You said yourself you don't even feel like a girlfriend

Her: Look, you promise me you won't be mad if I tell you the truth?

Me: I promise [I was expecting something like: I think you're ugly/disgusting/weak as motherfucker or anything like that]

Her: I don't wanna wake up tomorrow and feel bad for it. It's disrespectful to him, like, it isn't that I don't feel as a girlfriend, is that I don't I don't know how to behave like one after all this time being single. I don't wanna do it just because it's on the beginning and it might not pan out... things are finally working for me now.

At this point I'm not sure if I should persevere, if she's giving a legitimate reason or token resistance, and I can't think a single way of overcoming LMR. The only thing I can think of is reading somewhere here to just keep giving her random reasons, but I can't think of anything to say right now. So I pathetically just repeat myself.

Me: You're still on the fence to me

Her: Yeah, yeah, I'm on the fence! That's why I don't wanna do it. I'm not absolutely certain about it... I'm a passive person; if things can stay as they are, I'd pretty much prefer it that way...

Her: You promise you aren't going to be mad?

Me: Of course not haha

Her: I don't want to have sex with you

Then I paused for a good 3 seconds, looked her in the eye and decided that I wouldn't push any further. I'd just relax, and maybe try again later if I think it's worth the shot.

Me: (saying as I was laying back into the couch from our seating-on-the edge position): Well, okay, you're not comfortable with it I'm not going to force you do anything you don't want to

Her: ... like, really? Like you're not mad and shit?

Me: (I "shrugged" with my face and shook my head to say "no") It wouldn't be any good if you didn't want, so there's no point

Her: Whoa, I'm... Whoa. I'm so glad you're not mad...

Me: What did you expect? That I would get up yelling and cursing? Haha

She then lays right next to me put her arm on my chest and I put my hands on her legs. She's not reacting. I'm touching her legs all the time and she's okay... but I'm confused because although she's okay with this, she's not giving me IOIs and not looking at me like she wanted to be kissed again. I realize I'm looking at her mouth all the time but she's not doing it.

So I wait, wait, wait... and nothing. I kept deep-diving about her past and sexual experiences, but I got no IOIs so I don't know if she just got comfortable talking to me about sex/personal stuff or if she wants the D. I'm there for hours already, it's 2-3 pm in the morning, I'm tired and want to go home and get some sleep but I'm mindlessly forcing myself to stay until I can't anymore. She keeps looking the time at her phone all the time, and I know she wants to sleep just as bed as I want, but she doesn't know how to kick me out there and I'm not touching on the subject. That aside, we genuinely are having a good conversation, but I don't know what to do anymore.

She doesn't seem to autoreject me, so now I'm thinking maybe I can try again another time... and I'm tired, I can tell she's tired, it's 5 am in the morning and I don't even know if I have the gas for sex and I'm certain she'd say she's tired if I try something. So I just go home and crash on my bed.

Before I started writing this hours ago, I sent her a playful text to calibrate her response. She sends me a pic of a anti-inflammatory/pain relief spray making reference to her weird aches on the day before because of her yoga class. I say that I didn't even go to the gym because I was that afraid her syndrome would creep up on me. Now she just sent me a selfie lying on the floor with her micro-yoga shorts with her huge ass popping out of her shorts with a kissy face. I playfully replied

Me: Nice
Me: Couldn't wait to practice for those Kama Sutra poses, huh?

Her: (Right away) Hahaha
Her: ¬_¬

So she's playfully texting me. Still no auto-rejection (which I thought would be the case). Still, I'm not under the impression that she'll keep doing it if I stop feeding the conversation (i.e. I don't see her coming out of her way to chase me, but she's still playfully texting me).

Now... WHAT THE FUCK? I'm completely questioning my ability to recognize escalation windows and specially IOIs after this. She said all the LMR stuff like she didn't expect for a single moment that I was going to try to kiss her (and eventually bed her) while accepting all my "advances" until that point. Maybe she didn't even see me as a lover since the beginning? Really, like... what the fuck?

P.S.

She's going on a trip this Saturday... I'd like to make up for my lack of masculinity yesterday and fuck her properly before that trip. I'm horrible at setting up second dates because things doesn't seem like they're moving forward. I can't invite her over "for a movie" because of logistics. It would have to be on her place or elsewhere, but they just moved in there so there's no TV there yet, so no movies, so no plausible deniability. Can't think of a way to pull that one off.

A thing to note here is that after yesterday I really started to like her as a person. She's a cool girl. She told me some deep shit about herself and I respect her x10 more now than I did before yesterday. I'll probably cross with her every now and then and would hate to put her in auto-rejection towards me just because I forced my way uphill and wasted my energy to fucking lose the battle. So I don't know if play the "nah, I'm cool" and proceed to kinda "sexually-friendzone her" and maybe wait for a better opportunity or push hard as fuck now.

I'll wait you guys opinions since I'm sure I can't see things clearly now!

 

[demainor]

Re: FR : I Was THIS Close to Bed Her in a Huge Uphill Battle

my opinion man, is that yu wasted this. yu had excellent (according to me) windows but yu hesitated to pull the trigger since yu cldnt see any IOI. Fuck IOIs, read the Assume Attraction article, has put me in lots of awkward positions but helped clear out the fog of indecision as to when l should act.

an example of when l feel yu threw away a golden opportunity is when she was lying on yu after yu tld her it was cool and yu get mad. she literary put herself in ur hands, and l have a feeling had yu escalated you would have had a great example of how girls actions speak clearer than their words.

in short bro, yu did great, but am sure once yu are back into the beast l've seen in ur previous post, yu'll realize that yu cld have had a lay report frm this. pull the fucking trigger and let the dice fly high.

happy huntings

 

[demainor]

rereading that comment, 2 thngs, meant don't get mad at second paragraph and sounds a tad too critical for my taste. l thnk yu did a great job getting there.

 

[journeyman]

I will let someone more experienced comment on if this is a situation that can be saved or if you should forget her but I want to congratulate you overall. Seemed like a great job up until to the point the roommate decided to be social...

Especially this

Me: How you're gonna pay your half? I'm using credit card, so if you're using money let me pay first.

is something that to my opinion requires some serious balls to do and it served you great, imagine paying and not getting laid in the end...

 

[Smurf]

Hey man!

First off, good shit sticking in there so long

I'd love an expert to get in on this, I feel like there's a lot to be said here.

I'm sure there's something to be said out of the first part that would've helped with the LMR later, but to me it looks pretty solid. Good transitions here up until the date it seems.

Is diagonal sitting that awkward? I think it would help make touch less awkward and you could ease into flirty eye contact.

It seems like she used the boyfriend comment on the date as a shit test. Never thought of it like that haha. Looks like she was seeing how you would react I guess.

UGH MY ROOMMATE DID THAT SHIT TO ME ONCE. I hate when they won't leave. It seems like you handled it as best you could, but god that shit is sooo annoying.

That threesome comment, you handled nice, but I would just say you did, even if you haven't.

IOI's have been confusing me lately as well. The last girl I fucked only have me one or two out of three days of knowing her. The best thing to do,like demeanor said, is.just go for it.

When you grabbed her beer, and she questioned you, you should've went for it anyway. Maybe added a "shh" and gone in.

I think you should've pushed after you showed her how non reactive you were to her "not wanting to have sex with you". If she's reciprocating touch like that then why not.

This was awesome to read. I just think you needed to push that little bit more

Jake.

 

[Big Daddy]

@demainor

Nah man, it's cool. No offenses taken. I didn't even think it was that harsh - I really dropped the ball there.

I didn't push any further because once I said it was cool, I didn't know if that's was a legitimate reason or not. So I thought "well, let's throw away everything that she just told me and look for non-verbal cues so I can calibrate whether is okay to push or if I'm going to look like a weirdo." We then changed the subject but looking back, I think I should taken her arm out of chest, turned to her and, without saying a word, go for the kiss again.

The article you was talking about really gave me a refreshing view on this matter. That wasn't the only moment where I should've pushed harder. Things that I'm remembering now that I didn't even write here

For anyone wondering which article demainor is referring to, it's this one: Why You Absolutely Need to Assume Attraction with Women

@sakbishop

Thank you, man! I really appreciate it. I came here and wrote all this shit in one go (I now realize there's a lot of typos and weird sentences. Hopefully you guys can understand what I was trying to say) feeling confused and mad at me for being so close, but you guys make me strive for the best again. I'm damn sure that if I had managed to escalate the kiss properly she wouldn't stop me after that.

Still, I don't know if it's possible to clean up this mess until Saturday; If someone has something to say about the subject, let me know. I think I'll step into auto-rejection if I wait any longer than tomorrow (plus, she's going on her trip, so that's what I have)

Plus, I laughed hard at this:

imagine paying and not getting laid in the end..

That would be awful indeed hahaha

 

[Big Daddy]

Yo Jake, thanks for stopping by man

I'm eagerly waiting to see if an expert drop a post around here well - I felt there were a lot of grey areas in this interaction. Like, that "I have a boyfriend" announcement... I can't really say it was out of the blue, but I don't know what that was supposed to mean as well. One thing that I didn't mention that might be pertinent is that her BF wasn't around (on a trip or visiting his parents/grandparents or something of that nature, I can't remember).

I'm focusing on being nonreactive to tests of this nature so I just pushed through. That thing you said handling the LMR early, yeah, I agree with you. I don't know if ignoring that boyfriend statement seemed like "Whoa, he's not even fazed" or "Well, I think he's just having a conversation like a friend."

But at the same time, her reaction to my kiss wasn't "WHAT THE FUCK?", like completely unexpected. I felt she really was on the fence, but I realized that I was out of ideas and she needed a harder push than what I was doing there. I remember even dropping a "look, if I leave now you might wake up tomorrow regretting 'that crucial moment' that you didn't push through" and I can't remember what she said because I just ignored it. She didn't tell me an "actually, I wouldn't regret" but even if she had I'd just ignore it and stay there.

On diagonal sitting, she later told me that she found sitting side-to-side to awkward, she preferred sitting in front of each other. She even mentioned that I was sitting diagonally to her, but I just laughed and brushed it off. Even if I was there early, I'd wait on the parking lot so I could choose where to sit, and I'd sit next to her so that I could touch her.

That threesome comment, you handled nice, but I would just say you did, even if you haven't.

Hahahaha thanks dude. But feel free to call me on my shit when you feel you need to!

IOI's have been confusing me lately as well. The last girl I fucked only have me one or two out of three days of knowing her. The best thing to do,like demeanor said, is.just go for it.

When you grabbed her beer, and she questioned you, you should've went for it anyway. Maybe added a "shh" and gone in.

Yup, if you ask me what I was afraid of, I wouldn't know. I think I was genuinely in doubt if she'd want to kill me or not if I pushed. Before saying "I don't wanna have sex with you" she paused for a second, turned to me, then said this. I thought it'd be worse if I reacted, so I just chilled. But in the back of my mind I was looking for something that would clear my doubts (an IOI) on whether she meant it or if it was just girl talk. Guess I should've ignored that and pushed harder.

I'm certain that if I got the point where she was turned on and just got up and said "let's go to your bedroom," she'd comply.

I'll keep in mind to push harder next time.

 

[ray_zorse]

Great reply, TBH I hadn't read the whole report yet because it's long and I didn't have an opportunity, but radeng's reply points out some of the highlights. It makes me realize that I don't really have any game to speak of with sexually experienced chicks. Because I mainly go for shy and inexperienced, I'm really keen to grab some reference points like in this report. I'm not sure I would have passed any of those tests. Getting her telling sex stories etc, plus creating intrigue with the "I never kiss (2 girls) and tell" type line... not revealing too much... I want to try it. Maybe if I continue with my nightgame instead of just daygame I'd have more of a chance? Actually there's a girl's no. in my phone who sounds pretty sexually crazy, I'm not sure if I want to activate it though, because I'm worried about painful sex haha, the makeout was painful enough. Plus I seem to be in a r/ship which is a real PITA. But anyway I'm looking forward to reading the full report. Thanks.
Ray

 

[Big Daddy]

@radeng

This in itself, may not be a total "escalation window" per se, but if you can increase attraction here by reacting to the situation in a dominant way.

It sounds like you reacted pretty neutrally which is fine, nothing wrong with that, but, here would have been a good time to increase your touching. Do something a little silly in touching.

I'll keep this in mind. Thanks for the touch!

then you should def use this admission as a chance to get a little intent out there and use some chase frames or challenges so she has to qualify herself. A couple of good ones that come to my mind:
"Thats what happens when you get a bore friend! All the fun, out the window!"
"Swhoo Im glad you have someone to take you out for dinner and buy you nice necklaces and shit after seducing strange boys in a coffee shop!"

Fuck, thank you for this pointer, dude. That's what I was looking for. At the time I didn't feel like ignoring it made things bad, but I was sure that I could've done better.

This is not just a better response to her test, but actually a way for me to gauge how much she sees me as a lover. Ignoring it was fine, but I kinda questioned myself "was this a test or you really don't have a clue that I'm here to fuck you?"

I'll have to make some of these in advance though; I wouldn't want to sound like a creeper because even now, looking backwards, I'm not sure if she ever considered hooking up with me until I kissed her, so I'm not certain how she'd react to that second line. But you are totally correct.

When it comes to sex stories, you are allowed to talk a bit more because you want to portray that side of yourself.

I kept this in mind so things wouldn't be extremely disproportional, it's just that they'd make this report much longer and I was typing in one go. When I knew I was going to make a hook in the future (such as the "crucial moment") I told her a story to a) up the sexuality a bit, making her more comfortable telling me her deepest, juiciest stories b) leading that conversation to where I wanted, so she'd tell similarly sexual stories. I also told micro-stories every now and then to maintain a fluid conversational vibe.

Thirdroomate really fucked your flow up, could have fucked anyones up, really great job on sticking in there and not giving up! Seriously.

Thank you, man! This means a lot, really. Well, when I got there ThirdRoommate's bedroom door was closed and I was about to ask if we were alone when we got comfortable, but then she got home.

memorize the, "I never kiss two girls at once and tell line" and then refuse to go into anymore depth.

Haha, that's a good one. Will do. I'll borrow some points from your reply as well, some thoughts are really congruent with how I'd ideally handle this if I knew it was coming.

You should have kept retrying the kiss until she either just got pissed, or gave in. And the way she seemed, she wanted to give in. Really really really badly. SHE WAS ON THE FENCE. It was your job to get her on your side of the fence, instead you were like "well, your on the fence, I guess you should prob just hop to your bfs side of the fence."

You're totally right, dude. It seems that we have a consensus that I should've pushed harder. I had never a woman look me in the eyes and say that she wouldn't have sex with me so blatantly, so I wasn't sure what she really meant (serious or token resistance) and if she was going to kick me out if I kept persisting all the time.

The kiss happened around 2-3 am I'd say. I know it would've been optimal trying again that 5 minutes after she told me it wouldn't happen, but do you think it would be okay if I tried again 4-5 am?

Why are your logistics so bad?

My younger brother is living here with me until August (I hope!), so I'm sharing my bedroom for now... And I'm not exactly in the position to ask for a favor from him ;/ And I pretty much can't do parties here because my neighbors are lame as fuck.

WIth that in mind, do you think it would be okay to go for a more casual date (such as grabbing something to eat) and try to escalate (way quicker than before) things in the car or that would be a step backwards? I'm probably going to drive, so if I can do this without drinking, I'd take that option... I'm not fond of escalating things in the car as well, I don't like it that much. But if it works, fuck it, I'm doing it.

I just sent her a text to warm things up when I ask her out again tomorrow, hopefully by then someone has said something about this hehe

EDIT: She just replied and I'm impressed that she's still not in auto-rejection mode. I'm definitively trying again tomorrow if she's up.

Also, I'm not sure if she would be okay with me going there again without a time constraint, specially after staying there for ~8 hours and refusing to leave until I couldn't stay anymore hahaha

@Ray

Thank you dude! Yah, I wanted to write while fresh so I would remember the details. Let me hear what you think when you read the whole thing, though!

EDIT: Go ahead and do it! This girl isn't a COMPLETE party-crazy-get-drunk-every-time girl, but she had her fair share of sexual adventures. She told she wouldn't sleep with a guy she met 15 minutes ago (I was about to prove her wrong... let's see what I can do tomorrow) because she'd be afraid the guy would judge her, so she's always making sure it doesn't happen.

But with friends/guys she felt comfortable hooking up with, she had her fair share of fun. The trend topics from her stories were "drink, drink, drink, sex, crazy, partying naked on the beach, drama, sex, sex." To be honest, I'm very comfortable talking about sex with pretty much any girl, unless she is overwhelmingly more experienced/crazy than I am. Maybe I'd slip in some instances in that case.

My problem would be the exact opposite: I'd have trouble turning down the sex talk that often. And I fucking love nerdy girls... something to work on.

 

[NarrowJ]

BigDaddy!

This wasn't bad at all, because you did quite well up until you isolated her at her place. Great learning experience subsequent to that too, even if you did screw up.

On the front end of this, you did a great job of throwing in a lot of subtle sexual frames and keeping things light and fun, while still building tension. You also picked up on a few subtle windows and hit those pretty effortlessly. It wasn't your not being able to pick up on her interest or opportunities that were presented, but more that you just botched a couple of those escalation attempts, got nervous, and then couldn't recover from it.

It's 4:30 and she didn't text me. I'm starting to think that she's going to flake, as I'm going through this annoying flaking phase. I'm starting to think that I should've proposed we chill in her place yesterday. The coffee was an unnecessary step. But oh well, I text her to "remember" her that we were going out that day and at the same time prepare the grounds for when I try to pull to her place or suggest going there directly:

Yeah, I've learned pretty recently never to put the onus on the girl to text before a date. She either won't because (a) she wants YOU to lead, (b) she's too shy / not assertive enough to do so, or (c) she read in a self-help / women's dating book that she shouldn't text first.

On the last one, she'll eventually get comfortable with you (usually) and will forget the "advice" and start texting you. Usually after you sleep with her.

Anyway, I never tell a girl to text me, nor do I tell them I am going to text them. I just do it. Send an anti-flake text the day of, something funny even, like: "So [place] at [time]. Better bring your A game, Julie haha. "

Holy fuck. This caught me completely off guard. I'm sure I hesitated for a few seconds before internalizing that she had a motherfucking boyfriend after all this compliance and escalation windows.

Haha, yeah. That can paralyze you a bit, when it's so unexpected. Hopefully your reaction wasn't too outward, as you never want a girl to see that. Always have to dial back and collect yourself as quickly as possible here. These are one of those where it actually IS good to have a canned response, so you can just quip back at her some sarcastic response (but a "fun" sarcastic response) that lets her know that her boyfriend isn't an obstacle for you).

Me: Haha, it's funny how at that crucial moment you feel uncertain of doing something, but it turns out as an amazing life experience that you remember years after, like you're doing now. Life is much better when you embrace moments like this and learn to enjoy them [like sleeping with me tonight]

Her: Yeaah! I had a boyfriend when I was like 16, then I broke up with him and starting dating another guy, who the became my boyfriend until I turned 18. And from 18 to 22 I can tell you that I damn sure enjoyed life!

Seems like she's intentionally painting a very vivid picture for you, here! Great job on spiking the emotion there, and then turning it into a transition to isolate her.

Dude, she froze for a good 5 seconds. Like, she was shocked. I don't know if the didn't hear me and expected me to repeat or if she was sincerely shocked. But then she paid and we continue talking and she was cool. Nothing changed.

Normally, I tell guys- don't just "not pay" just to "do it". If you have a $80 dinner bill, then it's going to be expected. For things like ice cream, a six pack of beer, coffee, et cetera... just pay. But in your case, this is more like a hangout date, so I'd probably expect her to throw me a couple bucks if the cost of the beer was more than $10 or so. Less than $10, I'd just pay and be on with things. I'm not sure here. It seems like your delivery was more the miscreant than anything, or I may be reading into the tone it was said in the wrong way, i.e. "How you gonna pay your half?"

Anyway, her reaction was a bit telling.

The whole part where you guys sat there with the friend for 90 minutes threw things off a bit. I just had this happen last night, where I was out with a girl and a friend of hers saw us and sat down at our table and "joined us for drinks", and I just kept thinking to myself how rude it was. But, being that these girls live together in the same house and probably share a television and such, I guess it was something you just have to deal with.

Pretty much all of the rest of the report, yeah. You got caught off guard and thinks got a bit awkward, and then you didn't pull the trigger on a kiss a couple of times, and it killed your momentum to the point where (like you said) you had to pretty much make yourself do it at a point in time that wasn't optimal. Sucks, but fuck it man; you don't learn if you don't try! So kudos for still going for the kiss/make-out.

That whole part with the nervousness as she told her threesome story and the botched kiss attempt(s) was really hard to read, and I don't mean that in a "wow you really fucked this up BAD" type of way, but more in a "wow I've been squarely in your shoes before and know how you feel" type of way.

I'm sure you are aware of this, but here:

Her: I can't do this, like, I know I don't want to but I don't know how to say to you

Me: You can't even give me a good reason. You're completely on the fence, otherwise you wouldn't have let me kiss you three times

Her: Look, I really liked today, having coffee and talking to you, I really did. And I liked that you felt attracted to me, but I can't do this.

Me: (we're now seating parallel to each other, looking forward. Every time I try to go in for the kiss she turns her face the other way) You're still on the fence to me. You're not even sure if that's what you want. Remember that we said about that crucial moment that we were glad that we go there and did it?

Her: Yeah, I really meant that, but like in general situations. I can't do that now [with a "boyfriend" she'd been together for a month after friendzone him for 2 years]

and more of it here:

Me: You still can't give me a good reason. You're clearly on the fence... How can you know that you won't wake up tomorrow feeling great about doing this now? You said yourself you don't even feel like a girlfriend

Her: Look, you promise me you won't be mad if I tell you the truth?

Me: I promise [I was expecting something like: I think you're ugly/disgusting/weak as motherfucker or anything like that]

Her: I don't wanna wake up tomorrow and feel bad for it. It's disrespectful to him, like, it isn't that I don't feel as a girlfriend, is that I don't I don't know how to behave like one after all this time being single. I don't wanna do it just because it's on the beginning and it might not pan out... things are finally working for me now.

You already know this, but you'll never win using logic in these situations. In this situation you can't come off so serious. It's better to be flirtatious and challenging, use your body and non-verbals to get what you want here. Instead of the asking her questions and trying to "talk her into it", you need to do something more playful here. Push her away and poke some fun at the situation, i.e., "Ok fine, quit making out with me then" with a devious smile and confident eye contact, and then continue regular conversation like it's no big deal, and then try again in a few minutes. If you get all serious about it, then it does become a big deal to her no matter what you've discussed earlier. If you're totally NOT serious about it, and make the escalation fun in a playful way that challenges her, that's what has worked best for me.

In this case, there were a few other variables that made this much more difficult (the roommate, in particular). Like you said, an uphill battle after that point, especially when you start introducing missed windows for physical escalation into the process.

Now... WHAT THE FUCK? I'm completely questioning my ability to recognize escalation windows and specially IOIs after this. She said all the LMR stuff like she didn't expect for a single moment that I was going to try to kiss her (and eventually bed her) while accepting all my "advances" until that point. Maybe she didn't even see me as a lover since the beginning? Really, like... what the fuck?

I don't think you messed up recognizing opportunities, it just seemed like you messed up on actually acting on them. You can partly blame yourself for a couple of them, but the roommate didn't help. Plus, you stayed there far too long in my opinion. I would not have laid there next to her for so long. I would have went home and went to bed. Rewarding her with more of your time in this situation is no good.

And as to her texting you still and planning another date/hangout, I don't think her responding to your texts and sending you a picture where you can kinda see her butt a little bit means that she's interested. I think you've put yourself squarely in an orbiter position. Best to forget about this girl, and use it as a huge learning tool. Next time, plan logistics for sex a bit better if possible (no roommate), and be more assertive in taking that first dive into physical escalation (the kiss). The nervousness you experienced when she told the threesome story: that stuff just goes away over time. Both positive and negative experiences work to remove that type of feeling/reaction, so you're good there. Just having the experience works wonders for things like that. And then, handling her resistance in a more playful, sexy & challenging way is another lesson to learn here.

You actually did great on the front end of this: the approach, the texting / lead up and you seemed to do well on the date until you got to her place. Was actually super impressed with the way you handled all of that.



J.J.

 

[ray_zorse]

So ultimately decide it's worth a shot and I follow her path to our department building. I'm going in obviously looking for her as there NOTHING I could do there and that building was fucking desert.

Very fucking ballsy, a perfect example of how an intermediate-to-experienced seducer can just break all the rules and rely on his training and fundamentals to carry him.

I motion her to sit by my side and she sits VERY close to me so our arms are touching now. I don't think this is an IOI

Maybe, maybe not... I recall radeng's comments on this. My take is basically that incidental touch is very powerful and must be used and encouraged as much as possible. So I would've just calmly continued the conversation whilst being aware of the arm touch, not pulling away and if she pulled away (indicating it had become too much for her) I would have just tried to casually and frequently touch her with the outside of my arm whilst gesticulating or whatever. If she initiates incidental touch -> continue it. It's her way of saying she wants to touch you but she doesn't want it to be a "thing". Also, if I found she wasn't investing I would withdraw it as a punishment.

I lead them without saying anything to where my car is parked ... would you guys want a a ride?

Well played.

CuteRoommate

Yeah, interesting, I see that you were chase framing and screening for logistics and so on. I suppose that makes sense given you've mentioned later that your logistics are bad. But it sounds like it wasn't really necessary. TBH, chase and sexual framing is kind of a specialty of mine because I have a pretty quick wit and I like the idea of training myself to do stuff other people can't do... but in fact I have let it slide lately, because as radeng's pointed out to me, it really isn't necessary if you have a strong sexual vibe. In fact it can fuck things up, radeng's suggestion is only to engage in this kind of thing in the leadup to sex, be as normal as possible prior to the real date.

When did you number close her, by the way?

Me: What do you say we hangout then?

Setting up the logistics in small bites. I like it.

I'm starting to think that I should've proposed we chill in her place yesterday. The coffee was an unnecessary step.

Possibly. Given you had a 1-2 hour convo I think easy date wouldn't have been too jarring. But it's a tough call because it's hard to recover from refused easy-date. So I believe better safe than sorry. What I've been doing in such a situation, is setting it up for a park 50m from my home, then it's easy to pull from there if things go well.

She's already going out so I stick with my original plan.

ALWAYS stick with the original plan. There's nothing worse than double texting a girl and adding confusion and having her go to the wrong place and blah blah blah...

It's uncomfortable keep looking diagonally to her, but whatever. I turn a little bit and move on.

WTF, this is 100% ideal, it's how I set things up by preference. You can turn your body almost completely to her, you can put your hand on her knee, between her legs, etc... or you can turn away and stare into space... all completely naturally. If things are warming up slowly you can also use incidental arm touch, elbow, shoulder, feet...

asking questions that lead to sexual answers and looking for windows all the time; I'm still very sloppy in regards to transition from one window

Windows to sexual frame? I think you might be trying too hard here.

Holy fuck. This caught me completely off guard. I'm sure I hesitated for a few seconds before internalizing that she had a motherfucking boyfriend after all this compliance and escalation windows.

I get this all the time, though I agree it's unusual for her to throw it into the mix so late. It has been mentioned this might be a shit test... anyway, my strategy is just to look completely unfazed and say something like "oh, how long have you been going out together? / oh, how did you meet your boyfriend? / oh, is your boyfriend also Chinese?" ... the reason I do this is, it looks like of needy and uncalibrated to be putting all this energy into a seduction, and then suddenly switch it off if it looks like a fuck is not on the cards, makes her think "oh, I was just a piece of meat to him"... so if you feel the situation is unfavourable to seduction, subtly wind it down and gracefully leave later.

Also, I may be unusual in this, but I have absolutely no moral qualms with fucking a girl who has a bf, it's absolutely an issue for her and him, not something I need to be concerned with. Honestly, there are so many shades of grey... he might be cheating, they might not have had sex for months, she may be already cheating, etc, etc... Chase mentions that he kind of graduated from going after girls with bf's, he doesn't do it as a rule, and that's a good attitude to have if you're aiming for absolute abundance, seeing as a girl who'd cheat on her partner is probably not someone you would want to set up long term with... but for getting reference points it's totally fine.

Me: How you're gonna pay your half? I'm using credit card, so if you're using money let me pay first.

I wouldn't have done this. It feels uncalibrated. I think it might have hurt you later. Probably if you're going halvies it might be best to mention it as you enter the store "hey I drink a pretty expensive beer so how about we each get our own drinks" or possibly "how about you get a pack of smokes and I'll get the beer" (I don't smoke, usually I use this in terms of I'll buy the food and you choose some beer for us to drink, but I'm just mentioning this as a way to make going halvies seem a bit more natural). Franco has a pretty good take on this, which I have been applying, which is under no circumstances mention anything about money if you don't have to, good advice since it never helps you and can hurt. So if we're talking about 3 or 4 beers I would've just slapped my card down and said "my treat"... or maybe just hang back an extra second and see if she offers to pay? Another strategy I use often and which I really like, is "cash for compliance"... I give her a $20 and say "go and order for us, I'll have a XXX".

ThirdRoommate is cool, but fuck me. She then goes to her bedroom real quick and came back right after saying that she was going to spend the whole night with Michael Scofield (from Prison Break). I just shut the fuck up and hope that she goes to her bedroom, turn on her notebook and forget about us. Doesn't happen.

This was just really weak. Your girl is depending on you to isolate her. Make it happen. Be rude if you have to "hey ThirdRoommate... lets continue this later, I'm enjoying meeting you but XXX and I really just wanted to hangout together..." and then, lead your girl to her bedroom. Or something like that. Just remember: she'll be watching how you handle the situation and she'll make a judgement as to whether you're a weak man or a leader. She herself will just be passive and let it happen, whatever...

Her: (Turns her face to me and we were really close already) "Have you ever had a threesome?"

This has been well covered elsewhere. I probably would've FU'd here.

Her: Why did you do that to my beer?

Yeah, once committed to a course of action, follow through. Actually, no words necessary here. Just strong eye contact until she looks down. Then she KNOWS what's up. Although, I can't help thinking this was probably not a good time to be trying to kiss her. While she's telling a sexy story about someone else. That's probably what fucked you up. In fact I think one of the main things that fucked you up was just too much conversation altogether, it looks a bit like compliance (listening to her yak on) and beating around the bush. If you're going to spend longer amounts of time together, try to establish some physical comfort and some longer silences and just try to appreciate her. I have encountered the type before that always has to be talking or fiddling with something or whatever... don't be that way yourself. Strong silent type. I can also suggest that if she's yakking on too much with stories that don't count as investment (too much about her, she's not "relating" to the conversation)... look away.

This goes on until she says something and we just stare each other for 5 motherfucking seconds and I don't go for the kiss because there wasn't much I could do after that due to our awkward. Being fair, the majority of the reason was that I was being a pussy too.

She then goes to the bathroom again. I'm already there for at least 4 hours, so I give myself 60 seconds once she gets back from the bathroom to kiss her. She's back, lying on the couch and I'm seated looking to her. Around 3-5 minutes gone by and my opportunity isn't there yet. For the third fucking time, I manage to put on some sexual context in the conversations and then I just say fuck, I'm going for it.

So I get closer and kiss her.

Finally man! This isn't really how my escalations go, but I can give some advice that came in a newsletter from Chase. He was talking about asking girls on a date, after having cold approached them. This used to be a massive sticking point of mine -- that I was having countless interesting conversations and they were investing hard, and then eventually their focus shifted (to another customer... or whatever) or they arrived at their stop or whatever and said the dreaded "nice to meet you"... and that's what I'm getting here. You're enjoying the date, you're getting into the conversations etc... and you're not escalating. ABC! Always Be Closing! The key advice from Chase was MAKE YOUR OWN OPPORTUNITY. What it sounds like you've been doing is WAITING FOR AN OPPORTUNITY. I understand what you said about "you had to build the sexual tension right up again" and so on, well I think this is misguided. If you can't build the sexual tension in 10 seconds of silence/strong EC, keep trying!!!!

Me: You can't even give me a good reason. You're completely on the fence, otherwise you wouldn't have let me kiss you three times

NO, NO, NO!!! Logically engaging a girl during an escalation = blue balls!!! Talking about her letting you kiss her is also framing her as the desirable one. Oops! Actually, I'm not sure if there's anything you could have done at this point. I personally don't see any specific window you missed, I think you just moved too slowly, and attraction expired. Umm, correct course of action depends on whether she's pushing you off, covering her mouth etc... if she is then just act bored and either resume an earlier conversational thread, or stare off into space and let her re-engage, or if you're feeling particularly ballsy, then do a takeaway... casually get up, grab your keys...

Her: I don't wanna wake up tomorrow and feel bad for it. It's disrespectful to him, like, it isn't that I don't feel as a girlfriend, is that I don't I don't know how to behave like one after all this time being single. I don't wanna do it just because it's on the beginning and it might not pan out... things are finally working for me now.

Interesting, she might actually be legit, but the way it normally works, is that she feels no attraction -> she makes up a logical-sounding reason she can't XXX with you. However, once she's said it, it might as well be true... in fact it "becomes true" in her mind. Girls are so strange like that, which is why we have GC, to help understand it.

Then I paused for a good 3 seconds, looked her in the eye and decided that I wouldn't push any further. I'd just relax, and maybe try again later if I think it's worth the shot.

Good man, what you should've done in the first place. I'm actually pretty admiring here about e.g. she goes to the toilet and you re-evaluate your strategy. You get locked into a logical discussion with her and you re-evaluate your strategy. Grabbing some great reference points here.

So I wait, wait, wait... and nothing. I kept deep-diving about her past and sexual experiences

Too much talk, talk, talk... if you were looking to rebuild comfort I think just an arm around her... or have her rest her head on your chest etc... and sit like that for a while. Would be fine. All this talk sounds totally exhausting. It would be great for you to get in the habit of looking away or acting bored, to try and cut off all this yak yak yak.

She doesn't seem to autoreject me, so now I'm thinking maybe I can try again another time... and I'm tired, I can tell she's tired, it's 5 am in the morning and I don't even know if I have the gas for sex and I'm certain she'd say she's tired if I try something. So I just go home and crash on my bed.

I think you mean reject, autorejection=too low attainability, whereas in this case your attainability was quite high. Why not try to crash in her bed. Mood would improve a lot with some warm sunlight streaming in in the morning and a chance to put some dick where it belongs.

WHAT THE FUCK? I'm completely questioning my ability to recognize escalation windows and specially IOIs after this.

I don't think she really gave you any big windows and I think the main IOI she gave you was to sit next to you with arms touching. Now, it appears you might be friendzoned, or possibly it's missed window behaviour resulting from getting her excited enough to invite you home, and then not escalating for like hours, even if she didn't give any window exactly, the whole thing was kind fo your window. Missed window behaviour = responding to you nicely and pretending everything is exactly like before, but throwing up excuses if you actually try to move things forward. Only way to tell is to set up a date / group hangout and do what radeng suggests, get a few drinks into her. I will also give some other advice which is that the best way to recover from missed window is to invite her to a party and flirt like fuck with other girls right in her face.

Ray

 

[Big Daddy]

@NJ

These are one of those where it actually IS good to have a canned response, so you can just quip back at her some sarcastic response (but a "fun" sarcastic response) that lets her know that her boyfriend isn't an obstacle for you).

What's some of your favorites?

Sucks, but fuck it man; you don't learn if you don't try! So kudos for still going for the kiss/make-out.

You know what's funny? Generally before going out, I read an article of two to get my mind going and to remember a point or two on how to get going when I stop at a sticking point... and I read an article of yours that you repeatedly said we'd learn way faster if you push and fail.

I was annoyed that I hadn't kissed her that night and I was certain I'd get at least that make out, there was no fucking way I wouldn't do it, and the only thing I could remember was "pushing and failing is better than not pushing." So I did it, even though it wasn't optimal.

You already know this, but you'll never win using logic in these situations.

Yeah, I know. That was pissing me off at the time. We were sitting shoulder-to-shoulder and I'd try to kiss her here and there but it was too easy for her to turn her head at that position. And the fact the ThirdRoommate interrupted us two times gave her time to rationalize things.

I definitively learned a whole motherfucking lot from this interaction, because I was kinda clueless there at that point. I knew it wasn't going to where I wanted, but I didn't know how to change things back. So I just relaxed, faked a "this isn't a big deal" and waited to see if she would signal something to me.

It's better to be flirtatious and challenging, use your body and non-verbals to get what you want here. Instead of the asking her questions and trying to "talk her into it", you need to do something more playful here. Push her away and poke some fun at the situation, i.e., "Ok fine, quit making out with me then" with a devious smile and confident eye contact, and then continue regular conversation like it's no big deal, and then try again in a few minutes. If you get all serious about it, then it does become a big deal to her no matter what you've discussed earlier. If you're totally NOT serious about it, and make the escalation fun in a playful way that challenges her, that's what has worked best for me.

Right. Thank you, NJ

I would not have laid there next to her for so long. I would have went home and went to bed. Rewarding her with more of your time in this situation is no good.

That's what I wanted to do, but I wanted to see a) if I'd get another chance and b) how far I could put myself into extremely uncomfortable positions.

I think you've put yourself squarely in an orbiter position. Best to forget about this girl, and use it as a huge learning tool.

Right. I sent her another text after the replied to me, and there wasn't a expectation for her to reply. She'd only reply if she wanted to do something, so I won't chase after her. I never even talked to her before Monday nor ever planned to do. This whole things just happened because when the opportunity presented itself to me, I tried to capitalize on it. I'll leave it alone and, if it happens again, I won't fail.

P.S. Is there a way to increase my chances of doing it again on the future (e.g., she breaks up/she wants good sex/etc) or I'm better off not talking to her altogether?

Next time, plan logistics for sex a bit better if possible (no roommate)

Thing is, I'm at the mercy of chance when it comes to logistics until August or, God forbid, even later than that. Refer to my last post where I answer radeng's question about logistics to get a grasp of the situation.

The best I can do is hope that their place is decent for and it and push through even if it isn't.

You actually did great on the front end of this: the approach, the texting / lead up and you seemed to do well on the date until you got to her place. Was actually super impressed with the way you handled all of that.

Thanks dude! Means a lot

@Ray

I'm going to the gym now and I'll answer your points when I get back

 

[Big Daddy]

@Ray

Just got back.

My take is basically that incidental touch is very powerful and must be used and encouraged as much as possible. So I would've just calmly continued the conversation whilst being aware of the arm touch, not pulling away and if she pulled away (indicating it had become too much for her) I would have just tried to casually and frequently touch her with the outside of my arm whilst gesticulating or whatever.

That's what I did. Since she was already there, I used it to my advantage, but I didn't thought that she was completely into me just because of that touch... I think I could've been more clear

if I found she wasn't investing I would withdraw it as a punishment.

That's something to keep in mind. I feel that the "game" still happens too fast for me to keep in mind all of these details. The reactions to this FR tell me I'm going to the right direction, but hopefully these next months my skills will skyrocket with some more free time to go out.

because as radeng's pointed out to me, it really isn't necessary if you have a strong sexual vibe. In fact it can fuck things up, radeng's suggestion is only to engage in this kind of thing in the leadup to sex, be as normal as possible prior to the real date.

I'm not sure that I have a strong sexual vibe yet, so I have o rely on a little bit of talking to convey it. Plus, that story was hilarious the way she was telling... I was being playful and sexual framing at the same time haha

When did you number close her, by the way?

I had her number (and she had mine as well) before that day, but we never texted each other or had any kind of contact besides acknowledging each other existence when talking to the same group.

Possibly. Given you had a 1-2 hour convo I think easy date wouldn't have been too jarring. But it's a tough call because it's hard to recover from refused easy-date. So I believe better safe than sorry. What I've been doing in such a situation, is setting it up for a park 50m from my home, then it's easy to pull from there if things go well.

After the whole thing, I'm glad I went to the coffee shop. Things went great, the store we went to was literally 10 steps away and my chance of pulling her back over coffee as opposed to text were much higher. So I agree with you.

WTF, this is 100% ideal, it's how I set things up by preference.

Yeah, like I said somewhere above, I'd purposefully wait in the parking lot to be late even if I got there early, so I could sit exactly in the same place. She later told be she found awkward sitting side by side when we were at the couch and is more comfortable facing people. She then mentions the coffee and where I sat. But it was no biggie, we just moved on from this topic.

This was just really weak. Your girl is depending on you to isolate her. Make it happen.

I'm not sure if I'd handle it that way but this is definitively something I'll keep in mind and anticipate whenever possible.

Yeah, once committed to a course of action, follow through. Actually, no words necessary here. Just strong eye contact until she looks down. Then she KNOWS what's up.

Yeah, I fucked up really, really bad here. I'll make mastering this technique my priority out of frustration... I can't describe how much of a pussy I felt.

Talking about her letting you kiss her is also framing her as the desirable one. Oops!

Fuck dude, you're so right. It seems that I need to read some more on LMR.

Interesting, she might actually be legit, but the way it normally works, is that she feels no attraction -> she makes up a logical-sounding reason she can't XXX with you.

So if I understood it correctly, you're saying that there's the possibility that she wasn't attracted to me when I tried to kiss her?

@Topic

So I didn't try to move things forward with her after all of this. I won't put myself into a position that I'm going to look like a pussy and chase her when the chance of success is very low. I might make a feel jokes here and there and talk normally to her if we meet at the hallway, but I'll go out and meet other women because I don't wanna cause the impression that I'm mad that she didn't sleep with me or whatever.