Improving your dating skills is a subtractive process

[Bboy100]

So, most people think that to "improve their game", they need to add something to whoever they really are.

They need to be smoother.
Better conversationalists.
More entertaining.
More sexual.
More...whatever.

And while that technically might be true, I want to suggest something you may not have heard before- doing all these things is not a matter of adding to the person you already are. Rather, its about removing your filters. Its about bringing out the person you truly are. It's about being honest. Research shows that being genuine is attractive. That is...we are more likely to like someone if they're being honest and not hiding who they are. Even if we don't like that personality type/the things they represent. We'll still like them.

Moreover, I think most guys already have all the traits necessary to attract women within them. Most guys know how to have conversations, be interesting, be entertaining, be sexual etc. But what stops them? Anxiety. Feeling like what they really are is inappropriate, or not good enough, or bad in some way. Once you add all those filters in, the guy becomes nervous, timid, shy, bland, unassertive...all the things which are unattractive. Why do those filters exist? Usually its because they exposed who they really were at some point early in their lives, and someone somewhere told them its not okay.

Maybe their priest told them their desires are not Okay.
Maybe their peers bullied them in school for being into comic books.
Maybe they got rejected by their first crush.
...there are a million possibilities.

Regardless, the filters are now there. Trying to protect us from being hurt once more. Ironically enough, they're the true source of hurt and dissatisfaction. So really, I think our job here is not to cultivate new traits. Its to remove filters and barriers. To reveal our honest, true selves.

Granted...there are some guys who really do need work on their personalities and are actually boring/weird/dumb people. But I think they're far and few in between. Truth is, if women saw you as you are when no one is looking, a large portion of them would be attracted to you. Cause that version of you is honest.

 

[PrettyDecent]

Ridding anxiety is pretty important for the escalation process. How can you ask a girl out or go for the kiss if you're too afraid to go for it? So yeah, very important, totally!

But it should also be noted that many men have faulty mental models of attraction. Just because you don't have anxiety, doesn't mean it'll stop you from saying something that would hurt your attainability. Or maybe you're too explicit with your value, just as a habit. Also, you may not be escalating compliance properly.

One problem that I had for a while was not showing nonverbal interest in people. It never even occurred to me that people needed encouragement in conversation. Then they'd auto-reject, and I'd be sitting there wondering why people always closed up to me after talking about personal things. Developing the right mental model and process is key.

Nick

 

[Big Daddy]

Yes, I see where you're coming from but this is a tricky thing to suggest to beginners.

If your fundamentals are on point, and it sounds like they are, it makes sense. But a lot of people must add a lot of stuff in before they start subtracting.

 

[Bboy100]

PrettyDecent,

Yeah, I guess I should clarify. I don't think that there is nothing to learn. But I think that the informational (i.e. "what do you do/say/how do you behave") portion of dating is a relatively small amount. Its like 5-10% of it. You could probably take a new guy out and fill all the informational gaps he has in a week or less.

So its not that there is no need for information/ "adding stuff" whatsoever. Rather, its such a small part of the battle, that its not really worth spending too much time worrying about it.

The only reason guys seem like they have more informational problems than that is because most of their weird/wrong behaviors are actually some sort of emotional issue. For example, guys who have low self-esteem will subconsciously sabotage themselves. This will manifest itself in behaviors which look like he's "doing something stupid and needs to correct that external behavior". But realistically, that external behavior is only as a result of his inner state (low self-esteem).

I remember I used to think I have informational problems. For example, I would ask "how do I invite a women home". I would get a bunch of answers. And none of them would seem satisfactory. So when I was actually out, I still thought I "didn't know what to do". But realistically, the problem wasn't that I didn't know how to invite a women home. Its actually really easy. The problem was a deeper emotional issue- in my case, I had some sexual shame. I felt like asking a women to come home with me was "wrong" in some way. Also, some fear of rejection. I felt like a women would look at me like she' disgusted and say "no way!". Once I resolved the sexual shame, like magic, my informational problem with inviting women home was gone too.

Hopefully, all this makes sense haha.

BigDaddy,

Fundamentals improve as all the rest improves. What are the most important points of fundamentals?
1. Body language- improves as you reduce anxiety & are capable of being more genuine. In fact, part of the definition of being genuine is having body language which is congruent with what you're saying and doing.
2. Eye contact- Same thing. If you're more confident, making firm, but relaxed eye contact is much easier.
3. Voice- Our voice actually deepens and becomes sexier when we're feeling more confident and masculine. Remember a date where you felt nervous and like the girl wasn't into you? How did your voice sound? Now think of one where the girl was super into you, and you felt manly and in control. Think about your voice now? I bet that if you distinctly remember examples of those two scenarios, your will be considerably deeper with the girl who was into you.

In fact, for me personally, "working on fundamentals" has never worked. If I'm stressed out or anxious, my fundamentals are weak. If I'm feeling good, they're strong. I've spent soo much time practicing them, and its never really helped.

So what does that leave us with?
Fashion?
Grooming?

Those two can be fixed in one trip to the mall.

Finally,
Physique- Yeah, I guess this one is something we "add". And it takes some time. But if you have everything else on point, its really not SUPER important (unless you're waaay out of shape. Either morbidly obese or you're skinnier than most girls are).

 

[PrettyDecent]

Bboy,

PrettyDecent,

Yeah, I guess I should clarify. I don't think that there is nothing to learn. But I think that the informational (i.e. "what do you do/say/how do you behave") portion of dating is a relatively small amount. Its like 5-10% of it. You could probably take a new guy out and fill all the informational gaps he has in a week or less.

So its not that there is no need for information/ "adding stuff" whatsoever. Rather, its such a small part of the battle, that its not really worth spending too much time worrying about it.

The only reason guys seem like they have more informational problems than that is because most of their weird/wrong behaviors are actually some sort of emotional issue. For example, guys who have low self-esteem will subconsciously sabotage themselves. This will manifest itself in behaviors which look like he's "doing something stupid and needs to correct that external behavior". But realistically, that external behavior is only as a result of his inner state (low self-esteem).

I remember I used to think I have informational problems. For example, I would ask "how do I invite a women home". I would get a bunch of answers. And none of them would seem satisfactory. So when I was actually out, I still thought I "didn't know what to do". But realistically, the problem wasn't that I didn't know how to invite a women home. Its actually really easy. The problem was a deeper emotional issue- in my case, I had some sexual shame. I felt like asking a women to come home with me was "wrong" in some way. Also, some fear of rejection. I felt like a women would look at me like she' disgusted and say "no way!". Once I resolved the sexual shame, like magic, my informational problem with inviting women home was gone too.

Hopefully, all this makes sense haha.

Gotcha! Yeah, I misinterpreted your post. Thanks for the clarification, man.

For sure, lots of great realisations here. What you're talking about is "follow your instinct" and get rid of the things that block you from doing that.

This type of game is great when you have momentum. You've recently had lots of success, and you're at the point where doing what you want is going to get you laid. You've got the courage and the correct intuition for the situation. You can also get away with "unstable game", as Alek would say.

This is the "natural's" type of game-talk. But it's also not very accessible for beginners or for people who've taken a break from the game for a while. Both of these people lack momentum, and without tech, are trying hard for little results. They simply don't have the correct intuition and are rusty at many skills (including flirting, escalating correctly, etc.).

For example, it's still confusing what it means to remove barriers rather than build on something in your personality. What do you need to remove? What's the tech that you need to learn? How do you know the difference between the two so you're not accidentally removing tech or trying to put tech where there's already a filter?

Also, what's the difference in results between a guy who has filters/barriers rather than someone who is legitimately boring/weird/dumb? How can a guy self-diagnose these issues?

With momentum, these questions can be answered through intuition. Without momentum, you need to explain these with analysis.

Nick

 

[Bboy100]

For example, it's still confusing what it means to remove barriers rather than build on something in your personality.

Tbh, sometimes the process is the same. For example, if we're talking about a guy who's still too nervous to lean in for the kiss, he needs to build courage. While you could say this is "adding" something to his personality (courage & eventually, confidence), you could also say you're subtracting something from his personality. He wants to kiss the girl, and he knows he should. So the thing that's stopping him is anxiety. So in this case, we would be "subtracting" his anxiety.

So why is it important to view it as "subtractive" rather than "adding". Two reasons:

1. If we view it as "adding", then we can get stuck in this loop of believing there is a certain archetype we must encompass in order to be attractive to women. For example, a lot of readers on GirlsChase might think "I have to be exactly like Chase, and cultivate his personality traits, use his techniques etc. otherwise I won't be successful with women." This is a terrible mindset to have, because there are a lot of guys (e.g. anyone who's high energy) who probably can't be exactly like Chase. Whereas if we view it as subtractive (i.e. we're removing the bad stuff from our personality and leaving only the good), we're NOT trying to become someone we're not. We get to keep our personality. We're simply removing all the clutter and bullshit. We don't need to transform ourselves into an entirely different person. In other words, subtracting targets only the problems and touches nothing else. Adding- specifically using "techniques" is usually a form of copying what someone else does and who they are, which can include changing a lot of things which were never a problem to begin with.

For example...I never use Chase frames. They always felt awkward to me. And they still do, even to this day. When I was newer, I thought I had to do that to do them to be attractive. Because that's what Chase does and he said I have to do. Whereas now, I realize that as long as I communicate intent in my own way, it doesn't matter weather I use that specific technique or not. This goes back to subtracting the sexual shame and fear of rejection I had. Because most guys who don't have either of those two things will naturally show their intent to women they're interested in in one way or another. They don't ever need to learn to do it from a technical/technique standpoint.

2. "Subtractive" assumes we already have everything we need. We're enough. I am enough to be attractive to women as I am. I simply need to bring that side of me out so women can see it. Whereas if we view it as "adding qualities", the assumption is that who I currently am is not good enough, and I need to be someone better. Obviously, the former mindset is 10x more productive than the latter.

But other times, the process of trying to "add" can sometimes be different from the process of being "subtractive". Which brings me to...

What do you need to remove? What's the tech that you need to learn? How do you know the difference between the two so you're not accidentally removing tech or trying to put tech where there's already a filter?

This is hard to self diagnose. But very easy for others with experience to see. For example...going back to the example of the kiss. What does a guy who doesn't kiss a girl usually say?
- I couldn't find the right moment.
- I want to wait till she likes me more
- I didn't like her that much anyway!
...etc.

What are all these things? Rationalizations! When his explanation for his actions are excuses or make no sense at all, you know its a deeper issue at hand (i.e. a filter needs to be removed). In this case...he lacks courage & has very high anxiety around kissing girls for some reason. So in this case, more tech won't really help him. Explaining to him why kissing her at x moment would have been fine will go in one ear and right out the other. Or even if he does understand and agree with you, this new information won't really help him next time he's in a similar situation. Instead, he would benefit from a discussion about why he fears kissing the girl so much in the first place, and what he can do to get rid of said fear (i.e. subtracting his anxiety).

Conversely, you know its a "tech" problem when the guy's explanation for his actions are something along the lines of "I didn't know I should do that" or "I didn't think of that! That's a good idea". For example, law of least effort. A lot of people are painfully unaware of how helpful it can be to abide by it. If you see a guy walk up to a girl from across the room and direct open her when he could have easily been more strategic/blended into the conversation, you know its a tech problem. It's not that he had a block in his head. Or that he was being untrue to himself and his desires. He just wasn't aware that maybe there was a more intelligent way to accomplish his goal. So obviously, he doesn't need to remove a filter here. It just needs to be pointed out to him that maybe he could have done that approach a different way.

Another simple example is a guy with atrocious fashion choices. That's not a mental block (usually). That's just not knowing how to dress properly. Or just being unaware that its important.

Also, what's the difference in results between a guy who has filters/barriers rather than someone who is legitimately boring/weird/dumb? How can a guy self-diagnose these issues?

First of all, I would say that a guy who's legit dumb or weird is very rare. Almost everyone has something to bring to the table. But I would say that we can tell if someone is dumb or weird based on the way he behaves around people he's close with. Friends or Family. Places where he won't feel judged. If he's still awkward/uninteresting/stupid all the time, even around those people (where he presumably feels comfortable being himself), then he probably needs to become a more interesting person. Whereas if he's fine at home, then he goes out and becomes a wallflower or a bag of nerves, or becomes unnecessarily aggressive, or tries too hard, or has any other significant change in personality/behavior, you know its a mental modal/filter problem.
I guess one other problem to note in regards to diagnosis is that for some people, these filters are so deeply ingrained in their psyche, that there is literally no one with whom they feel comfortable expressing who they are. Not even with themselves. So really, no one sees them as they truly are. But for those folks, I feel like therapy or some other form of professional advice would be needed to address their issues anyways.

As for how to self-diagnose that? Other than reading a lot of Psychology and learning about how to address emotional issues as a whole, I'm not really sure. Most people are painfully unaware of who they are, their own strengths and weaknesses etc. But I also think that this question is irrelevant. Because regardless of which view you take, self-diagnosing issues with women when you're still new doesn't usually work. That's why boards like these exist in the first place.

 

[PrettyDecent]

Bboy,

I'm nodding to a lot of what you're saying

It's this I'm concerned about:

But I also think that this question is irrelevant. Because regardless of which view you take, self-diagnosing issues with women when you're still new doesn't usually work. That's why boards like these exist in the first place.

The overall theme and tone of the post is anti-polarisation. It implies that the smartest strategy is to never even try chase framing if you "know" it doesn't fit in your personality. That's how a lot of beginners will take it as.

Nick

 

[Bboy100]

The overall theme and tone of the post is anti-polarisation.

Hmm, yeah I could see how it might be interpreted that way. I guess this post is mostly for guys who already have some understanding of women/dating. Specifically, its might be a useful way of viewing teaching and understanding a student or mentee's problems (or your own if you're already intermediate or advanced, but still have a few issues to tweak). It's not so much for guys who still have no idea what they're doing. Cause yeah...beginners cannot yet fully grasp what I'm talking about. So maybe this should be in the advanced section haha.

Thanks for pointing that out to me

 

[mindful]

I started working out again at the beginning of the new year. Since then, I've put on about 12 lbs of muscle. I've always been pretty skinny and only ever seriously worked out 3 years ago when I was 25 then gave up 8 months later after some decent gains. I am now 28 and the muscle is defintely helping my confidence, and lifting more than I ever did 3 years ago. But I'm also very consciousness of my calorie/protein intake plus adequate sleep. I think working out is very beneficial for dating... 3 month commitment in the gym and your body will look more muscular (depending on your baseline).

Besides that, I agree with the initial post where being genuine really works well. It takes some trial and error though to get to that comfort level with women if you aren't used to it. I've learned that my playful style combatted with some sexual undertone works well for me, and it suits my personality. It took a while to realize this though and sometimes you doubt yourself when it doesn't work out with the girls you are seeing, which could also be related to other things like screening.

 

[PrettyDecent]

Bboy,

I have to take responsibility here and say I was totally wrong. I think this mindset is actually very beneficial in having self-esteem.

Not really proud of arguing here.

Nick

 

[JRob]

There are some excellent points here. Fear is paralyzing, contagious, and can be counterproductive to our goals if we don't properly steer it. Momentum is magnitude and direction. When you remove the filters you get the magnitude, and when you learn the skills you get direction. It's important to be genuine because you want women that want you, and you don't want to lie about what you want. People lie believing that who they are and what they want isn't good enough.

 

[kristian]

Bboy100

What you're touching into resonates deeply with what I've been realizing lately.

No matter what area you dive into: business, yoga, meditation and even pick up, the end game is the same - enlightenment.
For me it means peeling off the bullshit that stop you from being you. What society has told us is right often goes at the expense of showing the world our true selves.

What game does is expose what's not you. By going out chasing storms, in our case rejections, we see the games our egos has been playing in our minds. Take limiting beliefs, for example; I believe we get rejected because a part of us believes we don't deserve to talk to the girl in front of us, that limiting belief creates neediness and perpetuates rejections until we expose those beliefs, deal with them and come back with new perspectives.

As you said, our beliefs, inner strength, and confidence are visible by the way we act, speak and behave. The challenge we all have is that we can't just change because we want to, that's why we find sites as GC; so we can mimic people with those core beliefs, the enlightened seducer so to speak. And its been proven that when you act a certain way (like walking confidently) our minds tend to follow. That's why Chase talks about the importance of fundamentals.

But as every other person on this site says, we won't become "enlightened" by reading this stuff. We must get out and find ourselves out there by chasing inner storms and coming back a little smarter and a lot closer to being our true selves.

- Kristian

 

[Marcel]

BUMP