Inner Frame - Need to Trust

[JDB_40k]

Pretty sure I encountered an inner frame issue recently.

I went out with this girl and things were moving were well, there was a good vibe, had a very sexual tone to it (we were talking openly about things we liked) Went for the pull, handled her objections, but she wouldn't budge - a very hard no. So I kept up the conversation for a bit and said good night.

We set up a second date a few days later. Again, things were going very well. The topic shifted and I suggested we go back to her place. She began to dig in her heels and began to say things like "I need to be able to trust someone" We've only been on two dates and I need to be on several before I trust someone."

As I was trying to outframe her she said "I don't know what kind of girls you hang around..." and I cut her off before she could say what she was going to say next (I wasn't about to let her call my other GFs sluts [personal issue])

So I got up and left.

What I am getting at and asking will be two fold. I don't feel bad about leaving her because it would seem to me that she has control issues - if she can't be trusting enough to be intimate with someone and has that many hangups with sex then am I right to assume that there would be more problems down the road with sex if she has these issues in the beginning? (The whole principle with our community is to move fast, and I have found happier and healthier relationships for it)

Second, if it wasn't an inner frame thing, what would be the best methods to outframe this line of thinking - I need to trust before I can have sex?

 

[Smith]

I think Ricardus has wrote an article on this.
If that really is her internal frame, then there's nothing you can do to change her mind except going along with it.
If that's her external frame, i.e. social conditioning, but deep down she actually wants it then it's something you have to persuade her.

am I right to assume that there would be more problems down the road with sex if she has these issues in the beginning?

It's hard to say. You should find out how her past relationships were like. Most people's relationship tend to have the same pattern whether they realize it or not, and until they become conscious of it, it will keep repeating itself.

 

[JDB_40k]

I think Ricardus has wrote an article on this.
If that really is her internal frame, then there's nothing you can do to change her mind except going along with it.
If that's her external frame, i.e. social conditioning, but deep down she actually wants it then it's something you have to persuade her.

am I right to assume that there would be more problems down the road with sex if she has these issues in the beginning?

It's hard to say. You should find out how her past relationships were like. Most people's relationship tend to have the same pattern whether they realize it or not, and until they become conscious of it, it will keep repeating itself.

If it's something like that, you can address it before it even came up with something like "Are you the kind of person that follows the rules - even if you think the rule is unfair?" Then you can follow it up with something silly like America was founded upon rule breakers and something I have done to break the rules.

I'm still pretty sure it was an inner frame. She was an only child who had been handed things in her life. Pretty sure she never had to really work for anything so she had an entitlement mentality.

As for her past relationships, I dug into that part of her history but she was pretty evasive about it - I came to the conclusion that she didn't have much of one. When I dove a bit deeper it started to sound like she was making things up.

That leads me to a new question, when you know more about a girl's relationship history, what are the ways that you can address it. I mean if she was hurt you can calmly say "I know that is so unfair, there are so many selfish people out there

 

[Drck]

I think the whole issue is much more complex, to me it seems that she wasn't in the mood. Girls usually decide based on emotions and believes. If she is "open" to it, she may sleep with the guy within 1-3 dates. If she is "closed" she won't sleep with him no matter how much experience he's got and how attractive he is.

There are many factors that contribute to her decision:

She may be more liberal or more conservative. Conservative may give you much harder time than liberal, she would sleep with you the first day but if you don't have enough experience she won't.

She may have her own rules: Never sleep with any other guy till 5th date. You won't brake her rules no matter how hot you are, e.g. she was already hurt in the past.

She may be very smart and calculating. Say that she meets very sexy guy and she knows that he lives around, so she decides to play hard to get, she'll make him work for it: She will sleep with him on 4th day if he keeps going after her. She many not see him as a BF, perhaps she knows this will be only a short-term fun, but she will want to keep that emotional excitement of new sexy guy in her life for several days. But if she knows that the same guy is leaving and never comming back, she may sleep with him the same day. It simply all depends on situation.

She may be inexperienced, she knows that he has experience but he is moving too fast. She put brakes on, and even if she really wants to sleep with him she needs some time to get herself ready.

She is just not sure about sleeping with the guy on the first date. He's good, great, he knows what he's doing - but right now she is dealing with other two guys who are also hot.

She is looking for long term BF and she's got some guys on her list. But there is a possibility that somebody can see her with this hot guy today who wants to move fast. Even though she did it in the past, she will deny any of your advances because the risk is too high

She may consider you too important in her life (not necessary as a BF), she couldn't stand the possibility that you perceive her as a girl who sleeps with guy the 1st day. Or she thinks in her mind she would do slutty things as she's not convinced enough


She has no idea who do you know and if you talk about sleeping with girls. She may be afraid that you say something about her sleeping with you to her friends, and that could devastate her 'good girl' life. How can she be sure that you don't meet her friends tomorrow? She just really can't trust, which doesn't mean that she can't eventually trust you...

There are hundreds of other things that can influence her decision.

It is just a matter of your style, it really depends on what you want. For example, if you are more social guy who want to sleep with 200 different girls and who already has experience, you probably don't want to waste much time by waiting on one girl. You want to give her 1-3 dates and then you move on to another girls. But if you don't have such desire and if you are less social, perhaps you are just looking for GF, even short term, you would be foolish to let her go. Girls will sleep with you even after 3 dates, and even after 10 dates. In the same way, if you don't have much experience but you want to move fast, many times you really can't. You are dealing with your own issues, you are on the ground that you have no idea about, and you can still learn a lot from this girl... so what would be the point on moving on on another girl? You will only lose the opportunity to learn.

Generally speaking, you don't want to know much - or at least not ask much - about girl's dating/relationships history. You don't want to look like insecure guy who compares himself to other guys she date. (e.g. Alpha doesn't care at all) and you don't want to look like her therapist who's trying to "fix" her problems. Maybe her past relationship was painful, and by asking about it you are bringing up the pain. You don't want to appear that you care much about how many guys she slept with in the past, because she may think you are too judgmental. You don't want to ask too many personal stuff because that shows insecurity and neediness for serious relationship. You want to be sexy guy who she can have great sex with without being judged, and who is ok with her walking away from the relationship

So a guy should be smart about girls:
* If she doesn't want to move within 3 dates, well, start looking around, he still wants to move fast
* He doesn't't know if he meet her 2 years from now, so leave the end "open". She will remember him and it might be much easier to sleep with her 2 years from now than today
* If she doesn't want to sleep with him but she is still showing high interest in him (texting, calling, investing,...), well, no chasing, she just needs time
* If there are important 'things' to learn (kissing, touching, talking,...) with this girl, he should learn at least those things before moving on. Many times it is better to go on 10th date and not sleep with the girl, than not having a date at all
* If nothing else, having a girl as a friend won't hurt. She is social, she knows many other girls, and eventually she could introduce the guy to some that he really likes...

 

[JDB_40k]

Drck, Ok you've given me some things to think about.

That leads me to a couple other questions. What are some ways to communicate that you won't be around forever, i.e other girls want me, I my not be around forever... without beating her over the head with it?

I mean is it simply saying you are seeing other people?

I don't mind going on several dates. I'm just curious about ways to speed up the process. I get it, she has to be a willing participant - I wouldn't want a girl who wasn't into me. But I do know sometimes people get in their own way when a great thing is staring them in the face.

I guess what I'm asking is how to be more subtle in my communication about certain things.

 

[Drck]

I'd be truthful and honest, but indirect. It all really depends on what you want (your goal with girls), your seduction style and your personality.

There are of course different ways how to be honest. For example:

Asshole:
He can be more direct, e.g. he can say directly to the girl: "I want to screw as many girls as I can (exciting smile)". Given his personality - say he's got natural vibe, he's bold and aggressive, he's loud and dominant, he's exciting and outgoing, he doesn't give a damn what the girl thinks about him and he is truthful about it. It simply fits him and he may get laid quite often.

More gentle guy, lover:
He is already quite sexy and really confident, he has experience, but he is more colder and reserved, not so outgoing like the asshole, he cares about her. So he could formulate his words: "Yea, I'm looking for really amazing girl, and I'm always open to a great relationship - as long as the girl meets my expectations (sexy smile)". Its kind of vague, but it is challenging because his body language shows enough sexual desire. She may ask: What are the expectations?, but she already feels the answer: Sex! And it has to be great! Now she's got to ask herself: Am I good enough to meet this sexy guy's expectation? Does he think about me that I am amazing enough? Am I the one who he will consider as GF? Well, lets see! And she is already dripping. To her it is a big challenge, which she loves, she's got to prove her value to him. At the same time he is honest, he places himself to a leading and dominant position because it is she who needs to meet his expectations and prove herself to him, and not the other way...

Average guy:
This guy may not be so sexy, his confidence is not that great, his experience is minimal, but he is really interested in sex. He is optimistic and positive, quite interested in her, and all of this is reflected in his body language. So he could say: "Yea, I'm looking for really amazing girl, and I'm always open to a great relationship, and at this time I'm more interested in experimenting and doing things together (gentle smile)". This guy doesn't give her too much of a challenge (like lover above), he doesn't projects much sexuality and confidence, he seems little hesitant. But he is very truthful. So he is really telling her: Look, I'm not gonna pretend, I am not really great sexy MF who can give you the best sex of your life, don't expect much from my experience, I can't really lead much without your help but I'm really interested. I'm just a guy who really likes you and who is really trying to get more experience. There is not much sexiness implied in his body language and talking but don't be mistaken: She will eventually find out anyway, and if he simply tells her the truth in indirect way, she might decide that she will help him with the experience. Why wouldn't she? She is this amazing girl he's talking about, therefore she will. This guy will get much further with truth than a guy who pretends that he's quite sexy - but not really...

It's sounds probably much more complicated than it is. See, you can't really memorize the "right words", there are no right words. But the thing is, if you are exactly clear in what you want (is your goal 10 girls? 200? Just a GF?), if you decide to be truthful about it but indirect - your words and your body language will reflect it. They will reflect it it the same way like when a guy pretends to be very sexy and very confident, but really has no experience. That's a lie and she will find out, he will never get a second date, perhaps will be lucky if he gets the first one... You also want to tell her minimum you have to, just really gently "touch" the subject. If 0 is nothing and 100 is everything, say you want to tell her only 20. She'll figure the rest on her own.

Words itself are less than 10% of all the communication, half of it is body language and the rest the tone. Girls are usually very good at reading body language and tone, they discover lies/discrepancies very quickly. When she discovers the guy is lying, e.g. there are some discrepancies between his words and his behavior, well, she might get alarmed and very cautious. Meaning the guy won't get another chance to prove himself because he's already ruled himself out...