Is being a "PUA" worth it?

Jeet02

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I am guessing almost everyone in here has probably heard or read The Game. I just finished it today and I have some mixed feelings about it. At first you really get into the whole "holy crap this PUA thing is awesome" but then the whole thing goes down hill and it doesn't seem to be very awesome at all with all the drama and stuff they go through.

I really want to get better with women, not only to be able to just be with any women I actually want, but really to be able to find The ONE and not screw it up.

So I ask you guys, especially Chase and Franco and anyone with pretty much higher experience in the PUA world. Is it worth it? How do you stop yourself from falling into the madness that this people fell into? Now something I like from your posts Chase, is that you are teaching people how to be social no matter the situation. This guys in The Game would just teach routines and a script. If they ran out of things to say...they would become creepy and awkward because they just didnt have actual social skills...so there's that.

But yes, I still want to improve with women and even go for it...I would like your side of things and see what you guys think about it.

-Jeet
 

Chase

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Hey Jeet,

Remember, with The Game, Neil's a talented writer, so he's eliciting in you the emotions he wants to elicit to create an exciting story, hit the #1 best seller list, and get the female readers on his side ("Yeah, see! Pickup doesn't pay! Don't do it!"). He painted a picture of this whole arc of pickup that's somewhat reminiscent of Scarface or Requiem for a Dream, where at first seduction is this wonderful, addicting thing, only for it to end up being this dark, twisted thing that leads to horrors beyond imagination (except for him; he gets out and finds happiness).

What he doesn't tell you is that his "girl he got with no game" (Lisa Leveridge) left him for a rock star, or that Mystery ended up settling down and starting a family with some chick in England, while Neil went back to PUA and charged guys hundreds of thousands of dollars for bootcamps. So, the story didn't really end there... that was only one part of it.

Personally, I've known a LOT of guys involved in pickup, over a period of 7 or so years, some for that entire span, and I can't think of anyone I've seen who was worse off for it. What usually happens is guys end up finding some girl they really like, settling down, and starting a family. Even a lot of the guys who were sleeping with one girl after another after another and used to tell me they'd NEVER settle down - not on their LIVES! - even these guys, a lot of them now are settled down with some girl, married, getting married, or with children. For all the talk about how they'll never settle down now that they've unlocked the key to limitless women, they still usually do, sometimes with a great girl, sometimes with (what I think) is completely the WRONG girl for them, but she's often way hotter than what they used to get regardless. Seems to happen for most guys somewhere between 30 and 35 - suddenly Mr. Playa-4-LIFE! is getting married to some chick and talking about how he's hanging up his spurs. It's funny.

So, don't put too much faith in Neil's "seduction is a dark art!" doom and gloom. Even TylerDurden, the bad guy from The Game, ended up going monogamous for 4 or 5 years and having a child with his girlfriend (although I'm told they're recently split up and he's back on the prowl, albeit a little rusty). Think of learning seduction as a journey that is darker at the beginning, when you realize that the world is not what you thought it was, but gets progressively better as you realize the way it actually is, and that you're now far better able to get what you want in this more realistic world that you understand the rules, properties, and inner-workings of.

Cheers,
Chase
 

Ross

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If a skill is going to be mastered, hardships are going to be dealt with. A master of taekwondo doesn't get there without years of disciplined practice. Ask the master if it was all worth it, and he'll typically say yes. If one is willing to put in the work day-in and day-out to master a technique, they are going to be satisfied with the results, as that was their goal all along.

I personally never read The Game as it seemed gimmicky and never passed my screen as material that was worth my time to read, as I felt I wouldn't learn much out of it that I didn't already know. Also, we need to keep in mind that one's experience of the universe is highly subjective; the people describing what happened to them in the book are most likely exaggerating certain aspects, as the human mind quite frequently does. But this isn't even the real problem that we have here. What's at topic here is the way you feel, rather then what The Game said.

I don't feel like I could comfortably give you advice on what to do about finding the one, as committed relationships are such a mess that I decided it would probably be best to stay single. I'll leave you with a parcel of advice; do not fear failure, as failure is simply an opportunity to learn new things and improve yourself.
 

Franco

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Hey Jeet,

I actually have never read The Game, so I can't quite comment on the book or the messages that it might be trying to convey. I might pick it up just to read for fun sometime, but I doubt it will change my opinion on the way I view the world and the people that inhabit it. I shall explain why in the next few paragraphs.

First of all, I would like to get this quickly out of the way: I do not consider myself to be a "PUA" or a "seducer of women." I have spent VERY little time on PUA websites and actually don't know most of the lingo or jargon that they use there, nor do I consider a lot of it to be of any considerable use. I know Chase has spent a number of years in the community, and I'm sure there are teachings and tactics that he has learned that have helped his game, though.

However, a lot of what I have learned about women has come purely from my own observation.

I remember telling myself in middle school that I wanted to learn "everything I possibly could about women," so I religiously analyzed social interactions that I had, my friends had, and even strangers had with women. I would love to just observe and pick up on the emotions that were being displayed as well as the after-effects they had on both parties (both short-term and long-term). I learned a lot strictly through just watching. And when I went home each night, I would sometimes just lie in bed for an hour or two thinking about why these interactions had played out the way they did. Did they produce a positive result? Did they produce a negative result? If the result was negative, why was it negative?

These are all questions that I would try to answer in my head. And when you start collecting LOTS of data points, you start noticing patterns, and you realize that it is just a giant puzzle that has a ton of missing pieces that need to be filled in. I started filling in some of those pieces early on in my life.

I used to go to female friends and ask for their advice on handling the interactions I did not understand. I figured, "well, if I am still missing pieces to this puzzle, I should be able to just go to the source and ask women for their input? Right?" WRONG. This was my BIGGEST MISTAKE, and it actually plays a large role in how I lost a girl I loved and ended up on this website. NEVER TAKE DATING OR RELATIONSHIP ADVICE FROM WOMEN. The article I just linked will explain some of the primary reasons why.

But anyway, why was this website so beneficial to me as opposed to all the other dating and relationship advice websites out there? Because it filled in the few critical pieces of the puzzle that I was missing.

One of the biggest things I realized from reading Chase's blogs (and I even had my past observations to back it up) is that women WANT to be approached. They WANT to be swept off their feet by that mysterious stranger. They WANT to be taken passionately to bed and given the night of their life... and they want it to be done with speed, discretion, and warmth.

When you know deep down in your gut what women truly want, it no longer becomes an aspect of "seducing women" or "using tactics to get with beautiful girls." It becomes about helping give women the emotions and feelings they can only see in movies, read about in books, and dream about at night. It's a win-win situation becoming amazing with women -- you get better at approaching and finding the girl of your dreams, and every girl along the way gets a chance to experience the guy of her dreams.

Once you view the world in this way, instead of working toward becoming a PUA, you work toward becoming a "lover of women." You give women the experiences they can only dream about, and in return, you prosper in just about every aspect of your life.

I hope this clears things up, Jeet.

- Franco
 

Jeet02

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Thank you all for the replies. I am definitely pretty motivated and interested in learning the ways of the wise. I just got a little bit scared you could say, after reading The Game how some of them just ended up all f'ed up from going through that experience. Of course, most of them, what they actually learned, were scripts/routines, they never really improved on their own personality/social skills, which is kinda what I am hoping to get from here and this whole experience. Just become a better man overall.

Now, this is probably a complicated question and might need a book-length answer on it self but, Chase...you said that "when you realize the world is not what you thought it was, but gets progressively better as you realize the way it actually is"...what do you mean by this exactly? I mean, I can tell you for a fact, that I have learned a LOT of new things already of things that I thought were one way, but were actually another. (boyfriend dilemma, they WANT sex as much as we do, they act more on emotions...etc). But I am still curious what you meant exactly.

Really liked your quote at the end RTB. I agree 100% man!

And Franco, I guess "PUA" is they way I really refer to it, but basically that's what I want. I want to be able to not only see the hottest girl in the bar and get her, but also know that I can show her the time of her life. I want her to be as happy to go home with me, as I am about taking her home.

-Jeet
 

Eternity

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I've never really seen Neil Strauss in a video working his magic in the field, not like Mystery who i've seen on some videos. Just read he's having 3somes w/some chicks he meets at parties. Also i've heard he's planning in "reinventing" his pickup forum/academy because of cheap imitators scamming students. I dont know how is this related to his business, im guessing they use his tactics and say its theirs. Any of u know if he's legit good still or just in this 4 the cash and has lost his magic.
 

Chase

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Jeet-

Jeet02 said:
Now, this is probably a complicated question and might need a book-length answer on it self but, Chase...you said that "when you realize the world is not what you thought it was, but gets progressively better as you realize the way it actually is"...what do you mean by this exactly? I mean, I can tell you for a fact, that I have learned a LOT of new things already of things that I thought were one way, but were actually another. (boyfriend dilemma, they WANT sex as much as we do, they act more on emotions...etc). But I am still curious what you meant exactly.

Primarily just referring to the notions a lot of men have before studying dating and seduction that relationships should be forever, that once you "get" a girl, she's yours for good and now you can just put your feet up and relax, that the nice guy wins out over the bad boy in the end and triumphs, that all you have to do is show enough value and women will fall for you, etc. Basically the same thing most women believe about men, too (both genders are equally misled by the wishful thinking of the people writing books and movie scripts).

A lot of guys go through a period of bitterness at the beginning, where they think, "Fine! If women want assholes, I'LL BE AN ASSHOLE!" And then they go around talking like a jerk, harboring a lot of resentment, and talking about what terrible human beings women are. Imagine feminists, except male.

Not every guy makes it to the other side of that dark tunnel, but when he does he realizes he's in a much better place than he was before, and he no longer begrudges women their choices. The resentment occurs because the man had a certain expectation of women and relationships he'd been instilled with since a young age, and when that perception was violated and shattered, he felt as though he'd been betrayed and thrown into a far colder world than rose garden he thought he'd been living in. But the fact is, nothing changed; he just received a rude awakening, and now has to get used to the real world, and learn to let go of the fantasies he had programmed into him by society before (e.g., Cypher in the Matrix is an example of one of these guys who gets thrown in to the real world but refuses to let go of the fantasy of the world he lived in before, and it only serves to make him bitter and resentful; these are usually older guys who don't learn game until they're in their 20s; the younger guys are immune to this because they realize it early enough on that their views haven't been firmly set. "We never free a mind once it's reached a certain age," goes the line in the Matrix, and it's true here quite often, too).

Chase
 

Jeet02

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Chase,

It is funny you mention that cause for a few moments my mentality has been exactly that, "if women want an asshole, I will be one". And it has, in a way, changed me a little bit. Not that I am an asshole, cause I just can't be to be honest. Assholes to me are people that hurt people without really carrying about it. But I do...I just can't hurt people, I don't like it. It is wrong.

I am actually 23 and I am obviously still learning when it comes to the whole PUA world. At what age did you start learning? What age would you say is actually too old to pull them out of the Matrix?

Cheers,
-Jeet

PS. Good analogy btw. Going along those lines...I do wanna take the Red pill. I want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes...
 

Chase

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Hey Jeet,

Jeet02 said:
Chase,

[snip]

I am actually 23 and I am obviously still learning when it comes to the whole PUA world. At what age did you start learning? What age would you say is actually too old to pull them out of the Matrix?

Cheers,
-Jeet

PS. Good analogy btw. Going along those lines...I do wanna take the Red pill. I want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes...

I had a bunch of false starts in high school and college. I was going to nightclubs solo when I was 18, but I couldn't figure out how to pull and it really frustrated me; I ended up not going back after a string of initial failures for some time. And I always thought marriage was a bit socially contrived, and that most people had no clue how to run a good relationship or how to understand the opposite sex, as well as the fact that women loved bad boys and detested "nice guys." So I think a big part of the reason I didn't struggle with much bitterness was because I never really bought into mainstream society's fantasyland, even if I wasn't able to get results with women at first. I just assumed it was one big nut I hadn't figured out how to crack yet.

What age is too old to where you're going to have problems? It's very much dependent on what the guy's experience was like before. There are plenty of older guys who were married for a long time, got divorced, and then slip right into pickup like slipping into a glove because they had success with women early on and they intuitively grasped the way the world actually works. For a guy who's been indoctrinated, though, like hardcore, steeped in mainstream relationship B.S., anything after 20 or 21 years is usually too late for him to break out of it without going through some serious trauma. It really comes down to how much mental energy has he put into reinforcing this worldview in his mind. The more energy he's put into it, the harder a journey it is for him; the less he's thought about it, or the more he's doubted it, the less of a problem it is.

Chase
 

AFCnoob

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My ears are burning...;) Oh wait...still making noob moves, nvm.
 

Just_Dave

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The easiest way of looking at a "PUA" is looking at someone who's playing sport or video game. Everyone gets in with their own perspective and agenda. I personally, thought The Game was a decent book, but not good for learning how to pick up girls. It was more or less for me one person's story about playing baseball and why they didn't like it. On the other hand, I love baseball and I love girls. I stopped playing baseball and I currently work on a database, and I'm currently involved in a committed relationship. So I can't say everything is all bad about "PUA", it all comes down to what's your perspective and what do you want to do? I can tell you so far I'm achieving most of my goals and still more I'm striving for, but I would've never gotten this fair if I never played the game in the first place.

Take care,

Just Dave
 

Rationalis

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For me, I don't even see it as becoming a "PUA". I see all of this as a consequence of adapting sexually attractive behaviors and assimilating it into my daily life.
 
A

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Every undertaking in life has periods of booms and busts, highs and lows, that's what makes life fun and unpredictable. PUA sent me on an emotional roller coaster, I had the highest points in my life, like losing my virginity and having sex with a girl that was basically my dream girl, and some of the lowest points in my life. I've had disappointments, surprises, successes and huge failures. They're all fond memories now, and I look at it all as having been very positive. I'm proud of what I've done, and I know that if I had done something else, like stayed home and never expanded my comfort zone, I would not have had any of the lows, but I would not have had any of the highs either.
 

Flames

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Yes, the main reason people fail with women is because they don't really know who they are or what they want, PUA teaches you how to become a better version of yourself.

So undoubtably yes it's a good thing, like chase said it starts off a dark path, and then suddenly you see the light and all your days (well almost) are full of sunshine. :)
 

A Life Loquacious

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Franco said:
Once you view the world in this way, instead of working toward becoming a PUA, you work toward becoming a "lover of women." You give women the experiences they can only dream about, and in return, you prosper in just about every aspect of your life.

Rationalis said:
For me, I don't even see it as becoming a "PUA". I see all of this as a consequence of adapting sexually attractive behaviors and assimilating it into my daily life.


Exactly this. I've never been attracted to the rather selfish nature of the 'PUA' thing which - according to most key exponents whose material I have read - is more about pulling a 'short con' on a woman to sell yourself as something you're probably not; to trick her into letting her guard down, sleeping with her then moving on with no real interest in the human side of the interaction beyond saving the money you might otherwise have spent on sex workers.
Also 'classic' PUA is teaching an acquisition mindset; it's still more about going out there like the lion wanting to pick a gazelle or two from the herd. GC/Chase's technique seems to me to be more about ramping up passive attraction and turning yourself into the kind of person who women want to pull and all you need to do is know how to handle it when they do.
 

Jarradical

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Re: STICKIED: Is being a "PUA" worth it?

It's been a while since I read The Game, but I understood it to be more about impressing other men than picking up women.

The title Pick Up Artist is a little misleading anyway. The term doesn't adequately describe the goals and ideals of anyone studying Chase's method. It's about understanding the world better, and living life on your own terms. It's about adopting a mindset of improvement that pervades every aspect of your life. Yes, it's about being able to close on a girl and the following mutual sexual satisfaction, but it's also about becoming comfortable with yourself and developing the ability to analyse all social situations.

Don't let the negative connotations of the term PUA sway you; the rewards are absolutely worth the effort.

Jarradical
 
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Re: STICKIED: Is being a "PUA" worth it?

it's worth at the long run bcause you will learn alot ablout urself which means u will get more out of life
 

Grand Pooba

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Re: STICKIED: Is being a "PUA" worth it?

I have a related question to this thread: do your skills in dating and getting women continue to be successful over time, or does the situation change with age? I guess what I am asking is: what is the prime age range for dating, casual relationships, and so forth, if there is one?
 

Chase

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Re: STICKIED: Is being a "PUA" worth it?

Ozz said:
I have a related question to this thread: do your skills in dating and getting women continue to be successful over time, or does the situation change with age? I guess what I am asking is: what is the prime age range for dating, casual relationships, and so forth, if there is one?

That's a tough one to pin a tail on, Ozz, but I'd probably say 32 to 45 or so are the heights of a man's attractiveness, assuming he keeps thin and he has his career/money situation handled. Before that, he's still a promising young pup, and after that, his sex drive is usually somewhat declining and people are more likely to wonder what he's still doing on the dating market. It also gets harder to meet younger (i.e., early- to mid-20s) women when you're in your upper-40s (though not impossible; and, there's a distinct subset of women that PREFER to date older men... perhaps 10% of the young female population in the West, and higher in Asia, where it's more accepted).

As far as your skills maintaining - yes, from what I've seen. I've seen guys who were former players, who took time off for a 10-year marriage, the marriage ended, and they dove back in, a little hesitant at first, and a little rusty, but within a few months a lot of the rust was gone and they were catching back up to where they were a decade before. They do seem to endure... it's a lot like building muscle or learning to play piano. If you take a lot of time off, it'll go away, but once you're back at it it comes back pretty fast.

Chase
 

newgameplus

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Re: STICKIED: Is being a "PUA" worth it?

pickup is absolutely worth it. it sucks at first but it gives you freedom. it also prevents you from being a doormat if you ever do get into a relationship, and ultimately, the girl you're in a relationship with will respect you more regardless.
 
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