Is 'game' and seduction skill even important? Is the woman's choice more important?

[raiden]

For background, I'm an incel. Have been for years. I hired a few dating coaches and they suggested that I stay away from daygame for the moment and optimise my dating profile, get lots of dates and build up some positive experiences first. I ended up going on over 15 first dates over the past 9 months with nothing to show for it. I got laid off and I'm so angry with everything in my life that I've momentarily given up with women (I used to be a reasonable earner and fail with women so I don't think that being laid off will make me less attractive but who needs more rejection and stress while being laid off and frustrated..). I'm soon going to stop coaching because I'm not getting results.

Anyway, whenever my coaches and I went over my progress, they would analyze my dates and find out what went wrong. It was stuff like "you lost her because she opened up to you and you changed the subject" or "you spent too long on this subject and that's where you lost her". It made me think that the bar is extremely high. I tightened everything up so that women wouldn't have an easy reason to reject me and, more importantly, my coaches couldn't highlight anything. I still got rejected but this time for nonsense reasons.

I was discussing with some friends recently and it struck me that they did a lot wrong but still ended up with forgiveness from the woman, had second chances etc.
-I know a guy who screwed up kissing a woman in public on a date. She called it out as awkward but he still got more dates. I've kissed in public before and I'm confident that I escalated well and she woman enjoyed it at the time, but the woman never wanted to see me again.
-in general, guys I know have kissed in public and gotten more dates. Every time I've kissed in public, i've been rejected in the future and never got a further date . My coaches confirmed that it was a bad idea and even GC guidelines seem to say it, so I stopped. But why did it work for these guys?
-I've learned that a good date is one where the man is leading, both in conversation and the physical activities of the date, and the way that one can tell that it's a good date is that the woman is complying and seems to be enjoying it, and investing into it, possibly by just sharing information about herself. By this measure, guys I know have had bad dates but gotten more dates with the same woman. But how can a suboptimal date or poor game ever get you a good result with a woman?

So basically it seems like whatever 'game' is, the game that I'm playing isn't the same as the one the other guys are playing. It's like they're playing on normal difficulty and I'm playing on heaven or hell (one hit and it's game over) difficulty. I know that I have awful fundamentals and I can't really judge how good these guys' fundamentals are. Is it true then that game isn't really so important and you proceed or don't to the next stage of the courtship completely at the woman's discretion? Is 'game' closer to a game of luck or chance than a game of skill or ability? Is what we learn from books, the Internet, GC etc less about how to get girls and more about how to not screw up with girls who want to be gotten? Basically, are our results much less in our control than us game nerds would like to believe?

 

[DarkKnight]

I know that I have awful fundamentals and I can't really judge how good these guys' fundamentals are.

Bro this is a glaring weakness.. perhaps fix this so you get more leeway?

Also the friends you mention they encountered their girls through social circle I assume? Is different ballgame than cold approach or the DREADED online. Just stay away from online.

Get those fundamentals fixed first. Usually the best improvements can be done the fastest and excellence comes in much slower speed.

I mean when you say awful fundamentals what do you mean? Clothing? Can be easily fixed. Weight? You got to be patient and disciplined. You dont need to be jacked or whatever. Good health and self care but excellent clothing can do a lot for you.

Your problems dont sound that unfixable to me

Also if your fundamentals are awful what kind of girls match with you online which is looks based?

Sounds like your selling yourself short for all the wrong reasons.

 

[raiden]

Bro this is a glaring weakness.. perhaps fix this so you get more leeway?

Also the friends you mention they encountered their girls through social circle I assume? Is different ballgame than cold approach or the DREADED online. Just stay away from online.

Get those fundamentals fixed first. Usually the best improvements can be done the fastest and excellence comes in much slower speed.

I mean when you say awful fundamentals what do you mean? Clothing? Can be easily fixed. Weight? You got to be patient and disciplined. You dont need to be jacked or whatever. Good health and self care but excellent clothing can do a lot for you.

Your problems dont sound that unfixable to me

Also if your fundamentals are awful what kind of girls match with you online which is looks based?

Sounds like your selling yourself short for all the wrong reasons.

My awful fundamentals are all the God given ones. I have diminutive height and I guess that I have other poor features too (ethnicity, hair color, facial structure... I don't know what it is but I'm definitely unattractive). I bought clothes that fit and got in shape but, as they say, that's like putting a dinner jacket on a hog. I've had multiple professional photoshoots (recommended by coaches) and that probably helped my online profile. I also went to a vocal coach and they said that I made incredible progress and can do without a vocal coach from now on. It didn't help my results with women one iota, however.

These guys meet these women from different avenues. One of them has never done approaching and so meets women through online dating services or social media. But there's no trend to suggest that they'd have the same results as I if they did what I did. None of them have even had half as many first dates as I have.

 

[Mr.SocialAcceptableHarem]

Get a GC coach.

You know your getting good quality with them.

There is some hidden factor that is causing all of this and they can find it.

Personally I think this is an inner game thing.

Do you have any predispositions or disorders?

Anxiety, Depression, Trauma?

If your vibe is off, woman won’t want to touch you with a ten foot pole

I know this from experience, if I approach and my mental is even slightly off, the whole approach can be compromised.

Sure bad looks are a handicap, but with proper fundamentals, mostly vibe and non verbals, you can overcompensate that

Proper mindset can take care of bad fundamentals easily, you feel like a pimp and you will act like a pimp

However how @Karea Ricardus D. mentioned in a recent thread, it is kinda a catch 22 to get the momentum going with confidence and self esteem because you need results in order to feel confide

I suggest changing your belief system so even without momentum you fill good about yourself

Write down all of your good qualities and achievements and look at that list everyday

Also

Search NLP anchoring techniques to create a trigger that will instantly make you feel good about yourself.

You will have to visualize a success in the past or in the future during the anchoring technique and this will provide you with good emotions. The more and more you utilize the anchor, the stronger it will become

An example is pressing your thumbs together when your visualization is at its peak. That way you will associate that thumb press with your visualization

I remember the last time I had sex when I do this technique and it makes me feel extremely sexual and confident

A small ego boost during the day, that will only grow the more I use it

Keep that in mind, and see how it works

Best,

Biggus

 

[raiden]

Get a GC coach.

You know your getting good quality with them.

There is some hidden factor that is causing all of this and they can find it.

Personally I think this is an inner game thing.

Do you have any predispositions or disorders?

Anxiety, Depression, Trauma?

If your vibe is off, woman won’t want to touch you with a ten foot pole

I know this from experience, if I approach and my mental is even slightly off, the whole approach can be compromised.

Sure bad looks are a handicap, but with proper fundamentals, mostly vibe and non verbals, you can overcompensate that

Proper mindset can take care of bad fundamentals easily, you feel like a pimp and you will act like a pimp

However how @Karea Ricardus D. mentioned in a recent thread, it is kinda a catch 22 to get the momentum going with confidence and self esteem because you need results in order to feel confide

I suggest changing your belief system so even without momentum you fill good about yourself

Write down all of your good qualities and achievements and look at that list everyday

Also

Search NLP anchoring techniques to create a trigger that will instantly make you feel good about yourself.

You will have to visualize a success in the past or in the future during the anchoring technique and this will provide you with good emotions. The more and more you utilize the anchor, the stronger it will become

An example is pressing your thumbs together when your visualization is at its peak. That way you will associate that thumb press with your visualization

I remember the last time I had sex when I do this technique and it makes me feel extremely sexual and confident

A small ego boost during the day, that will only grow the more I use it

Keep that in mind, and see how it works

Best,

Biggus

I have or had depression because I'm an incel.

I've read the book on NLP and the anchoring techniques but I thought that, now, in 2023, NLP is considered to be bunk. Is it? There are times that I've felt plenty confident going into dates just to be shot down. In fact my last online date experience, which was so disillusioning that I went and gave up, was just like that.

 

[Will_V]

For background, I'm an incel. Have been for years. I hired a few dating coaches and they suggested that I stay away from daygame for the moment and optimise my dating profile, get lots of dates and build up some positive experiences first. I ended up going on over 15 first dates over the past 9 months with nothing to show for it. I got laid off and I'm so angry with everything in my life that I've momentarily given up with women (I used to be a reasonable earner and fail with women so I don't think that being laid off will make me less attractive but who needs more rejection and stress while being laid off and frustrated..). I'm soon going to stop coaching because I'm not getting results.

First of all, when you're bitterly angry at something, whatever it is, it's very hard to make someone enjoy spending time with you. That alone can destroy any results you might have, because people (especially women) feed off emotions and will escape from negative ones.

Anyway, whenever my coaches and I went over my progress, they would analyze my dates and find out what went wrong. It was stuff like "you lost her because she opened up to you and you changed the subject" or "you spent too long on this subject and that's where you lost her". It made me think that the bar is extremely high. I tightened everything up so that women wouldn't have an easy reason to reject me and, more importantly, my coaches couldn't highlight anything. I still got rejected but this time for nonsense reasons.

First of all, it's very interesting that the two examples you picked of where you messed up involve the subject of the conversation. The subject is IRRELEVANT. What is important is how the thing you're talking about, and how you are saying it, makes her feel.

Seduction is about emotional contagion, the spreading of un-inhibition from one person to another. You cannot get through inhibitions with facts, you have to get through them with emotions - the desire to feel, to be intimate with someone, to hear the music of another person's adventurous spirit.

You have to understand, for a woman a sexual experience is an experience of being overwhelmed by the presence of another person, emotionally and physically. If that person is bitter, angry, inhibited, or just plain boring, the prospect of that becomes very very unpleasant. The key is to make her enjoy your presence so much that she wants to lose herself in it, to completely open and let it inside to replace all her worries and anxieties with intimacy, pleasure, and 'joie de vivre'.

You are thinking about the subject of your conversations, your appearance, your money. How will any of these satisfy her when her eyes are squeezed shut and she's getting slammed? The only thing that is going to satisfy her, which she knows, is how you make her feel all the time she's around you. This is what gets amplified 100x during sex. If you cannot make her feel things during the approach, on dates, etc, she cannot submit to sex because that sex does not have anything to amplify.

So I would like to ask you - what is your process of sexual escalation, from the time of the approach, all the way through the date, and back home?

I was discussing with some friends recently and it struck me that they did a lot wrong but still ended up with forgiveness from the woman, had second chances etc.
-I know a guy who screwed up kissing a woman in public on a date. She called it out as awkward but he still got more dates. I've kissed in public before and I'm confident that I escalated well and she woman enjoyed it at the time, but the woman never wanted to see me again.
-in general, guys I know have kissed in public and gotten more dates. Every time I've kissed in public, i've been rejected in the future and never got a further date . My coaches confirmed that it was a bad idea and even GC guidelines seem to say it, so I stopped. But why did it work for these guys?
-I've learned that a good date is one where the man is leading, both in conversation and the physical activities of the date, and the way that one can tell that it's a good date is that the woman is complying and seems to be enjoying it, and investing into it, possibly by just sharing information about herself. By this measure, guys I know have had bad dates but gotten more dates with the same woman. But how can a suboptimal date or poor game ever get you a good result with a woman?

Simple, they made her feel things and want more.

So basically it seems like whatever 'game' is, the game that I'm playing isn't the same as the one the other guys are playing. It's like they're playing on normal difficulty and I'm playing on heaven or hell (one hit and it's game over) difficulty. I know that I have awful fundamentals and I can't really judge how good these guys' fundamentals are. Is it true then that game isn't really so important and you proceed or don't to the next stage of the courtship completely at the woman's discretion? Is 'game' closer to a game of luck or chance than a game of skill or ability? Is what we learn from books, the Internet, GC etc less about how to get girls and more about how to not screw up with girls who want to be gotten? Basically, are our results much less in our control than us game nerds would like to believe?

The funny thing about women is that they aren't completely in control of their attraction. They don't really choose, they just feel and react, feel and react, either positively or negatively. Most of their 'points of view' on anything at all are backward rationalizations. This means that you are pretty much responsible for how you make her react and behave toward you, via how you make her feel.

The thing is, when a guy doesn't understand this, he will naturally think that women are these judgement machines who think to themselves 'yes this guy has X, Y and Z, I will fuck' or 'no this guy does not meet this criteria, will not fuck'. But this is sheer ignorance. Yes, her reactions will reflect how you present yourself via her emotional responses - but that my friend is entirely where game comes into the equation!

 

[Spyce D]

"Is practicing and improving my football basics more important ? Or is it the coach choice that is more important ?"

 

[Spyce D]

@raiden just curious , where are you from ?

Cuz I remember reading about arrange marriage in one of your posts .

Dm me privately , if you don't wanna share it publically

 

[topcat]

For background, I'm an incel. Have been for years. I hired a few dating coaches and they suggested that I stay away from daygame for the moment and optimise my dating profile, get lots of dates and build up some positive experiences first. I ended up going on over 15 first dates over the past 9 months with nothing to show for it. I got laid off and I'm so angry with everything in my life that I've momentarily given up with women (I used to be a reasonable earner and fail with women so I don't think that being laid off will make me less attractive but who needs more rejection and stress while being laid off and frustrated..). I'm soon going to stop coaching because I'm not getting results.

Anyway, whenever my coaches and I went over my progress, they would analyze my dates and find out what went wrong. It was stuff like "you lost her because she opened up to you and you changed the subject" or "you spent too long on this subject and that's where you lost her". It made me think that the bar is extremely high. I tightened everything up so that women wouldn't have an easy reason to reject me and, more importantly, my coaches couldn't highlight anything. I still got rejected but this time for nonsense reasons.

I was discussing with some friends recently and it struck me that they did a lot wrong but still ended up with forgiveness from the woman, had second chances etc.
-I know a guy who screwed up kissing a woman in public on a date. She called it out as awkward but he still got more dates. I've kissed in public before and I'm confident that I escalated well and she woman enjoyed it at the time, but the woman never wanted to see me again.
-in general, guys I know have kissed in public and gotten more dates. Every time I've kissed in public, i've been rejected in the future and never got a further date . My coaches confirmed that it was a bad idea and even GC guidelines seem to say it, so I stopped. But why did it work for these guys?
-I've learned that a good date is one where the man is leading, both in conversation and the physical activities of the date, and the way that one can tell that it's a good date is that the woman is complying and seems to be enjoying it, and investing into it, possibly by just sharing information about herself. By this measure, guys I know have had bad dates but gotten more dates with the same woman. But how can a suboptimal date or poor game ever get you a good result with a woman?

So basically it seems like whatever 'game' is, the game that I'm playing isn't the same as the one the other guys are playing. It's like they're playing on normal difficulty and I'm playing on heaven or hell (one hit and it's game over) difficulty. I know that I have awful fundamentals and I can't really judge how good these guys' fundamentals are. Is it true then that game isn't really so important and you proceed or don't to the next stage of the courtship completely at the woman's discretion? Is 'game' closer to a game of luck or chance than a game of skill or ability? Is what we learn from books, the Internet, GC etc less about how to get girls and more about how to not screw up with girls who want to be gotten? Basically, are our results much less in our control than us game nerds would like to believe?

Hmmm, the thing that sticks out to me in all this is the “my friends have gotten more dates off of bad game , while i get one chance and it’s over” part.

Sounds to me like these chicks might actually like you, but you’re just not moving fast enough. You may actually be giving off the vibe that you’re a guy that knows what he’s doing, but when you drop the ball by not making a move when you should (ie. actually pull and close things off), they go cold. More dates is no indicator of a good or even promising seduction, and is more an indicator of a man complying with a woman’s date strategy. How many of these friends of yours actually got laid at the end of it?

Your head’s in the wrong place. I think if you focused on closing things out more aggressively and less on your “ethnicity” “height” or “looks” (you unironically called yourself a hog for fucks sake) you might actually find results and sex aren’t as far outside your reach as you assume..

 

[Chase]

@raiden,

So basically it seems like whatever 'game' is, the game that I'm playing isn't the same as the one the other guys are playing. It's like they're playing on normal difficulty and I'm playing on heaven or hell (one hit and it's game over) difficulty.

Sign of low attainability.

Girls will continue to give you chances (within reason) if your attainability is high enough. If it's too low, blow it once and they auto-reject.

Is it true then that game isn't really so important and you proceed or don't to the next stage of the courtship completely at the woman's discretion?

That's a bit like saying, "Is it true that fighting skill isn't really so important and you win a boxing match or lose solely at your opponent's discretion?"

Yes, it depends on the opponent (or girl). If you lack the strength, speed, and agility (fundamentals) against a much tougher opponent (girl), your fighting ability (game) may not save you. On the other hand, if you're more evenly matched fundamentals-wise, better skill (game) on your part makes a victory likely. If your fighting skill (game) is exceptional enough, you can pull off upset victories against opponents (girls) you're seemingly (but actually not) over-matched by.

Is 'game' closer to a game of luck or chance than a game of skill or ability?

No.

When you are an experienced seducer, you can go out, speak to a small number of women, and find one you are attracted to who will go to bed with you (either right now or later). When you are an inexperienced seducer, you may speak to hundreds of women and not get laid. The biggest difference between these two men is not height or face or skin color or the other things you are thinking it is... there are tons of beautiful men with elegant physical appearances who struggle to get laid, and a bunch of very scrubby seducers who can get laid reliably.

To a man who does not understand seduction, he may look at the scrubby guy who keeps getting laid, and in light of the pretty boys who aren't, throw up his hands in the air and say, "Wow, that scrubby guy SURE IS LUCKY! He's REALLY, REALLY LUCKY! He's got the luck of the gods on his side! Fortune sure has smiled upon that chap over there!" but all that tells you is the guy who thinks it's all luck is clueless and has no idea what is going on.

Is what we learn from books, the Internet, GC etc less about how to get girls and more about how to not screw up with girls who want to be gotten? Basically, are our results much less in our control than us game nerds would like to believe?

No.

How to Get Girls Who Seem Closed Off or Impossible

Some girls are closed off when you approach them. Some reject you – HARD! Some might even seem impossible to get. Is there a way to get these girls… or is there not? Over on the discussion boards, we have of late had a dustup where a collection of several of our experienced members along with...

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Read this:

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A reader recently contributed another comment to the article "When Women Test Men." Like many of the commenters on that article, he balked; "Why should I have to learn how to deal with women's tests? Women should simply like me for ME, and NEVER test me!" In one way, I sympathize. It's no fun...

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... and this:

Males of Every Species Must Learn Game to Mate

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... and this:

“I Can’t Get Girls Because Girls Only Want [BLANK]”

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... then finally this:

The Guide to Getting Hot Girls (of Any Type)

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Then do everything in that last post I just linked you.

Meantime, delete the dating apps.

You can go back on there again once you have enough real world interaction happening with women.

Online should be a supplement though -- not the main event. You need to practice socialization:

Anyway, whenever my coaches and I went over my progress, they would analyze my dates and find out what went wrong. It was stuff like "you lost her because she opened up to you and you changed the subject" or "you spent too long on this subject and that's where you lost her". It made me think that the bar is extremely high. I tightened everything up so that women wouldn't have an easy reason to reject me and, more importantly, my coaches couldn't highlight anything. I still got rejected but this time for nonsense reasons.

Well, if you're making newbie-ish mistakes in conversation with women who are more conversationally experienced than you, then that will kill your chances, yeah:

Social Skills 101: Basic Social Skills Are 100% Crucial

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www.girlschase.com

Not for the reason you think. When I was a newbie I thought girls could tell I was inexperienced from my bumbling conversation. What I realized later was that guys who aren't smooth socially end up looking like disinterested in the woman or just interested in themselves a lot of the time.

All this is stuff you will figure out with social experience.

You won't figure it out sitting on the benches staring out into the world trying to figure out all the rules from the sidelines.

Chase

edit: also, read @Beam's latest journal update about his friend Enzo:

Cultivating the X Factor

Who are Gold and Stache? Are they naturals? PUAs? You can simply ask them what they do or say Or observe them and pay attention Compare with yours, test and see what works Gold is my housemate. I've never met anyone better than him with women in person. Stache is his mate (now mine too) who...

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[DarkKnight]

What I realized later was that guys who aren't smooth socially end up looking like disinterested in the woman or just interested in themselves a lot of the time.

Ah.. this ofcourse also works in reverse. Perhaps even more so

 

[Warped Mindless]

You the same raiden that was on RSD nation like 10 years ago saying he can’t get laid due to his race?

 

[Bill]

How is your frame? Often you can recover from mess ups if your frame is solid. Are you needy and anxious, when you make a mistake do you feel like you messed up rather than just laugh it off?

 

[Conquistador]

My awful fundamentals are all the God given ones. I have diminutive height and I guess that I have other poor features too (ethnicity, hair color, facial structure... I don't know what it is but I'm definitely unattractive). I bought clothes that fit and got in shape but, as they say, that's like putting a dinner jacket on a hog.

Lots of successful PUAs like this. Not an excuse imho

I have or had depression because I'm an ince

Get fully evaluated for everything, and be completely honest. If nothing else, it will help your peace of mind. You’re a male from (based on what you said) either an ethnic minority or another country, so it’s pretty likely that any conditions you have wouldn’t have been diagnosed for one reason or another.

My father’s parents were immigrants and let’s just say that fact has something to do with how he was only diagnosed with ADHD quite recently — after he had been already seeing someone for depression and anxiety for quite a while. My brother prizes his status as the only member of the family with zero official diagnoses of any kind, to the extent that he is slowly screwing himself over by avoiding any possibility of that changing (officially).


Anyway…
Certain flavors of depression can be worse than anything else for your vibe, and I mean anything else. That kind of depression usually has different roots than typical male patterns do.

My suggestion is: stop calling yourself an incel because it’s not helping and is a powerful piece of negative self-talk. You mention it in every OP of yours and it’s the worst frame you could possibly have.

Stop believing that you can’t get girls, as you seem to believe on some level. It’s not helping.

I've read the book on NLP and the anchoring techniques but I thought that, now, in 2023, NLP is considered to be bunk.

It doesn’t really matter honestly. There’s a difference between a study saying no improvement over placebo in a general context, and it not being a helpful tool for inner game.

Fwiw I don’t worry about NLP techniques at all. A lot of classical PUA methods used them but you can go without.


What I’m seeing from everything you’ve described over time is that there’s something significant that’s not getting addressed.

I can’t be sure, but I think it’s a lack of presence/calibration. This could be due to a lot of things and the root cause(s) probably doesn’t matter that much as that you probably just need to address that issue directly, by a combination of mindset changes, habit changes (e.g. meditation), and field experience.

Get some female feedback asap btw. It’ll help.

One last thing. Recently, I saw with my own eyes that it’s possible for a person to be completely out of touch with their body and other things, while appearing to be normal and fairly functional. This friend of mine was talking about how out of it he had been feeling, so I suggested he do a certain simple meditation exercise as a benchmark. Lo and behold, he had a lot of trouble with it, but just trying really seemed to help his state.