Is narcissism actually a negative trait?

[Thinkingenigma]

So I took the NPI (Narcissistic Personality Inventory) at Psyc Central (http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/narcissistic.htm) and scored a 29, which is super high.

Below, I've posted my individual scores (out of 10, I think. Could be 9. Anything higher than a 3 in each category is considered high.) next to the breakdown of each trait, along with a bit of my own commentary.

TL;DR: After reading the breakdown of my score, I'm not so sure that it's a bad thing. Several of the traits that I scored highest in are rather beneficial traits imo.
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Authority = 7

"Authority refers to a person's leadership skills and power. People who score higher on authority like to be in charge and gain power, often for power's sake alone. You scored particularly high in authority, suggesting you see yourself as a leader or as someone who values power."

I personally view power as a means to an end, usually to retain my own independence, though I definitely see it's utility. This one seems pretty neutral, as desire for power is fairly amoral, and the motivation behind the desire is what makes this either constructive or destructive.

Self-Sufficiency = 4

"This trait refers to how self-sufficient a person is, that is, how much you rely on others versus your own abilities to meet your needs in life. You scored particularly high in self-sufficiency, suggesting you are highly self sufficient."

This one seems to be a good trait to have. If you're self sufficient, you can determine your own course in life rather than being forced into a life path that you don't want

Superiority = 4

"This trait refers to whether a person feels they are more superior than those around them. You scored particularly high in superiority, suggesting you feel you are superior to most others."

This is true. I'm more resourceful and creative than most of my peers, though that might have something to do with being in college, which means this could change after graduation, though I doubt it. This is one reason why I am currently working full time in my chosen field (and making good money, I might add) in an area where my skill set isn't in high demand, outcompeting older and more established competitors as a college senior. All the while, my peers are still floundering around trying to figure out which entry level career position is best for them. So yeah, I feel superior right now.

This trait could be a bad thing if not justified, but I see no reason for false humility for humility's sake if it is justified, thus making this a neutral trait.

Exhibitionism = 5

"This trait refers to a person's need to be the center of attention, and willingness to ensure they are the center of attention (even at the expense of others' needs). You score particularly high in exhibitionism, suggesting you have a higher need than most to be the center of attention in any group or gathering."

I can be rather gregarious at social events, though it's usually in an effort to get everyone else to have fun too. Thus I see this as a goof trait.

Exploitativeness = 5

"This trait refers to how willing you are to exploit others in order to meet your own needs or goals. You scored particularly high in exploitativeness, suggesting you don't mind exploiting others in order to meet your own needs or goals."

Everyone has a great amount of potential, but if someone isn't making the most of their potential for themselves, I see no reason not to bring it out of them in service to myself. My hope is that they realize their capabilities while working for me, and that realization would benefit them long after our working relationship is through. Once again, this trait is rather amoral and becomes a good or bad thing based on the intentions of the possessor

Vanity= 2

"This trait refers to a person's vanity, or their belief in one's own superior abilities and attractiveness compared to others."

Obviously, there will always be people who are better than me in any given skill. I seek those people out and learn as much from them as I can. I have no false illusions of being the absolute best, I'm just willing to work harder to be the best eventually.

This is a negative trait as it serves no useful purpose.

Entitlement = 2

"This trait refers to the expectation and amount of entitlement a person has in their lives, that is, unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with one's expectations. People who score higher on this trait generally have a greater expectation of entitlement, while those who score lower expect little from others or life."

Life doesn't owe you anything. Therefore, entitlement is bad because it conditions you to expect the unreasonable.

I can talk my way into or out of just about anything, but I don't expect people to put my needs before their own. Because of this, I always make sure to frame my requests in such a way as to benefit the person who I'm requesting something from, thus creating value for both parties.
__________________________________________________________

So, What do you think? Is narcissism as bad as society would have us think? It certainly wouldn't be good for society if everyone was a narcissist, but I think that a healthy dose of benevolent narcissism benefits everyone.

On the other hand, people that score high in the two negative traits could be very detrimental to both themselves and society at large, as seen in American entitlement culture.

Thoughts?

 

[Franco]

TE,

I'm not really looking to comment on the philosophy of this, but I do always have fun taking the quizzes. For reference and your own personal use/analysis, here were my scores:

• Authority: 8.00
  Self-Sufficiency: 3.00
  Superiority: 4.00
  Exhibitionism: 2.00
  Exploitativeness: 3.00
  Vanity: 1.00
  Entitlement: 1.00

- Franco

 

[TheWiseFool]

After taking the quiz (I scored a 12 aka average) and thinking about the questions afterwards, I wouldn't say that scoring high in narcissism is a bad thing. I believe in the idea that your thoughts create your future because who you are becomes more in line with the thoughts you think EVERY SINGLE MOMENT. If you think you are a good leader and have past experience that backs up and supports such a claim, that is great. The same for influencing, manipulating, or reading people. For any question regarding being the center of attention or receiving compliments, if you preferred being in the center or receiving compliments, maybe you are just used to such things because of past experience, rather than some reason like, being insecure and constantly needing to feel important and validated. Personally, in regard to the question about leadership, I think of myself as better than most when it comes to leading others, but I selected "It takes a lot of time to become a good leader" because I am a long-range thinker and my perception of being good at something means being a master. Mastery of anything takes quite a long time to develop, think of the 10,000 hour rule. If you had really good reasons as to why you selected the answers you selected and not simply because, "Yea, I like the sound of being a good leader" or "Hell yea I am an extraordinary person," then I wouldn't be too worried. There isn't a one size fits all quiz for everyone, especially these psychology quizzes that try to type everyone into a certain thing. All depends really. Example: I tended to choose the questions that said sometimes or off to the center because, from my own experience, it is better to be humble and having others raise you up, rather than raising yourself up. That does not mean I am saying you are narcissistic, I just choose a certain preferred "plan of attack" when it comes to dealing with others.

 

[Gentle_Phrases]

Narcissists get all the girls bro: http://www.dangerandplay.com/2014/05/14 ... -like-you/

From the paper: Why Are Narcissists so Charming at First Sight? Decoding the Narcissism–Popularity Link at Zero Acquaintance. “Recent findings also show that narcissism is detectable at zero acquaintance. Observers thus seem to like narcissists at first sight, although they accurately perceive their narcissism.”...It gets more interesting, as researchers found that, “the aspects of narcissism that are most maladaptive in the long run (exploitativeness/entitlement) proved to be most attractive at zero acquaintance.”

Inner game hack? I smell an article...

 

[Raqimus]

I also love quizzes, I got :
Authority: 6
Self sufficiency: 3
Superiority: 4
Exhibitionism: 1
Exploitativeness: 4
Vanity: 3
Entitlement: 3
Which gives me my lucky number 24 :,) ... I expected I was already quite the narcissist.

 

[Drck]

Narcissism may not be bad, at least not up to some point. Here are some aspects of narcissistic personality that can be quite useful in seduction as well as in other parts of life:

* Self-importance: You want to be important, if you feel you are not important you won't create much attraction. If you are not feeling important people will walk over you, they won't respect you

* Fantasies of unlimited success: You might want to have some fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance or ideal love. If you don't fantasize you won't achieve anything that is above average. You don't have to be Number 1 all the time, but you want to be above average. It shows that you are motivated, active.

* Believes that you are "special": You want to believe that you are "special". You are unique anyway, there is no one like you on this planet, and you should be able to "sell" or suggest your uniqueness to girls. They don't want average boring guy, they want somebody unique, special...

* Sense of entitlement: You probably want at least some entitlement. If you feel entitled to her pussy it just help with your overall attitude and frame. You want to feel like you deserve that pussy, it just makes things easier. On the other hand, if you are taking welfare for months and years, and still feel that everyone else owes you just because you have nice eyes - well, get a fucking job already! No one owes NOTHING, not a single penny, not one little smile! Go wash fucking dishes if that is the best you can do, what do I care, not my problem...

* Lacks empathy: You want to lack some empathy, assuming that you have plenty of it. You are not a savior, you just can't save everyone on this planet, and you don't have to empathize with every single person either. If you want to add some "asshole-ness" to your personality you just can't empathize with every person you meet. On the other hand, if you don't have any empathy you should be intensively working on it.

* Show arrogant attitude: You can show some arrogance. Girls say they don't like arrogant people, but look at arrogant guys, they usually have a hotty next to them.

They are lots of arrogant assholes without empathy who believe they are special, better then the rest, who are entitled - and they have girls along their side you can only dream about...

You should always check with reality though, it is very easy to overshoot with narcissism. You don't want to ended up being a successful politician who enthusiastically claims he will do what people want, and then does the exact opposite. You don't want to end up chasing people with weapons either, just because you think you are the coolest guy around and girls owe you...

 

[Chase]

There's tremendous disagreement in psychological circles about what narcissism actually is.

Some psychologists will tell you that narcissism is a product of deep-seated insecurity and low self-esteem, stemming from a narcissistic injury (or scar) tracing back to early on in someone's life. This view was popularized by Freud and seems to be the predominant current view. From this perspective, the narcissist's inflated self-image is a hardened protective outer shell to safeguard the wounded inner child.

Some modern psychologists have commented that trying to differentiate between narcissism and good old fashioned high self-esteem is messy and next to impossible, and it makes more sense to just say that narcissism is not a personality disorder but just high self-esteem instead.

There are also some who dub narcissism "the effect of success"; basically, as you win more and more, you become ballsier and ballsier and more self-assured and less worried about failure, and trust in your own abilities to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat to increasingly high degree.

Personally, I think it's a combination of success rates vs. failure rates plus what influences are beaming into your skull.

Success rates vs. failure rates is basically imagine two kids:

#1 has succeeded at everything he's ever tried to do: when he wanted to become captain of the little league football team, he did it; when he wanted to get his painting posted in a museum's children's art show, he got it; when he wanted to make the honor roll, he did; when he wanted to land the head cheerleader as his first girlfriend, he landed her.

#2 has failed at everything he's ever tried to do: when he wanted to become captain of the little league team, he didn't even make it onto the team in the first place; when he wanted to get his painting in the art show the teacher didn't even bother to submit it; when he wanted to make the honor roll, he barely passed; when he wanted to date the head cheerleader, her jock boyfriend mocked him, and even her less attractive friends thought he was a joke.

Even if Kid #1 has led a charmed life and had a perfect family, it's going to be hard for him not to get a big head. And no matter what Kid #2's background, it's almost impossible for him to not start thinking of himself as an inept failure. Our self-images, unless we are deeply disturbed, tend to pretty well reflect the averaged views of us that those around us communicate to us they have of us.

The other one is influences. Narcissism's on a big rise in the West, primarily due to advertising. Every time you switch on the TV, go to the movies, or surf the web you get bombarded with advertisements telling you that you are special and greatness is within your reach (all you have to do is open up your wallet and it's yours), or that there is an untapped hero lurking within you just waiting to save the world and get the girl. No matter how much you logically realize this is all ultimately to earn a buck for the guy who's packaged it up and selling it to you, your subconscious mind doesn't care; it's input, and it gets processed as being every bit as reliable as all the other input you suck in. The more of this stuff makes up your world (and increasingly, our lives are spent playing video games, watching movies, and surfing advertising-enabled Internet sites), the more sway over you it holds, and the more it affects your own views of your own power.

The primary danger of narcissism I think is getting too big a head for yourself. I've watched several very successful and very capable friends sink their own ships by getting too high on themselves and either alienating others they needed to support them, burning through their limited resources far too fast because they figured they could always get more but then weren't able to, or taking on so much that they eventually collapsed beneath the burden (I've been guilty of the latter myself). These are also one of the big equalizers you see when you study the men of history; pride often leads to great men's collapses.

You hear the phrase "pride cometh before a fall", but until you witness it firsthand a couple of times (or experience it yourself) it's kind of an interesting but abstract concept; once you have experience with it though, you realize that excessive pride is perhaps the greatest danger to the very successful man - only when he starts overestimating his capabilities by too large a margin and underestimating his opponents too greatly does the man who knows how to succeed finally stumble.

Chase

 

[Drck]

I don't like these tests at all, you can usually figure out where are the answers leading, and then select the one that will satisfy you.

Main difference between narcissistic personality disorder and high self-esteem (for instance) is that the disorder usually interfere with the person's life, or with lives of others. There might be nothing wrong with person who has very high self-esteem, but there is something wrong with a guy who is narcissistic and whose actions interfere with other people's lives.

For example, narcissistic person can easily become a boss because of his inflated views that he presents to others. He then fires several people because they don't meet his unrealistic expectations (which are way above the norm). Person with high self-esteem would not do that because he can still understand what the norms are and if the employees meet them.

When you browse through the personality disorders you can frequently identify yourself. The reason is, that many of the described characteristics are part of every human being. For instance anxiety. Everybody gets anxious, but not everybody get so anxious that he can't function (sleep, focus, ...). Everbody can get grandious once in a while (yes, pull up that thick vallet and pay for that hot chick! ) but not everybody get so grandious that he spends all he has, and then he borrows money so he can spend even more....

 

[Thedoctor]

There are also some who dub narcissism "the effect of success"; basically, as you win more and more, you become ballsier and ballsier and more self-assured and less worried about failure, and trust in your own abilities to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat to increasingly high degree.

Immediately made me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YqoI84-9vA

-John

 

[Chase]

That's a great movie. The whole thing was just unbelievably hilarious from start to finish. I think it was just the unexpectedness of it. Things just happen that are so absurd, but in a believable "yeah, that could happen and probably does happen" way that it was good. And the characters were all very fresh and not standard comedy film tropes that've been done to death a thousand times, too. In fact, it starts off with the tired "overly ballsy law enforcement guys" and then kills them right off.

But yeah - that scene is an absurdist version of exactly that sentiment! Head too full of hot air and it takes you right over the edge of the building and into the pavement.

Chase

 

[Indian Race Troll (IRT)]

Not really, I feel like a lot of the darker traits are actually helpful for getting ahead and attracting women.

 

[Black]

For reference. . . and I'm down there at 0 results over long periods:

Authority: 3.00
Self-Sufficiency: 1.00
Superiority: 3.00
Exhibitionism: 2.00
Exploitativeness: 0.00
Vanity: 3.00
Entitlement: 4.00

____________________________

Now, I used to know a lot of these cluster B types who are awesome with girls; most likely naturals as they (or me for that matter) were not from anywhere where pick-up tech is popular. . .

I feel the typical PUA discourse would frame any criticism on my part as me being an "AFC jealous of them getting poon" but the issue is not that at all.
In fact, looking back after reading the articles here I can identify a lot of useful things these guys were doing:
- moving things forward fast
- frame control / using chase frames
- telling stories about them being sexual / dominant / popular
- generally good fundamentals
- being "edgy"
- cold approaching all over the place, not just at nightclubs

The negative part and the real reason why I ended up loathing (and staying the hell away from) the people like this that I knew:
- relentless status climbing behaviour; useless as wingmen; even if there was just 2 of us they'd try to tool me in front of girls
- in social circle they'd become visibly angry if it wasn't all about them; lashing out and making a scene; or "retaliating" later
- lying, trying to manipulate me or others, spreading rumors
- bro code? forget it

I used to know this guy, he invited me on a trip with him and suggested I bring my (female) friends with me.
I agreed as we were in good terms and these girls were just friends who were obese and so not attractive to either of us (particularly to him who was getting awesome poon elsewhere).
Once we set out and for the three days the trip lasted, he did a 180 degree personality change and systematically tooled me and tried to drive wedges between me and these girls. It was one thing after the other. He was also upset and protested because I happened to share a room with them while he had to share a room with some other dude (????).
This got to the point where, the last day, one of the girls asked me to put my bag on the ground, because the ground was dirty and she wanted my space for her bag; I obviously said "no-way-José lol" (no need to read the compliance article for this) and he butted in threatening to punch-me-in-the face if I didn't comply. That moment I thought for a second "fine, what if I just beat this guy up?" - unlike me he didnt workout or have any MMA training.
I didn't beat him up. . . gave them a look and complied.
However, the last time I saw him, me and another guy had to rescue him from under a pile African guys (read: from Africa, not afro-american) about to beat him up and escort him from the club door to wherever we could just throw him into a taxi. Apparently he had walked into their mixed group with "drinks for the ladies".

. . .and good luck if you happen to have one of these characters as a relative or parent.

As for the usefulness of the consideration, I don't think you can will yourself into cluster B or whatever other DSM category you fancy. . .

__

Edit:

Disclaimer:

1) Things like narcissism are considered a disorder (a problem) on the basis of the consequences, not their own intrinsic nature. In other words and generally speaking, if your life is not submerged in chaos, conflict and drama then you most likely don't have it. Online quizzes may be fun to take thou. . .

2) Things like having good fundamentals, moving fast, flirting well and ultimately getting results are still awesome on their own ground (obviously).
Good leaders who get a lot of girls and make the pie bigger for everyone (win-win mentality) are awesome too.

 

[Ambiance]

Old topic, I know. I happened to check what Girlschase had to say about narcissism after taking the test on psychcentral.com, and voila, found this old topic about the same exact test.

My results:

Authority: 8.00
Self-sufficiency: 4.00
Superiority: 4.00
Exhibitionism: 3.00
Exploitativeness: 4.00
Vanity: 3.00
Entitlement: 5.00

Total: 31, well above the test's criterion for what qualifies as a narcissist.

I would say that I am a careful narcissist. Forum posts like this are the closest I come to talking all about myself, and a big part of that is because I treat it like a journal for my own future reference. Being aware of conversational etiquette and not wanting to come across as a low class individual definitely makes me feel uncomfortable going on too long about myself. I want others doing the talking so that they feel more connected to me and so I get to control the conversation. Just as importantly, I want to hear all about the other person. It feels good to emote with someone. As cold as I have become over the years, I remember back when I was younger and had such a big heart and cared about people more than anything, and have done my best to preserve part of my heart despite all the times I was hurt that made me erect walls to protect myself.

I guess I do like to explain myself and the "superior way I think". Everyone, look at Ambiance and how brilliant he is. I'm kinda even doing it now xD. I definitely have a thing for superiority.

Chase is totally right about narcissism setting you up for some big falls. In college I definitely aliented myself from my cousins, one of whom was my roommate, thinking I could be a dick to them in response to some of their bs and remain unscathed. These cousins ended up telling my aunt over Thanksgiving break about all the girls I was sleeping with, and she of course told my dad, and now I am back home trying to make enough money to return to college on my own. While I was right is my assessment of my cousins' character, and also am right in my self-assessment of usually being able to handle problems and get away with stuff others don't, I screwed myself big time here. I could have handled the situation way better, and avoided all the chaos of the past 6 months. Though I have become much more entrepreneurial and wary of others, so maybe this turned into a good lesson.

Another example would be how much I speed. I've mentioned on here that I go pretty fast. The crazy thing is, I go a consistent 15 mph over, with a lot of 20 to even 30 mph over, and have never been involved in any sort of traffic mishap, and haven't been pulled over in over a year. I did however get drunk on power and back in HS and racked up 3 tickets in a row after a year of constantly pushing the envelope more and more to ridiculous levels and not getting caught. I did get 2 tickets reduced big time and could honestly get 2 more tickets right now without fear of losing my license, which is pretty wild, but I still had to pay a bunch of hard earned cash, not to mention how hard all my speeding is on my car. There are real consequences is thinking the rules don't apply to you when you take it too far.

Like Chase mentions, I have also overestimated my abilities when it comes to taking on a lot. Junior year, I was a varsity football player and rugby player, which entailed 30 hour weeks yearlong; I took on 5 AP classes at once, more than anyone else in my school with the exception of one guy whose entire life was academia; I worked 15-20 hours a week at a grocery store, and my primary focus became girls after I had my heart shattered. Ended up not doing anything special in either sport, got mostly Bs instead of As (though the AP gpa bonus kept my gpa well above a 4.0, which was very nice), and didn't make as much money as I should have or approach as many girls as I should have. And then senior year I took another 5 AP classes as well as starting up rowing, working 15-20 hours, and ramping up my social life. Clearly didn't learn anything.

Narcissism forces me to hone my abilities, such as driving or getting girls or handling a ton of pressure, which is probably why you see a lot of powerful, driven dudes who score pretty high in narcissism. Or maybe it's sometimes a byproduct of great success; I'm not going to pretend to be anything other than a case study. Being powerful doesn't guarantee being happy either.

Writing this does make me think I need to become less narcissistic. There have been a lot of times I have arrogantly pushed the envelope way too far. I have become less narcissistic as I have become more aware of it. I also understand how my childhood and parents fostered my narcissism.

This anecdote is mostly for my future reference but hopefully can also serve as a testament to the follies of being too much of a narcissist and also help you guys understand how we think.

A

 

[Dylweed]

Since it was already bumped last year figured I'd do it again Haha watched some YouTube vids on narcissism recently. Some by some doctors. It's all pretty negative towards narcissists but what they focus on is the negative impact they have on other people. They say narcissists have to bring people down to make themselves feel better. They're sense of self is so fragile so when something doesnt go their way they get nasty and judgmental and become hurtful to people.

Definitely doesn't sound like a good thing or like high self esteem. It's the exact opposite.

I've been strangely thinking about it a lot lately. I think it's the combination of having a high image of yourself but also feeling insecure at the same time. And if I were to be honest theres been times I've felt like this. Someone treats me a way I dont like and I instantly judge them and hold a grudge and start resenting them and view them as less than me and I try to bring them down so they feel as bad as me. I start finding joy in their pain. This only happens when I was already feeling slightly insecure to begin with. Whenever this happens I'm never even aware I'm doing it. I feel this rage about them. "How could they do this to ME?" There are other times where I'm not feeling insecure and the same thing wouldnt even bother me in the slightest, its crazy. Because ever since 2012 I've had this anxiety that comes and goes.

I'm guessing this happens to people a lot. Basically have a breif negative narcissistic moment. I started thinking of other times in my life that ive seen other people do this and theres a lot people and instances. Maybe I have this misunderstood and maybe I'm just paranoid now