Is there any truth to telegony?

[DarkKnight]

Guys so this is a pretty harsh and confronting subject, so I want everyone to stay rational about this.

Also for the hedonistic guys, I understand that this question is not appealing for you, but for those who care more about a legacy, it is.

For those who do not know: telegony is when a female had sex with a prior mate and her offspring with another mate is influenced by her having sex with a prior mate.

A lot of animal breeders believe this is to be true, but when I research the subject a lot of doctors seem to refute this idea. But generally when you search about his subject you get a loooot of shaming from leftists and I believe that is why facts are less discussed despite that this is a pretty serious subject if you ask me.

Also Chase has written before that he does not prefer virgins because if you give them mindblowing sex they will be curious about other men. Although I actually know quite some virgins who stay loyal, but perhaps I need to examine them on a longer period. Anyway the intuition behind this is that progency with a virgin, if telegony is true, produces uncontaminated children. Then again I am the kind of guy who likes genetically strong women (her own genes, not some other guy!) so I for my decision making, find these details important. We already know that more sexual partners lead to instability in the relationship. In the past kings were forbidden of marrying a woman who was not virgin, and despite that the ancients had a lot of bullshit beliefs, they sometimes struck more true than contemporary modernists. I mean ask any doctor about masturbating and he will tell you it is healthy despite it is weakening you. The ancients knew better though. Just an example.

So yeah I am pretty confused about the subject. @Chase if you would chime in because I am pretty sure you have knowledge about this since you tend to explore very minute details , so this has probably not evaded your radar.

 

[Conquistador]

This is something I actually did a literature review of once.

The answer is not really, but there are caveats*. We are used to thinking in terms of DNA, and genetically a child can’t have partible paternity.

On the epigenetic level, though, there have been some interesting published findings that would make some people uncomfortable. You can find them pretty easily on PubMed.

Bottom line: I would be far more concerned about previous men “contaminating” her (I use the word in a scientific sense, not in a judgmental one) in other ways. Psychologically, spiritually, and even culturally. Those things will affect your kids too.
For what it’s worth, I think it’s awesome when a girl ends up marrying her first boyfriend. It’s good for society and it definitely leads to better relationships, statistically speaking.
Unfortunately, Western society is currently obsessed with short- to medium-term individual pleasure. The pendulum seems to be starting to swing in the other direction, but it’s difficult for me to envision a cohesive society being fully rebuilt out of the chaos of an urban, industrialized, secular, politically disunified society.
But then again, most people who live in such “communities” can’t even imagine what a real community spirit looks like.

 

[DarkKnight]

Well, I have access to virgins, but I want the best genetic stock available.

On the epigenetic level, though, there have been some interesting published findings that would make some people uncomfortable. You can find them pretty easily on PubMed.

humor me, what should we be thinking about?

 

[Conquistador]

Well, I have access to virgins, but I want the best genetic stock available.

Well, I think you should keep a few things in mind:
-Genes aren’t everything due to epigenetics and soft transmission (e.g. cultural trauma). A plain, mentally healthy girl is often gonna have more reproductive success.
-A lot of guys, especially sexually successful ones, give undue weight to attractiveness when eyeballing a woman’s purported genetic fitness. Given the heritability of things like intelligence and personality traits…
-Are you familiar with the sexy son hypothesis? Now, I don’t know that it’s really valid in the 21st century, but historically, especially in high-competition environments, women usually reproduced and men less so. So a woman’s reproductive success was largely due to that of her sons. Basically, in such a situation, the six-foot, Leonardo-faced rower might be a better choice than the fey petite blonde. Btw I’d be fascinated to see what the average mom of an NFL or NBA player looks like.

humor me, what should we be thinking about?

Cultural and psychological factors. Trauma is important because that tends to get passed on to the kids.
Whether she’ll make a good mother is far more important than anything else. And while some retired naughty girls are good mothers (mostly Euro-type ones), virgins are perhaps, on average, better suited for that.
Also, age matters. Americans in particular have their kids at ages when the mothers are less healthy. A mother above 30 is, statistically, as big a risk factor for birth defects as being first cousins.
In short, think of the kids, not your own interests. Otherwise, what are you reproducing for?
Finally, individual cases might be different. You’ll notice I was constantly talking about statistical big pictures because that’s my one fetish, but in general, it’s fairly easy to beat the odds on things by making better choices than the general population.

 

[DarkKnight]

Basically, in such a situation, the six-foot, Leonardo-faced rower might be a better choice than the fey petite blonde. Btw I’d be fascinated to see what the average mom of an NFL or NBA player looks like.

Interesting.. so screening women on producing succesful sons

Finally, individual cases might be different. You’ll notice I was constantly talking about statistical big pictures because that’s my one fetish, but in general, it’s fairly easy to beat the odds on things by making better choices than the general population.

Statistics are good. Forget about the outliers I want to generalize right now.

So these epigenitics, are these permanent changes which can affect your lineage? Because that is what I do not want, hence the basic question of this post.

 

[Conquistador]

So these epigenitics, are these permanent changes which can affect your lineage? Because that is what I do not want, hence the basic question of this post.

Not sure how permanent per se but absolutely heritable. Not to mention that anything that affects the environment in her uterus during pregnancy is “heritable”.
Other guys’ DNA aren’t going to go directly into your kid, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be cause-and-effect chains from previous partners leading to your kid.

 

[DarkKnight]

but that doesn’t mean there won’t be cause-and-effect chains from previous partners leading to your kid.

Cause and effect chains? Can you extrapolate

 

[topcat]

Here’s a question that may go someway in proving or disproving genetic telegony:

if a white girl fucks a black guy, then has children with another white guy.. will those children when genetically tested show even a small portion of african dna?

or

if a man has a child by a woman who fucked another man before him, the children when tested by the “father” are proven to be his in a paternity test, will they also show genetic markers of the first man?

if the answer is no to either of these, where does it leave genetic telegony?

 

[DarkKnight]

if the answer is no to either of these, where does it leave genetic telegony?

I have no idea man. Hence why I post the thread. It is like statistics a bit that I believe in seeing things in greater numbers before I believe it (I have no big experience in childbirths), and sometimes nature can be very subtle with fathers even not knowing a kid is theirs until much later.

I come at this without real knowledge, but then you hear all this talk on manosphere places, or animal breeders and then you just wonder if it is true. It seems for instance that with studies with fruit flies there is some truth in this. But with mammals? I honestly don't know

But I am guessing you are leaning to that it is bullshit and disproven

I am really curious if Chase will chime in and what his views are

 

[topcat]

I have no idea man. Hence why I post the thread. It is like statistics a bit that I believe in seeing things in greater numbers before I believe it (I have no big experience in childbirths), and sometimes nature can be very subtle with fathers even not knowing a kid is theirs until much later.

I come at this without real knowledge, but then you hear all this talk on manosphere places, or animal breeders and then you just wonder if it is true. It seems for instance that with studies with fruit flies there is some truth in this. But with mammals? I honestly don't know

the thing regarding animal breeding is a little different however which is why it is important do your research, preferably from original materials.

A female dog (or any animal that can produce a litter i assume) can produce a litter for multiple sires at once. why? Because each puppy in a litter is produced from a single egg (if not identical twins) released over the course of oestrus, meaning they can be fertilized by multiple fathers over a bitch’s fertile period.

If a female german shepherd has a litter sired by a border collie and a doberman the puppies are either half doberman or half collie, they will not contain the dna of both the sires at once.

This doesn’t apply to humans.

In short genetic telegony is bullshit.

Waiting for an “Is the world flat?” post.

 

[DarkKnight]

A female dog (or any animal that can produce a litter i assume) can produce a litter for multiple sires at once. why? Because each puppy in a litter is produced from a single egg (if not identical twins) released over the course of oestrus, meaning they can be fertilized by multiple fathers over a bitch’s fertile period.

Hey man, didn't know you were this knowledgeable about this. But yeahh this explains the experiences of the animal breeders. Makes sense. Never knew a litter can be produced by multiple sires.

 

[topcat]

Hey man, didn't know you were this knowledgeable about this. But yeahh this explains the experiences of the animal breeders. Makes sense. Never knew a litter can be produced by multiple sires.

All good bro. We’re all searching for the truth.

 

[DarkKnight]

Waiting for an “Is the world flat?” post.

unnecessary neg bro, I believe the world not being flat is a bit more observable. but otherwise thanks for the contribution

 

[topcat]

unnecessary neg bro, I believe the world being flat is a bit more observable. but otherwise thanks for the contribution

oh no

 

[DarkKnight]

^right

@Surveyor still curious about the chains and causes part. This post is pretty productive so far

I am reaaally curious about what the big man (Chase) will write.

 

[Conquistador]

@Surveyor still curious about the chains and causes part. This post is pretty productive so far

Well there are several possible mechanisms.
The simplest and least controversial would be that a previous traumatic relationship affects a girl’s hormone balances which affects the fetus. This can also come from other sources of course.
Skipping over everything in between, the thesis that the chemicals (NOT genes) in one man’s semen can have a measurable indirect effect on later biochemical processes in a woman’s body is, while exact mechanisms can only be sketched out because biological systems are so complex (this complexity is in fact part of why these things can happen), supported by a number of studies.

Disclaimer: the following paragraph could be easily misunderstood by a casual reader.
By the way, while this part is unlikely to have any significant effect on the child, all of us have (almost always non-functional) foreign DNA in our bodies. There are a number of ways for this to happen. But there is evidence that fragments of sperm Y-DNA can sometimes end up floating around for years in nulliparous (never pregnant) women. The reason I talk about that is that the main source of Y-DNA contamination in women is from becoming pregnant with a male child. However, among others, an interesting study on Danish women found a significant increase in Y-DNA chimerism during the teenage years.

But honestly, random fragments of DNA floating around in the body shouldn’t be a big deal compared to pathogens actually getting inside your DNA. That’s right: 8% of the actual human genome is from ancient retroviruses spliced in. Many of those sequences do code and apparently they actually help protect us from present-day viruses.

But I would be far more worried about the non-biological effects of previous partners. Not to mention, if you believe in spiritual energy of any kind…

 

[Conquistador]

Never knew a litter can be produced by multiple sires.

Btw this can happen in humans although it’s very rare. Look up superfecundation and also superfetation.

 

[DarkKnight]

That was very thorough @Surveyor. Thank you. Very academic which was the kind of reply I was hoping for.

 

[Gladiator]

Interesting findings.. @Surveyor

Well there are several possible mechanisms.
The simplest and least controversial would be that a previous traumatic relationship affects a girl’s hormone balances which affects the fetus. This can also come from other sources of course.

I guess you meant trauma can be caused by other sources as well? If so, I'd think the outcome is still random.

In other words, if a girl's mental state is a major contributor to reproductive success and producing healthy offsprings, a girl who was a virgin having had traumatic past /emotional issues coming from different sources Viz, genetic or non-sexual or non-biological or not relating to relationships... doesn't guarantee to reproduce a healthy offspring either. Right?

So, if we were to normalize the mental state of a girl based on traumas from different sources, then the sum outcome of it would be more or less similar leading to no guarantee of reproductive success and can still be random. I'm happy to stand corrected.

But I would be far more worried about the non-biological effects of previous partners. Not to mention, if you believe in spiritual energy of any kind…

What do you say about successful celebrities born to parents who were traumatized or highly promiscuous?
Would you think it would work positively as well? So, if a girl who bore your offspring had a previous sexual partner with better spiritual energy going to contribute to your offspring's success?

 

[Conquistador]

What do you say about successful

Define “successful”

celebrities born to parents who were traumatized or highly promiscuous?

specific examples would facilitate discussion…
I know Elizabeth Taylor’s parents were swingers but I don’t think she was a particularly good example of a healthy and happy person lol

Would you think it would work positively as well? So, if a girl who bore your offspring had a previous sexual partner with better spiritual energy going to contribute to your offspring's success?

This is very iffy ground. First of all, how likely is it that the sum of her previous sexual partners were all on average having “better spiritual energy” than you? I would put it at well below 50%. Even if you are an AFC with shackled masculine energy.
Secondly, spiritual energy is widely (I think) held to be non-linear in most belief systems that specifically discuss it. In the specific case of sexual energy, the nature and context of the encounter absolutely matter. And they might a) not react well with yours b) affect the way your energy mixes with hers.
Also, that (and I say this in my intellectual persona) is a potentially quite dangerous line of reasoning. Spiritually aware men like Joseph Smith and his cohorts (not to mention modern cult leaders) have used this idea to justify them taking all the group’s women for themselves (sometimes abusively).