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Is there any truth to telegony?

Conquistador

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I’d also like to point out that virtually all the available evidence shows that humans have evolved with very low sperm competition for at least a million years if not longer, DESPITE primates like us and our distant ancestors all having unusually horny tendencies, small sociosexual impact of estrus, and a willingness to mate with strangers who are not necessarily the exact same species or subspecies.

That tends to imply monogamy, although it’s hard to figure that out with prehistoric hominins. Modern humans, however, do in fact display high overall tendencies toward lifelong monogamy—at least in their natural environment.
 

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
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Guys what do you mean with "spiritual energy"?

@Surveyor
 
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Gladiator

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Define “successful”
It's subjective but just to support the context of this discussion, anybody who you think would would be born to monogamous parents or anyone from the Google search link below who are as good as or better than people born to monogamous parents.
specific examples would facilitate discussion…
I know Elizabeth Taylor’s parents were swingers but I don’t think she was a particularly good example of a healthy and happy person lol
Here you go.. most of them are successful in my eyes:
his is very iffy ground. First of all, how likely is it that the sum of her previous sexual partners were all on average having “better spiritual energy” than you?
I didn't say "likely", I said "if". So neither of us know what's true.
I would put it at well below 50%.
On what basis?
Even if one is an AFC with shackled masculine energy.
Or could be the president of US or international soccer player
Secondly, spiritual energy is widely (I think) held to be non-linear in most belief systems that specifically discuss it.
I believe in spiritual energy too and I agree with what you're saying but I don't think it's just as black and white as it seems.
In the specific case of sexual energy, the nature and context of the encounter absolutely matter. And they might a) not react well with yours b) affect the way your energy mixes with hers.
Correct. With limited knowledge of time and space we have, we just go with our judgement to choose a mate. It means, not putting Dick in anything crazy.



Also, that (and I say this in my intellectual persona) is a potentially quite dangerous line of reasoning. Spiritually aware men like Joseph Smith and his cohorts (not to mention modern cult leaders) have used this idea to justify them taking all the group’s women for themselves (sometimes abusively).
Not sure where this sits in this whole discussion. I didn't say spiritually aware men are right

All I'm saying is, just because a girl has had many sexual partners doesn't necessarily make her a bad mother or vice-versa. A girl can have BPD or be narcissistic even being a virgin. I've met a handful of them.
 
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Conquistador

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Guys what do you mean with "spiritual energy"?

@Surveyor
Intentionally left undefined to accommodate various frameworks.
It's subjective but just to support the context of this discussion, anybody who you think would would be born to monogamous parents or anyone from the Google search link below who are as good as or better than people born to monogamous parents.

Here you go.. most of them are successful in my eyes:
Interesting metric of success to say the least…
I didn't say "likely", I said "if". So neither of us know what's true.
Well speak for yourself because educated guesses can be made. Sure hypothetically it’s possible but in such a clear-cut case of the “provider” being inferior to previous lovers that’s gonna affect the relationship.
The lower body count a girl, the easier it is to make her forget all previous lovers by being superior to them.
On what basis?
A number of reasons. Note that I said “the sum”
Or could be the president of US or international soccer player
I meant “if you are”
And those examples don’t necessarily imply quantity or quality of spiritual energy anyway. But even if they did, it wouldn’t matter.
 

Gladiator

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I replied to this thread cos I found your initial response and interpretation scientific and evidence based. Now it's turning out to be guesses, implications, hypothesis and personal view points and even sounding a bit triggered 😅

Well I'm not here to argue if I'm not getting any value out of it. Have a good day!
 

Chase

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There's some research on I think it was stickleback fish where the female's first mate determined the size of the offspring. e.g., female first mates with large male, but actually has offspring with a small male --> offspring are still large anyway, despite containing only the small male's genes, not the large male's. Female first mates with small male, but then reproduces with large male --> offspring are small, despite containing only the large male's genes.

The pathway for this is methylation, which changes the EXPRESSION of genes, but not the genes themselves.

Methylation is heritable, generally across multiple generations. Many things in an animal's environment can trigger it. There's a study on humans, for instance, that if a person become obese, it changes the expression of a number of genes (again through methylation), making it much easier for that person's children and grandchildren to then become obese as well.

There's another one finding that if EITHER parent is a heavy drinker at the time a child is conceived, that child is much more likely to become an alcoholic... again due to methylation of the genes. If both mother and father have been off the sauce for some period of time though (I think like 9 months or a year?) then the kid is much less likely to become alcoholic. I guess the parents' genes methylate back?

But basically with those stickleback fish, somehow that initial mating to the larger/smaller males is changing the expression of the FEMALE'S genes for body size... then when she mates with another male later on, the size genes the offspring receive from the mother are influenced one way or another by that earlier mating that caused methylation in her genes.

Why her first mate causes methylation of her body size genes but her subsequent mates don't reverse that I don't know.

There's also no way to know if anything similar happens in humans. It's possible first matings are causing methylation in human women's genes that subsequent matings don't change or reverse... but if so, there's no way to know currently what gene expressions are being affected, and how large or small the effect is.

If methylation from a woman's first / earlier pairings does occur, then I guess if you're a short guy who wants tall kids, knock up a chick who's first lover was a basketball player! Then you're all set. Kids with your genes... but they're giants :D

Anyway... I wouldn't worry about this too much personally.

If you're looking for long-term / baby mama material, knowing what her exes were like is pretty important IMO... though more so to know what kind of standards she holds for herself. e.g., if all her priors were trashy guys, that says some pretty bad stuff about her, even if she says she has "grown."

Call me elitist though...!

Chase
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

DarkKnight

Cro-Magnon Man
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Very valuable contribution Chase, and yes this helps a lot. I will do some more research on methylation
 

Ambiance

Modern Human
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Oh man, yet another variable my future perfectionist self will now probably want to control for when deciding to have kids. I'm already a tall guy, but I want all my sons to be even taller than I am. Then again, if methylation is pronounced in humans, height wouldn't be the only gene expression being altered... I don't like the idea of anyone beyond myself and my woman having any influence on my offspring. But I also don't like the idea of shacking up with a virgin... If only I had a twin brother! We could get each other's future baby mamas ready :D

Anyway, this methylation stuff is fascinating. Could potentially help explain some of my childhood peers ending up very tall despite parents of average height and seemingly no tall relatives. A lot of these guys came from money, so maybe there is a correlation between their mothers being higher value and thus having more access to taller men prior to marrying their husbands?

On a macro-level, I wonder if methylation has any role in contributing to average heights increasing. I doubt its effects would be anywhere near the benefits of the increased nutrition we've seen globally. But still, since taller men on average are slightly more reproductively successful than shorter men, you'd think the increased likelihood of a woman's first lover being tall would expound over time through methylation.
 

Chase

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There's actually very little variation between men in sex partner counts by height. Only very short men on average have fewer partners than everybody else. (study)

Short guys make up for it by being horny bastards. The shorter a man is, the more often he has sex. Guys under 5'3" have sex 14% more often than guys 5'9" and taller. (study)

If methylation counts for anything it should be all these horny short guys creating an epidemic of short men everywhere you look.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this influences pretty much nothing at all, personally.

I'd be a lot more worried about lifestyle changes causing methylation in her than a prior boyfriend or two doing that. e.g., if she's the type of gal who goes out boozing & cruising for cock every weekend (or swiping on apps four hours a week for that), that's probably caused a lot more methylation than the girl who had two boyfriends before you who were mostly pretty much like you anyways.

I'd also be more concerned about behavior changes as a result of lifestyle choices than I would be epigenetic changes as a result of lifestyle methylation. Don't turn a ho into a housewife, my brothers. Keep her for fun times only ;)

Chase
 

Conquistador

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Anyway, this methylation stuff is fascinating. Could potentially help explain some of my childhood peers ending up very tall despite parents of average height and seemingly no tall relatives. A lot of these guys came from money, so maybe there is a correlation between their mothers being higher value and thus having more access to taller men prior to marrying their husbands?

On a macro-level, I wonder if methylation has any role in contributing to average heights increasing.
It has very little to do with genes and a lot to do with dairy consumption. Read the literature. Or just look at first vs second generation Asian Americans.
 
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