Is there such a thing as "attractive behaviours" or is attractiveness 100% down to fundamentals?

raiden

Space Monkey
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Background:
I'm an incel and I'm trying to work my way out of it. I've done the usual YouTube crap of getting in shape, dressing well, trying to be successful, doing social things that don't relate to dating and recently also added speech therapy. I'm here because, as we all know, YouTube crap doesn't work! You guys on here know what does. I have been wanting to have a girlfriend since 2017. I've been on maybe 50 dates from online dating systems and I've done 20-40 approaches in real life (no dates, and only fake phone numbers). I gave up approaching in 2019 and I want to get back to it ASAP. 40-45 of those dates went badly. This year I came back and started working with a coach (not GC affiliated) and the suggestion was that I should avoid doing approaches at first because I am kind of traumatized by my history with women. He preferred me to set up an online dating profile, get some dates, have them go well and then with my newfound optimism go out and do approaching.

Anyway, I am stuck in the date phase. Whatever kind of date I have, it almost always does not go well. The women are not uncomfortable with me because they stay 2-3 hours sometimes. They seem to be reasonably happy and comfortable and happy to tell me about themselves. They are usually happy with incidental touch but no more. Then we go home and I hear later by text that the woman didn't see things going forward with us or didn't feel a connection or something to that effect. I am trying to troubleshoot my dates to see how things could go better. I want to know basically whether it is 1) something I am saying, 2) something I am doing or not doing (behavior) or, 3) my fundamentals are just garbage.

I have a friend who gets maybe 1 good date out of 3 - which is an incredible number - and I ask him how he does it and he has no answer. He doesn't seem to do physical escalation or invite the women home or anything and all he can say is "be funny and be yourself". So he doesn't seem to be following the GC blueprint but it's working for him. The way I see it, 1) and 2) above may not be important at all because on GC we always seem to be advised to have a date where the guy talks minimally and just gets the woman to talk about herself. So the attention and focus is on the woman and so what the guy says and does is almost irrelevant... right? But that leaves 3) which is a really sad reality that a guy's fundamentals, which he is stuck with, are the only thing that determine his success. I see that my question is more of a discussion but can any of you tell me how i can figure out whether it is 1 or 2 or 3 or something else that needs work?
 

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
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Well, yeah, the question in the title is much more philosophical than what you really need right now.

Long explanation short, you basically want a date where the girl is talking 80% of the time or more but that doesn’t mean you are not communicating.
All while she is talking, you are listening to her and reacting and the ways you react communicate whether you are a good match with her or not.

As an inexperienced man, you are more prone of fucking it up by over communicating.
That doesn’t mean you can’t be talkative and have success. You just need to know very well what you are doing.

Even if you don’t talk, your body language and reactions are saying things.
So what you do + what you say + your fundamentals are always working in tandem.

Now, being more specific to your issue.

If you have been to 50 dates and none of them has worked, there has to be something pretty obvious that is stopping you.
This can’t be something you say from time to time… it is always there, always present… it should be more or less obvious.

Any idea what can be?

Is there something off with your looks that is very obvious?
Do you stutter or have a mole?
Are you in bad shape?

Is there something that people often tell you about your personality that can be seen negative in some scenarios?
Like… you are always argumentative… you like to always be right…. or you “just don’t get it”.
 

Regal Tiger

Cro-Magnon Man
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I'm assuming that it has to do with touch or otherwise sexualizing the interaction. Whether that be through vibe, touch, words or whatever

Basically, the A(rousal) in SAC


So my follow up question would be what does a typical date look like for you?
 

raiden

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Messages
14
Well, yeah, the question in the title is much more philosophical than what you really need right now.

Long explanation short, you basically want a date where the girl is talking 80% of the time or more but that doesn’t mean you are not communicating.
All while she is talking, you are listening to her and reacting and the ways you react communicate whether you are a good match with her or not.

As an inexperienced man, you are more prone of fucking it up by over communicating.
That doesn’t mean you can’t be talkative and have success. You just need to know very well what you are doing.

Even if you don’t talk, your body language and reactions are saying things.
So what you do + what you say + your fundamentals are always working in tandem.

Now, being more specific to your issue.

If you have been to 50 dates and none of them has worked, there has to be something pretty obvious that is stopping you.
This can’t be something you say from time to time… it is always there, always present… it should be more or less obvious.

Any idea what can be?

Is there something off with your looks that is very obvious?
Do you stutter or have a mole?
Are you in bad shape?

Is there something that people often tell you about your personality that can be seen negative in some scenarios?
Like… you are always argumentative… you like to always be right…. or you “just don’t get it”.

I don't stutter or have a mole. I can be sure of that because my speech therapist was amazed at my improvement and said that I probably don't need any speech therapy anymore. I have been complimented on my skin. I don't think that I am in bad shape because I am interested and enthusiastic about bodybuilding training, and have been for years now. All medical checks that I have had say that I am in good health regarding bodyfat, blood pressure, diabetes score, resting heart rate etc. etc.

I am of course miserable about being an incel and have a low opinion of myself. I am generally negative but in the past 1-1.5 months I made a commitment to never show it in person when I am with women. So now I find myself always finding the positive side to everything and even correcting women when they say something negative. My friend tells me that I could be a little more laid back, unstructured and fun.

The main weakness that I have is that my natural fundamentals are very poor. I am an ethnic minority and my height is below average. I know that when women are uncomfortable, they'll try to get out of the situation as soon as possible while maintaining politeness, social decorum etc. But that isn't happening with me; the women are happy to talk to me or have a long ass date 2-3 hours long.

I'm assuming that it has to do with touch or otherwise sexualizing the interaction. Whether that be through vibe, touch, words or whatever

Basically, the A(rousal) in SAC


So my follow up question would be what does a typical date look like for you?
Typical date is to meet at a food or drinks venue. Talk about whatever. Bounce to another food or drinks venue that's a bit quieter or dark or romantic. If the weather is good this could involve somewhere outdoors instead e.g. sit in a nearby park. Then if I think that the date is going well and we both feel comfortable, I will at the second venue try to escalate to kissing or suggest bouncing home. That gets a no. Date continues with more talking about whatever and then we go home (separately).
 

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
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I am generally negative but in the past 1-1.5 months I made a commitment to never show it in person when I am with women.
Ok, so for starters you shouldn’t be fixating on the 50 failed dates of the past and instead let’s take it from the dates you have been having in the last month after you corrected your speech and became more positive.
You already know what was wrong with the dates past.

My friend tells me that I could be a little more laid back, unstructured and fun.
What does this mean?
Please expand.

Also, what ethnic minority? Are you Indian, middle eastern, African…?
Where are you located?
Many of these issues can come from a traditional upbringing that is uncalibrated to your current country paradigms.

Also, you didn’t mention hygiene. How are you doing with that?
Do you have a non-conforming belief related to hygiene like not using deodorant or going everywhere barefoot?

The women are happy to talk to me or have a long ass date 2-3 hours long.
Are you physically escalating during this time?
What things do you talk about?

How are women feeling during these long talks?
Are they excited? Horny? Intrigued? Or just mildly entertained?

Typical date is to meet at a food or drinks venue. Talk about whatever. Bounce to another food or drinks venue that's a bit quieter or dark or romantic. If the weather is good this could involve somewhere outdoors instead e.g. sit in a nearby park. Then if I think that the date is going well and we both feel comfortable, I will at the second venue try to escalate to kissing or suggest bouncing home. That gets a no. Date continues with more talking about whatever and then we go home (separately).

What specific rejections you get at the end of the date and what messages you get after
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
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Nov 11, 2019
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South Florida
Background:
I'm an incel and I'm trying to work my way out of it. I've done the usual YouTube crap of getting in shape, dressing well, trying to be successful, doing social things that don't relate to dating and recently also added speech therapy. I'm here because, as we all know, YouTube crap doesn't work! You guys on here know what does. I have been wanting to have a girlfriend since 2017. I've been on maybe 50 dates from online dating systems and I've done 20-40 approaches in real life (no dates, and only fake phone numbers). I gave up approaching in 2019 and I want to get back to it ASAP. 40-45 of those dates went badly. This year I came back and started working with a coach (not GC affiliated) and the suggestion was that I should avoid doing approaches at first because I am kind of traumatized by my history with women. He preferred me to set up an online dating profile, get some dates, have them go well and then with my newfound optimism go out and do approaching.

Anyway, I am stuck in the date phase. Whatever kind of date I have, it almost always does not go well. The women are not uncomfortable with me because they stay 2-3 hours sometimes. They seem to be reasonably happy and comfortable and happy to tell me about themselves. They are usually happy with incidental touch but no more. Then we go home and I hear later by text that the woman didn't see things going forward with us or didn't feel a connection or something to that effect. I am trying to troubleshoot my dates to see how things could go better. I want to know basically whether it is 1) something I am saying, 2) something I am doing or not doing (behavior) or, 3) my fundamentals are just garbage.

I have a friend who gets maybe 1 good date out of 3 - which is an incredible number - and I ask him how he does it and he has no answer. He doesn't seem to do physical escalation or invite the women home or anything and all he can say is "be funny and be yourself". So he doesn't seem to be following the GC blueprint but it's working for him. The way I see it, 1) and 2) above may not be important at all because on GC we always seem to be advised to have a date where the guy talks minimally and just gets the woman to talk about herself. So the attention and focus is on the woman and so what the guy says and does is almost irrelevant... right? But that leaves 3) which is a really sad reality that a guy's fundamentals, which he is stuck with, are the only thing that determine his success. I see that my question is more of a discussion but can any of you tell me how i can figure out whether it is 1 or 2 or 3 or something else that needs work?
listen your problem is you are getting dates and you are losing the girls in the "date/meet up face" i would advice to read and field test couple of my strategies, make sure you field test exactly as i laid them out.... (in the link to the video go to the description for instructions and links to deeps explanations and lay reports)
 

raiden

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Ok, so for starters you shouldn’t be fixating on the 50 failed dates of the past and instead let’s take it from the dates you have been having in the last month after you corrected your speech and became more positive.
You already know what was wrong with the dates past.
I'll not focus on the past 45 or so dates but just to be clear, we don't know what was wrong with them. We can not declare that it was my voice because I have now improved my voice and date still go badly.
What does this mean?
Please expand.
I have spent lots of time with my friend and had a few vacations with him. (This is the same guy with the "be myself" way of having dates go well). He eats when he feels like it while I eat on schedule and make sure to get my vegetables in. That's for health and bodybuilding. He drinks when he feels like it, even at night. I don't drink any alcohol because of the health implications and the negative effects to sleep from night time drinking. I do my physical training on a schedule whereas he trains when he feels like it. He of course has a much easier life without my pressures or bills to pay etc. but you see how we have totally different approaches to life.

Also, what ethnic minority? Are you Indian, middle eastern, African…?
Where are you located?
Many of these issues can come from a traditional upbringing that is uncalibrated to your current country paradigms.
I am south Asian. Let's say for all intents and purposes that I'm Indian. I'm in the United Kingdom. Note that I'm not foreign. I was born here and grew up here. If you spoke to me on the telephone, you'd hear a standard possibly middle class sounding British accent. If you ask me, I call myself British. But I know that many people do think that ethnicity matters. My upbringing wasn't perfect. I lacked a father figure and I was bullied as a teenager. Anyway, it's in the past and maybe the reason why these issues are here isn't even important.

Also, you didn’t mention hygiene. How are you doing with that?
Do you have a non-conforming belief related to hygiene like not using deodorant or going everywhere barefoot?
I follow standard hygiene protocols. I shower regularly and most of these dates I came in having showered just a few hours before. I use either a roll on or spray on deodorant, depending on how I feel. I of course don't do any of this barefoot stuff; I wear socks and boots. A guy with low height should never go barefoot; he needs every boost he can get! I brush and floss my teeth 2 or 3 times per day and my dentist is always pleased with how I am cleaning them. I have never even had a cavity. If I'm in doubt my breath, I'll swish some mouthwash. Maybe there's some hygiene on my private parts that needs improving but that's irrelevant at the moment. Also, in case it makes a difference, I go clean shaven nowadays. I prefer it to having a beard and it was recommended for me by my coach too.

Are you physically escalating during this time?
What things do you talk about?
We talk about all the kinds of stuff that women talk about. How long has she been in this country and why did she move here? What kind of future would she like to have? What are our views on love? What are her interests? What would she do if money weren't an issue? Talk about a good vacation in the past.

How are women feeling during these long talks?
Are they excited? Horny? Intrigued? Or just mildly entertained?
I can't tell but my guess would be that they are either just mildly entertained or perhaps excited. I wouldn't say that they are horny or intrigued. I am only escalating as much as I can. If a woman is sitting opposite me, I can barely escalate. If she is at right angles to me but still a bit far away, I can only use the PUA style stuff that I know (psosibly outdated) like asking to see her jewelry and stuff. Maybe we feel each other's muscles and stuff too. If she sits close to me then I can start more romantic touch but I've noticed that most women won't be close enough for this stuff. In fact, earlier this year I had a date where the touch escalation went well and we kissed. Same outcome in the end though. I was only able to do that because when we sat down on a bench, she sat down close enough. Most of the time, women will leave a gap when sitting on a bench and I know (or correct me if this is wrong) that the message there is that she is not comfortable enough for me to try any romantic touch, but continue with the platonic touches such as arm touches.
What specific rejections you get at the end of the date and what messages you get after
The end of the date is just a standard "goodbye" or "see you later". Sometimes it's a "nice meeting you" which I know is bad. Then the text rejection that I get is some varation or combination of the following.
-I had a great time but I don't think that we're compatible.
-I had a good time but I don't think that it would work out between us.
-You're a good guy and I don't to waste your time so I should tell you that I don't think that I felt a connection.

I make sure to send a few follow up messages after the date and then, if one of the above messages doesn't come up, I ask to set up a second date. Then the rejection message comes and I can properly declare the lead dead.

listen your problem is you are getting dates and you are losing the girls in the "date/meet up face" i would advice to read and field test couple of my strategies, make sure you field test exactly as i laid them out.... (in the link to the video go to the description for instructions and links to deeps explanations and lay reports)

Wow. Thank you. I have a session with my coach coming up in the next week. So as not to confuse myself, I'll have the lesson, wait 24 hours and then start looking at this. If you have an exact step by step plan, I have to try it. I figure that I can't do much worse than I am already doing.
 

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
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Alright, seems like you got your hygiene and the basic fundamentals on handle. At least to a decent level.


However the following part strike me a little odd:
I eat on schedule and make sure to get my vegetables in. That's for health and bodybuilding. He drinks when he feels like it, even at night. I don't drink any alcohol because of the health implications and the negative effects to sleep from night time drinking. I do my physical training on a schedule whereas he trains when he feels like it.

Seems like you may have autistic tendencies to begin with.
Not a dealbreaker but it could explain your challenge to connect with women.

We talk about all the kinds of stuff that women talk about. How long has she been in this country and why did she move here? What kind of future would she like to have? What are our views on love? What are her interests? What would she do if money weren't an issue? Talk about a good vacation in the past.

This is the main problem I can see in your post.

Seems like you’re not leading these conversations.
You are letting girls talk about whatever they are comfortable with and what ends up happening is they have such a great and comfortable time with you that you end up in the friendzone.

Your interactions are not particularly manly nor remarkable so they slot you as just another nice guy.

It is not your fundamentals, it’s your game.

You should be leading these interactions into sexy, exciting, fun topics all the while escalating touch.

I can't tell but my guess would be that they are either just mildly entertained or perhaps excited. I wouldn't say that they are horny or intrigued. I am only escalating as much as I can. If a woman is sitting opposite me, I can barely escalate.

If a woman is sitting opposite you either move your chair or ask to be seated elsewhere.
Opposite sides is death of seduction, you should never be accepting nor proposing locations that prevent you from touching.

Most of the time, women will leave a gap when sitting on a bench and I know (or correct me if this is wrong) that the message there is that she is not comfortable enough for me to try any romantic touch, but continue with the platonic touches such as arm touches.

It’s your job to close that gap progressively and women follow your lead.
If you are comfortable, she is more likely to be comfortable.

The end of the date is just a standard "goodbye" or "see you later". Sometimes it's a "nice meeting you" which I know is bad. Then the text rejection that I get is some varation or combination of the following.
-I had a great time but I don't think that we're compatible.
-I had a good time but I don't think that it would work out between us.
-You're a good guy and I don't to waste your time so I should tell you that I don't think that I felt a connection.

I make sure to send a few follow up messages after the date and then, if one of the above messages doesn't come up, I ask to set up a second date. Then the rejection message comes and I can properly declare the lead dead.

Yeah, by the end of the date, the damage is done.

Nothing to do there.

It seems to me that you’re failing your dates because they are unremarkable and because you respect women too much to make bold moves.

Perhaps this is something deeper where you think you should not hurt women or always be respectful to them which is well-meaning but ineffective.
For succesful dates, you should be sparking excitement, mystery and challenge.
You need to move forward.

In other words, you are all comfort and almost no attraction, that’s why you struggle with compliance.
 

raiden

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Alright, seems like you got your hygiene and the basic fundamentals on handle. At least to a decent level.


However the following part strike me a little odd:


Seems like you may have autistic tendencies to begin with.
Not a dealbreaker but it could explain your challenge to connect with women.
Yes for sure. But I've used online tests and they all come back as having autistic tendencies but not being on the spectrum. I even asked my therapist back when I was in therapy and they didn't think that I was on the spectrum. So we can proceed as if I'm not on the spectrum. And I definitely don't want to blame my failures on something like this when people with full blown autism or OCD can and do get good results with women.
This is the main problem I can see in your post.

Seems like you’re not leading these conversations.
You are letting girls talk about whatever they are comfortable with and what ends up happening is they have such a great and comfortable time with you that you end up in the friendzone.

Your interactions are not particularly manly nor remarkable so they slot you as just another nice guy.

It is not your fundamentals, it’s your game.

You should be leading these interactions into sexy, exciting, fun topics all the while escalating touch.



If a woman is sitting opposite you either move your chair or ask to be seated elsewhere.
Opposite sides is death of seduction, you should never be accepting nor proposing locations that prevent you from touching.



It’s your job to close that gap progressively and women follow your lead.
If you are comfortable, she is more likely to be comfortable.
The only directing I do is to stay off controversial or negative topics or topics where we disagree. E.g. if a woman discussed politics, I'd change the subject because there's no romance there. A woman once told me that she said that women should get married at age mid 30s. I disagreed with this but I thought that I did the right thing by accepting it and changing the subject (I am here to get laid not to change somebody's world view, even if the world view is disagreeable). Besides that I don't lead the conversation because I don't know, or I can't tell, what the good topics are. What are they? Or, more specifically, what are some conversational questions that typify them? A few years ago I also read the paper where they came up with the "36 questions to fall in love" and used some of those. That gave the same result; the woman enjoyed the conversation and didn't want to see me again.

So I shouldn't use a date venue where we are sitting opposite each other. But in other date venues, the women are still not going to position themselves that close to me. If we're sitting at right angles with a square table, the woman wouldn't position herself that close. Same if we are sitting next to each other on a bench. If I want to move closer, I'd have to either make the high effort (violation of law of least effort??) move to move my chair, which I have seen woman react to with visible discomfort, or ask her to move closer, to which she can say no and give me negative compliance to derail the date. So what's the solution? It seems to me like the woman calls the shots on the proximity here.
Yeah, by the end of the date, the damage is done.

Nothing to do there.

It seems to me that you’re failing your dates because they are unremarkable and because you respect women too much to make bold moves.

Perhaps this is something deeper where you think you should not hurt women or always be respectful to them which is well-meaning but ineffective.
For succesful dates, you should be sparking excitement, mystery and challenge.
You need to move forward.

In other words, you are all comfort and almost no attraction, that’s why you struggle with compliance.
I'm definitely almost no attraction. But what of these bold moves can I make? I can invite home or attempt/ask to kiss. I get a no and then that's that. If I'm feeling like taking a risk, I can try the persistence and other tricks to try to turn those into a yes but that has never worked for me when requesting an escalation like this. Besides the gamey stuff of feeling muscles, feeling jewelry, feeling hair etc. what is there? And what changes if the woman does not like public displays of affection? Or should I assume that public displays of affection are always ok for now, until I get some better experience?

The deeper thing is probably that I firstly want this a lot and secondly, I've had bad experiences such as the following
-Kicked out of a girl's bedroom after being invited in and suggested to sleep over, because of screwed up escalation.
-Yelled at by a girl after I tried to kiss her goodbye. This was after a good date where we agreed to hang out the next day. She reneged on the date and blocked my phone number later, of course.
-Went on a date at a bar on couch style seating. Tried to move myself a bit closer and she moved away. This happened more than once and later on, as we left, I noticed how far we had moved along the couch, and I felt bad for making her feel too uncomfortable.

But let's not worry about these things; let me start by doing the right things and then I can worry about thinking and feeling and believing the right things.
 
Last edited:

ulrich

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Read these and let me know if you identify
 

raiden

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Read these and let me know if you identify

The first one about challenging doesn't say much to me. I have actually already purchased Chase's book so I can go ahead and read the full chapter. But I know, and almost everybody knows in 2022, not to do stuff like the first two. The third one I do but if I don't then almost nothing will happen. If the woman gives very little effort and I give even less, there is no date. I know that commonalities are useless and I know that real 'relatability' comes from the woman telling the man about herself. (Please correct me if I get anything wrong). Chase even said in one of his articles that the best way to show yourself to be impressive is to be humble. I know all too well that making a big deal about positive finances or education is a bad idea; I knew this years ago. Statistically, I must be more highly educated and highly paid than the average person but I know not to tell a woman any of this unless she asks and, even so, to say it quickly as if it's nothing and then move on. This relates to my point in the opening post about why I am done with YouTube nonsense. YouTube would have you believe that having an impressive bank balance would get you laid, and that's why I'm here not on YouTube.
  • Buying a woman drinks, food, flowers, or gifts when just meeting her for the first time, or too frequently in a relationship (what has she done to earn these gifts?).

  • Qualifying himself; e.g., she asks him if he’s a good cook, and he says, “Oh yes, of course! I can cook this and that and the other thing, and I’m really good at… blah blah.” This is a case of the man working too hard to build commonalities and relatability.

  • Offering more compliance than she is giving him back / putting in more work and effort than she is.


The second article about nice guys finishing last is a good one and I'd love to do some of these things: be an asshole, challenge her. I do not see any good examples of asshole behaviour, however. I saw Hector's approach on MGE and it seems just like a standard interaction that I have. But I'm not Hector and can't get even 1% of the lays or dates that he does, so I must be mistaken. And Chase's scripts on here seem very nice as well; his seem to have a more playful or comedic tone. What kind of asshole things do I need to do? Am I being typecast as a nice guy and so I have to bring out even more asshole behaviour than Chase and Hector's examples? I can think of doing these things:
-choose one thing about her to openly and seriously disapprove of e.g. censure a woman who isn't fully disciplined with her fitness plan or who can't control her YouTube/Netflix addiction. That wouldn't be a tease but a proper disapproval.
-I shut up and let a silence come up that I hope for her to fill with her own interesting conversation. And if she doesn't I can censure her for it too.
-Bored look, sceptical look or if these are too advanced for me I just try to act as bored as possible for a few minutes.
-False time constraint on date. "I might have to get going soon." This statement even have a topper e.g. "I might get going early if we don't have so much fun tonight."

Are any of those going to be useful to me or am I way off the mark? I know that classical PUA teaches you to reward good behaviour and not to reward bad behaviour, where good is behaviour that pushes the courtship forward and bad is behaviour that stifles it. So when I get a "no" response to kissing or touching or inviting back, should I have been reacting with an asshole move rather than brushing it under the carpet and continuing the interaction as if I had not asked and been turned down?
 

FunGuy

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There could be a lot reasons why you aren't getting follow up dates but since we aren't there we can't diagnose it for you. You will have to use process of elimination to figure out why you aren't getting any follow up dates.

The thing that popped out to me was that you said your dates are 2-3 hours long which is way too long unless you are going to 2 to 3 different places. If the girls are willing to interact with you for that long then its probably not a conversational issue but maybe a problem with the vibe being too friendly. Back in the day they used to call it setting the man to woman energy which is something you have to practice. Read this https://www.girlschase.com/content/indirect-game-pt-3-escalating-vibe

There is also the chance that you might unintentionally be getting into conversational topics that aren't ideal for early dates. Women are usually in super judgmental mode early on so you have to be careful with certain things you talk about. Can you provide details about what you usually talk about on dates and the type of questions that the girls ask you?
 

ulrich

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Have you ever invited a woman to your apartment just for the sake of seeing what happens?
 
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