Is this the end?

[Norton]

Last night, I was on the car with this girl trying to position myself as her boyfriend so I told her she can talk to me about anything or approach me if she has any problems. She went silent throughout the whole trip, looking away from me at the other side of the window for a good moment. A while later, she turned towards me and said, "You know, your words is having an emotional impact on me. I cant stop thinking of you and I feel I am losing control - and I dont like that". Sensing she is distancing away from me, I tried to salvage the situation by "self-demoting" myself to casual lover status for fear of losing everything so I replied back, "you are thinking too much. Why makes things so complicated, just let nature takes its own course.."
As we arrived at my place, tears flowed down from her cheek. She wanted to go home, all by herself using public transport in the middle of the night. She started to open my car door but I stopped her and said, "ok, Ill send you home ok - thats the least i can do." I froze momentarily, looking down, absorbing the shock but preparing to relegate myself to accept the inevitable fate that awaits me. She said, "Ok - I stay with you tonight"

Back at my house, everything seems back to normal and rosy. I joked around with her, we had sex, I made her come once last night, and after that we cuddled up together, kissing and hugging. But again, in the process of wanting to make her mine, I did some boyfriend stuffs like looking into her eyes around the ejaculation point and said "I love you baby". She hit me playfully on the arm, and said how much she "hated" me. I asked her not to turn crazy again like just now and if she can stay over at my place again next week - she agreed. That night, I sensed it could be the last time I am going to spend the night with her, or not? I dont know for sure.

Throughout the night, she kept looking at my face and stroking my hair all the time. I felt something amiss. Could she be trying to memorise this moment for the last time? I was leaning towards that possibility.

Next morning came and we had sex again. Again, I tried my best to make her fall for me by doing all that bf stuffs. She flipped over, sobbed again. Out of a sudden, she started to dress up without eating breakfast or showering, then storm out of my place! I chased after her. I met her downstairs at the carpark area, she was walking very briskly. I ran up towards her and told her to calm down! Let me take her home at least! But she insisted on taking the public transport home and started walking quickly again. From behind, I asked if this is going to be the last time Im meeting her? To which she replied ,"maybe no".

She never looked back at me as I see her figure getting more and more distant from me.

Can someone comment what is she thinking? I think she dont want a committed relationship as she said she doesnt want to get hurt again (she believes we are impossible together because she is 5 years older than me). I think if I want to have sex with her again, the best case scenario will be to position myself as a fuck buddy rather than a bf, OR give her assurance that I will not break her heart - what should I do next?

Please advise, thank you.

P.S. I have slept with her 3 times.

 

[Norton]

For the record, I want to say all the advise from girls chase is right on the spot. Even her subsequent reaction is very close to what is written here. Amazing you guys!

 

[JDB_40k]

Chase mentioned something like this in his past. There was a girl that he wanted to be a BF with in the worst way, but she straight told him she didn't view him that way. I think he said he saw her for a few more months though.

Thing is you should just talk to your girl about it. Ask her to be completely honest with you. Accept what she says. It may suck if she doesn't want to see you as a BF, but enjoy the time with her that you have.

 

[Drck]

My impression is, that anytime you tried to position yourself as her BF she pulled away. Most likely she like(d) the current status of not having serious relationship with you. At first you presented as a lover, and now you changed your frame rather rapidly by pushing too much to be her BF. It might be fine with other girls, but it looks like it is too much for her, most likely because of her previous relationship.

Also, she naturally wants to be in "control" of the relationship, at least up to some point. If the guy is too much independent (e.g. closer to being Alpha) she knows he is not a good BF material for her because she would always be the one who has lower value, she would be the one who is chasing, thus the one who might get hurt at the end. For longer term she would prefer a guy who has more Beta characteristics than Alpha. She is not stupid, she knows Alpha can dump her anytime he wants and find another girl, and she would be hurt. She knows that Beta can't do that so easily, thus she would feel more empowered by having Beta as her BF...

Also, she probably has co-dependency issues, she knows that you are too leading and too dominant, and then if she becomes your GF she would have hard time to be in control. She would have to let go of a lot of her freedom so she can be with you.

It is always better when you setup your frame BEFORE you start meeting the girl and then don't change it, because once you start changing it there is always some friction. I would slow down with that BF material so she gets used to it, it might be too much for her. She is fighting likeness for you with giving up her freedom and control...

 

[Norton]

Personal disclaimer: Im going admit that I am no alpha male. My "pick up" skills is only at the beginners level at best.

Thank you for both your responses.

Hi JDB_40K,
Rather than discussing the issue with her, would it be better to have a plan in mind and lead her to it. I am afraid I am giving her the power of choice to reject me, whereas if I approach with a set frame in mind, where I want our relationship to be - then she just need to agree with it if it is something that might work.

Hi Drck,
Im not emitting a strong alpha signal to her. The vibe Im giving her is one who is ready to take things more serious with her, the problem is whether she is willing to overcome the fear barrier and accept me. I think I present to her as a stable person. If I said, I dont sleep with other woman but her, she will believe.
At the moment, her emotion is still fresh and hot so Im debating whether I should pull back for a couple of days or week even and let her calm down or strike now while the iron is hot.
My sole objective is not to lose her. Im happy to be a casual lover who sees her once every 10 days rather than nothing or push on and convince her to become my gf.


Im putting out 3 possible scenarios, taking the sms approach:

Option 1) Discuss and ask her what she wants
"I know you are afraid to enter into a relationship because you are scared of getting hurt again. But I dont want you to disappear completely out of my life. Do you want me to see you less often, and we take this slower or do you want to keep this casual with no emotional attachment?"

Option 2) Offer to be a casual lover - directing her
"I will not call you baby or darling or dear anymore ok? I can live being single and I think you want that too. But I dont want to see you out of my life completely, we can at least be friends and see each other once every 2 weeks? What do you think?"

Option 3) Assuring her being with me is the correct choice - directing her
"Do you feel happy being with me? I feel happy being with you. If we are happy together, what's the problem? 2 people who are love with each other is one of the most beautiful things in life. You are afraid that you will fall out of love again, but you dont know for sure. Like you, Ive been out of love before maybe more times than you. But I pick myself up and keep trying because being in love again is a risk worth taking."

 

[JDB_40k]

It's possible. I'm not relationship expert by any means. I've never been in one. But as far as approach one, you are saying too much. Keep it simple. Something like "How do you feel about us?" (gauge her reaction) "Ok, where do you see us going?"

Don't project onto her. Be very neutral and work within her comfort level. Saying she has been hurt in the past is irrelevant to the two of you. Don't associate yourself with her past relationships.

Option 2 starts off too weak, you are essentially asking her to take control of the relationship and dictate how you act.

Option 3 -- I don't really know, all of them sound like you are very emotionally invested - Which I understand, it happens. Like I said, I'm not an expert, but I don't think you, as the guy, can direct a relationship. (If I'm wrong someone correct me)

Here is what I would recommend. Next time you see her, don't pressure her to be in a relationship. Ask her in a very neutral and understanding way what her past relationships have been like. Listen very carefully, sympathize and relate to her experience. When I say that I mean that you are listening, not coming off like "oh baby that's ok you are a great girl and those guys don't know what they are missing, I'm nothing like that." More like "I understand, that is unfortunate, people do shitty things to each other."

What I'm saying is, when you see her, talk to her, understand her and relate to her. If she comes around, GREAT!

I sympathize with you dude. Different situation but I understand the emotion. There was a girl I went out with back in April when I first started out. First date was perfect, Second was better and I tried to move things forward but didn't realize she saw me as a BF candidate. I moved too fast and things blew up hard. I regret it to this day, I wish beyond anything there were something I could say to convince her to take one chance on me that I've figured things out. To this day I'm still trying to figure out something (not that I've stopped seeing other girls. I've met other great girls since, but she sticks with me for some reason)

 

[Drck]

In my opinion, you are pushing too much for the relationship, you may look too needy and she is not ready for it. The more you push the further she will run.

You are too serious, you want resolutions and answers (options 1,2 and 3) right away. It seems to me that in your original entry you were kind of pushy, then she went silent throughout the whole trip, looking away from you. Hint: She had to think about it for long time or she didn't like it. If she thought it is good she would get excited about it, instead she wanted to take public transport to leave.

You: Again, I tried my best to make her fall for me by doing all that bf stuffs. She flipped over, sobbed again. Out of a sudden, she started to dress up without eating breakfast or showering, then storm out of my place!
>>>> Same story. She did not like it, if she did she wouldn't leave. You can't "make" her to fall for you either, it is impossible.

You: I am afraid I am giving her the power of choice to reject me
>>>> She already has that power, she doesn't need your permission to reject you. You are too controlling

You: whereas if I approach with a set frame in mind, where I WANT our relationship to be - then she just NEED to agree with it if it is something that might work
>>>> Well, for healthy relationship, there always have to be two people, it is not exactly about what YOU WANT. You might WANT whaterver you WANT, regardless of what SHE WANTS, and she doesn't NEED to agree with you. It just sounds kind of of pushy. I'm not saying that it wouldn't work on other girls, but it doesn't look like it is working for her.
>>>> In my opinion, you cannot really say I WANT this relationship be this way and SHE NEEDS to agree with it. It is rather a strong frame for BF, but it might be good for Alpha frame (something like: I WANT sex and she should agree, otherwise I'll find someone else) or for you if you are in relationship for longer time (you push only slowly for dominance, if you are pushing too much she will take off) .

You: My sole objective is not to lose her
>>>> And she can feel it no matter what you do. You seem too uptight, too controlling, too needy, too pushy, too clingy. She might feel that you want to "own" her, which is repulsive

With your "options" and overall impression from your text, you seem too controlling, too pushy, and perhaps too needy. You want to have plan for everything that can happen, you want to pin down the exact relationship status between you and her. If I can read it from your text she can definitely feel it from you. You might have underlying anxiety, possibly even OCD. Stop controlling everything, let go, you don't have to be exactly "BF-GF" status, just have fun, give her time and space to breath.

Sometimes you don't have to "discuss", "offer", or "assure" her of anything. You just let it be the way it is, you just let the relationship grow the natural way. If there is enough attraction from both sides the relationship will grow. If not, she will fade away regardless what you want, say or do.

You can't really "push" the relationship on her, rather you should "pull" her towards you by being attractive male with great fundamentals, by showing dominance and leadership but at the same you are giving her enough freedom. The relationship might get serious after a while, but you don't need to push for seriousness.

I would stop pushing, I would stop with being BF, I would stop putting label on the relationship status, and just tried to enjoy the time you have with her, see where it goes....

Just an impression, hope it helps

 

[Drck]

I have to add some stuff. Don't take it as a critique bro, I'm just trying to put it to another perspective so you see it from different angle. Regarding your options:

Option 1)

"I know YOU ARE AFRAID to enter into a relationship because YOU ARE SCARED of getting HURT". >>>> That is just (IMO) too negative, too much feelings for a guy, implying too many negative feelings and pain. You are thinking too much, you are thinking for her, you are suggesting that she has too many negative emotions. You are assuming too much, in reality you don't really know what is she thinking, nobody does. You are kind of throwing a lot of negativity at her If I got to this point (but I would do everything to avoid it) I would try something like this:

"SOME people went through not so good relationship (here I am making everything vague, abstract, I'm not pinning it to one particular person, I am avoiding all the pain and hurt, but I am acknowledging that bad relationships exist and moving on quickly) but I always do my best to make my relationships work out. My past experience was always great...". Or something like that. Mention briefly the negativity then move quickly on to positivity and amplify positivity. Note that you are not putting pressure on her, you are taking ownership of the relationship and you are trying your best so it works out. You are leading.

"Do you want me to see you less often, and we take this slower or do you want..." >>>> Here you are giving her too much power. First, you threw a lot of negativity at her, and then you give her all the power to make decisions, asking her what she wants. She is in negative mood right now, and you are expecting some positive decision from her? No way.

Option 2)
"I will not call you baby or darling ok?" >>>> Well, you don't have to tell her that. Just don't call her that anymore.
"I can live being single and I think you want that too" >>>> Well, she knows it too, she is not stupid, but you saying that you are kind of showing all of your cards. She doesn't want to see your cards, she doesn't want to know. She wants you to be mysterious, at least of little bit.

"but I don't want to see you out of my life completely, we can at least be friend" >>>> Now you are begging. You are kneeling in front of her and begging for her attention. See me at least at least once every two weeks, if that is not good for you at least once a month. Please, please, just see me... No, she doesn't want to hear that either. She doesn't want more friends, she has plenty of them, all of them are useless as far as her sex life. You never move yourself to friend zone voluntarily, you never agree to be her friend (unless you are beginner and have no experience with girls at all). Once she starts talking about you being her friend you are gone

"what do you think?" >>>> In my opinion, she could think that you are a pussy. Beggar. Guy who will do anything to keep her attention. Guy who moved himself voluntarily to friend zone and expect her admiration for that.

Option 3)
"Do you feel happy being with me? I feel happy being with you. If we are happy together, what's the problem?" >>>> Now you are trying to argue with her, logically convince her to be with you. Women don't go by logic, they go by feelings. Logic is repulsive to her feelings. She doesn't want to argue, she wants to have fun. The whole Option 3 is argument, you are trying to convince her to love you and to be with you. It just doesn't work that way, you can't convince anyone to like you, love you or be with you. You can OFFER love by your personality, attraction and fundamentals, but you can't make anyone to do that.

You are also talking too much about feelings. As her BF, she wants somebody who is more emotionally stable, more manly, someone who she can put her head on for support, someone who won't start crying because he is more emotional than she is.

"I pick myself up and keep trying because being in love again is a risk worth taking" >>>> Well, but how does she interpret this sentence? What she could easily hears is something like: He fell in love several times already, he he was always rejected because he had to pick himself up, many times. Being in love should be great and positive feelings, but why is he talking about risks? Risk means anxiety and fear of loosing, is he anxious? What does he fear? If he already fears that I will dump him now, how is his fear going to be 2 months from now? How am I suppose to deal with his fear from love?

 

[Norton]

Thanks guys. I will take up both your recommendation and go for option 1.

How long do I have to wait until I initiate the conversation though? It happened on Wednesday so it has been 3 days to date.

 

[Norton]

3 days later...

Message sent:

" XX.. Some people go through not so good relationship.. We are not perfect but I always try to be a better person and make mine work..
In the past, I split with my exes because she had to move overseas to study and the second one finished her visa but we still keep in contact. Both still remember me because ive never been bad to them.
Anyway, my sofa came this morning and Im sending you a picture now "

(Re the sofa, she knows I just moved into a new place)

 

[Norton]

I found this answer on Yahoo Answers to be relevant to my situation. I just want to share for those who are interested.
https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/i ... 646AAS7WjK

She hasnt replied yet, but probably 3 days later I will send something to her bit and pieces from the comments below.


As you may have found out yourself - "ultimatums" do not work in relationships. You can not handle or control your future relationship.. Mostly because you can not force a person to make an emotional decision and expect everything to be all good.

I understand you have a need to define your relationship and she does not. But it's only a definition and words alone pale in comparison to how you both feel about each other. (Which is all that really matters.)

In order for any relationship to have half a chance you both must be ready on your own terms. It's obvious since both of you seem to go back and forth you're not in the same place at the same time.

Take things as they are and never forget if it's fun and you both enjoy the time you do spend together why go ruining it by pushing.

Relationships are NOT about pushing and pulling. They have to develop naturally

I know how hard it is to let someone you truly love be given the opportunity to date other people. I know how hard it is to risk losing her because of the freedom she seeks.

But never forget this - women always find a way to be with the one guy who's willing to risk losing her despite how deeply he feels. They DO come back. They Do always think about you.

If it helps you - Imagine how much harder her focus is on her career when she's constantly thinking about how much she loves you and how much harder it is for her to gain her right to independence when she's constantly worried about you.

Now I can't tell you not to worry because that's not fair. But I can tell you the strength and courage you display by learning just to enjoy what you can with her (when it's possible) is going to guarantee you will always stay special to her.

No matter what happens the risks you face in life are the ones you will gain the most from.

Take this risk and I won't guarantee your relationship in the future but I will guarantee who you'll develop into as time passes, will be someone your proud of - and that will give you a better chance of being with her more than any ultimatum or the constant need to define your relationships.