It is hard for me to see seduction "objectively" and make optimal choices

[ElChe]

I hope that title isn't shit but there is a peculiar issue I have had with seduction/game as a skill.

I have stories or strange aversions (or I guess points where I get dogmatic/stubborn about "how" I want things to work) about seduction that messes up my ability to see it for what it is.

For example, if I were to ask myself "how do I improve in this specific area?" and the response is like "become more dominant", I'll often instead get into a thought process like "hmm, well what kind of person do *I* want to be? Is it authentic to adopt this new mentality? Is it moral?"

It'll just be weird shit that is completely (or partially) misaligned with the simple mentality of doing what is necessary to be successful with women.

I dunno if that makes sense.

I've had this mentality since I first learned seduction and it consistently has popped up at a lot of points.

In every other skill, I don't second-guess a technique or method "because it doesn't align with my values/identity."

In drawing, I'm not like "this technique will make creating stuff too EASY, I mustn't use it", or in writing I don't think "I don't want to trim my writing because xyz reason".
Nah, I always just do whatever is optimal. It's like my intentions are clear.

It is only in seduction that I hesitate to do the "optimal" (from a "get as many/high quality girls as possible" mentality) thing.

It's strange.


I feel I need to think about this more but if those ideas make sense to anyone (if anyone can relate to that) and has a thought to share, I'd be interested in hearing it.
And I apologize if this comes across as like mental masturbation, I don't mean it to

 

[MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla]

How many women that you want to fuck do you talk to in an average week?

 

[ElChe]

How many women that you want to fuck do you talk to in an average week?

Ermm... yeah that's a valid point, that when a girl I want is in front of me, I stop worrying about that stuff.

But I mean in the meta sense, like motivating myself to be good at seduction in general, is when I get these weird aversions. And that's always happened regardless of my level of abundance.

But yeah, you're right, probably just overthinking and I need to talk to more girls.

 

[OldGuy]

Gentle flirting brightens a woman's day. No need to seduce her to leave her better than before. (Go too far and you need to go all the way though.)

 

[ElChe]

Gentle flirting brightens a woman's day. No need to seduce her to leave her better than before. (Go too far and you need to go all the way though.)

Yeah true.
I think I just treat this stuff too serious at times

 

[MrVariety]

I'm curious what you think about the process of picking up girls you're afraid is risking you into inauthenticity and immorality. You gave the example of dominance. You're afraid that if you start to act too dominant you won't be yourself anymore and you're afraid it's morally wrong to be dominant.

I've struggled with accepting dominance as well. Girls have practically yelled in my face pleading me to be more dominant: "MR VARIETY CAN YOU JUST PLEASE TELL ME WHAT TO DO." I have had this mistaken idea from childhood conditioning that it's wrong to dominate girls, and I've only come to accept it reluctantly over time as it's undeniable from my experience that this is what girls want. There's nothing wrong with being dominant.

As for the question, "but is that really me?" well - the question goes both ways. You have a sense of identity as "non dominant" based on your social conditioning so far. You can adapt a new sense of identity as "dominant" based on new social programming. Either way, it's just two different programs. Which one came first does not determine who you really are.

Mr Variety

 

[TomInHo]

---

Hey man, what you’re going through is actually super normal

Skills like writing or drawing feel easier to improve at because we don’t usually attach our identity to them. They don’t challenge who we are at a core level

We just try what works and keep going

But seduction is different

It often asks you to act in ways that feel at odds with your current values, beliefs, or self-image. That’s where the resistance shows up

It’s not just a skill issue. . . it’s an identity issue

Your ego’s job is to protect the current version of you

So when something like seduction pushes you to grow, it feels like a threat. It can trigger thoughts like, “Is this fake? Is this even me?”

But here’s something to consider

Are you the same person now that you were at 13?

Some things probably stayed the same. But a lot changed. Would your 13-year-old self call you fake for evolving?

Probably not. . . You just grew and growth always feels a little unfamiliar at first

So yeah, it’s okay to feel this tension. It’s actually a sign you’re on the edge of something important. Just don’t let it stop you from doing what future you will thank you for

P.S If words like “dominant” make you uncomfortable, feel free to drop that terminology. Instead of “dominant,” you could be more specific

• How do I get more girls to say YES to this request?
• How do I get more girls to agree to this frame?
• How do I get more girls to invest in the interaction at this point?

Because really, it doesn’t matter if you’re “dominant” or not

What matters most is getting the result you want. Maybe focusing on that will feel more aligned than trying to fit some identity ideal

 

[MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla]

Ermm... yeah that's a valid point, that when a girl I want is in front of me, I stop worrying about that stuff.

But I mean in the meta sense, like motivating myself to be good at seduction in general, is when I get these weird aversions. And that's always happened regardless of my level of abundance.

But yeah, you're right, probably just overthinking and I need to talk to more girls.

Id read Tominho’s post was a great post.

Being a motivated person shouldn’t be the target that you are aiming for here. The target should be being a happy person. Usually I’m at my happiest when I have good looking women on my arm and I’m eating good food.

I’ve often found with my state that my mind tries to create adversity out of nothing, and then when I fall into that thinking trap and actually look at how I’m doing I realize I’m doing quite well.

I should find Ijjis Omega game post I miss that guy.

You’ll be happier if you are having se

 

[ElChe]

I'm curious what you think about the process of picking up girls you're afraid is risking you into inauthenticity and immorality.

...

As for the question, "but is that really me?" well - the question goes both ways. You have a sense of identity as "non dominant" based on your social conditioning so far. You can adapt a new sense of identity as "dominant" based on new social programming. Either way, it's just two different programs. Which one came first does not determine who you really are.

Mr Variety

For authenticity-- I came from an artist background (valuing integrity, authenticity) and I thought consciously changing how you present yourself was kinda manipulative, even if well-intentioned.

But it's weird cause a couple years ago I learned marketing/sales (and funnily, the whole business mentality made NO sense to me at first) but that stuff is easy to rationalize. Like, the product and marketing is separate, and good marketing can change someone's life by introducing them to an awesome product.

For immorality-- there are two things.

This is probably a bad thought process but I've had bad experiences falling for women, so from my perspective I'm like, I don't want to make a girl obsessed with me cause *I* think it's annoying (and I don't see the use in it) when I've been thinking about someone too much.

And the other one comes from an experience I had years ago in highschool. At one point I was very motivated for seduction and had a really good mindset, and would flirt a lot with the hottest girl in the school. It was clear she was crushing on me. Then one day her brother died of cancer, and I was like "oh shit". I felt bad because I was just having fun flirting with girls and she was going through something very heavy, and I started associating guilt with flirting/seducing then, and it popped up a few times later.


But yeah, about social programming, you're 100% right. No way of acting is better or worse, it's just about your intentions.

To try to explain myself as simple as possible, I see two broad mindsets:

1. read seduction stuff and apply it fully and 100% without thinking about it, with the goal to become a master seducer and make every girl dream about me

2. be intentional about how I apply the things I learn, so that it aligns with the person I want to be long-term and how I want my relationships with people to be


The first mindset is what I was like for a bit when I first learned seduction, and honestly I have a desire to just be that, to kinda act like the world is a playground.
But I also have a desire for the second mindset because I value the relationships I have and want to be a person of great character.

Maybe it's about separating/compartmentalizing seducing random chicks and my other important relationships...
(I feel this whole thing deserves some more thought)

 

[ElChe]

@TomInHo @MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla
Thank you, it's good to know this isn't uncommon for guys to go through.

Seems like it pays to be very mindful of the ego when you're improving at seduction.

I think the path forward right now is to detach my identity from improving at seduction... and leave these thoughts behind.

Ultimately, the entire process of seduction is a positive one. You're giving positive and exciting experiences to girls, and the intimacy spurs growth for both of you. So I just have to keep a paradigm focused on the positive effect of the whole thing, and deal with the identity and other such thoughts as they come.

 

[MrVariety]

To try to explain myself as simple as possible, I see two broad mindsets:

1. read seduction stuff and apply it fully and 100% without thinking about it, with the goal to become a master seducer and make every girl dream about me

2. be intentional about how I apply the things I learn, so that it aligns with the person I want to be long-term and how I want my relationships with people to be

What you're describing is a natural phase guys are going through.

As a beginner-intermediate you have to embrace #1 because you need to uproot yourself from the socially conditioned cuckholding moralism, and you need to be stop taking responsibility for how women feel, and even learn how to be emotionally cold toward them in this period -- focusing on seduction and you game.

Then you start to get better at it, and you're like "look at me hehhehe yayy im a pimp look at all these girls who are in love me with me!" you're embracing the lightness of being and you think nothing about how the emotional turbulence the women are going through by being seduced by you -- actually, their feelings are just reinforcing you're winning!

Sooner or later as you mature you're realizing that it doesn't actually feel that great -- and you'll develop a magnetic aversion away from cruelty, coldness and capitalizing on negative emotions. And this is appropriate since now you're able to distinguish between social conditioning pulling string of guilt to manipulate you vs. your own real core values.

I guess you could be critical of the guy who's following core values as sort of idealistic, not pragmatic, but one thing I've personally noticed is that I tend to meet and attract women who are my moral equivalent. Not necessarily the same. but compatible-- and that's only logical if you ask me, to try to become that type of person you'd want to attract.

A telltale sign a guy is transition to #2, it gets more and more normal for him to cut off girls faster, instead of trying to squeeze out the most amount of investment/sex you can from a girl before she can't take it anymore, etc., he deliberately foregoes sexual opportunity because it doesn't outweigh the harm.

If it continues his "seductions" become either longer and more emotionally healthier or shorter, but either way, into one direction...

Keeping true to spiritual growth / character maturity and at the same time be involved in seduction -- it's compatible but it seems like the further you go, the narrower the path is and less moral flexibility you'll have to innocently enjoy the fruits of your labor ...

The first mindset is what I was like for a bit when I first learned seduction, and honestly I have a desire to just be that, to kinda act like the world is a playground.
But I also have a desire for the second mindset because I value the relationships I have and want to be a person of great character.

Transcend and include.

Maybe it's about separating/compartmentalizing seducing random chicks and my other important relationships...

You're way too self-reflected to really believe that.

(I feel this whole thing deserves some more thought)

Thumbs up.

Mr Variety