Long distance entanglement -- help please

[ray_zorse]

Hi guys. Thanks a lot for the help in this thread. It helped me to take some tough decisions and therefore tidy up my life. Now I have a kind of similar yet different situation on my hands and I'd appreciate some more advice. I will lay it out.

So now I only have one complicated relationship in my life instead of two. Her name for our purposes is Sayuri. She is Japanese, 32, and a nurse. Unlike with my other relationship, that I ended, there really aren't any significant problems in this relationship. She's very sweet, compliant, fun to be around, and in love with me. There isn't any time I've spent with her that I've felt any reservations about her whatsoever, she is just completely great. I would be keen to have her as my girlfriend, if only she lived in Melbourne. She was living in Cairns before, 5hrs away by plane, and I went to visit her several times, each of which gave me really good feelings. Now she's back home in Japan, which is more difficult. I am going to see her in a month. I'm going to be in Japan for 2 weeks, I will spend about 4 or 5 days cold approaching, I will then stay with Sayuri for 2 days, she has booked a hotel for us in consultation with me (she's an auto invester). I will then spend another 4 or 5 days cold approaching. Then I will take her for a long weekend of tourism in her home province, which has good rafting and other activities I'm keen to try. She will likely drive us around. I will make the decisions.

Now here is the tricky issue. Although I would be keen to have her as my girlfriend, a long distance exclusive relationship is out of the question, and I have told her this. As long as she does not live in my city, a casual relationship is the most that I can offer her. Nor am I particularly keen for her to move to my city just for the purposes of entering into a relationship with me, because it would make her needy and dependent and place a burden on me. I have told her that she should only move to Melbourne if it furthers her life plan, she should look where is the best course for what she wants to do, and make her own decisions on that basis. And, although I haven't said this, I'd be expecting her to find her own place. I won't make promises. But secretly I hope that she moves here (she apparently has at least one friend here, which is good). I have also told her that I absolutely don't mind where she chooses to live, I'm happy to work around it, I will do what I can to further our relationship (e.g. the trips to Cairns and Japan), but money and time are limited, so there's no point in her having high expectations. Basically, I'm just gonna take a practical attitude to this relationship if possible.

Now, that's basically where things stood when she moved back to Japan. But a more pressing issue is, that she's going through a pretty tough time right now. I guess, she misses her support network in Aussie (her host family, her colleagues, friends from language school, etc). She didn't really want to move back home, it was just because her visa ran out. She has moved back in with family, and she seems a little depressed. Her sister and her mum are a good support. She has a close relationship with her dad. But honestly, at 32, living with your parents and not working... it isn't great. I'm not really sure why she isn't working, she did say there were some residency issues that were taking time to sort out, but I'd imagine that's okay now. She's also had a surgery. So I suppose she should be jobhunting and she'd feel a lot better if she had something to do, rather than just fixating on stuff all day. But basically she's become pretty needy and dependent and it's unattractive. We text every day, I enjoy Skyping her, but lately she wants to have relationship talk every time. She says stuff like "I worry about our future". Or, I ask how she is... she says "well, my mood has been better lately, because you text me everyday"... so I try to explain that validation comes from within ourselves, we don't need to get it from external. She kinda understands I think.

What should I do? Am I being unfair to her? I guess it's kind of like the "standard situation" with FWB... 3 months has passed, she wants commitment, I should graciously accede to that, or let her go... on the other hand, I think my position has been a pretty reasonable one, I don't see how she could possibly have misunderstood the situation as I see it, and she's probably being a bit unrealistic in having high expectations of our relationship. I was gonna break up with her recently and be exclusive with Leticia (simply because Sayuri lives far away), but in the event I couldn't do it, and I'm glad I didn't. She didn't deserve that, since it was arising from a situation that had nothing to do with her. What I want to do is to support Sayuri through the hard time she's having, but I think that my relationship with Sayuri is unfortunately having a harmful effect on her, because it's preventing her living in the moment and making the best of the situation she has now. Quite a few of our discussions have centred around living in the now. I have discovered that Eckhart Tolle "The Power of Now" and "A New Earth" are available in Japanese (latter is hilariously called "A New Arse"), and I'm gonna order them for her, because I think they'd help her in her current situation. However, I cannot solve her problems and I'm worried I'm trying to mould her.

Ray

 

[Smith]

Hey Ray,

Thanks for linking me that website on "codependence" on my other thread. It even helped me to realize some of my own issue as well.
Looking at your situation from a 3rd person point of view. It does seem like you want to solve her problem for her, instead of letting her to work it out herself. If you try to help her and make her problem your problem, you're reinforcing a viscious cycle and making her more dependent on you.

But honestly, at 32, living with your parents and not working... it isn't great. I'm not really sure why she isn't working, she did say there were some residency issues that were taking time to sort out, but I'd imagine that's okay now. She's also had a surgery. So I suppose she should be jobhunting and she'd feel a lot better if she had something to do, rather than just fixating on stuff all day. But basically she's become pretty needy and dependent and it's unattractive. We text every day, I enjoy Skyping her, but lately she wants to have relationship talk every time. She says stuff like "I worry about our future". Or, I ask how she is... she says "well, my mood has been better lately, because you text me everyday"... so I try to explain that validation comes from within ourselves, we don't need to get it from external. She kinda understands I think.

I think the reason she's confused and worried is because on one hand you said you only want a casual relationship...yet you're doing bf-gf relationship things together, i.e. you text everyday, you're helping her to improve her life situation, she's booking a hotel for you guys when you visit japan. Your action is not congruent with your words so that's why she brings up the relationship talk every time. She wants to feel secure that she's doing all these relationship stuff for you because you guys are a "couple". Chances are she's probably not even that depressed about her life situation but more worried about tying you down.

If I remember correctly, it seems like you're following the same pattern with what happened with Leticia.

 

[ray_zorse]

Thanks Smith, I really appreciate the help. Yes, I agree that FWB is incongruent and not sustainable given her current state of worry and frequent requests for reassurance. What I could not figure out though, is why on Earth someone would want to undergo the misery of exclusive LDR if they didn't have to, so this was leading to my basically trivializing her concerns and writing them off as being due to low mood. You're right -- she's seeing it as long term (maybe leading to babies, etc -- she is 32) and is willing to do exclusive LDR thing for the sake of making that happen. It's hard to believe a cute woman could be in that kind of scarcity but I suppose when you are a woman and accustomed to passivity it's hard to know when an attractive dominant guy with means and proven reproductive success is gonna come along, or more importantly take a strong interest in her particularly. Hmm.

So, based on what you said I spent the day steeling myself to break up with her, feeling that the situation is not as different from Leticia's as I had thought... and feeling quite distressed about it. But ultimately I was struck by the suddenness of one day giving the requested reassurances and then the following day breaking up. I think those reassurances came from a genuine place -- she really is important to me.

So what I ultimately decided to do is wait 1 month, I will see if she gets a job in that time and how it affects her life plan, and when I see her in Kobe I will be more honest with her about my secret hope that she move to Australia and more supportive (for example letting her move in, etc, rather than just demanding it be completely her decision and I can promise her nothing), and see how realistic this actually is. If she doesn't have any real plan to do that, then I will end it.

Ray

 

[Franco]

ray,

It's hard to believe a cute woman could be in that kind of scarcity but I suppose when you are a woman and accustomed to passivity it's hard to know when an attractive dominant guy with means and proven reproductive success is gonna come along, or more importantly take a strong interest in her particularly. Hmm.

What you're missing here is the element of you -- women always have a solid level of abundance, but they always feel like they are lacking absolute abundance. Essentially, you're downplaying how much of an amazing man she sees you as.

Assuming you've been attentive to her feelings while simultaneously giving her amazing sex on the regular, you might just be the most amazing man she has (and ever will have) met. So think about that for a minute... and then think about how much it would cost her to let you go at the age of 32. Chances are, she won't have a man of your caliber again, right?

I did the same thing for a bit when I started my relationship with my girlfriend. I devalued some of the time we spent together, and it made me realize that that time was extremely invaluable to her because of the way she viewed me -- I'm the most amazing thing she's come across in her entire life. She values every single minute she spends with me, and while she has her own interests and passions as well as other men kissing her feet, you are the guy that makes her heart flutter and her mind race.

Don't devalue the man this website teaches you to become. It's part of the reason we often tell guys to not hurt girls here -- we know that we are the best out there. =)

- Franco

 

[Motiv]

What you're missing here is the element of you -- women always have a solid level of abundance, but they always feel like they are lacking absolute abundance. Essentially, you're downplaying how much of an amazing man she sees you as.

…

Don't devalue the man this website teaches you to become. It's part of the reason we often tell guys to not hurt girls here -- we know that we are the best out there. =)

- Franco

Franco, you have a level of maturity and understanding that I truly admire. Reading this post of yours felt like the weight of the world coming off my shoulders—I'd wager Ray feels the same.

GC is a very special place with men like you moderating.

Many, many thanks,

-M

 

[Motiv]

…
Assuming you've been attentive to her feelings while simultaneously giving her amazing sex on the regular, you might just be the most amazing man she has (and ever will have) met. So think about that for a minute... and then think about how much it would cost her to let you go at the age of 32. Chances are, she won't have a man of your caliber again, right?
…
Don't devalue the man this website teaches you to become. It's part of the reason we often tell guys to not hurt girls here -- we know that we are the best out there. =)

- Franco

Ray,

I just came upon this message this morning. It's over three months old…

The timing of this could not be more uncanny: this message was contained within the gift of a book given to me by the last girl I took as a lover (Danish girl from three months ago). She was 39.

Chase was right: I punched her so hard in the ovaries, it must have hurt beyond belief. I devalued the man this website has taught me to become likely because I am an LSE man—I know I need to fix that.

Ray, whatever you decide to do, just make sure you don't underestimate your own value. Men and women may love quite differently, but we shouldn't underestimate the depth to which they can love us—especially GC-quality guys.

Best,

-M

 

[ray_zorse]

Yes, I should have replied earlier to say I agree, and thanks for the help. It's weird to have girls chasing me for commitment. I wish it would translate to everyday girls chasing me for sex though. Hehe. I need to up the lover vibe and downgrade the bf vibe a bit. Anyway, it's a vivid illustration of why one shouldn't go on dates with FWB and give them false hope, a perspective which I would never have thought of before.
Ray

 

[Motiv]

Yes, I should have replied earlier to say I agree, and thanks for the help. It's weird to have girls chasing me for commitment. I wish it would translate to everyday girls chasing me for sex though. Hehe. I need to up the lover vibe and downgrade the bf vibe a bit. Anyway, it's a vivid illustration of why one shouldn't go on dates with FWB and give them false hope, a perspective which I would never have thought of before.
Ray

Ray,

This is exactly what I did wrong with the Danish girl. She chased hard for commitment during her final week in the States, which severely irritated me. I want the same thing as you: everyday girls chasing me for sex (which she did hardcore in the beginning). I want and have to work on the same thing as you do, too: toning down my boyfriend vibe and upping the lover-only aspect of myself—a great psychological hurdle I've found. That's the reason I'm gunning so hard in fitness—hoping that upping my physical manliness will help make a breakthrough in my head.

-M

 

[ray_zorse]

Plot thickens, well I'm skirting auto rejection here, which is understandable in the circumstances, although I do not feel good about it since it's a result of my failure to either commit or let her go. She sounded angry and short with me when I updated her on plan for tourism and sought her agreement to go ahead and book. I suppose I navigated that through honesty: "well, the plan was xxx because yyy and that's why I asked if it was suitable to you. You don't care, what do you mean? If you want to cancel, it's okay. I wanted to give you a treat, though" (I realize this sounds chasey, but it's supposed to be for her birthday, also I'm doing -value +attainability moves, finally I want to frame it as value-giving not taking).

So, she hasn't auto rejected, but thing is, she's not following ny lead on how we spend the time, and says she had some other plans for us. I have the feeling that agreeing to this would be the start of the collapse of my dominant frame. I would not mind doing her stuff but I'm concerned it will set a poor precedent, in any case I am sure we will have a much more enjoyable time if we follow my lead, as it will take her out of her comfort zone (have arranged some extreme sports etc). I think solution may be to compromise by dividing the time in half, the remainder of the stuff I wasn't as determined to do, although I still want to do someday.

Or, is it better to just call it off and tell her I don't think we should have a relationship beyond friends. I feel this is getting out of control, I feel confused and not in touch with my feelings. I don't want this to be the start of a drama filled, codependent relationship. I want to set strong boundaries about acceptable behaviour, yet lead compassionately.

Fuck.

Ray

 

[Drck]

Just curious, what do you guys get out of relationship(s) at first place?

The way I see it:

* You always have to compromise
* She will always push to tie you down, unless she is not really into you
* You are always co-dependent up to some degree (if not you would chose to live alone)
* There is always some degree of neediness and insecurity in the desire to be with another person
* You always have to manage the relationship in order to keep it healthy, which means you have to rather create some sophisticated system and think everything through (but great job Ray in management); which also means you are investing a lot of time and effort into that person
* Your likelyhod of practicing Beta-ish lifestyle is much higher than likelyhod of practicing Alpha-ish lifestyle. After a while, you will simply become a Beta, unless you exert some significant effort to remain more independence
* You always want to keep at least some upper hand in that relationship, otherwise it will eventually ended up in disaster, which may be a problem if the guy is not naturally dominant
* If it is monogamous, you are giving up on other females, just so you can see one pussy over and over
* If it is non-monogamous, open - what's the point of being with one person anyway?


Ok, perhaps it is over-simplified and I can go on and on, but I'm just curious - what is the underlying need to be with that particular person?

 

[Motiv]

@Drck: My personal feeling about why we men want relationships? There is a deep-seeded conditioning that we as males absorb subconsciously through our upbringing—public schools, church, family, media, etc.. It totally contradicts our masculine instinct to strive for greatness—it lulls us into the comfort zone of mediocrity. I am personally struggling hard core with bringing this false conditioning within myself to the light of day, so I can route it out for good—no easy task (especially on an emotional level—dangerously skirting the realm of deep depression) but it must be done if I am to be the man I want to be and have the life I truly desire.

@Ray: Just my two cents from a newbie: lay down the dominant frame you (and her) crave and let her take it or leave it. Either way, you will both be happier: if she chooses to leave, no harm no foul; if she chooses to stay, she will be glad she has a dominant man to lead her.

If, on the other hand, you cave, both of you (as most married couples in the world) will end up grey and/or miserable.

Again, just my two cents from a newbie.

-M

 

[Drck]

Agree Mischief, it is tough. There is definitely the external influence as you describe, family, church, school...
Actually family dynamics seems to be quite important, much more important than it appears on first sight... We sort of play certain roles in our families, and based on which roles were "assigned" to us, we behave in the whole society... Scapegoats, lost children, caretakers, stars, victims... It's difficult to break out of this role because it is deeply subconscious, it goes back to out first years of life when we were dependent and strongly bonded to our parent(s)...

There are also inner factors, not sure how to call it, but overall it is immaturity. A child normally desires love and admiration from his parents. At the time of early childhood, our life is dependent on our parents, and thus we create a strong bond to them. When we do something good we are (hopefully) rewarded for it by love. When we do something bad, we are most likely ignored, and the less fortunate are punished. When repeated multiple times, this over time causes separation from some of our emotions, which later on created a big mess in our adult lives...

For instance, when we were expressing natural pleasurable/sexual desires while parents disagreed (or punished), we simply dissociated ourselves from those desires. Our brains associated them with being bad, negative, even painful due to emotional withdrawal from our parents...

So now we have a child who associates emotional or physical pain with feelings of pleasure, who associates fear of losing love from a person of interest - should he express pleasurable/sexual desire... It's obviously a big mess once the child becomes an adult, he will have naturally problems with girls... On one side he really wants to be around girls because that is his natural desire, and on the other he associates any interaction with girls as being painful... Which sort of creates split personality, at least up to some degree...

During childhood, there may have not been sufficient bonding with parents. The "immaturity" then presents in adults as a suppressed desire to bind with others - we want to receive love from others (especially girls). We want to fulfill that feeling of love that we are subconsciously missing, thus we are still creating co-dependent relationships... This immaturity is also a source of all the neediness and insecurities that the particular guy has...

Personally I believe that females can feel this desire to bond (to be loved by females) that the guy has, and in their minds they evaluate the guy based on 'neediness' for attachment, neediness for love, neediness for pleasure... The less needy the guy is the higher chances he's got to be a lover, in a sense that she will develop high attraction towards him as she knows she can't really tie him down for partnership...

For example, classical Alpha male has no need for feeling of love, that's why he remains rather emotionally 'cold and distant'. He is simply not expecting or desiring any emotional attachments to female(s), he is not looking for those sweet feelings of love. That's also a reason why he can walk away from any woman because he is emotionally independent....

On the other hand, the more needy the guy is, the less attractive he is to females. But she also knows that he is fairly easily manipulated, she knows she can mold him into a great provider by creating this strong emotional bond. All she needs to do is to hook him on Love and Sex, and then slowly adjust his behavior into providership... By giving him love and sex when he does what she wants, and by withdrawing love and sex when he doesn't comply, he becomes more and more dependent on her... Classical Nice Guy has the emotional need of feeling female's love, and females can simply feel his neediness to bond, his neediness to feel the female love... Females then don't want be providers of this love to him, they reject him, they don't want to be this 'loving mamma' to him, and the more they reject him the more he has the desire to be loved... It's a visious cycle...

This is IMO the source of desire to be in a relationship, but I'd like to hear another opinions as well...

The important thing to notice is, that once a guy gives up the desire to feel love or to be in love with woman, once he drops all the desire for the sweet feelings and vibes that the females can provide, he is totally free of women. Totally independent, no matter how beautiful and sweet she is - she is only a casual persons to him... He truly doesn't care what women think about him, he is not shy because he is not trying to prove himself to girls or impress them, he has no worries about rejection because he is not emotionally attached at first place... he simply does what he wants - and that makes him truly attractive to females... They simply feel that he is a mature man who is not dependent on any emotional bond with females, which makes him truly sexy...

 

[ray_zorse]

Thanks Drck mate. I will be having a talk with her in coming days (postponed from last night), and I was probably going to fall into the neediness trap you described (even though I understand the dynamics, just it's easy to think "this girl is different" and give in to one's urges when things are just not working). A very timely reminder that perfectly describes my mental state. cheers. Ray