Long-Term Potential and Withholding Sex

[Frost]

Hey there,

Anybody who's been reading GC for a while and even other material as well has read this famous idea: Women tend to have sex with men they categorize as lovers who happen to have little to no long term potential while they will withhold sex with men they consider providers, who seem like a good deal for a long term relationship. And there is of course the idea that if you have sex with a women in the beginning it will be easier to develop a long term relationship than the other way around.

Hence my question: a lot of guys (myself included) have a lot of value and when they meet a woman she will immediately consider them worthy of a long term relationship. So if you are in this place and trying to escalate, I assume you will encounter a lot of LMR because of the idea above. What can a person do in this case? I've read somewhere that at some point before getting to the kiss you say something like "I think we have something really special here" so she will be like "Okay this guy seems to be interested in more than just sex. Might not be that bad to have sex with him".

 

[ray_zorse]

What you say is correct, they treat lovers and providers (or potential lovers / potential providers) differently.

There are 2 main things you can do to put yourself in the lover category. The first is to MOVE FAST, have sex with her on the first date. If you begin to court her (take her on many dates etc), you're automatically in the provider category, you seem to EXPECT she won't give sex and she'll meet your expectations (she's not a slut after all ). The other thing is to use boyfriend disqualifiers. Basically be the kind of guy she COULD or WOULD NEVER bring home to her mum. This isn't something I'm great at, I have the same problem as you -- nice apartment, older guy with proven reproductive success, of course she wants to be my girlfriend. But you could say things like "I had some bad experiences -- I don't really believe in love or relationships anymore and I'm not sure I'd want to have another one" or "I've just got out of relationship, I'm enjoying being free at the moment -- I'm not sure I want to get straight back into relationship". You could also disqualify yourself by saying you have large debts, for example. Or, like me, you could travel a lot, and hit on women who you won't be seeing after some fixed time period, that way they know there's no possibility for relationship. You also want to make it clear you're seeing other women (without actually saying that), which positions you as a challenge. As to the thing you suggested, it might be helpful if you are having attainability issues. But it would NOT tend to put you in the lover category, rather the reverse. You didn't say where you got this advice from, was it Cosmo magazine?

Ray

 

[Frost]

Thank you for your answers. So if I understand correctly, provider means virtually no sex? Even if you pass her tests and build sexual tension? It is possible to be somewhere between lover and provider right?

In my case it's not as much being a provider as being boyfriend material (I'm 20 still in college so there isn't much providing I can do yet), but my idea was that if she knew that you wouldn't just leave after sex, she would resist it less right?

You didn't say where you got this advice from, was it Cosmo magazine?

LOL I can see why you said. Seriously I've been looking everywhere to try and find it again.

 

[ray_zorse]

Provider doesn't mean no sex. What it means is a long wait for sex -- try 5, 6, 7, ... dates over the course of a month or two, she might make out with you on date 4 or 5 to keep you interested, but you'll still have to keep demonstrating your commitment if you want to get the honey. Of much more concern is that a lot can go wrong in that time -- if you're genuinely a really great and attractive guy, with a great income and a generous disposition, you're kind and friendly, you're genuinely non-needy (because you don't see sex as a scarce resource, even though you're not GC trained so you're competing for the provider role because you don't know any better)... then sure, you will probably get there in the end. But more likely you'll drop the ball somewhere and fail to sell yourself as the great guy that you actually ARE, so she'll lose attraction, and all that time and energy invested in her will be wasted. The other big concerning factor is that PROVIDERS AREN'T ATTRACTIVE, investing all that time and energy and emotion into her, with no guarantee of getting the honey, says SCARCITY and that you have few if any other options. High value guys simply do not behave that way, ergo, if you do you're not a high value guy. So, you may get sex, but SHE WON'T ENJOY IT AS MUCH. She'll also be looking to control when and how you have sex, so if you were planning to have sex 3 times a day, anal sex, tie her up and so on, you'll likely be disappointed. NICE girls don't do that, they stay primly in control and dispense the honey at a sufficient frequency to keep him interested and providing for her.
Ray
PS. Whether you're going to leave straight after sex plays no role in her calculations as long as you're in the lover zone. If anything, a greater concern for her is that you might NOT leave, you might become needy and clingy and hang around pestering her for further meetups and more sex.

 

[Frost]

PS. Whether you're going to leave straight after sex plays no role in her calculations as long as you're in the lover zone. If anything, a greater concern for her is that you might NOT leave, you might become needy and clingy and hang around pestering her for further meetups and more sex.

I was asking about the provider zone. The way I understand this whole thing (correct me if I'm wrong) is that if a man is a provider she will withhold sex (and give it bit by bit like you said) to keep him invested in her. The corollary would be that she doesn't have sex with him from the beginning because there is a higher chance of messing it up (one of the reasons is him taking what he wanted and never calling her again).

The whole lover provider thing is a model, so I guess you can be somewhere in between, right? Let's say you are boyfriend material (not a provider in the sense of taking her to dinner and buying her stuff and so on) but at the same time passing her tests and building a lot of attraction and sexual tension, where does that leave you theoretically?

In my current situation I'm seeing a girl who is really into me, and there is a lot of attraction and sexual tension. I didn't kiss her or have sex with her on the first date, and even tough I think she sees me as potential boyfriend material, I haven't been a provider in the classical sense (check out my other thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11698). I'm planning to seal the deal on the second date, but do you think I missed the opportunity to move fast?

I know I shouldn't be too invested in 1 girl and so on but I want to understand what's going on so I can do react properly at the time, and learn from it for next time.

 

[ray_zorse]

Yes, you're exactly right, BF-zone isn't quite provider-zone yet, although it's a slippery slope. Check out this report and you can see what Chase has to say on the topic, specifically

Letting her think of you a little more as a boyfriend won't kill you - you can always do date compression, which will work out fine in most cases.

However, your suggested line is still going to move you closer towards provider zone so don't do it. Remember "show don't tell"... just kiss her. She'll know you're into her.
Ray

 

[Frost]

Thanks again for your answer. The article is really good and it answered a lot of questions actually.

Just to he clear, when you say "just kiss her" you mean and escalate as well right?

 

[ray_zorse]

Yes, I really just meant do your normal routine same as you would for any other girl. It's honestly best to let her draw her own conclusions as to your intentions, that's called being mysterious. Her thought process should be... "OMG what are his intentions?!... is it just a friendly hangout or IS HE GOING TO KISS ME?!... OHHH can I get this guy? is he for real?!... OMG what a sexy sexy man... I had better get him ASAP... how can I act more sexy?!... does he like me for real or is it just sex?!... hope he stays around!!" et cetera. Once you state your intentions outright, all that tension is gone and you're no challenge, hence you lose a lot of attractiveness and mental investment. (After you lay her, the rules do change slightly, but you can worry about that when you've laid her).
Ray

 

[Frost]

I took your advice last night, check out my report.

Regardless of the results I got last night, I can see your point. I'l keep it mind for future times