Mainstream View of PUA

[Casanovelis]

Recently I have been perusing through youtube for PUA video's to see what they had to say in contrast to Girls Chase. I found a Dr. Phil special in which he had a PUA from New York City. It just really furnished ancillary support to Chase's recent article "Why is Mainstream Dating Advice Is So Ineffective?" But not in the sense of propounding mainstream advice... It was how the audience reacted. The PUA displayed same fundamentals/technique as is propagated as this site and claimed to have slept with over 130 women. When he talked to Dr. Phil it reminded me of what Chase said about mainstream TV catering to women. He was portrayed at the beginning of the show almost as a deviant manipulator. All of the women in the audience looked on him in disgust as he talked. All he ever said was women are just like men in that everyone is trying to get by in life and one shouldn't be afraid to talk to women or put them on a pedestal. The quote was a bit crude if you watch, but I don't believe there was any malicious intent behind it. Anyways it was an interesting watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCa2aJu6Yrw

 

[Marty]

First thing I notice is that this man Paul has rock-solid fundamentals. The contrast with Nardeep later in the show (classic "nice guy") couldn't be more clear-cut.

Regarding your question on the women's reactions: you need to realize that they were in each other's presence and needed to act up a little "shocked" to preserve reputations. Look closely and you can see intrigue written over their faces underneath.

 

[Franco]

Casanovelis,

I just watched the vid. I won't comment too much on what you've already noticed (about the mainstream reaction), but judging by his vibe, I'd say the guy is probably very legit. I've been around a lot of naturals, and you can just tell when they have that "it" factor, and that guy has it. He had solid fundamentals and his approach was very direct and to the point (without any gimmicks or fluff -- girls see through that stuff).

Also, Nardeep had some pretty damn good responses to those women throwing him rather low-energy questions. That's an example of a guy who has a very good, natural "improvisational" awareness factor but is just lacking the experience and confidence (as was noted by the PUA) to really run away with this and start sleeping with attractive women. I think some guys just don't realize how good they can be because they've never experienced success, but I can tell you that he showed a lot of potential just from the one or two approaches I saw him do.

Good stuff!

- Franco

 

[Casanovelis]

First thing I notice is that this man Paul has rock-solid fundamentals. The contrast with Nardeep later in the show (classic "nice guy") couldn't be more clear-cut.

Regarding your question on the women's reactions: you need to realize that they were in each other's presence and needed to act up a little "shocked" to preserve reputations. Look closely and you can see intrigue written over their faces underneath.

Ha I see the intrigue as well, very subtle though.

Casanovelis,

I just watched the vid. I won't comment too much on what you've already noticed (about the mainstream reaction), but judging by his vibe, I'd say the guy is probably very legit. I've been around a lot of naturals, and you can just tell when they that "it" factor, and that guy has it. He had solid fundamentals and his approach was very direct and to the point (without any gimmicks or fluff -- girls see through that stuff).

Also, Nardeep had some pretty damn good responses to those women throwing him rather low-energy questions. That's an example of a guy who has a very good, natural "improvisational" awareness factor but is just lacking the experience and confidence (as was noted by the PUA) to really run away with this and start sleeping with attractive women. I think some guys just don't realize how good they can be because they've never experienced success, but I can tell you that he showed a lot of potential just from the one or two approaches I saw him do.

Good stuff!

- Franco

Thanks Franco. Probably the biggest mainstream PUA that I have come across (have not even checked any videos out) is a man called "Mystery." This dude seems to be everywhere. I even remember a special being on VH1. His dress and character just screams pretension as opposed to "Paul" off of Dr. Phil. What is the general consensus on this guy?

 

[Franco]

Probably the biggest mainstream PUA that I have come across (have not even checked any videos out) is a man called "Mystery." This dude seems to be everywhere.

Yeah, I heard about this guy even when I was back in high school. I never really looked into him too much because his style (which is even apparent in this photo) just screams "I peacock and have great one-liners that work!" It's not something I'm a fan of, and none the naturals I've known have done anything like this either. Rather, they look more like Paul so that they're good-looking and sexy but also fly under the radar.

Mystery seems like the definition of a "reactions vs. results" (laughing with girls instead of sleeping with girls) type of guy to me.

- Franco

 

[PinotNoir]

After watching this video, I like this Paul guy, although he can come off a little too cold and too calculating at times, but you can tell that he just has "it" -- as already been mentioned. Nardeep talks so effortlessly in his interview at the end; I also agree with just a little confidence he could go a long way. Nardeep is really inspirational and makes me to want to try the club/bar scene more! I'm always thinking NY is the place to be, but he said the exact same line that I say about my place: "It's hard to approach here in the club/bar." It just shows you that everyone gets that feeling about where they live.

As far as Mystery, I'd be interested in Chase's opinion, but I'm sure he doesn't want to criticize other PUAs publicly.... bad for business and such. I'd be interested in his opinion about the Richard guy on YouTube as well.

Watching Mystery on VH1 in college was the first time that I had ever heard about PUA stuff. It boosted my confidence more to go out and approach women at the library, parties, etc. So, I think the show was helpful for me in that regard; it made it look so easy. As far as Mystery himself and his techniques, I think they're all about getting out of "autopilot" as Chase puts it, but it's always been way over the top for me and not stuff that I wanted to emulate. I never truly read his book or tried his stuff, so I don't honestly know if it works. The only positive things that I got out of it were: there are plenty of women, approaching/talking to women is easier than you think, and don't put women on a pedestal. As far as what I mean about getting women out of autopilot, it's the following:

• 1. Dress in a unique way; I think he said, "Dress like a rock star."
• 2. Open with something unique; 3 examples from the show:
  • "Hey, did you see that fight outside?" (complete lie and go into details about fight and then talk with her)
  • "Hey, what movie is this from, 'Who put baby in a corner?'"
  • "Hey, did you know that 40% of women masturbate in the shower and the other 60% sing?" "No, I didn't know that." "Do you know what song that they sing?" "No." "Ahhh, I know what percentage you are then "
• 3. Kiss her in a unique way or at a unique point in the conversation.

It feels pretty gimmicky and one-liner-esque like Franco said. The bigger picture is to get her out of autopilot and have her experience things that she has never experienced from another guy before.

I'd still never dress like him though, and like I said, I never read his book. I don't know his full process and if it works.

I remember Chase making a comment about PUAs in general related to ones that have a king complex or something where they need to be in the spotlight and have people that love them and look up to them, and I think Mystery is one of those people. And, I remember Chase writing about how Mystery finds true love at the end of his book or something and gives up all of this "PUA" stuff or something, and how it's just in there to sell books (as in reality, he ended up divorcing her or something).

 

[Eternity]

Mystery coached Neil Strauss and are the ones who kinda started it all PUA wise. Kinda shocked you never heard of them. Have u read "The Game" by Neil Strauss? Anyway there is some legit stuff coming from Mystery as in fundamentals, holding frame (his word), IOI'S (his word), push-pull. Many terms are known because of him and other PUA's. Now i don't really like routines, canned openers, peacocking, "winning the group" theory but i respect some of his knowledge as he is one of the elders of mainstream pickup. His style worked well for the "nerds" who wanted to get good at pickup but it has been overused too much to be that effective anymore thanks to the exposure from his show. He has slept with a lot of women too IDK about Strauss but Tucker Max is fond of him so they must agree on some things pickup wise.
If it wasn't for a crappy day that i ran into a copy of "The Game", i wouldn't be posting here or had any knowledge about this side of dating. I like Chase because he puts it all together better than all PUA's out there and his style is almost entirely like my style. So both men have their own styles and what works for them, nothing but respect for both

P.S- Saw the video, dude is very good looking not really surprised at his success. Textbook G.C method and theory applied so this obviously supercharges his success with women. This is a pretty good video, shows what we are all learning works if practiced.

 

[Casanovelis]

I like Chase because he puts it all together better than all PUA's out there and his style is almost entirely like my style.

I agree. What attracts me to this site is the lack of fluff and it is completely fundamentals based. Like most here I have a distaste for the term PUA as well.
Learning to be better with women as a skill set isn't manipulation, which is how Dr. Phil lightly suggested. He said something along the lines of women at 2 AM trying to figure out exactly what happened to them like it is some time of date rape drug. The answer is simple. Men who acquire and utilize fundamentals are more attractive to women because they understand them. Who wants to be misunderstood?

There is no magic potion, but there is understanding.

And knowledge is the key to transformation. Everyone came here to change for the better.

One thing that was attractive about the Youtube video and interests myself in general is seeing video of approaches. New site addition Chase?
There would be ethical implications of bugging yourself with a camera to approach unknowing individuals and posting it online, so I don't see it happening. Plus it would be a hell of a lot of work. But I bet there's not a soul on this forum that wouldn't enjoy it.

 

[Chase]

As far as Mystery, I'd be interested in Chase's opinion, but I'm sure he doesn't want to criticize other PUAs publicly.... bad for business and such.

Erik/Mystery was one of the key early figures in the seduction movement. Ross Jeffries was first with Speed Seduction; Erik's the guy who really tried to codify a lot of female behavior and bring some measure of scientific thinking into the field. He built up a lot of jargon and terminology and gets known among the public for mostly his black nail polish and fuzzy hats and funny terms like neg and DHV and whatnot, but he's a very intelligent guy and one of the original trailblazers in this niche. Maybe think of Mystery like Grandmaster Flash or Rakim or someone along those lines if you know early Hip-Hop... their methods and styles might seem a little dated now, but they were the guys who took Hip-Hop from nothing to a position where it was really opened up to the masses and started attracting a lot more talent.

As for his method itself, it's actually quite good if you combine it with natural game. I had a talented natural friend who discovered PUA in the mid-2000s and taught himself Mystery Method, reporting that it made picking up club girls so easy for him that it got very boring, because he was constantly running the same routines and getting the same responses and all the interactions would go the same way. He eventually stopped using it and went back to just doing things with natural conversation simply because he didn't enjoy running MM anymore (and he wanted to start doing day game again, which MM is not really suited to).

Erik himself I've only met once, at a birthday party back in 2008; he was something of a dick to me, and we got into a bit of a nasty exchange involving him calling me irrelevant and me reminding him he'd been booted out of his own company, but were fine with each other by the end of the night. He's very naturally good with women, and has a lot of strong nonverbal stuff going on that he doesn't teach; actually one of the things that prompted me to start teaching fundamentals more was running into him and realizing here's a guy who's known as a legendary pickup instructor, but he's not even teaching the stuff that women like most about him. He's been retired for a while raising his daughter in England, but I think he's been missing being busy... seems he's coming out to do some more teaching again.

And, I remember Chase writing about how Mystery finds true love at the end of his book or something and gives up all of this "PUA" stuff or something, and how it's just in there to sell books (as in reality, he ended up divorcing her or something).

That was Neil who found true love at the end of the book - Erik is depicted as basically falling apart from emotional instability / neurosis... ultimately not the most favorable portrayal of him by his close "friend" and student, though falling outs among students and mentors in PUA tends to happen quite regularly anytime the two start spending too much time together. He needed an ending that would make the PUAs look mostly misguided and for himself to have found "the path" in order to have a narrative that the public could get behind and that wouldn't cause any major upset (women could say, "See? That's why you shouldn't do this stuff. Tsk tsk!"). It has the same story arc as Requiem for a Dream or The Beach, almost, except with a happy ending - everything starts off like a dream, then gets horrible (but at the end he finds true love).

Anyway, a few months after The Game was published, Lisa left Neil for a fling with a rockstar.

But Neil bounced back and capitalized on his book's bestseller status and the cult of Style (his PUA persona) that emerged in 2006 and 2007 with a 5-spot $100K a pop PUA program, so I think he made out okay. His recent books have all been bestsellers too, I believe.

Chase

 

[PinotNoir]

Thanks Chase. That's really interesting to hear about the history and your perspective on it.

I assume then that MM will only work with naturals most successfully? And, based on the show, I can definitely not see it working in day game like you said.

It sounds like Neil didn't screen Lisa good enough.... or more likely, he just naturally attracted those "type" of women -- the ones that love being close to the spotlight and not afraid to cheat to get there. I'm not saying that this woman is evil (guys will do that too), but not a good match for marriage.

Would you ever be willing to write an article (or even just a forum post) on the methods out there compared to what you teach? I imagine there might be some type of copyright infringement though, or like I said earlier, it may be bad for business -- I don't know. I just think it'd be really interesting to read. It would look at:

- Mystery Method
- Neil's The Game
- Richard LaRuina
- Simple Pickup

The last 2 I only heard about here on the forums recently. The first 2 I've only heard about vaguely (or watched on TV).

It would simply be comparing GC with these other methods.

I can understand if you don't want or can't do it though, and it's not a big deal. Mainly, I'm just curious. I've never seen anyone really compare the methods out there. I think it's because (a) you can't really be biased, (b) you don't want to start a flame war between different methods out there, and (c) everyone has at least something good or agree with so there's the fear of readers leaving or something. I'm just surprised that I've never read an article from any PUA (or non-PUA) comparing methods.

It doesn't truly matter, as PUA sites are meant to teach how to get better with women -- not to compare and out-do other sites. But, at the same time, it may be good to learn the flaws of X method and the good parts of Y method, etc. just like when learning anything else (like comparing this mathematical approach by Leibniz with this other one by Newton).

 

[Chase]

I can understand if you don't want or can't do it though, and it's not a big deal. Mainly, I'm just curious. I've never seen anyone really compare the methods out there. I think it's because (a) you can't really be biased, (b) you don't want to start a flame war between different methods out there, and (c) everyone has at least something good or agree with so there's the fear of readers leaving or something. I'm just surprised that I've never read an article from any PUA (or non-PUA) comparing methods.

Yeah, the concern there is that I couldn't give a remotely unbiased OR informed opinion. I've had friends who ran MM (my natural pal; my wingman in D.C. back in 2006), but haven't used it myself. Neil and Richard so far as I understand it both primarily use/teach somewhat customized versions of MM; Simple Pickup I know is popular on YouTube but aside from that I'm not sure what style they run (I thought I heard they do a variation of MM as well, but can't be sure).

The main problem's the lack of experience running other styles... it's easy to talk out of your ass when you start making sweeping statements about some other method you've never run before, or hardly did so. There used to be all kinds of flame wars on mASF between different schools of PUA all claiming their own supremacy over the others. It's ultimately kind of silly; my opinion is, so long as you handle your fundamentals, and you've got something you're comfortable using that gets you from hello to the bedroom without too much extra work, you're going to get laid, and probably with girls you like. So if one guy just wants to riff and talk about whatever comes to mind, and another guy wants to run a sequence of scripted lines and routines, if both of those guys end up bedding girls they find attractive it's all kind of the same in the end.

Chase

 

[Rage]

Forgive me if I’m making this post longer than it needs to be or if I’m asking something that perhaps shouldn’t be discussed on this forum.

I read “The Game” by Neil Strauss 5 years ago; was 14 years old and always knew I wanted to be some sort of player/sleep with a ton of girls when I grew up. I was really fascinated by “The Game” and that something like this could be possible. After reading the book, I read a lot more from different pua’s and material discussed in “The Game”, studied more about how to really improve skill with women, and throughout the years learned a great deal. I got to apply many new things and really broaden my perspective throughout the years as to what seduction truly is (I’m 19 now).

I’ve really been curious (in the past couple of years) as to how much of “The Game” was a planned gig to bring the seduction community into the spotlight and create a profitable new life coaching business of training pick up artists (getting to train, say 10 guys, on how to talk to girls; each guy eagerly giving up a few grand to learn this “secret dark art”).

In regards to the degree in which “The Game” was a planned gig, I’ve also wondered to what degree the others in the PUA industry knew about the book, and how they would profit from it, from beforehand (a book that would net them all a fair bit of business and publicity; Strauss sheds various PUA’s in the book in a negative or positive light, but all publicity is good publicity and works for them similarly to how a formulated tabloid story of x celebrity couple madeup argument or random insignificant scandal would work).

Perhaps a great deal of what went on with this book or behind the scenes of this book was unethically and cleverly crafted; I’m not outraged or sternly critical here, more just fascinated by it all (because I think quite to some extent Strauss concocted a great bit of this; and I don’t mean made up information, I mean planned how to make a book that would sell and create a marketable seduction community of which he could profit from for years and years of newly converted AFC pua’s) which I feel, disregarding possible ethical questions, is all rather brilliant in my opinion.

Perhaps Chase or one of the others knows the answer to this or could expand on this (how much "The Game" and it's future/legacy were planned; how much the others were in on it, etc.) ; and again forgive me if this is something that maybe shouldn’t be being discussed here.

-Gem

 

[Chase]

Gem-

Perhaps Chase or one of the others knows the answer to this or could expand on this (how much "The Game" and it's future/legacy were planned; how much the others were in on it, etc.) ; and again forgive me if this is something that maybe shouldn’t be being discussed here.

-Gem

I don't know Neil personally, and only met Erik the one time briefly, but I've never seen or heard anything that would lead me to believe there was any kind of "master plan" going on. Much of the seduction community was pretty upset when Neil came out with his book, actually... while it made fortunes for a few guys (Neil, Erik, Owen/TylerDurden from RSD, etc.), mostly it just opened up a semi-private men's club to public pillorying, plus an influx of new and clueless members. Other guys mentioned in the book - Ross Jeffries, Tynan/Herbal, Zan - don't seem to have profited off it at all.

Another thing to bear in mind is that the events of The Game happened over 4 years, not 2 as the book states/chronologizes. Neil compressed a lot of things to make it more of a meteoric rise to greatness, instead of the slower climb it was. If he had a back room deal going on with various guys for 4 years, that was quite some preparation!

I think it's just the case that he got into PUA, got decent at it, and realized he could write a pretty epic bestseller about it. He did a lot of things after meeting Lisa Leveridge that communicated "I am done with picking up, forever" - he broke up with all his other girlfriends, he talked Jay into removing his archive and post history from mASF, and he came out with a book on it with a fairytale ending.

Basically, from what I can tell, he just met a girl that was better than what he was usually getting, said to himself, "I've found the one for me!" and then went all in on that relationship and cut the cord with PUA and wrapped it up with a "I dabbled in this for years, but I learned my lesson and found the love of my life" moral at the end, probably as much to show her that he'd cleaned up his act for her as anything else.

That happens - I came pretty close to doing the same thing myself in 2009 when I was off-and-on with a long-term girlfriend and thought I'd never find anyone to replace her. I was ready to hang it up, and even 20,000 words into a book that was partly about us, and partly about my time in PUA and why I'd needed to do it and why I couldn't be monogamous to her before but was ready to be now. Until you reach absolute abundance - which I was a little over a year from achieving at the time - the right woman can do strange things with your head.

Chase

 

[PinotNoir]

Yeah, that sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory to me. Sometimes conspiracy theories can be rooted in facts, but usually it's rooted in emotions and in some other agenda (e.g., make people bitter towards PUA and feel tricked or to boost sells and display the guy as a masterful genius). The problem with conspiracy theories is usually always this: No one has 100% evidence supporting or discrediting it.

It's an interesting narrative though and would make a good read whether it's fiction or nonfiction.

 

[Rage]

I thought that Neil’s history and familiarity with Hollywood, and writing/publishing/making publicity/getting a story read, etc. might have helped him really make his book sell (and possibly posed the question of whether any of it had been carefully premeditated or not).

Honestly, I’m guilty of at times craving a hidden story (Girlschase is an alternative to conventional dating; typically most of the guys on here are at least open to other truths/possibilities/valid ideas being out there), or concealed truth or conspiracy in places where the truth maybe isn’t as captivatingly intricate. I think people are often not told the real truth but then, in conjunction with this, the real truth often maybe isn’t as exciting or dramatic.

Regarding this topic, now that I think more about it, I remember it being discussed somewhere (I think it was either here or Aaronsleazy’s blog that I had read about this) that while “The Game” was bestselling and quite a successful book; Neil was the only one out of the community to make any significant amount of profit from it. Others discussed perhaps got a little more business from new readers “joining the PUA scene” and signing up for bootcamps, but Neil was the only one who made a lot of money off the whole thing, and that was made from the book and its gripping narrative (not from bootcamps or products or whatever).

That happens - I came pretty close to doing the same thing myself in 2009 when I was off-and-on with a long-term girlfriend and thought I'd never find anyone to replace her. I was ready to hang it up, and even 20,000 words into a book that was partly about us, and partly about my time in PUA and why I'd needed to do it and why I couldn't be monogamous to her before but was ready to be now. Until you reach absolute abundance - which I was a little over a year from achieving at the time - the right woman can do strange things with your head.

It’s really interesting Chase that you almost went down that route. Maybe in an alternate universe somewhere out there, you’re the brilliant best-selling author of “The Game” and Strauss is the young, enigmatic founder of Girlschase