Make "sex rule" not sound like an ultimatum?

[PinotNoir]

Hey guys, not sure whether to put this in the Beginners or Relationships section....

This is a hypothetical question that I was thinking about the other day. I have a new rule in my life where I will not commit to a relationship unless we have had sex. Chase's material always says this, and it's something that I've learned through personal experience. So after seeing the shortcomings of non-sex relationships, I made it a new rule of mine for 2014.

The question I have is about when women bring up a relationship. This is the scenario that I think of in my head:

Her: "Are we in a relationship?"
Me: "Well.... not really. I do like you a lot, but I have a simple rule that I follow for relationships now."
Her: "What's that?"
Me: "I won't commit to an exclusive relationship unless me and a woman have been intimate together."

If she asks why, I may go into the "friendzone" thoughts or just leave it vague and say "just from past experience."

The problem I see with this is that it sounds like an ultimatum -- which I guess it is technically. And if she does agree to sex, then she may feel that I indirectly forced her, tricked her, or manipulated her. I'm not sure how to fix that. (And of course, if she says that will never happen before commitment, then sayounara.)

Fortunately, if we're having sex within the first few days, which I will always be pushing for anyway, then this shouldn't be a problem. It would only be a problem with "crazy" girls that want a relationship after just 2-3 dates (without sex).

Still, if you're unable to have sex with a girl until 4 weeks of seeing each other and she's really into and/or has slotted you in the "boyfriend role" instead of the "lover role," this scenario may arise, and I'm wondering the best way to handle it.

I know that I should prevent this at all costs by moving fast and being a sexy/sexual man. But if it does happen, what's the best way to handle it?

Thanks

 

[luego]

Are you perhaps running your interactions too romantically/bf-style (sorry, I don't have time atm to read through the LR's/etc). I'd be amazed to have a girl ask me if we're "in a relationship" if we haven't been physical yet.

She's skipping steps. I'd either call her out on it (playfully) if I didn't want those steps skipped, or roll with it if I was fine with moving towards the BF role. And even the latter option is probably a bad move.

 

[Franco]

Pinot,

I think you're referring to a scenario that almost never happens.

As a matter of fact, the few times that I have seen it happen were when a young, high school guy started seeing a young, religious, high school girl. The high school girl would be willing to enter a "relationship" with the guy for the time being because she still has faith in the "sex after marriage" social stigma, but she (and most other girls) quickly lose(s) that after high school when she's around a lot more sexually aggressive men who fill her with lust and desire.

Remember, a girl doesn't really begin chasing you until you've taken her to bed, so the likelihood that she would ask you to be in a relationship without having been intimate with you is radically low. I would say it's low enough to the point where it's basically negligible, and you shouldn't ever rely on it happening, especially if you're dating women who are 21 or older.

If I were to meet a girl like this, I would simply push for sex with extreme persistence within three (to possibly five max) dates. If I didn't get it, and I knew she was willing to see me again, then I would start to go aloof on her. This lets her know that you aren't going to play this chasing game because you have other women of the same quality who are available and are willing to give up sex to you. If she really likes you, she'll likely try to get you to chase for a bit, and then she'll turn around and chase YOU and set up a meet with you thinking that she'll need to give you what you want or risk losing you permanently.

Of course, at this point, I'm extremely confident in my ability to get a girl to sleep with me before this happens. I have a very high level of empathy as well as a well-blended mix of assertiveness and aggressiveness that usually makes girls eventually melt in the bedroom.

- Franco

 

[Chase]

Pinot-

Luego and Franco already talked about why you might be seeing this, and how you want to adjust your approach if you are.

Since this is hypothetical though... if you're not hanging around with girls for a long time you haven't slept with (and if you're regularly meeting new women, I don't see why you would be), I doubt you'll ever see this. I never have, but then again, I axe girls pretty quick if we don't get together these days. Even back when I didn't drop unproductive leads as fast though, I never encountered this.

If you DO encounter it, rather than worry about what you'll say, worry about how you got there; it means you've been being an early boyfriend and need to dial this way back (you're actually making it a lot less likely you end up in bed with a girl than you are if you DON'T do this). See this article: The Early Boyfriend: Why It's a Bad Idea.

And if it ever does come up, just laugh at the girl, then say, "No. We haven't had sex. Duh! You're my friend," and then move on in the conversation.

Chase

 

[PinotNoir]

Thanks very much guys for the insights. In retrospect, it was probably a silly question. Since I was a kid, I've always been a big daydreamer, and weird scenarios like this have just always cropped up in my head.

At least now I know that, if it does occur, it's a huge red flag in my process, and I will know how to better handle it (thanks to you guys' suggestions).

Some of the places I frequent do have young girls (i.e., 18-21), and I do live in a big religious state, so I guess that's why the thought occurred to me. But at my age and present knowledge/experience, it shouldn't be a problem, and especially since I prefer girls my age or older. (I do wonder if it would be a problem for an extremely wealthy individual with high status that gets slotted as a provider? Still, not something I have to personally worry about though. And even then, it would be a problem with his process.)

Thanks again

 

[student94]

So a lot of these posts detail how to avoid the scenario you're dreading. If you're in the position already, however, it's tougher to get out because of bad precedent. The thing is that you have told her (by not becoming intimate with her) that its ok if you guys are just friends, or what chase calls an early boyfriend. It doesn't really matter what you say because in the end, she will read your lack of action (or lack of success) as a green light to be content with the way things are--no sex.

You have to reverse this precedent. This is difficult to do, but it can be done and Chase has a good article on it. But basically, you have to communicate to her through action that your wants and needs are not being met and that as much as you like her, ultimately the relationship will fail because your needs are not being met. If you frame it in a non-ultimatum way, namely that you're unable to settle for non-sexual relationships in general (you can't help yourself), you might have a shot.

 

[PinotNoir]

Hey DS and s94,

Thanks guys for the replies. I always read replies thoroughly, no matter if they're from Chase or a new guy, but just forgot to reply here.

It sounds like you are approaching the entire dating scenario from a Frame which tells women that you're looking for a girlfriend; going on extended/multiple "dates," paying for drinks for them, talking about romantic stuff (which you can get away with at higher levels), never telling sex stories, etc.

True, and I think this is a "ghost" of my past self leaking into my worries of the present/future. On top of the above, I'd also put moving fast, which has changed my life dramatically (even if not obvious with my poor FRs). I move a lot faster with women than I used to, and it usually cuts to the point quickly.

If you frame it in a non-ultimatum way, namely that you're unable to settle for non-sexual relationships in general (you can't help yourself), you might have a shot.

Good point, like an indirect/subtle way to put it. For example, she asks about my friend Suzie (fictional), and I frame, "Suzie is a friend of mine. I think she wants more, but was never a physical girl, so that was just a turn off."

Again, guys, just hypothetical Over-thinking, over-analyzing. I made a lot of new "rules" for myself going into 2014, and as with any new life changes, I thought of some "kinks" that really shouldn't be an issue. I'm glad I posted this though, as it just proves that I need to be meeting/dating more women (and moving fast!) and getting that "ghost" of my past self out of my mind, and I got a lot of great replies and things to think about and do. (I also re-read Chase's Early Boyfriend article again that he replied with.)

Thanks,
-PN

 

[Thinkingenigma]

I'm actually in this scenario right now with a girl back home. She's a virgin, and has said that she wanted to save her first kiss for the altar (that didn't happen, but whatever). Originally, I wasn't intimate with her because I was leaving soon and I didn't want to take her virginity without being able to give her proper aftercare, but now I'm in a strange position where I have tons of options, but she doesn't (she's a commuter who lives in the middle of nowhere, and she's very shy, so I'm one of the only guys she knows).

Basically, when I get back, I don't want her to feel like she's being pressured to the point of going to the school administration like the last girl I tried to get intimate with at my school, but at the same time, I feel like just dropping her would absolutely devastate her. Besides, I really like her and would prefer to keep her around if possible. We aren't technically dating at the moment (thank god. LA would suck if that were the case. Long distance is a bitch), but the expectation for us to pick up where we left off is definitely there.

I'm honestly not sure how to handle it. It's not something that I'm going to have to deal with for a few months, but I would like to be prepared for it.

 

[Chase]

TE-

I'm actually in this scenario right now with a girl back home. She's a virgin, and has said that she wanted to save her first kiss for the altar (that didn't happen, but whatever). Originally, I wasn't intimate with her because I was leaving soon and I didn't want to take her virginity without being able to give her proper aftercare, but now I'm in a strange position where I have tons of options, but she doesn't (she's a commuter who lives in the middle of nowhere, and she's very shy, so I'm one of the only guys she knows).

Basically, when I get back, I don't want her to feel like she's being pressured to the point of going to the school administration like the last girl I tried to get intimate with at my school, but at the same time, I feel like just dropping her would absolutely devastate her. Besides, I really like her and would prefer to keep her around if possible. We aren't technically dating at the moment (thank god. LA would suck if that were the case. Long distance is a bitch), but the expectation for us to pick up where we left off is definitely there.

I'm honestly not sure how to handle it. It's not something that I'm going to have to deal with for a few months, but I would like to be prepared for it.

There's little that weighs on your heart quite like sleeping with a really inexperienced girl who has dreamy expectations of sex and what it means in terms of a relationship (love, commitment, marriage, etc.). You learn not to touch girls like this after a while if you want a clear conscience; and, you might think to yourself, "Oh, she seems nice, and cute, and conservative - maybe a great girlfriend!", but when she's living in the middle of nowhere, highly conservative, and you are both her only real option and she's crazy about you, and the reverse is not true for you, sex WILL turn her into a raving commitment fanatic toward you, and freak you out / scare you off. You're then left with the knowledge that you probably just took one very hopeful girl and turned her into a very hurt, confused, jaded girl... not a good feeling.

With all the details on this girl you have here, I'd advise you to just let her down gently, and turn your focus to other women. Walking away from this girl probably has very little impact for you, but you sleeping with her is going to have tremendous impact for her... and you then not giving her the fairy tale she's imagining after sex once you do is going to have an even more tremendous impact for her.

Respect what she's looking for - someone super serious - and leave her free to find him. She'll be sad but better off; you'll have avoided always knowing you screwed up some girl's perceptions of men more or less forever. Take it from a guy who's not followed this advice in almost the exact same situation; there're not many things I regret, but sleeping with a girl like this and leaving her high and dry afterwards when she thought she was walking into a fairy tale is one of them.

Chase

 

[Thinkingenigma]

TE-

I'm actually in this scenario right now with a girl back home. She's a virgin, and has said that she wanted to save her first kiss for the altar (that didn't happen, but whatever). Originally, I wasn't intimate with her because I was leaving soon and I didn't want to take her virginity without being able to give her proper aftercare, but now I'm in a strange position where I have tons of options, but she doesn't (she's a commuter who lives in the middle of nowhere, and she's very shy, so I'm one of the only guys she knows).

Basically, when I get back, I don't want her to feel like she's being pressured to the point of going to the school administration like the last girl I tried to get intimate with at my school, but at the same time, I feel like just dropping her would absolutely devastate her. Besides, I really like her and would prefer to keep her around if possible. We aren't technically dating at the moment (thank god. LA would suck if that were the case. Long distance is a bitch), but the expectation for us to pick up where we left off is definitely there.

I'm honestly not sure how to handle it. It's not something that I'm going to have to deal with for a few months, but I would like to be prepared for it.

There's little that weighs on your heart quite like sleeping with a really inexperienced girl who has dreamy expectations of sex and what it means in terms of a relationship (love, commitment, marriage, etc.). You learn not to touch girls like this after a while if you want a clear conscience; and, you might think to yourself, "Oh, she seems nice, and cute, and conservative - maybe a great girlfriend!", but when she's living in the middle of nowhere, highly conservative, and you are both her only real option and she's crazy about you, and the reverse is not true for you, sex WILL turn her into a raving commitment fanatic toward you, and freak you out / scare you off. You're then left with the knowledge that you probably just took one very hopeful girl and turned her into a very hurt, confused, jaded girl... not a good feeling.

With all the details on this girl you have here, I'd advise you to just let her down gently, and turn your focus to other women. Walking away from this girl probably has very little impact for you, but you sleeping with her is going to have tremendous impact for her... and you then not giving her the fairy tale she's imagining after sex once you do is going to have an even more tremendous impact for her.

Respect what she's looking for - someone super serious - and leave her free to find him. She'll be sad but better off; you'll have avoided always knowing you screwed up some girl's perceptions of men more or less forever. Take it from a guy who's not followed this advice in almost the exact same situation; there're not many things I regret, but sleeping with a girl like this and leaving her high and dry afterwards when she thought she was walking into a fairy tale is one of them.

Chase

Thanks Chase, I kind of knew that that's what I needed to do, but I needed to hear someone say it. Do you think I should end it while we're still long distance, or should I wait until I can do it in person?