Manly Men?

[Atlas]

Hey guys, long time no see. So, what is a "manly" man? I've been mulling this question over and I'm in a bit of a conundrum. I do a lot of manly things; I workout, I take MMA classes, a lot of my classes in college revolve around manly things such as warfare, etc. yet I don't consider myself all that manly of a guy. I feel as though men have taken a turn for the worse so to speak because lately men seem to be becoming more effeminate. I notice this especially with my friends. I love my friends to death, but they have some habits that seem to be consistent with some women, and as I noticed it in them, I started noticing it in more and more guys around me on campus as well. My friends tend to gossip about a lot of things within the organization I am in here in college is just one example. Another is they tend to get offended a lot at things that just seem stupid and jokes that aren't meant to be taken seriously. My point with this isn't to ridicule my friends, but to ask you guys this one question. What is a manly man to you? I feel as though many men today aren't as masculine as they should be or were in the past and I'm curious of what everyone else thinks of this.

-Atlas

 

[Bboy100]

I could answer this question based on empirical research. But does the answer really matter? Going out of your way to adhere to a socially constructed definition of masculinity will not bring you fulfillment and happiness in life. It would make you a sheep. A follower. This is gonna sound cliché, but its so true: Do you. Don't worry about what society tells you you need to be. Because ultimately, society's definition of masculinity is very fluid (changes over time), isn't very grounded (no good reasons for why the definition is what it is), and ultimately is not meant to help you. It's meant to help those who created it.

And if you think being a "manly man" is how you get girls, you're dead wrong. You get girls by being genuine (expressing who you are and what you're about unapologetically) and by improving yourself as a person (physically, emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc.), not by adhering to some subjective, and ultimately meaningless societal norm.

 

[Fuck This]

I find many of the values espoused in The Art of Manliness closely mirror my own values. It isn't all brawn...

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2014/06/0 ... t-century/

 

[Atlas]

Hey Bboy, I appreciate the thought-provoking answer. I was more concerned with the fundamentals of being a man, like giving more than receiving, being an individual with a lot of integrity, being a "protector and provider"and those types of things. But, I'm going through a time in my life where I'm trying to figure out exactly who I am, so your advice was really helpful regardless. I suppose that trying to put on the façade of being hyper-masculine would just make me less masculine because I would be doing something counter to who I truly am, so you cleared that up for me. Thanks again.

Fuck This, thanks for the link. I've seen this website around before but never really looked into it. I like it a lot after reading a few articles now.

-Atlas

 

[Bboy100]

I was more concerned with the fundamentals of being a man, like giving more than receiving, being an individual with a lot of integrity, being a "protector and provider"and those types of things.

This also falls under the umbrella of what I'm talking about. Although those are admittedly good qualities to have, do not feel like that's something you necessarily must become. Forge your own path. Create your own values and live by them. Don't let anyone else tell you what a "man" and by extension what "you" have to be. You're the only one who makes that decision.

So if you agree that you need to give more than you receive, be an individual with a lot of integrity and be a protector and provider, then fine. Do it. But if that's not what you want out of life, don't let anyone or any institution be in the driver seat of what your identity should look like.

I can't stress this enough... despite what society, or a book you read, or a person you know might have said, there is no objective sets of a qualities that a man must have. The qualities you should try to cultivate and the person you strive to become depends on your innate personality traits, strengths and weaknesses and what you want out of life. Don't try change who you are at your core. It's almost impossible. You should merely try to enhance the traits you already posses.

 

[Hector Papi Castillo]

Masculinity at its heart is aggression and implacability. In other words, attack and defense.

Femininity is nurture and seduce.

All values that are popularly considered masculine can be derived from the values of 'attack' and 'defend,' no matter how grand or poetic.

The conservative and ancient values of masculinity are embedded in our society for a reason - they work. Even those who consider themselves rebels or avant guardes of some nuanced masculinity are still being attackers or defenders. All that is pleasurable as a man relates to this functions.

Hector

 

[sunnygirl]

I could answer this question based on empirical research. But does the answer really matter? Going out of your way to adhere to a socially constructed definition of masculinity will not bring you fulfillment and happiness in life. It would make you a sheep. A follower. This is gonna sound cliché, but its so true: Do you. Don't worry about what society tells you you need to be. Because ultimately, society's definition of masculinity is very fluid (changes over time), isn't very grounded (no good reasons for why the definition is what it is), and ultimately is not meant to help you. It's meant to help those who created it.

And if you think being a "manly man" is how you get girls, you're dead wrong. You get girls by being genuine (expressing who you are and what you're about unapologetically) and by improving yourself as a person (physically, emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc.), not by adhering to some subjective, and ultimately meaningless societal norm.

Wow, this was written a while ago but I couldn't agree more! Some guys are so caught up in being "the most masculine" they lose their genuine character and vibe. I recently had a discussion with my younger brother about this topic, he's in general a very sensitive and emotional person at heart but I noticed that nowadays when he gets upset he'll lash out in anger and appear stoic when he's hurting on the inside, I've emphasized to him that its okay to cry and he shouldn't adhere to some bullshit toxic idea of what being a real man looks like.

I want to expand on this topic, idk if you guys heard of the female versus male gaze but its definitely something worth researching about if your goal is to seduce more women. The reason why many girls are obsessed with becoming the thinnest in the room , getting all dolled up, obsessed with fashion(even though it might not be that appealing to guys to be all skin and bones or high maintenance) is because its less to do with attracting guys and more to do with outcompeting other girls, its more of a status/discipline thing more than anything.

Nowadays with the Hadid sisters trending with their buccal fat removal and rapid weight loss and the influencer Kim Kardashian (blegh, hate to bring her up) going on extreme diets, we want to emulate them as well. There's a trend on Tiktok where the audio is like "my name, my name is Bella Hadid" and girl is literally just body checking and showing off how skinny she is, usually holding like a green latte, then users usually comment "I wish that was me" or "imagine being that perfect" just perpetuating the cycle of validation. Funny enough the validation doesn't come from guys it comes from other girls.

I think its the same thing for guys who want to fit in the Chad like archetype of a super jacked swole guy, and act all tough and shit, most girls just don't care about that kind of stuff, in fact extremely "masculine" guys are kinda a turn off to me. Hell if anything super buff tall guys put me on edge and make me feel more intimidated than attracted if anything.

Anyways Bboy100 is SPOT ON on how ironically wanting to appear to fit into some contrived idea of masculinity which is ever evolving is just herd mentality. Follow your own path

 

[Zoro]

Going out of your way to adhere to a socially constructed definition of masculinity will not bring you fulfillment and happiness in life.

True. But I would argue that there are fundamental natural masculine aspects that are worth understanding and cultivating in oneself.

My preferred sources for this kind of thing is Carl Jung's archetypes. King, Warrior Magician, Lover is a great book for men, on understanding masculinity and how to become a "mature masculine man".

Another source is the ancient Chinese Tao. We've all seen the yin yang symbol. That represents the Tao. Ying and Yan are polarities, and they compliment each other. I love dating feminine women, because this dynamic plays out in such a fulfilling and enjoyable way. When I am masculine (being decisive, holding space, organizing chaos), it allows her to be feminine (being intuitive, emotional, and potent in her beauty), and this creates incredible pleasure, energy, and motivation within us both.

The interesting thing to notice is that within each side of the Tao, there is a dot of the other polarity. Yin has a little yang in it, and Yang a little yin.

If you think of prolific seducers, they have this quality. I think Russell Brand sums it up well. He is masculine and yet feminine. I would definitely say he is more masculine than feminine, but he has a healthy dose of femininity, which creates a powerful combination. Masculinity at its core is useful. Femininity is magnetic, desirable, the reason to have a use in the first place.

Masculinity and femininity are meant to work together, and so developing the potential of both these energies within yourself is beneficial in many ways, I would say it effects everything from your health to your success in life.

Masculinity and Femininity are not social constructs. We do have social constructs around men and women, but the essence of these are found in nature.

Here is an interesting example of Yin and Yang expressing themselves in our bodies:

Men are yang sexually, women are yang emotionally. You'll notice that at these areas we have organs protruding out into the world (penis for ynag male sexuality/breasts for female yang emotions) Men are quick to be aroused and women are quick to be emotional (yang).

Men are yin emotionally and women are yin sexually. Men are slow to become emotional and take time to simmer down from high emotion. Women take time to be aroused and time to simmer down from it. Notice the organs here too. (Yin is receptive, vagina goes inward for female sexual yin, and lack of breasts for male yin emotions)

 

[BrideBeGone]

Another source is the ancient Chinese Tao. We've all seen the yin yang symbol. That represents the Tao. Ying and Yan are polarities, and they compliment each other. I love dating feminine women, because this dynamic plays out in such a fulfilling and enjoyable way. When I am masculine (being decisive, holding space, organizing chaos), it allows her to be feminine (being intuitive, emotional, and potent in her beauty), and this creates incredible pleasure, energy, and motivation within us both.

Hey @Wick , I'm new here (female) and wholeheartedly agree with your entire post, specifically what's bolded.

I very much agree with yin/yang, masclune/feminine polarity, it's how all my relationships went down, including current.

If I may ask though, what did you mean by masculine "organizing chaos"?

I'd never heard that before and curious what it meant.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Zoro]

Yin is pure power, infinite possibilities, and thus chaos.

Yang is order, consciousness, direction.

Yin on it's own is just power with potential.

Yang on it's own is just an idea with no power.

Yang is the part of the universe/god that is conscious and brings direction to the Yin.

Masculine is the human expression of Yang.

I like to think of a relationship as a sailing ship on the ocean. The masculine man is the captain, but the woman is the sea and the wind. A good captain can take that ship to a great place, but only if he really understands the seas and the weather.

In other words, organizing chaos means being able to withstand and even guide the changing emotions of a feminine being, and understand those emotions enough to harness them into love, trust, attraction, arousal, the things that connect the two, for the mutual benefit of the two, that allows them to create something. Usually a new life.

Most people don't think about these things, so they run on autopilot. They're horny and they want kids. That's the real societal conditioning. There is much more possible through the divine union of masculine and feminine. We are in a dark age of spirituality, so these things have been largely lost to us. But we will discover them again. A good path to start is sexual kung fu or tantra.

 

[Police dog]

Hey guys, long time no see. So, what is a "manly" man? I've been mulling this question over and I'm in a bit of a conundrum. I do a lot of manly things; I workout, I take MMA classes, a lot of my classes in college revolve around manly things such as warfare, etc. yet I don't consider myself all that manly of a guy. I feel as though men have taken a turn for the worse so to speak because lately men seem to be becoming more effeminate. I notice this especially with my friends. I love my friends to death, but they have some habits that seem to be consistent with some women, and as I noticed it in them, I started noticing it in more and more guys around me on campus as well. My friends tend to gossip about a lot of things within the organization I am in here in college is just one example. Another is they tend to get offended a lot at things that just seem stupid and jokes that aren't meant to be taken seriously. My point with this isn't to ridicule my friends, but to ask you guys this one question. What is a manly man to you? I feel as though many men today aren't as masculine as they should be or were in the past and I'm curious of what everyone else thinks of this.

-Atlas

Interesting question.
I would say that you kinda in a cargo cult - workouts, mma, warfare, let me guess - you also wear leather jacket, go for buzzcut with bald fade, have some “masculine” tattoo and, assuming you are American, own a gun (or a nice knife if you are from Europe).
Here is the thing:
MMA and other martial arts are not going to make more confident or manly, this is a super common endeavor especially for those who been bullied back in middle/high school, like “hell yeah, now I would have beaten them”. In reality you are just doing HIIT and hugging other sweaty men for a few hours per week. Same goes for stuff like warfare - read Hemingway biography to stop glorifying the war.
So, if you are really enjoying it, sure, keep doing it, but if you want to become “more manly”, I would suggest another route:
1) accept that changes require long time to occur, you are not going to completely transform in a month or even in a year. Get ready for 2-3 years of grinding. This is because you need your brain to develop new neuro links and start using them, and our brain is a lazy bastard, who doesn’t want to spend energy building it, let alone adjusting to using new routes for transmitting neuron signals.
2) drop all those introjections regarding what it means to be manly, because you clearly have shit tone of them in your head. And it will take you time to do so, because our brain hates changes (see above).
3) don’t even look at hyper masculine examples in pop culture like Fight club, Rambo, Green street hooligans (to some extent), etc. Real life is not a movie.
4) essentially what you need is to develop conflict tolerance AND conflict initiative as well as aggression. And down the road you will understand that everything in pick up ultimately also comes down to this in a very interesting way. So let’s talk about this one:
Conflict is not just a fist fight in a dark alley. And aggression is not only about being a rude ready to fight douche bag. Everyday you go about you daily life and interact with the world you exert some aggression, which could be defined as ANY action that modifies the surrounding world: when you merge on highway you act aggressively, when you type message on this forum you act aggressively, any even minuscule change of the world around you is aggression. And you need this to become a part of your personality. Speaking of conflict initiative and tolerance - any form of achieving what you desire at cost of someone else falls into this category - someone did something bad to you: you can beat him or you could sink him in a litigation process - everything works. The problem at the beginning of this transformation is that you will make this a self goal rather than a mediation because it takes time realize some conflicts are simply not worth getting into, however, you must not lie to yourself - are you avoiding certain situations because they indeed are not worth getting into or you are just afraid. But essentially you never let anyone violate your boundaries AND you are happy about violating other peoples boundaries, which the hardest part because defense is usually way easier than offense, being interested in warfare and mma you probably know that already. Yes, this is super unethical and yes it will get you into conflicts, but conflict tolerance is the holy grail you are looking for. No mma classes and military training help you in your goal of becoming a manly if you tolerate shit your boss does to you because you need to pay for rent. This is the general direction you should go. Fortunately, 99% of conflicts in the modern world don’t involve any real physical threat and don’t require using physical force as well. Good luck.