Maximizing chance of a 2nd date during the 1st

[Marty]

I think I have a gap in my mental model of the Girls Chase philosophy.

I believe I've internalized the "discovery" phase: initiating communication with a new woman (approach and opening), with appropriate body language, vocal tonality, posture, style; moving the interaction forward smartly, proposing a date and finalizing it via remote communication; and keeping the focus on the female throughout.

Likewise I realize there is an enormous amount of material on the much later phases: sex positions and technique to maximize female orgasm, which I've experimented with in a relationship context with some modest success; and a whole host of articles on relationship management, which I've largely ignored so far, but might have benefited from in the past, considering that all my relationships have ended in disaster—although any relationship that does not continue until the death of one party, by definition, falls apart sooner or later, so perhaps I should not feel so bad about that.

But I'm missing something in the middle, between these phases. Girls have a habit lately of disappearing on me after the first date—I don't recall suffering from this in my youth, in particular, although I didn't take a proactive, directed approach like now, so perhaps it's down to more data points and keener observation.

FitChick, WillowyCutie, SportyBalt—all put on their very best vanishing act. Only SexySculptress texted me to thank me for the date... and she'd left town by then.

Is there something you can do on the first date that will up the probability of her coming back for more? I mean, it's fun taking a new girl out each time, but it kinda makes it difficult to generate progress if it's always a "one and done". I have of course read the "Flirt and Swoon" article, but that's really about what to do when planning and executing the 2nd date, not how to guarantee it in the first place.

I have a date coming up Saturday morning. I don't necessarily want to try to turn it into a relationship (yet); I'd be delighted to have her in a "secret lover" type of role and just see how things go. If she then wants to get serious, and I like her, then we shall see.

But either way, it'd be so nice to think I might see her more than just the once!

Thanks, friends

-Marty

 

[Franco]

Marty,

Is there something you can do on the first date that will up the probability of her coming back for more?

Yes, and that one thing you can do is to take her to bed.

You should never go on a date with the intention of having to take a girl on a second date. If your intention is to have a second date from the get-go, then you are going to be fighting an uphill battle that usually results in you being the one rolling back down the hill and falling flat on your face. On every date, you should assume that your interaction is going to lead to heading back to your/her place and end up in consummation. If you aren't thinking this way, then you need to correct your model for how to run your dates. I'll explain a bit more.

Girls often won't give men much time to sweep them off of their feet. If there is any point in a seduction (from the moment you approach her to the moment you have sex with her) that it feels like the "magic" is gone and things become a chore or routine, then your chances of anything happening with that girl pretty much go down the drain. This is one of the reasons why you want to bed women as swiftly as possible: you want to sweep her off of her feet rather than send her into a boring rotation of dates that, through life experience, has told her often lead to nowhere and waste her time.

Now, I know we've mentioned Date Compression several times, and as a matter of fact, I am probably one of the most advanced (if not THE most) advanced practitioners of Date Compression on this entire board. I've bedded tons of women on second, third, fourth, and (once) even fifth dates. But you know what was common among all of these different women that I bedded on later dates? My intention was to bed them on the FIRST date. Your first reaction to this might be, "So? You didn't do it and you still ended up with more dates. So what gives?" Well, I'll tell you. The difference was that every single girl I took to bed on dates later than the first could sense that I was a sexy man who would take action the moment they agreed to go home with me. On every single first date, I maintained an extremely sexy vibe (sometimes with sexual banter), and always invited the girl home. And when she declined? I persisted.

A girl needs to feel like the ONLY reason you two didn't end up making passionate love together after the first date is that she was the one having to hold herself back from saying, "Yes, take my body!" because she wants to keep you around so that she CAN see you again. If she didn't feel like sex was imminent and that you were a man who was ready to take her then and there, then she's going to have a lot of time to herself between this date and the next to say, "well, he was nice, but... meh." INSTEAD, you want a girl thinking, "wow, that guy was so sexy... I wonder what would have happened had I accepted his offer to go home with him?! I almost did! I hope I didn't make a mistake by saying 'no' to him!"

...and then of course, the next time you ask her on a date a few days later, she'll gladly accept and feel like she made the right decision. The only difference is, she'll be much more inclined to follow your lead the next time around.

- Franco

 

[Nova]

^franco's the man, not much to add to that!

first dates i think should be straightforward and simple with the purpose of getting a girl primed for sexy time. i would wager your losing all these girls because your not biting the bullet and just asking them back to yours on the first date, its tempting after a date has gone really well to sit back, cards to chest and play it cool until round two - but not efficient if you ask me! if you've done everything right during the first date you'll be surprised to see how many girls say yes to going back with you, this all adds to your frame as the lover, whereas that frame lessens with each date thereafter. best to ask her back during a high point and make sure your casual about it.

but, of course sometimes things don't go to plan and you end up with date number two. my advice, treat it like the first and try again. or, as i prefer to do drop her a text with the date arranged at your place, making things more convenient for you, this all depends on how well date 1 went.

why wont your girls say yes to date number 2? who knows, there are loads of possibilities - the most important thing though is that you don't stress it because asking girls out for a second date shouldn't be your game plan anyway. try asking girls back with you on the first date and let us know the results! i foresee future LR's from marty!!

 

[Marty]

Okay, thanks Franco, thanks Nova, very encouraging!

you want to sweep her off of her feet rather than send her into a boring rotation of dates that, through life experience, has told her often lead to nowhere and waste her time.

You mean a girl starts to get bored with conversation quicker than a man does? That's an insight I hadn't really appreciated, I always thought girls quite liked chatting, but this was based on lazy stereotypes rather than the sort of hard-hitting data that you and Chase have collected on your forays into the female world

On every single first date, I maintained an extremely sexy vibe (sometimes with sexual banter), and always invited the girl home.

Great plan. "Invited" sounds awfully polite compared with the type of assertiveness I've read about in the field reports of some of our most successful colleagues here. Would you counsel actually making it a polite invitation, for instance "Would you like to come to my home now?", or more hard-hitting like "Let's jump in my car and head back to my home real quick"?

I remember what you wrote in my last field report, Franco, about me having essentially a 90-minute window to get something done or risk appearing non-action-oriented. I'm meeting this girl at 11, so I thought around noon I'd see things taking this sort of a turn:

• Girl: So you said you were raised in England? Isn't that all quaint little old houses and stuff everywhere?
  
  Marty: Yes, actually I have a book at my home called The Most Beautiful Villages of England which has hundreds of pages of pictures just like that. Would you like to see it?
  
  Girl: Sure, that'd be great!
  
  Marty: Okay, why don't I just grab the check real quick and then let's head over to my home to look at it, and have a cup of tea too if you like. It's not far.
  
  Girl: Sounds good.

Am I thinking along the right lines?

Thanks!

-Marty

 

[Franco]

Marty,

Marty: Okay, why don't I just grab the check real quick and then let's head over to my home to look at it, and have a cup of tea too if you like. It's not far.

Girl: Sounds good.

Am I thinking along the right lines?

Sure, although I highlighted the "sounds good" in bold because that would be the best case scenario of her not giving you any resistance to going home with you. Inviting a girl over to your place is the part where you should definitely expect resistance (and these days, when a girl doesn't object, I almost always assume it's a done deal that we're sleeping together). So instead of "Sounds Good," your conversation might end up more like:

• Marty: Okay, why don't I just grab the check real quick and then let's head over to my home to look at it, and have a cup of tea too if you like. It's not far.
  
  Girl: *Pauses for a second* ...well, I actually have some things I need to get done.
  
  Marty: What could POSSIBLY be more important that seeing beautiful images of England? *Sly smile* Come on, it will only take a minute!
  
  ----- You might get her to agree here... if you don't, the good ol' "yes" ladder can be quite effective:
  
  Girl: *Laughs* Haha! True... but I don't know. I have work tomorrow morning!
  
  Marty: Look, are you having a good time tonight?
  
  Girl: ...yes.
  
  Marty: You would love to continue having a good time, right?
  
  Girl: Well, yes.
  
  Marty: And you said yourself that you have to work tomorrow morning, not tonight, right?
  
  Girl: *Laughs* ...yes.
  
  Marty: Then let's spend a little more time enjoying something we have in common together! Come on.
  
  Girl: Haha, okay!

And... voila. =)

- Franco

 

[PinotNoir]

I love this thread. I think this just naturally follows when progressing:

1) Fundamentals
2) Approach Anxiety
3) Ask tons of women out
4) Get a bunch of 1st dates (mainly getting great at texting)
5) Get great at rapport/repartee
6) ???

Based on all of these replies (and replies to Marty's recent FR), I'm realizing that Step 6 is like Step 2 in the sense that it's another big hurdle. I need to push for sex (or at least going back to a seduction location) within 90 min. I have to do it. Always. Even if the date feels great and comfortable and I feel like "Yeah, I got a 2nd date in the bag," I have to do it, because experience is showing me more and more the same results of no sex or no 2nd date.

Thanks for posting this.

 

[Marty]

I love this thread.

Swell

(mainly getting great at texting)

PN, are you sure about this? Most of the "senior" folks advise keeping texting to a minimum.

I need to push for sex (or at least going back to a seduction location) within 90 min. I have to do it. Always. Even if the date feels great and comfortable and I feel like "Yeah, I got a 2nd date in the bag," I have to do it, because experience is showing me more and more the same results of no sex or no 2nd date.

I am reading that from the advice I have been receiving, too. Trouble is, my "data points" occasionally don't seem to support it... most worryingly, this one where I did try to isolate after kissing, failed, was told "Call me" by one of the most luscious girls I've ever seen, and proceeded never to hear from her again. Ever.

Having said that, I do take the advice of the leadership here on trust, because they have the results and I don't. What I'm really saying is that I need to overcome my discomfort at doing what only seems risky because I don't know any better.

 

[PinotNoir]

(mainly getting great at texting)

PN, are you sure about this? Most of the "senior" folks advise keeping texting to a minimum.

That's actually what I mean by being great at texting: simple and direct, moving fast to set up the date, and NOT getting worried/upset if a girl doesn't text you right away (probably the biggest hurdle) and NOT getting concerned about building rapport through text. It's actually harder to get simpler. I meant "great" as the opposite of what most guys mean Of course, I've learned to text more and ask/answer more questions if the initial interaction was very shallow/quick (i.e., little connection made) like when you're both crunched for time.

I am reading that from the advice I have been receiving, too. Trouble is, my "data points" occasionally don't seem to support it... most worryingly, this one where I did try to isolate after kissing, failed, was told "Call me" by one of the most luscious girls I've ever seen, and proceeded never to hear from her again. Ever.

Having said that, I do take the advice of the leadership here on trust, because they have the results and I don't. What I'm really saying is that I need to overcome my discomfort at doing what only seems risky because I don't know any better.

I'm with you on just trusting the material and more experienced members.... Of course, every girl/situation is a little different though, so nothing is ever black&white. I'm assuming that with more experience I'll be able to read key signs more easily to be able to adapt/adjust/etc. Maybe you figure out that she's more reserved/inexperienced early on, and since you've been in that situation a lot, you're then able to adjust for what you'll need to say/do, and there still will be a few girls that are a "no" no matter what you say/do. But, in order to make a fair assessment, you have to have a high amount of data points. Maybe you have enough? But, I don't think I do. I need like 50 girls that I need to try not kissing on the 1st date, and then 50 girls that I try pushing to sex back at my place. Haha. But... there's so many women. I definitely do NOT think I have an "abundance mentality" yet, but I do have more of a carefree mentality than I used to have. If a girl feels "different" to me and/or I'm getting bored of trying Chase's material, then I may try something different just to learn and for experience. I just know that a lot of my past didn't work, so that's why I follow Chase's/Franco's advice now (or at least am trying to as much as possible, but I still fuck up because I'm learning). But, you should never follow anyone blindly, no matter who they are. So, you have to try different ways and get the experience, and just remember that there are a BUNCH of gorgeous-soul-mate-amazing-personality-whatever women that you can try it on Whenever I broke up with a girl in the past, I'd be like, "Ah, she was so amazing I'll never find another girl like that again.... with her looks.... her personality...." Maybe this took 6 months, but then I would finally find a new girl that made me completely forget the last girl.

So, in short, I try not to stress too much about "messing up" anymore, as I just try and remind myself that there will be plenty of other women to try to improve on next time (I'm still hard on myself and still post about it though to learn/improve.) FitChick was just one of many. If you run across another girl like FitChick again, just try something different. Try moving faster or slower. Try starting the date at your place or starting it somewhere else. There are PLENTY of beautiful women like FitChick -- I'm sure -- and you'll get plenty of more opportunities to have some amazing sex

 

[Marty]

So, in short, I try not to stress too much about "messing up" anymore, as I just try and remind myself that there will be plenty of other women to try to improve on next time

That's very true, and I'm not nervous about the one coming up Saturday; although I want to treat her as I would any other girl, though, there are some peculiarities that might pose an obstacle for me.

I wrote a few weeks back about SportyBalt, an ethnic Russian from Latvia whom I met in a park. She had a history of impressive professional success since moving to the States. The date was a spectacular failure, although it seemed fine until the end. She was actually saying throughout the evening that she was getting old and needed to change up her life and so forth (she's only 31, for fuck's sake) and although she was trying to smooth it over as not a big deal, I could tell she was quite insecure about it. I think that's why when I pushed clumsily for a k-close in a rather incongruent manner, she took it as a lack of respect and hit the roof.

Now, while the lady I'm meeting Saturday is nothing like as neurotic as that, there are some parallels that do cause me concern about process, when I come to think about it. She's also around 30-31, very tall, athletic; as far as I can tell she's a high-flyer, having worked for a top PR agency for a couple years before going into a senior corporate role. She also came out with a downright weird remark when I asked her out. She said: "This never happens to me!" I cannot imagine what the fuck she was talking about; she can't mean that men never ask her out, as she's really pretty. Maybe she means that blond men never ask her out, or men nearly as tall as her—I'm above average although not particularly tall (6'0") and I think she had an inch or so on me, which is pretty good for a girl. Or men she'd actually date don't ask her out, perhaps; doubtful. False modesty, maybe. Anyway, that kinda caused me to raise an eyebrow.

She did an odd thing with the date arrangements too. I texted her right after the approach and got an almost immediate—and upbeat—response. I then texted again same day to ask the best time to meet, and she didn't reply. I'd given up, but as a matter of routine I texted again a couple weeks later, saying "sorry, I've been away" and she came back instantly with "OMG I totally forgot!!" and proceeded to agree to a coffee date. WTF?

I'd definitely date her though. She's hot.

So I'll go into it with the goal of finding out as much as possible about what makes her tick, but my expectation of matching up to whatever she's looking for is close to nil.

 

[PinotNoir]

She said: "This never happens to me!" I cannot imagine what the fuck she was talking about; she can't mean that men never ask her out, as she's really pretty. Maybe she means that blond men never ask her out, or men nearly as tall as her—I'm above average although not particularly tall (6'0") and I think she had an inch or so on me, which is pretty good for a girl. Or men she'd actually date don't ask her out, perhaps; doubtful. False modesty, maybe. Anyway, that kinda caused me to raise an eyebrow.

I have this happen to me too, like with my FR: Running in the park. And, she was a good looking girl... slim, Filipino, etc. In retrospect, I regret not pursuing that further, but at the time, I didn't know that getting back together with my ex-girlfriend would ultimately re-end in December (dumb, I know, but I still had feelings for her, so I wanted to give it a 2nd chance).

Personally, I take the response to mean, "I very rarely have men approach me sober during the day and ask me on a date" -- which most likely is true. When I deep-dived the girl above, her past boyfriends were mostly through work or work-related activities.

Now, on the other hand, I approached an Asian girl at the mall last week, and she acted very much like it happens all of the time and politely declined my offer for a date. So, I don't know; either she's good at acting unimpressed or she really has had a lot of guys ask her out at the mall before, but I think most women do not get asked out during the day from a cold approach, even the hottest of the hottest. It's usually from work, social circle, bars/clubs at night, internet, etc.

She did an odd thing with the date arrangements too. I texted her right after the approach and got an almost immediate—and upbeat—response. I then texted again same day to ask the best time to meet, and she didn't reply. I'd given up, but as a matter of routine I texted again a couple weeks later, saying "sorry, I've been away" and she came back instantly with "OMG I totally forgot!!" and proceeded to agree to a coffee date. WTF?

She sounds like she actually is busy, based on her résumé above. It also sounds like you played this perfectly though.

So I'll go into it with the goal of finding out as much as possible about what makes her tick, but my expectation of matching up to whatever she's looking for is close to nil.

What she's looking for is a sexual beast to sweep her off her feet, and you're perfect

 

[Marty]

She sounds like she actually is busy, based on her résumé above. It also sounds like you played this perfectly though.

What she's looking for is a sexual beast to sweep her off her feet, and you're perfect

Oh okay. I hadn't thought of that, actually. I have so much free time these days, I sometimes forget what it was like when I was setting in out my career.

So maybe my best bet is to deep-dive her for a bit, get her to confirm all of the above, and then say something like: "It sounds in general as if you don't have a lot of time." And then proceed to imply, subtly or otherwise, that I'd be a good candidate to screw her senseless periodically, and then get out of her hair promptly each time, so she can press on with her work. Key is to give the impression I'm not gonna weigh her down.

I believe a couple others on this forum have semi-girlfriends/FWBs that they behave with in exactly that way, because of the girls' careers, although I can't remember who.

Sound like a plan?

 

[PinotNoir]

She sounds like she actually is busy, based on her résumé above. It also sounds like you played this perfectly though.

What she's looking for is a sexual beast to sweep her off her feet, and you're perfect

Oh okay. I hadn't thought of that, actually. I have so much free time these days, I sometimes forget what it was like when I was setting in out my career.

So maybe my best bet is to deep-dive her for a bit, get her to confirm all of the above, and then say something like: "It sounds in general as if you don't have a lot of time." And then proceed to imply, subtly or otherwise, that I'd be a good candidate to screw her senseless periodically, and then get out of her hair promptly each time, so she can press on with her work. Key is to give the impression I'm not gonna weigh her down.

I believe a couple others on this forum have semi-girlfriends/FWBs that they behave with in exactly that way, because of the girls' careers, although I can't remember who.

Sound like a plan?

I don't have experience with FWBs, but that plan sounds good to me Other guys can help you out with that.

By the way, have you tried Chase's Date Templates? For example:

- Meet at your place
- Go to local grocer to buy food/wine
- Either have picnic or go back to your place to enjoy food/wine (cook together)
- Watch movie or have dessert together on couch with coffee
- Get intimate

More examples in article.

 

[Marty]

PinotNoir:

Personally, I take the response to mean, "I very rarely have men approach me sober during the day and ask me on a date" -- which most likely is true. ... I think most women do not get asked out during the day from a cold approach, even the hottest of the hottest.

I'm starting to sympathize more with this sweet, lovely girl's point of view on this (I have to give her a name soon!... assuming she doesn't cancel or flake, I'll need to write a FR after my date tomorrow).

Thinking about it from her perspective, it is hard to be a woman. You know how we have to get used to having a spontaneous process ready to uncoil at any moment we walk past a hot babe? Okay, that requires practice, but it just takes a bit of getting used to. As a man you always have the option to pick yourself up off of the floor and do better next time. If you don't make the effort to improve, you have only yourself to blame.

Whilst as a girl, you basically only have a few cards up your sleeve. First and foremost you have your bequest from Mr. Charles Darwin, or more accurately from your ancestors' excellent sexual choices that have shaped and sculpted you as a woman. Not much you can do about that from the moment of your birth onward. Then you have your "fundamentals", both visual (physical fitness, clothing, cosmetic habits, make-up etc.) and social (manner, poise, confidence, acumen).

On top of that, well, you just have to kinda try not to screw up when an attractive man approaches you. But you still have to wait for him to approach—even if you give him a hint. And the problem is, you never know when it's gonna happen.

At least as a man, even if you don't get much warning, you have a few seconds to make up your mind to approach. And you know which way you're leading the conversation. I may have only had two minutes or less after my opener with this delectable girl, but at least I knew from the get-go that I was gonna ask her out. And she didn't.

So thanks for putting me on the straight and narrow. Maybe it's just because I'm due to see her tomorrow, but I feel a little more empathy for this mouthwatering girl now.

-Marty