FR Missed escalation opportunities. Any second chance?

[Samson84]

Hey this is my first FR.

I am from UK and have been in OH this weekend for a strength sports festival. One of the pro female bodybuilders that I follow and have had a crush on was there. I just saw her walking through the convention centre so I walked along side her and started talking like we were friends. She's 31, white and single afaik.

After a couple minutes she said, what was your name again and I told her and said we swapped a few messages on instagram. She said sorry it's all a blur sometimes (she has about 20k followers). She wanted coffee but the line at Starbucks was super long so I said hey we can get a coffee sitting down at the Hyatt next door and no wait. Come with me and we'll get a drink there.

And to my total surprise she said yeah ok and we went and bought a coffee and sat down at a table. We chatted for a while and she offered me one of her signed photos. At first I said hm I think I'd rather have your phone number cos I didn't want to go in the fan category. But then I said sure bc I didn't want to reject her investment. And I said actually I'll take two. Which she did.

Then we got a buffet lunch there amd she was all the time distracted about where was her mum who was looking for her.

So we chatted over lunch. I also volunteered some info about what I do which had very little impact on her and she said, so you're versatile! I asked questions like what her sport means to her, where she grew up, etc. And it seemed natural but not an incredible vibe like i have had with BPDs in the past. Super attractive tho. My ideal physique .. a female bodybuilder, stacked and ripped.

When her mum finally arrived I introduced myself and joked that we kept moving around so she wouldn't find us. She didn't seem uber happy to meet me. Normally I charm the socks off older women.

I had agreed to meet the girl in 90 mins at the expo to walk around and then get sushi. When time came she showed and we walked around a bit but it was packed and people kept recognizing her and wanting a photo. I said I would be her bodyguard and photographer for the day but I would be invoicing her later.

After a while it was just impossible so I said hey let's ge out of here. She said I have to change my shirt at my hotel so I walked with her there, not far and came up to her room while she changed.

When she was changed I said hey you look great and she saif thanks but I don't think she was ready for me to kiss her. She showed me the food in her room and gave me a free pack of protein cookies.

She said the restaurant across the street had good sushi so I phoned them and reserved a table. We talked there and they had my name wrong and we made a couple of joles about it. She lointed out the lobster display and said it looked loke someone killed Davie Jones. This made her laugh a lot.

I ordered sushi for us to share and she had a salad too. We talked about all random stuff mainly. Occasionally there was like a 10 second pause in convo butbit didn't feel awkward to me, and then we were talking again. I asked her more about what she gets out of her sport and went into some detail about some emotional experiences she had and how she managed to still focus on her training and somehow it even helped her get strong on the inside too. I validated this and expanded on it, the effects of grief on the body. A few other things she told me about and I listened, understood and mirrored.

There were a few tests. She talked a fair bit about her popularity and how this was a special opportunity for me because so many people would ewnt to have sushi with her. I responded by saying there were other people I could be with too but I'm not. She was maybe testing my sense of value. She also was chiding me for putting lime in her water without squeezing it. She asked me how old I was and said something about me not knowing how to do this and if I stick around her I would learn a few things. I made some lame response I don't exactly remember what.

Towards the end of the evening she started getting more suggestive with me and this is where I dropped the ball by missing her signals and not having the courage to cross the boundaries and escalate physically. For example at one point she touched her hair and flicked it, another time she looked down at both her muscular arms and said hmm good tan. She also showed me her competition photos on her phone and I was like yeah amazing. But I should have just given a full compliment and started kissing her.

Finally she said oh look you can feel the veins in my legs and gestured to her thigh so I touched her and said wow your legs are so hard. But still I didn't manage to really lead her into being properly physical right there in the restaurant. I realize it was a mistake to hesitate and I'm not sure why I did .. just my mind went blank and maybe I was afraid on some level.

She wanted to split the bill and I said ok and normally I wouldn't and I said something probably dumb here.

After the restaurtant she had to meet people and it was 7pm. I said hey come over to my hotel later and she said well I guess I could get an uber over later but very non committal and I felt her backing off which I did not know how to handle. Maybe I should have just grabbed her and kissed her there in the street probably.

Instead I let her go with the vague idea to meet up again later in the evening.

I texted her later asking about her plans and she had gone out to a restaurant with her girlfriends. I said I could come over and pick her up after 9pm? But no definitr response. I remembered something Chase wrote about auto rejection so I got dressed up and went to a party I had an invite for. Later I texted her I dropped by the party and she asked how it was. I sent a photo of me with one of the female entertainers on stilts and said the party was ok. She texted me back and I said hey let's meet at your hotel later. She didn't say yes or no but she said she was walking back to the hotel and later she said she was packing. I was trying to figure out a way back to proximity and waiting for an invite but maybe I should have said OK I'm on my way over. But I didn't want to seem like one of her stalkers.

In the end I said hey we only have tonight and I want to kiss those sweet lips of yours before heading out tomorrow. Amd she texted back later awww that is so sweet. But she has to rest now for her work and travel tomorrow. She said it was great meeting you and hanging.

At this point I figure I have blown all chances and now only thing to do is back off and avoid any chasing. So I said ok it was great meeting you too and safe travels.

I am really disappointed in myself that I was with the top woman I am attracted to and for some unkown reason I didn't get sexual with her and now I think about it I didn't have an erection. Maybe I was just panicking at the total shock of being in this situation and overwhelmed by it all happening so unexpectedly and quickly. I guess I was tense, not completely at ease to enjoy being with her. I'm also very new to this as I have only been on a few dates since getting out of my long tern marriage.

On a personal level I need to avoid being overly harsh on myself. I need to take on board the positives that someone I wanted from afar was attracted enough to me to take that time with me and it felt amazing being out with her. Thinking back on some of the things she said she must have liked me a lot.

However I am also gutted that I didn't score the goal. And I would like a second chance with this woman. But auto rejection sucks.

She lives in DC and I live in UK. We both travel a bit. But I have NO idea now how to get another date with her. What are your ideas?

Advice so far is to wait a good week with no contact and then go for a casual convo by text.



I

 

[Michal]

Hello Samson,

I think you did well. There are situations where you took the lead and she followed and the mistakes you made, you already know what they are. I noticed in myself and other guys that we are sometimes too understanding / empathetic. Meaning, when she messaged you that she will be packing later because she is leaving the next day, if you were thinking with your penis and not your understanding, intelligent brain, you might have thought like "oh weak excuse" and then message her "so see you at 9:30?" completely ignoring what she texted. But I think something like "great, I can help you pack and we can have a drink after. So 9:30 at your hotel lobby?" Or exclude the question of time, I dont know. With it included you are kind of deciding for her that she will want to meet and agrees to your plan of co-packing.

Anyways, not sure whether it was Seppuku or Richard but one of them had a good advice that it is good to think about the date or outings with girls as your only chance of making something happen. But I think you already know this. Especially with girls who are traveling and not staying in one place that long.

Also, just mentioning this because I need to work on this myself - find any way, any excuse to touch the girl. Like when she told you about the veins on her thighs, she has two tighs so you could then touch the other thigh and say something like "well this one is not so veiny" and then, after like 5 seconds touch the first one again and be like "but this one feels a slightly bit stronger".

Regarding getting another date, I guess it will be tough if you are not in same city.

 

[Samson84]

Thanks Michal. Yes in retrospect I am able to spot many mistakes, the biggest not being simply kissing her at the first sign she was ready in the restaurant.

I don't understand why I didn't, as I always have been very assertive in that stage before.

Have you guys ever had a shot with your preferred girl, and blown it, and thought you would never get a shot with someone like that again? What kind of attitude and thinking is helpful after coming soooo close to something you wanted, and then making a mistake and losing the chance.

 

[Seppuku]

Anyways, not sure whether it was Seppuku or Richard but one of them had a good advice that it is good to think about the date or outings with girls as your only chance of making something happen.

Thank you Michal. Yes I did, and for a good reason. It typically looks like this: First date is going well, all seem good... But when you try to set up the next date, she goes silent. Or evasive. Or gives you shit, etc... and second date never happens. Ring a bell? Who, reading this, never experienced that? Actually, who here never experienced this scenario many, many times over, just to be left completely puzzled with one question in mind: Why? What did I do wrong?

Answer is simple: you didn't escalate her sexually. I know we are trained to think of women as pure spirits in search of love and relationships, but at the core women are fine-tuned by evolution to the purpose of creating and nurturing life - that is, they have very strong sexual, mating instincts. No matter how she consciously rationalizes things, deep down at the instinctual level she expects you, as a man, to attempt to sexually escalate her. And when you don't, she simply stops viewing you in a romantic (=sexual) way: "Not that sort of man!". Unfortunately, the window shaping her perception of you, is very short.

If you want to stay on the safe side, you are better off assuming that this first date is the only chance you will ever get... So better take it. Much better to attempt sexual escalation and fail, than have her leave you with the "not that sort of man" perception. At least, you're a sexual man! Besides, she accepted a one on one date with you means she likes you, and you stand a very good chance to succeed.

Also, just mentioning this because I need to work on this myself - find any way, any excuse to touch the girl.

Excellent remark! *Always* touch her on a date. Initially "incidental" touching (e.g. like if it just so happened). Then later deliberate touching. Then later more daring touching. It's gradual, when you feel your touch is accepted, you step up. This will create a lot of sexual tension. With the right vibe, you can easily get to deliberately cupping her boobs on the first date: how about that for painting yourself as a sexual man? Without getting to that extreme, touching will still do wonders for you, it's very powerful, and you can actually make her wet and horny this way. In fact, touching on a date is actually the beginning of physical escalation.

Yes in retrospect I am able to spot many mistakes, the biggest not being simply kissing her at the first sign she was ready in the restaurant.

Nope. Kissing is not the end game. The end game is taking her to bed. Kissing her will not always win you the girl. Kissing too early can be tricky and fire back. For this reason I usually keep the kiss until I'm about to actually fucking her. Your biggest mistake is not telling her "hey, I've got a super cool music playlist in my room, come with me!" [or any similar casual, plausible excuse to bring her in your room]. When in your room, you put the playlist, get close to her and escalate.

Now with all that being said, you can in fact give yourself a pat in the back for bringing your top dream girl on a date. Congratulations on that! There is one positive point: if you were able to do it once, you can certainly do it twice - with another top girl. Another positive thing: next time this happens, you will hopefully know better what to do.

Also, with all these talks of mistakes, and failed escalation etc... it does not mean you can't continue to pursue. There are a few rules, though:

1. Persist, but don't chase or display neediness, under no circumstance
2. Don't throw yourself at her
3. Light and casual conversation, flirty and sexy tone

On texting, what you want to ideally establish is a situation where she initiates most of the time, i.e. her chasing you. A great indication of interest. But if you can't achieve this, the next best thing is non chasing persistence. It is a good idea to incorporate silences as a way to make her wonder (it's tension!). At the same time it will give her a chance to miss your conversation and hopefully prompt her to initiating first. You can *hint* about coming back to the States, and test her reaction. But only propose a concrete meeting plan, when you have an actual travel opportunity at hand, a little slightly ahead of actual travel.

Seppuku

 

[Samson84]

On this date I think I was putting myself under too much pressure. Trying to remember a million things, instead of just relaxing and enjoying her company. What a shame! This may be why I wasn't escalating too.

Next time I need to stay mindful of my own feelings towards her and not just trying to "be" or "do" everything right.

 

[Samson84]

Here is one more question.

When she was flicking her hair, checking out her arms, telling me to feel her thigh -- does this mean that at that time she was attracted, i.e. wet? Or just that she wanted to see whether I could raise her attraction level by touching her?

 

[Michal]

Here is one more question.

When she was flicking her hair, checking out her arms, telling me to feel her thigh -- does this mean that at that time she was attracted, i.e. wet? Or just that she wanted to see whether I could raise her attraction level by touching her?

She is basically saying "dominate me physically, I am submitting to you". While thinking "I want his hands on my thighs" It still depends how she says it and how she reacts to it. Because there are certantly cases where she might just want you to be impressed with her muscular body. But I am sure you could tell by the vibe of the interaction. But overall, girls dont want to be touched by guys they do not feel comfortable with. So it is a very good sign.

 

[dcman]

Hi Samson,

Based on what I read , I feel that you did not build a sufficient level of rapport where she would have been willing to follow and due to the time constraints of your trip you may have come across too needy in trying to get her to bed. I have given my thoughts in detail.

After a couple minutes she said, what was your name again and I told her and said we swapped a few messages on instagram. She said sorry it's all a blur sometimes (she has about 20k followers). She wanted coffee but the line at Starbucks was super long so I said hey we can get a coffee sitting down at the Hyatt next door and no wait. Come with me and we'll get a drink there.

You did really well by showing leadership. you will be surprised to see how many times guys do not know this. It probably came across as a higher value man.

I also volunteered some info about what I do which had very little impact on her and she said, so you're versatile! I asked questions like what her sport means to her, where she grew up, etc. And it seemed natural but not an incredible vibe like i have had with BPDs in the past. Super attractive tho. My ideal physique .. a female bodybuilder, stacked and ripped.

When you noticed the conversation was not building the vibe you needed it is better to change the subject to other areas like about why she is single, sexual talk, yoga, travelling, spirituality or any other area that would have built a rapport with her. What works with each girl differs so that is why initially I probe them to find that works and use to build a connection. I try to get some sexual talk just to get an idea how open she would be for sex.

When her mum finally arrived I introduced myself and joked that we kept moving around so she wouldn't find us. She didn't seem uber happy to meet me. Normally I charm the socks off older women.

When she told about her mom. you should have found out about their staying arrangements and as a joke even asked her if her mom chaperons her everywhere. This would have given an idea if she was open to having an ONS that night. If she had to go back in the evening to be with her mom etc. in the evening. With family around girls are not as open they normally would be.

I had agreed to meet the girl in 90 mins at the expo to walk around and then get sushi.

Not sure about the idea of getting sushi and walking in the expo if her mom and friends are there. Maybe should have asked for a venue change.

When time came she showed and we walked around a bit but it was packed and people kept recognizing her and wanting a photo. I said I would be her bodyguard and photographer for the day but I would be invoicing her later.

When a girl I am with gets a lot of attention I just look indifferent. If I comment about her popularity etc. it does not add anything to my value and just adds to the flattery that she gets.

After a while it was just impossible so I said hey let's ge out of here.

Good job leading again.

when she was changed I said hey you look great and she saif thanks but I don't think she was ready for me to kiss her.

In the earlier interactions try to get a little kinko to get an idea about this. When I was learning the game if a girl let me hold her hands I used this as a sign she would be open to it. With experience you would be able to figure out just from visual communication.For the time being use Kinko to get an idea.

She said the restaurant across the street had good sushi so I phoned them and reserved a table. We talked there and they had my name wrong and we made a couple of joles about it. She lointed out the lobster display and said it looked loke someone killed Davie Jones. This made her laugh a lot.

If her mom and friends were in the vicinty it may have been better to have taken to a different location. Girls tend to be more open when they do not have their family, friends nearby.

I ordered sushi for us to share and she had a salad too. We talked about all random stuff mainly. Occasionally there was like a 10 second pause in convo butbit didn't feel awkward to me, and then we were talking again. I asked her more about what she gets out of her sport and went into some detail about some emotional experiences she had and how she managed to still focus on her training and somehow it even helped her get strong on the inside too. I validated this and expanded on it, the effects of grief on the body. A few other things she told me about and I listened, understood and mirrored.

Again, as mentioned earlier try to get some sex talk in to gauge her openness to having sex, about relationship, if she kisses on the first date. This will give you an idea on how to proceed further otherwise all your planning is based on assumptions.Your conversations should be knowing things about her that will work in the deduction process.

Finally she said oh look you can feel the veins in my legs and gestured to her thigh so I touched her and said wow your legs are so hard. But still I didn't manage to really lead her into being properly physical right there in the restaurant. I realize it was a mistake to hesitate and I'm not sure why I did .. just my mind went blank and maybe I was afraid on some level.

If the restaurant was not the correct place to escalate just suggest a venue change that would have felt comfortable. Personally, I would have done the venue change much earlier if here family and friends were around.

After the restaurtant she had to meet people and it was 7pm. I said hey come over to my hotel later and she said well I guess I could get an uber over later but very non committal and I felt her backing off which I did not know how to handle. Maybe I should have just grabbed her and kissed her there in the street probably.

As mentioned earlier the right questions were not asked earlier so you were working under a lot of assumptions. Many girls I talked to in the USA feel going to a hotel as being slutty and want to avoid giving this assumption. Normally when I can I prefer getting an apartment rather than a hotel as it makes it easier to invite girls over. At this point when walking on the street you should at least held hands to gauge her response to move before deciding on the next move.

I texted her later asking about her plans and she had gone out to a restaurant with her girlfriends. I said I could come over and pick her up after 9pm? But no definitr response.

At this point you should have focused on meeting other girls rather than being fixated on her. You offered her once and it was up to her and you should have gone about doing your things.

Later I texted her I dropped by the party and she asked how it was. I sent a photo of me with one of the female entertainers on stilts and said the party was ok. She texted me back and I said hey let's meet at your hotel later.

If a girl is not responding to you messages you need to decrease your investment in her not increase your messaging. It adds value to you. While I understand that you were there only one night left still you cannot lower your value. A girl’s preference is to be with a guy who is of higher value. You should have been working to interact with girls in the party rather than thinking and messaging this girl. Try it next time and see the difference.

I was trying to figure out a way back to proximity and waiting for an invite but maybe I should have said OK I'm on my way over. But I didn't want to seem like one of her stalkers.

correct decision here.

In the end I said hey we only have tonight and I want to kiss those sweet lips of yours before heading out tomorrow.

You need to read signs that she certainly had no interest in meeting that night for whatever reason. At least at this point you should have chilled. Instead this message seemed like a desperate attempt. Your value got lowered and gave the impression you did not have any options besides her.

I am really disappointed in myself that I was with the top woman I am attracted to and for some unkown reason I didn't get sexual with her and now I think about it I didn't have an erection. Maybe I was just panicking at the total shock of being in this situation and overwhelmed by it all happening so unexpectedly and quickly. I guess I was tense, not completely at ease to enjoy being with her. I'm also very new to this as I have only been on a few dates since getting out of my long tern marriage.

You showed leadership , took charge and did many things well. From what I read you did not do any kinko or ask the correct questions and read signs to decide the correct plan to close with her. As you were working under too many assumption’s you get needy towards the end. Try changing this and see the difference.

However I am also gutted that I didn't score the goal. And I would like a second chance with this woman. But auto rejection sucks.

I do not understand what you say auto rejection ?
Learn to enjoy the process of seducing a woman as it will make a fun and more fulfilling experience. Thinking of it as a goal as in this case puts more pressure and does not help. When does not comply to a request reduce the investment on her and interact with other girls.

She lives in DC and I live in UK. We both travel a bit. But I have NO idea now how to get another date with her. What are your ideas?

Advice so far is to wait a good week with no contact and then go for a casual convo by text.

I have recovered on occasions when I had been slow to escalate. I can do sexual talk by phone, text or escalate the next time.

Based on what I read I think you showed neediness. it is hard to recover when neediness is shown. You would need to use social media to show her that you have many options, message her to build comfort, get into sexual talk, see how she responds to sexual conversation and then decide how to close with her.

 

[Samson84]

Hi dcman

I just saw your detailed response thank you.

First of all, what is kinko? You mention it a few times but I'm not familiar with the term.

How do you start with sexual talk? And how do you build it without making her feel uncomfortable? And how would you introduce it over text?

Yeah I think you are right that I showed some neediness that night. I messaged her a week later and I put the details of that in the General board under the topic 'how to deal with these tests'.

Any options for a recovery at this stage would be great.

I'm organizing a photographer to help boost my instagram a little.

 

[CCIF3]

Thank you Michal. Yes I did, and for a good reason. It typically looks like this: First date is going well, all seem good... But when you try to set up the next date, she goes silent. Or evasive. Or gives you shit, etc... and second date never happens. Ring a bell? Who, reading this, never experienced that? Actually, who here never experienced this scenario many, many times over, just to be left completely puzzled with one question in mind: Why? What did I do wrong?

Answer is simple: you didn't escalate her sexually. I know we are trained to think of women as pure spirits in search of love and relationships, but at the core women are fine-tuned by evolution to the purpose of creating and nurturing life - that is, they have very strong sexual, mating instincts. No matter how she consciously rationalizes things, deep down at the instinctual level she expects you, as a man, to attempt to sexually escalate her. And when you don't, she simply stops viewing you in a romantic (=sexual) way: "Not that sort of man!". Unfortunately, the window shaping her perception of you, is very short.

If you want to stay on the safe side, you are better off assuming that this first date is the only chance you will ever get... So better take it. Much better to attempt sexual escalation and fail, than have her leave you with the "not that sort of man" perception. At least, you're a sexual man! Besides, she accepted a one on one date with you means she likes you, and you stand a very good chance to succeed.

QFT

 

[CCIF3]

Man, I think you should let thoughts of this chick go.

This fitness THOT believes herself to be a celebrity. You weren't a hookup prospect, you were a fan. At no point were you leading the interaction, you were a hanger-on.

She had a few hours to kill and so she used you to occupy that time while you fed her the 2nd favorite drug* of fitness THOTs: attention. At no point she consider boning you. Just stick to normal girls without 20k IG followers, it'll be a much better use of your time.

*1st favorite: anavar

 

[Samson84]

Man, I think you should let thoughts of this chick go.

Would make sense at this point. It seems to be over.

This fitness THOT believes herself to be a celebrity.

Yep, she was definitely into her popularity. Maybe she was a little high on it having just been on the stage the previous day, and seeing many of her fans around.

But let's not label her a thot since we don't know much about her. And let's not forget she was there with her mother!

You weren't a hookup prospect, you were a fan. At no point were you leading the interaction, you were a hanger-on.

Well I don't think so. I led the interaction at the beginning and right up until I should have been escalating at the restaurant. I didn't act like a fan at all, in fact I was leading her through the fans to get her out alone. Later on my frame weakened and I failed where I lacked experience.

She had a few hours to kill and so she used you to occupy that time while you fed her the 2nd favorite drug* of fitness THOTs: attention. At no point she consider boning you.

Hm, no I think it was on her mind, otherwise she wouldn't have introduced the word sex into the conversation. My bad for not developing it well.

Just stick to normal girls without 20k IG followers, it'll be a much better use of your time.

*1st favorite: anavar

Ha. Well I like the anavar look. And I desire women who lift, are strong, and have the dedication to succeed in bodybuilding. Those are very attractive qualities to me.

I think I just need to improve my value and skillset.

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[dcman]

First of all, what is kinko? You mention it a few times but I'm not familiar with the term.

Spelling mistake should be kino.

How do you start with sexual talk? And how do you build it without making her feel uncomfortable? And how would you introduce it over text?

Alex Rolstad has provided ideas on using sex talk in this recording it could Provide a basis on how to transfer from normal conversation to sex talk. https://soundcloud.com/girlschase/10-al ... al-prizing .

When I am texting normally I would make it seem to come in the flow of the conversation and in an indirect manner initially. In this case as you had been texting about sushi I would follow up and ask what is the most exotic fruit you have tried? based on the response I could casually text How you "recently found out goji berries increases a man and woman’s sex drive". I will see how she replies and work based on it. Hope this helps.

Yeah I think you are right that I showed some neediness that night. I messaged her a week later and I put the details of that in the General board under the topic 'how to deal with these tests'.

Any options for a recovery at this stage would be great.

I'm organizing a photographer to help boost my instagram a little.

Just read about the details of the tests in the other board. It is a bitch shield a girl that gets hit a lot puts on for guys. I will write about it in the other post.

With regards to the girl I do not know her well and would be a long shot but this is what I would try. I would use social media to initially convey that you are with girls in her and above her league. The photographer probably can help with a model to use in the shots to convey this message. You can also use these photographs to break bitch shield from other girls you encounter in the future. When she does not hear from you she will know that you have stopped pursuit and probably have a girl based on the pictures. See if she reacts to it otherwise leave it for the time being. The next time you plan to be in the USA and close to the dc area. you can message her and say “we are planning to visit DC. what hotels can you recommend for us to be close to the mall.” Let her think that you may not be available as in my experience I have seen girls pursue a guy or at least the attraction increases when they know the guy is not going to pursue them. Based on her response you can see how to proceed further.
You know the girl better so try out options based on what you feel would work.

 

[Samson84]

Ok, thanks for all replies to this thread. I've been trying to get everything out of it as a learning experience.

Just a couple more questions here.

With regard to the superiority thing, would it also work to convert to a chase frame? e.g.

Her: This is quite a treat for you when there are so many people here who want time with me
Me: Well I guess you must like me a lot then. I hope you're not just trying to get into my pants. So anyway...

And finally: I held back on giving her the validation and compliments I think she wanted. Now I'm thinking that towards the end of the date I should have given her that a lot more. e.g.

"You have the deepest blue eyes"
"Your body is a work of art"

etc. And showing I am aroused by her. Now I am thinking this would have helped a lot to move things forward when she started opening up to me. (Not too early, like a fan.) And may have helped me to loosen up too. What do you think?