Moving fast? Investment? Attainability? I'm groping in the dark.

[Black]

Stuck at beginners' level here. Lower than that. . .

I'm doing online gaming mostly, not the ideal thing but I'm trying to play the numbers game and contacting about a dozen or so girls a day until a have a few I can ask out, repeat. There's many Tinder-like apps I can use when on the move so it's not so inefficient.

Fundamentals. . .

Looks: I get people complimenting on every social circle, regardless of demographics, without prompting on my part. Slight facial hair, big veiny biceps, good abs, shoulders, back, legs and general body shape (very strong but not stumpy just yet), neat haircut, clothing, shades. . . I'm not exaggerating, I've been more than a decade working on my fitness and looks and it makes sense that I more or less have it together. . .

Attitude: I might still not be the most arrogant alpha male stereotype but after reading this site, I've pinpointed and cut down on a lot of bad silly stuff I was doing or bad body language, etc. . . I compare myself to what's around (I'm in Asia if you know that means) and I think I'm solid enough. . . at least for some "minimun" results.

I watch my investment levels, I actively keep rotating girls in and out of my life to avoid scarcity, I avoid qualifying myself too much, I don't go around buying people things cause I'm broke (for now), I try to disqualify myself as boyfriend material as soon as possible, even in social circle.

So something has to be wrong in my process, timing, whatever. . . I'm not kidding when I say I go many months in a row without as much as a kiss.
I'm not trolling, this is not a joke (gives me a bitter laugh thou).

_____________________________________________________________

If you've been to Asia you've probably have seen flabby, usually fat, poorly dressed white guys going around with stunning local girls. I see it all the time, in my social circles. Of course, a few actually have a good job and long-term prospects, others are not so ugly. But, in general, my feeling is that the value equation is such that these are the guys who show up at parties as the loyal boyfriend of this or that girl - everyone else above that level is on a crazy rampage.

What finally prompted me to post:
One of these characters recently joined one of my circles. . . the guy is deep in "jerk" territory (aloof, no career prospects, insufferable status/politics jokeying, cluster B traits, can't lower your guard for a split-second that he'll pull off some AMOG potshot, can't even shake hands with him he'll try to scoff at you in some way).
Basically he comes to our meetups and burns a girl to the ground each time, physical escalation in front of everyone, fails in front of everyone, tries another one in front of everyone while others laugh, (just not from the core of the group, obviously). . . and it's beginning to work for him. Obesity and all. . .

Saturday dinner, this guy took home a girl who was meeting with us for the very first time and before that he only had one afternoon to online-game her: first-date lay, basically.

_____________________________________________________________________________

So, the question is "what the f**k is a guy like me doing".
How do I move fast without seeming like chasing or loosing in the investment equation?
Most of these girls I contact (mostly outside social circle), I try to banter with them, I try to deep down - I rarerly get any investment from them.
I always get this crushing gut feeling that they are not interested at all. . .
Often, they randomly "not reply for 20 minutes" and when they do is some vague thing; when this happens, I concentrate on other girls for two days or so (or forever).
Obstinate frame stances also lead me to next them and at the same time it's difficult to push the envelope with a sexual frame; most of the time it gets them to next me instead.
I've been holding back on compliments too. Big/stupid favor requests: I blatantly ignore and return a flirty mixed signals frame.
It's not getting me anywhere.
At the end, all I have is over 95% girls I'm nexting.

Maybe should I make myself more attainable?
Go back to the basics and start saying things like "you are so beautiful, do you have a boyfriend? Can you send me a picture?"
Seriously, this is not some subtle advanced stuff I'm doing wrong. It's something very basic I'm obviously not seeing.
Ugly guys with no game are doing better than me.
I might as well be bald and 20 kgs overweight (God forbid) and I could still be doing better!

I'm not bitter, I'm still trying, but you can imagine that, with random people saying things about my physique/looks and supposed "girlfriends" every other week, other guys acting jealous (of what???), my cognitive dissonance is through the roof. Sometimes I really get some kind of emotional burnout after hours of having my mind go in circles.

________________________________________________________

P.S. I do have girls regularly throwing themselves at me; those are a big step down and don't count; I'm not attracted to them; very few are.

 

[ray_zorse]

I think part of the problem is you're comparing yourself to others and also that you're seeking validation from your social circle, anyway the difference with these other dudes is while they ain't got fundamentals they got game... thinking about the dude who gets rejected and laughed at in front of the whole group and then shrugs it off and moves onto the next... that takes a pretty solid inner frame... he knows he is gonna give a girl a good time yet does not take himself too seriously... surely can laugh at himself when he gets a bad blowout and think "Yah I deserved that, hahaha".

So I'd say you need to fix your inner game, be more confident and secure in yourself and adopt more of an IDGAF, risk taking mentality... how do I do this you ask? Well reset to zero, assume you're an average chode who stays home all day masturbating to porn and turns to jelly when a woman speaks to him... and steadily work on acquiring the skills to turn that around. Who cares what the other guys are doing, for you the results will come with consistent hard work and in a trickle...

(I've been on GC for 5-6 months and have had 1 LR, 3 LR- and I'm pleased with this result even though it sounds a bit pathetic considering I recently calculated I've approached about 1000 women in that time... it's just I was starting from being a total chode and having poor inner game, so lots of ground to make up... you'll prob look back and feel the same way even if now it seems you "should" be getting more results with women).

cheers, Ray

 

[ProblemSolving]

If you've been to Asia you've probably have seen flabby, usually fat, poorly dressed white guys going around with stunning local girls. I see it all the time, in my social circles.

This is not unique to Asia. Asian and Filipino girls in North America follow the same MO - smoking hot girl with average white or Asian guy. Their looks threshold is so low, practically every guy qualifies. This is why most white guys love Asian girls, it's because they can get considerably hotter girls than what they could get from their own race. I believe this phenomena is due to the conservative culture of these girls which favors long term commitment over playing the field to get the best possible mate.

Basically he comes to our meetups and burns a girl to the ground each time, physical escalation in front of everyone, fails in front of everyone, tries another one in front of everyone while others laugh, (just not from the core of the group, obviously). . . and it's beginning to work for him. Obesity and all. . .

Of course it's working, he's being aggressive and playing the numbers game. You would get laid too, and probably have an easier time doing it, if you followed the same protocol.

Most of these girls I contact (mostly outside social circle), I try to banter with them, I try to deep down - I rarerly get any investment from them

From what you said earlier, I'm assuming this is online. If that's the case, send a few texts, then pitch the meet up FAST. Don't try to deep dive over text. You need to the screen out the time wasters from the girls that are interested. If a girl is interested she'll agree to meet up. During the meet up, invite her over to your place and close the deal.

It's hard to give you specific feedback because your descriptions of your interactions are so vague. If I had to guess, the problem lies in the fact that you're not pitching the meet fast enough.

 

[Black]

So I'd say you need to fix your inner game, be more confident and secure in yourself and adopt more of an IDGAF, risk taking mentality... how do I do this you ask? Well reset to zero, assume you're an average chode who stays home all day masturbating to porn and turns to jelly when a woman speaks to him... and steadily work on acquiring the skills to turn that around. Who cares what the other guys are doing, for you the results will come with consistent hard work and in a trickle...

Thank you. . . really. I didn't bring up much my inner game problem but if you noticed it through the lines - then it probably means it really needs to be addressed.
It's a pervading and crushing gut feeling that absolutely no girl, in any venue whatsoever, wants anything to do with me.
For one, it stops me from approaching.
More than once I've had girls in my group ask me "why are you not approaching any girls?" and I scan for a second, see all these mixed groups and say "but there's no (available) girls here".
Second, when I get approach invitations cognitive dissonance spikes and I get paralyzed. Then either the window closes or some guy sees this gap and butts in the middle trying to poach her.
I've had this buddy bring a girl-friend of his, try to have her seat besides me with an excuse, then say she should be sitting on my lap, to which she agreed saying "yeah I think I'm gonna sit on his lap". . . I let her seat besides me and ignored her while my brain kept looping "no girl is attracted to me - no girl is attracted to me - no gi. . ." obviously, she got up and left. I was quite drunk but still. . . Healthy drunk people do other things. . . I've decided to cut down on booze. . .

. . .but anyway your advice is solid.
"Resetting to zero" (less "I should. . ." and more "I have nothing to lose") has helped me turn things around in other areas.
I do need to stay focused lest I fall back to the above kind of thing. . . :/

 

[Black]

From what you said earlier, I'm assuming this is online. If that's the case, send a few texts, then pitch the meet up FAST. Don't try to deep dive over text. You need to the screen out the time wasters from the girls that are interested. If a girl is interested she'll agree to meet up. During the meet up, invite her over to your place and close the deal.

That's definitely there.

Not wanting to digress on the differences between here and the West, emigration hopes and conspicuous consumption, stories about girls trying to impregnate themselves from used condoms in the thrash can or threatening with suicide when things go sour, the aforementioned guy telling me I should lie to girls and tell 'em I'm from a rich country in order to get poon. . . and my own resulting turn offs and hang ups. . . I have two operational problems here:

1) I need or I feel I need to build comfort to meet up. This is not 100% true because these apps are not infamous for booty calls with total strangers without a reason. . . but I need to work on this somehow. Earlier today I confirmed a "date", the first time I brought this up she wasn't comfortable with the idea, then I nexted her until she got back to me on her own, upped the sexuality of the conversation etc. . . Probably the answer is to push for a meet up ASAP anyway and then, if declined, see. . .

2) Not allowed to bring girls where I live. So I'm scanning for girls that have their own place. It's just easier for me. I have no idea how to take them to a love hotel if I'm not f*cking them already.

I suppose I could come up with some kind of conversation "template" (in my mind; not that I'm gonna write it down or anything) that addresses these points in an elegant way but quickly. Basically get everything done in a short conversation. . .

 

[ray_zorse]

I would suggest to try going out alone to meet girls. Problem with going out in a group is there are usually some pretty dominant members of the group who tend to run a lot of the conversations and make decisions and so I tend to just be pretty passive and sit there trying to think of something to say to break into the conversation... but what is even more poisonous is I know the people in the group see me as a pretty passive guy (someone who can be bossed around, have his compliance requests ignored, can be the butt of jokes / AMOGing, tends to take value) and subconsciously this makes me act in a way that's congruent with their expectations.

OTOH when you meet a person or group for the first time and no poisonous "buddies" are there to AMOG you, it is genuinely a chance to reinvent yourself, I find that my whole posture and voice perks up, I become more animated, I get more in people's faces and be assertive, sexual jokes pop into my head etc... all because my subconscious is telling me "be yourself" instead of "be your old shitty self otherwise you won't be able to sustain it, someone will call you out on being a tryhard and you'll look like a dick". After I noticed this I cut a lot of people out of my life permanently, also ditched FB and so on.

The next thing is to get a shitload of practice interacting with women. Practice your conversation with sales girls, register chicks etc... one thing that helped me was saying "I'm going to compliment everyone I meet today..." example (real one):

Her: hi there what can I get you?
Me: (ignoring the question) I like your earrings... you look good! I'm Raymond what's your name? (I offer my hand across the counter)
Her: (shakes my hand) (her name)
Me: Great well today I'll have a tall cappucino no sugars thanks
Her: sure that'll be $4.00
Me: (pays)
Her: thanks! see you again soon! (wide genuine smile)

On a subsequent visit I established she's from Brazil and deep dove a bit, anyway everything is tons easier if you lead in with a compliment, it takes some balls but soon becomes a part of who you are! Anyway once you are happy with your conversation, get approaching and you'll level up quickly.

cheers, Ray

 

[ProblemSolving]

1) I need or I feel I need to build comfort to meet up.

Not necessary. Check this out to see why all that talk is hurting you:

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2011/05/08/the-longer-you-talk-online-the-lower-your-odds-become/

Earlier today I confirmed a "date", the first time I brought this up she wasn't comfortable with the idea, then I nexted her until she got back to me on her own, upped the sexuality of the conversation etc. . . Probably the answer is to push for a meet up ASAP anyway and then, if declined, see. . .

No, you handled it right. She wasn't comfortable to meet up, so you put her on the back-burner until she made herself more comfortable- good job! Another option you can do with these girls that seem keen to meet up, but are still holding themselves back is to call them on the phone. The comfort of hearing your voice and demonstrating that you're a normal guy can be enough to push them over the edge and agree to meet up.

2) Not allowed to bring girls where I live. So I'm scanning for girls that have their own place. It's just easier for me. I have no idea how to take them to a love hotel if I'm not f*cking them already.

This complicates things. It's easiest to plan the meet close to where she lives and seed a reason to go back to her place. You could shop for groceries together then make a dinner at her place. Meeting up at a bar or coffee shop near her place, then seed a reason of going back to her place like watching a particular movie or show is another option.

The success of this will largely depend on if she lives with roommates who might judge her for bringing a guy home on the first date. Ideally, she will live alone.

 

[Black]

OTOH when you meet a person or group for the first time and no poisonous "buddies" are there to AMOG you, it is genuinely a chance to reinvent yourself. . .

Just for the anecdote, here, when I first join a social circle everyone seems to think I'm some alpha male.
There's a lot of talking about my looks, physique, etc. . .
An ugly girl or two might start chasing. . . and earlier or later someone brings up the fact that I probably "get a lot of girls".
Then we go out, once or twice, I might get drunk or tired enough to start venting to some "friend" - gossip spreads. . .
. . .and becomes the chink in my armor everyone likes to poke at.
Deliberately to do harm or out of stupidity (usually both), the subject starts to get brought up each time. . .

Last Friday I came to the conclusion that this is not a coincidence: a few might get a boost in status by teasing or telling - a guy that looks like me - that they "are going to help me get girls" within earshot of others.

If the situation is too bad and I can't get anything good out of it, I just leave the group (I usually have 2 or 3), if not, I'm finding myself throwing people under the bus in return until they learn.

For example, not long after I complained and gossip spread in one group, the douche I was talking about before began to post jokes about creepy guys not getting laid and being zoophilic/necrophilic instead, trying (and failing) to get everyone involved. No point in addressing that. . .

In another group I made this "little buddy" that began interrupting conversations, slapping my back, and giving me orders in front of everyone.
Eventually I just started ignoring, sniggering, denying his requests, or making girls laugh with stories about his uncalibrated-ness.
He's a bit hurt now but the situation is under of control.

 

[Black]

Check this out to see why all that talk is hurting you:

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2011/05/08/the-longer-you-talk-online-the-lower-your-odds-become/

Awesome. I was just needing some tips specific to online gaming.

Two questions:

1) These are gps based aps that let you go straight to chat. What should be the response rate?
It really is very low. I know I have a good picture. . . and I also don't do any complicated openers.
. . .but as far as contacting total strangers I'm getting like slightly over a 1/20 reply rate.
It seems like most don't even look at the message.

2) Then out of the ones that do reply, more than half don't lead to anything resembling a conversation.
Maybe after I just ask "so what are you doing now" or "what are you doing in this city" or anything really they just stop replying for no apparent reason.
A lot just give one or two word answers without adding anything, and a small percentage (but big from what I'm used to) have directly replied my "hi" or "so which city are you from?" with an insult, a hostile remark, etc. . .

Right now, for example, I have about 30 openings that were never read (to diff. people of course), and like 5 read and not replied too. . . and like less than 10 ongoing conversations including people I'm nexting.

Maybe because the male-to-female ratio is very very very bad, the walls might be very high. . .
Any interactions going anywhere substantial are from girls who contacted me in the first place (who are rarerly attractive) - and in those cases it's like they can't get enough and I have to excuse myself.

The question is: the no-replies, the dismissive one-word answers. . . are any of these worth persisting? I feel like the locals insist and insist and insist and, in my opinion, beg. . . I just feel like nexting.

_________

Sometimes I ask myself: If I get these response rates, what do the (often homely) local guys get? Those guys who put cartoons instead of their real picture?
It must be useless for them!

 

[ray_zorse]

Read the articles on texting and on PoF on the main site. One thing that sticks out is "what are you doing now" is a totally boring text and should never be sent. Amuse her instead.

Having said that... online is a numbers game. You should think nothing of swiping right 900 times, getting 30 matches and one or two decent conversations (my numbers may be off as I don't do a lot of online game)... it can work for you if you keep it real low investment on your part and just play the numbers.

I'd try some in-person game.

cheers, Ray

 

[ProblemSolving]

These are gps based aps that let you go straight to chat. What should be the response rate?

Response rates will always be low online due to the volume of potential suitors. You rise above your competitors and increase your response rate by having better pictures than them.

I know I have a good picture. . .

Good or decent pictures won't cut it online. Girls have literally thousands of pictures of themselves to choose for their profile that ensure they look their absolute best. You should be just as vigilant to look your best in your profile pictures or you will be underselling yourself. If you can get professional pictures taken it will help immensely, or you can take some pics yourself under very good lighting.

Then out of the ones that do reply, more than half don't lead to anything resembling a conversation.
Maybe after I just ask "so what are you doing now" or "what are you doing in this city" or anything really they just stop replying for no apparent reason

This is normal. Responses and meet ups increase with better pictures, but time wasters will always be part of the online world. You've got to hit the numbers hard to find the buyers from the window shoppers.

There's nothing wrong with your generic, "Hey, whats up?" openers. If a girl is interested, she'll respond. The problem with gimmicky original openers is that it doesn't screen out the time wasters. You could have a super original opener that gets a 100% response rate, but only 10% actually agree to meet up. In this case, you waste 90% of your time texting girls who don't want to meet up, when those 10% that do want to meet up, would have responded to you generic opener anyways.

 

[Black]

Looks I'm not doing so bad now. . . I have another date soon (new girl) and yet another one in the near future after that (to confirm).

The later is 22 (over a decade younger lol), comes from a very exotic region and looks amazing - so I couldn't resist my curiosity.
She's also here earning her own money which limits my fear that she'll be a spoiled brat.

She reacted well to my approach.
I made a joke about her being absurdely beautiful (how do I get my intention across without complimenting?), asked about her traditions/religion and got her to tell me her generation is more open minded, asked her if she has ever had a boyfriend (has had, no small matter in this country. . .)

. . .agreed for us to meet up for a coffee soon.

The catch is that she said "Sure! I'm new in town and I don't have many friends yet."

I did not address this.

Should I just regard it as baby-babble and proceed or what?

 

[ProblemSolving]

She reacted well to my approach.
I made a joke about her being absurdely beautiful (how do I get my intention across without complimenting?), asked about her traditions/religion and got her to tell me her generation is more open minded, asked her if she has ever had a boyfriend (has had, no small matter in this country. . .)

. . .agreed for us to meet up for a coffee soon.

Not exactly the kind of conversation that I'd recommend, but it worked haha. Just goes so show, the words don't matter. Online, the pictures do all the important communicating. In person, it's your looks, style, and touch that do all the important communicating.

The catch is that she said "Sure! I'm new in town and I don't have many friends yet."

I did not address this.

Should I just regard it as baby-babble and proceed or what?

This is actually very good news. She's new in town, so she doesn't have to worry about managing her reputation in a social circle. Don't worry about the "friends" title. It means nothing. What is she supposed to refer to you as? The guy that she could potentially sleep with?

Proceed as normal.

 

[Black]

So how should the template look like? Quickest, simplest shortest. . .

. . .or, in other words, what are the two or three questions I should be asking before setting the date up?