My current weird social rabbit hole in 2015

[SalsaChops]

"weird"

adjective, weirder, weirdest.
2. fantastic; bizarre

Hey All,

I haven't posted in quite a while, mainly because things got a little wild over this summer and I haven't had the chance to. 2015 has been an interesting year, and I'd really appreciate any thoughts the intermediate-to-advanced guys have concerning my current predicament going forward into 2016.

For those who don't know my story I'll recap a bit:

I'm a 41-year old divorced dad (amazing 5 year old daughter, divorce amicably signed last year) with a PhD in hard science and a well-paying career who's first marriage crashed and burned as a result of an addiction to escaping reality with porn, video games, and eventually prostitutes (though I didn't actually end up going through with seeing escorts until my ex moved out.) At the time I started this process at 39, I was a complete social misanthrope with basically no real friends and massive self esteem / emotional development issues. I'd compare where I started in mid 2013 to a damaged 14 year old boy in many ways (I'd peg myself now as maybe 21 and an "average guy" in this development journey who happens to be good looking. 5's and 6's occasionally throw themselves at me.) I was hazed / abused by my peers at 14 in a circle jerk prank that massively damaged my confidence, particuarly with women. I don't know if any others here can relate to this, but for me acting out with porn and/or prostitues completely destroyed my self esteem. I was anchored to pretty women being on pedestals, and the act of watching or paying felt like the ultimate form of supplication for me. It just re-enforced my old self-image as one of a man who was unworthy of the love of women who I find genuinely attractive. As a result I either don't masturbate at all, or if I do it is after more than 10 days with as little fantasizing as possible (no porn or escorts, just real women).

It turns out the only hobby I took to that helped tremendously with this was Latin partner dancing, specifically salsa, bachata, and kizomba. Between the very sensual / sexy dances and the "touchy-feely" culture of the salsa party that follows them, I was able to get more and more comfortable around people in general and beautiful women in particular, even in a sexually charged environment. That and going out almost every night just to game (from GC and a few other places) and chat people up before a salsa social started (often not until 11pm) really helped, but never completely cured me from backsliding into my addiction. That all changed in August of this year, while I was in a LA at huge festival for Latin dancing. I started to just enjoy the act of socializing in the party, and I fell in love with social dancing itself (they say it is good for the soul), and I overhear people say that I resemble an inspired artist at his craft now. I genuinely get high on dancing, particularly when I'm expressing the music that moves me creatively and re-enforcing the connection to a good partner. My previous addiction has been replaced with an addiction to dance. Sensual bachata, in particular, is a dance that can get women aroused very easily, and a really good dance can come close to sex in the good feelings and excitement it creates.

In that LA festival, I also ran into multiple opportunities to escalate with cute-to-hot women, but missed them (I'd see what to do and journal it, but miss the play in the moment). Same thing happened recently at another dance convention.

So my "rabbit hole" is this:

I love to dance so much (and I get so inspired by doing it), that I end up neglecting the other aspects of my game (deep diving, teasing and flirting, in particular) and over-providing good feelings, so the girls hook up with and date the other guys, not me. Its to the point that some people in my local salsa community (its not that big) have started recruiting "girlfriends" for me, because many of them like or admire me, but can't believe how poorly I do in getting any attraction off the dance floor.

One of those "recruits" even came along and actually dated me for about a month (Though I swear she only initiated it as the result of social pressure applied from others, but then actually felt some attraction for me because we had so much in common and had so much fun together). She played my emotions like a tune (she was very experienced with "Latin lover" types - took me two weeks and major date compression to close her out, and she even gave me LMR in the morning after sleeping in the same bed in our underwear the first time) and then "dumped" me for another guy causing some serious heartbreak (before doing so she made sure I (a) wasn't seeing anyone else and (b) was totally infatuated with her and chasing her hard).

My questions / thoughts:

I really want to continue with this hobby, but I can see that I'm really not going to get what I want (hot dancer lovers / girlfriends who dance my dance) without MAJOR improvements in my conversation skills and non-verbal congruence. I constantly overhear people calling me a "pickup artist" and "such a nice guy". Even the girl who dated me this year started our first make out session with "aww..your like a cute, cuddly bear!" wtf?! so much for being a "bad boy"....

Where do I start so I can shed this image of a "pickup artist who just gave up and started dancing instead."? I'm working on conversation, but the process is S-L-O-W. Any suggestions that helped people getting to the hook point so that they could start testing for compliance would be appreciated (I have SUCH a hard time with this it is ridiculous.) Do I just dance less and talk to people off the floor? More "natural style" day / night game talking to everyone? Does anyone have any ideas for standard "conversation savers" I can use to wise crack or get people talking again when the thing has completely stalled out? I really just want to get the point that I can sustain a 5-10 minute conversation with anyone without the fucking thing jumping the shark. I feel like I'll just be stuck at the "Journeyman" level forever (like 3-5 lays a year, with "luck", and the cuter ones departing for greener pastures) if I don't just get to a "good" level of social / conversation skills (including flirting and teasing). I'm sure I have a touch of Asperger's syndrome, so keep that in mind (I don't learn as fast or the same way a neurotypical does.)

Thanks for reading,

SalsaChops

 

[Drck]

There are two kinds of energies, feminine one and masculine one. IMO, at this time you are projecting too much feminine energy, which is not much attractive to females. You sleep with hot Latina in the same bed, and nothing happen... What is SHE suppose to think...?

So if I were you I would be more worried about the feminine energy. Being called pick up artist is not as bad as being called "such a nice guy"... Read about nice guys if you didn't yet, and see why are they having so many problems with girls...

There is nothing wrong with dancing, especially not if you really like it. It's much better to dance than sit home, do nothing and be depressed... At the same time, you are projecting too much of feminine energy. Think about it, what kind of man is dancing, expressing his feelings that way? You might be easily confused by many for being a gay... I'm not saying that you are a gay, I'm saying that you are projecting too much feminine energy, thus decreasing your natural male attraction...

So the solution is not easy. You have to jack up your masculine energy. How, I don't know, I doubt you will go to fitness and start lifting weights. Your self esteem is still low, you are still carrying the emotional issues and trauma around....

Maybe try to talk LESS for now. There is no reason to talk about everything in 10 minutes and then go blank... Chose less subjects, discuss them in more details... Take a pause, walk away, talk to other people - then come back and re-join... Let the other person talk, mostly listen (she talks 70%, you 30% at most). Don't try to impress her by your words, basically talk about what you want to talk about. See what does she like to talk about - the more she likes something, the more she will talk about it without prompting. The less she likes something, the shorter her responses will be, the more avoidant she will be. Try to avoid too many personal questions, many times it is much better to be just superficial...

Be more superficial for now - talk to one person for couple minutes, then walk away and talk to another person. Talk to bunch of other people like this, and in no time you will be perceived as very social person... It's all BS, but that's wha it is, at least you will APPEAR as social person... Find a joy in talking with others, the same way you found joy in dancing.... Once you meet a girl that you are more attracted to, and she is more attracted to you, the vibes and the whole conversations will be more natural. There will be more of natural conversation flow, normal topics about interesting things, and you will want to talk more and more without even thinking about it...

Back to feminine energy.... See, there is really not much wrong with being a Nice Guy. The problem is that Nice Guys are being rather portrayed as sort of impotent - they date and date, they express their feelings, they worry about how others perceive them, they want to do many different and exciting things, they express themselves in colorful and gentle way - but they avoid sex because they are not comfortable enough... They always postpone "things" till next time...

Bad Boys, on the other hand, take different approach. They don't care much what others think about them. They go for what they want (and all they want is sleep with that girl) and many times they are rather sloppy than smooth. They are more direct, more straight, they don't care much about how they express themselves, they are less gentle.... They project lots of masculine energy....

So try to find some good balance between feminine and masculine energy... Try to find some balance between Nice Guy and Bad Boy, there is no need to go overboard with either one - it's rather more about finding the right balance that fits your personality...

Hope some of it will help, good luck

 

[SalsaChops]

Hmm...there are high level male dancers who I know close many, many girls, and they spend their whole lives dancing including professionally. Its difficult to say those guys aren't masculine or getting poor results. Your right about the feminine energy, though. I was mostly raised by a single mom, and my father never fully role modeled how to tease and flirt with women, along with actually leading them to what you want. I still think just a little bit more on the communication & confidence side would go a long way. If I can get to the point where I can set the hook in the conversation, then the next step is to not be nice and go after what I want.

And when I got her in my bed the first time I didn't actually hear "no" or "stop". She just kept pushing my hand away or whatever.

 

[ray_zorse]

Dude it's a pretty standard story, your game needs to improve is what it amounts to. IMO where you are going wrong is equating salsa with pickup. Yes you are meeting lots of hot and sensual and fit women, you are touching them and getting physical, so it feels like you are 90% of the way to getting laid and looking for a tweak to get you the last 10%. Unfortunately no such tweak exists. Actually you are touching them platonically and engaging in shared hobbies, well guess what, my hobbies include cooking and sewing and I could attend a class in these things and meet cute and fit women and even get a bit physical with them and it would not necessarily get me laid, see what I mean? Unfortunately what you describe is social circle game and that's really difficult, I seriously tried to crack it for a year or so and got no lays even though I was regularly getting laid through daygame. One thing that is much better about day/nightgame is all situations are throwaways, so you can be bold and push hard and experiment with no risk of repercussions. Check out the newbie assignment. BTW I am 40 and 3yrs divorced with 3 kids, discovered this site at age 38.5 and learned to cold approach, so if I can then you can.
Ray

 

[SalsaChops]

I have a hard time believing sewing and cooking could make a girl moan the way they do when I dip them perfectly or such. I can also tell when they are attracted to me because we go into a kind of "trance" or "bubble" together and I can go for compliance by continually asking them to dance. I got a lay off Tinder this way.

You have a point with the social circle game, though. I have made many friends but also many "frienemies" out of the regulars in my salsa community by turing it into my social and pickup playground. The problem is that everyone gossips with everyone else, so pretty much everyone knows how I started out. That's why they keep trying to "find me a girlfriend". I'm a very polarizing figure now. People either love me or they hate me. I honestly could care less about the haters these days and just do my thing. It does, however, limit my options in the scene at times.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

SalsaChops,

Welcome back. We want to get you righted and your self confidence up so you can have health relationships. Drck and Ray are both pointing out to you that you need to make some significant changes to improve further. It seems with your responses you are fighting the idea of change. I know you have found help with the dance crowd which is awesome but they are limiting your development further. I am not saying to leave them but to look elsewhere to learn and improve. Here is some things to help.

1. Develop goals. Not just with women but where you want your life to go. Figure out the long term goals the make short term that will lead to the long term goals. You may already have these but if not do so. You should include career, relationships, financial, hobbies and bucket list items.
2. Step outside the dance social circle to meet women. Since you are older you probably will not be interested in night game at clubs. Day game is probably a better choice but there could also be social circle. Start with the Newbie assignment here viewtopic.php?f=13&t=34. Don't let the title Newbie discourage you. If truly develops the fundamentals for meeting and having good relationships with women.
3. Meditate. Find time to yourself. Your body needs mental down time to process. Meditation will reduce your stress and let your mind develop ideas.

This is a long term process. You will see progress along the way but don't expect overnight results. You will have to work at this. You have a PhD so you know about commitment and work. Consider this your next level of learning. This is just like anything else. As you progress it will feel difficult and unnatural. Then you will turn the corner and find it feels natural to approach a beautiful woman and enjoy her presence.

SGent

 

[SalsaChops]

Fellow men,

Thanks very much for all your constructive responses. I do approach outside my circle all the time, mainly at Meetups and in bars, but I'll admit I'm mostly "phoning it in" hoping to recruit these girls to dance. I'm not sure if you've seen what sensual bachata looks like, but it can be crazy sexy. It's also very validating to have hot girls asking you to dance half the night. Speaking of goals, I'll admit a big part of my artistic vision with this has been to perform and maybe even create a new genre of how people perform, so my obssession with dance goes way beyond just trying to pick up girls or date hotter ones.

That said, the lack of consistancy and dry spells flat out suck. Plus I know my self-esteem just isn't going to fully recover from this girl "dumping" me until I get another roll in the hay with one who is at least vaguely cute.

I have a form of meditation that I practice that also recirculates my sexual energy (rather than storing it or wasting it during ejaculation). The theory also says it can turn you into a multi-orgasmic man in six months. We'll see. It definitely takes away a lot of my neediness and helps me feel more calm yet alive.

More cold approach in night and day game certainly can't hurt. I got a lay on valentine's day on this bus that drives to a bunch of different bars in my town. I'm going to do it for new year's as well.

Happy Holidaze

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

Let me know how the meditation goes. I would suggest a strategy change. Approach the girls to bed them first then recruit them for dancing. The women want to have sex. You might as well give it to them then teach them how to dance.

 

[SalsaChops]

This is a really good point. I'm finding that the hot dancers are also incredibly socially savvy with tons of options. The only way to bed women like that is to work your way up with practice. Being a great dancer obviously helps, but I have to become a great seducer first. I'm not going to do that without practice.