no label "relationship" should I back off and just be fuck buddies

[letsdoit]

For 3 months I've been seeing this girl from my social circle. I’m in mid 30s, she is in her late 20s. We're both quite high social status. I was maybe a bit apprehensive and slow to move with her at first but we hit it off nevertheless. But maybe I started the dynamic a bit weak. Anyhow, by now (and for a long time already) she almost always gets in touch by her initiative. We're spending nights in each others apartments often. We've been to a few trips together where we spend 3-5 days together. When either of us is not away, then we're together 2–3 days a week. She is doing a lot of girlfriendy stuff. Cooks me food, gives me presents, plans stuff (but not too far ahead for the future), calls me dear and honey all the time (I just realised she is doing this to a lot of people though), she is very affectionate – likes to hold hands and fondle, sends me ♡ text messages, she invites me to her events and performances. We have (by accident though) met each others parents. I bang her good every time I see her and she mostly comes. She says she is blown away by the sex and it's "magical".

But she doesn't want labels and want to be called my girlfriend. I haven't brought it up (as I know this is womens area), but other people around us ask as they see us together often and bring it up and it's odd then how to react to that or how to answer when we're standing there together and someone asks. I've seeing some other red flags too. She lets people to hit on her when we're out together and she sometimes disappears a bit while we're out together. I've been with many hot girls before and I know when a girl is really into you, she makes sure, it's seen that she is with you and so other guys won't really hit on her (at least too much), so it would not turn me off.

While being drunk then something came up, as our mutual friend split something out about her and some other dude and then she became mad at him for telling. She later told me though that she really likes how things are going now between us and she doesn’t see why we would need to talk about anything.

By now she has talked to me quite a lot about her family. (Not so much about exes. Some things about the ex a while ago but not anything about someone that might still going on now as well). And she knows quite a lot about my family, not really about exes.

Anyhow, we’ve been having unprotected sex for around 1,5 months now as how she acted, I kind of assumed we’re exclusive. But I recently discovered something on myself that might refer to a STD. I went to the doctor, will receive the results in a few days. Haven’t told her anything yet. Damn, I’ve even given her head quite a few times.

I also discovered now, she dumped her previous ex in quite a drama manner. I think they became too homely and she dumped his ass. This is just a random assumption though based on my life knowledge and I don't know almost anything. And after that and I think until now she is having a special someone in her apartment building who she is very sweet to and she was also together with for a while. It seems they still are to a degree. I think they might be also fucking. Also, I don't know for sure. But for her not wanting to put any labels on anything and based on some things I've accidentally heard.

So, I don’t know…. I guess I should be OK with this? Just go out and hook up with other girls? Not be a boyfriend and girlfriend = no relationship = allowed to do whatever we want. Thing is, I don’t have anyone else on rotation right now. Well, maybe some but I've sort of ended with them. So, I should literally go and seduce someone new. I know there’s girls interested in me though, so I know I could pull it off easily. Not so sure if I have any LTR prospects in the radar at this very moment, but fuck buddies or casual things I could find easily.

Just convert her to fuck buddy and not do anything with her that would get me further more attached? I could be OK with sharing a fuck buddy but I don’t want to share someone I’m developing feelings to. And I do have feelings for her by now. And by the way she acts, she has feelings for me too. It’s confusing.

But it seems she is hinting she wants to go travel or move away at some point in spring. She has been hinting me to be in her plans short term, but not long term plans, she hasn’t really involved me. Am I not boyfriend material to her? But she does want one, so she is doing girlfriendy stuff to me just in temporary basis? She is trying to decide who to hook up with long term, so I should continue doing what I’m doing? We’ve been hooking up for 3 months though, so isn’t this enough time for her to decide? She has become closer though and it feels pretty damn intimate now. But the other day last week, someone asked about us again who had seen us in the beginning of our hookup. And she turned quite cold and said “this is unconfortable and that we don’t want labels”. Even if I would not want labels, then this feels still as a turnoff. I fucked her good the same night and had a nice trip. But after coming back, I became to wonder whether I’m wasting my emotional capacity.

I’m not really there in my mindset right now to be Alpha 2.0 with bunch of MLTRs + FBs. Managing FBs seems easy but I'm having difficult when MLTRS or OLTRs come into the picture to juggle between them. I have juggled some MLTRs in the past (who didn't know about each other) and it was quite a mess and emotionally exhausting. Did I probably make a mistake to upgrade her to OLTR too soon in my mind, when she thinks she is a MLTR but really she should be a FB.

I know I’m now in danger of getting quite attached or to get an oneitis but after my bad breakup two years ago, after what I took the red pill. I know I cannot be really hurt again and I have my pride. So, I’m thinking whether I should back way off at least a bit to keep it casual. Say something on the lines of that the two of us were going too fast and you need to back off a little bit?

I would not mind trying her out as a girlfriend but I don't want to go faster than her and become a one down in this "relationship". Being with her for sure gets me further attached as she acts so girlfriendy, but then here and there dropping some red flag bombs that indicate for me that she doesn't qualify as a no drama good girlfriend or maybe any girlfriend at all.
I've been doing my best to act in a non need outcome independent manner, although I've had my few slip-ups when she has thrown an unexpected curveball test towards me out of the blue.

We should be going on a two week trip next week (with friends though but still). Thinking maybe I should back off from that, saying some work stuff came up. It actually has come up too.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey letsdoit,

Sorry to read about this. If your intuition and other various facts tell you that she's having sex on the side, then she probably is.

If I read correctly the dynamics going on, it's completely backward of how it should be.

• (*) She decides when to meet ("in touch by her initiative")
  (*) She makes plans - some involving you, and some others not involving you
  (*) She has options
  (*) You depend on her for sex

You're way too available and invested, she's in control, and you depend on her. It should be the exact other way around: you're the man in charge, you decide when to meet, you make the plans, you have options, you don't depend on her for your happiness, and she's more invested than you are. It is not only the best for yourself, it's also the masculine profile the most attractive to women.

If you want to turn things around, you should be immediately working on reversing the dynamics, asap, by pulling back immediately. This doesn't mean stopping the relationship. You still see her, but less often, and you invest yourself less:

• (*) You make yourself scarce. Don't be always available. She calls for coming at your place on Wednesday? "Sorry darling, I just agreed on some plans with my buddies."
  (*) You decide when to meet, not her - "Hey darling, Wednesday I'm not available. Let's do it next week on Monday instead."
  (*) And start seeing other girls immediately. Suddenly you're not as needy around her. She will feel it. You're not afraid of losing her anymore. She will feel it. Both will have immediate impact on her attraction for you.

If you manage to implement the above, you stand a good chance of reversing the dynamic. You're scarce? She might start chasing you. She might start wondering if you have other options. Both positives. You retake control of the decisions? Wow, you're the one leading. Another positive. You see other girls? Nothing more attractive than a guy that all other women want, or a guy who doesn't depend on her for his happiness.

If you go that route, expect a bumpy ride, because of all the wrong expectations and precedents that you have already set in your relationship with her.

But in my opinion, this is what you need to do in order to turn around the situation. it is worth putting in the effort.

Good luck!
Seppuku

 

[letsdoit]

Thanks for the reply.
You're not all correct though.

Not sure if she has sex on the side. Frankly, I would think not. But yeah, now I'm not sure. Yeah, I guess it's probable.
I mean we're not exclusive. Hadn't had any talk about it. I guess she might have a sexual relationship with some dude in her apartment building. I think they've been seeing each other for a while but that is not serious either, as she is now obviously seeing me too and she does not mind me hanging out in her apartment building all the time.

She doesn't decide when to meet. I just let her to get in touch and then set up a meeting. I don't get in touch myself too much. I think that's how it should be. That a woman makes 80% of the chasing/getting in touch and that's how it is by now. And I've turned down many offers and "blown her off" a few times when I couldn't make it.
She doesn't make plans exclusively. I make as well. That's about 50%-50%. It's just that I'm a bit turned off to make plans now. And she does involve me in almost everything. I think even oddly much when taking into consideration she does not want to be called girlfriend-boyfriend.
Except really long term plans. Like 6 months+ long. But maybe that's normal.
She does have options as many good looking and interesting girls have.
Yeah, currently I depend on her on sex. I just would not want to bang other girls if she is not. As we're already having non-protected sex every time we see each other. Meaning lately 4-5 times a week. I could start again banging other girls. or maybe just start hanging out with them more again in a flirty manner.

I'm already acting in a non-needy manner but yeah I have done my slip-ups, sure.

 

[letsdoit]

It's just that it's been like 3 months or something since we hooked up and by now I would have thought she has fallen for me and wants to be exclusive. If not now, then when? I guess never? And we've been hooking up pretty intensely lately that it's soon the end of honeymoon period? haha. I've sensed she being more and more intimate though lately and acting more and more girlfriendy. But then blowing it again, when someone asks...

It's just odd when I think about it. We've been to many very public events together. We've even been seen on some paparazzi photos together. Our friends assume we're together etc. So if she doesn't want the label, is this so she can have some secret other lover or keep her options open, when someone "better" comes along. Or so she doesn't need to break up in that case, when she does want to go away at some point. Or she had a traumatic past relationship ending. I do think she was the one to call it off though.

I am not against labels myself. I can still always call it off, it's not I will marry someone.

In my previous relationships, all girls wanted to be exclusive with me long before. But yeah, I started the dynamic from a weak position with this one and later course corrected. So I guess now it's a rougher road this time around... In my previous relationships, I always had a few options before and I just made a choice to go with one. And the one knew about the others...

This time there wasn't anyone involved I really wanted long term. I was fucking a few others though. But she didn't knew about them.

I guess the only road is to start fucking other girls again. And see what happens with this one. I just find it hard to juggle many girls on rotation. When I do, it's always quite an effort. Especially our town being so small. Fuck buddies who to see rarely – yeah but when there's more, it's pretty hard.
It would be easier if I'd be sure she is fucking other guys. And when I would already have proper things on rotation. Going out and hooking up out of the blue feels like cheating for me.

I was not at all so invested even a few days ago. I even thought about missing out on other gals. But when I found out about this possible other dude (all the while she was more and more affectionate) my whole mindset flipped again.

 

[ProblemSolving]

I would bet money that she is NOT banging anyone else. Girls that are chasing that hard, don't even think about it. It doesn't matter what you call the relationship - pay attention to her actions, not her words. She's acting just like a girlfriend does. She probably thinks you're exclusive already, so there's no need to verbalize it. I've run into this with girls before, they never asked to be girlfriends, but they just ASSUMED we were exclusive.

This is relationship is in good shape, but your abundance mentality is pretty weak right now. You keep making mountains out of mole hills with this girl. Go approach some girls, get some numbers, and put your mind at ease.

 

[letsdoit]

Well, she is not chasing that hard maybe but yeah, she is somewhat.

I just find it difficult to be sweet to her while emotionally not getting more involved/attached or trying to distance myself from this "relationship" arrangement.

It's not that I cannot score other chicks. I can. But it's just that I seem to really be emotionally invested in one at a time. Just sex wise, of course there can be many.

It's not that I want a wife and kids and a house. I'm also in favour of exploring, traveling the world etc. not sure if i'd want kids at all. But also favour honesty and communication. I also like to think I'd be okay with some poly-arrangement as monogamous relationship doesn't seem to really work long term. But in ideal world I'd still like to find a partner in crime, a team mate to do fun things with and share the path.

I've only been doing hookups for 2 years after my last LTR and I think it would be cool to be in a relationship with someone special. Was my screening radar off?

Chase also recommended to date girls who are not partying. Well this one is quite hard and often. It's fun to do it together but is this really sustainable?

 

[ProblemSolving]

Here's how you tell if she's chasing:

If she contacts you 80% or more of the time. (The more she contacts you, the better. It means you're on her mind and she wants to make sure you're not with other girls)

When you propose a date, she shows up enthusiastically.

When you meet her, you have enthusiastic sex.

If she ticks those boxes, you're good to go. If she is chasing, it should be 100% obvious that she really digs you and isn't going behind your back. I think your scarcity is making you paranoid. I was the same way when I was first started getting a handle on making girls chase - freaking out over minor shit even when they were already chasing.

Before, you were paranoid because she didn't ask you any personal questions and now you're paranoid because she hasn't defined the relationship. If she is actually chasing you, you can even flat out ask her: "Just want some clarification babe. Is this an exclusive or open relationship?" Often, this question is only brought up when one person suspects that the other might be seeing someone else. If she never suspects that you're seeing other girls, then she'll never even bring it up.

You don't have to bang other girls to get your abundance mentality back. Just go cold approach some girls and grab some numbers. It will put your mind at ease, so you can stop flipping out about this petty stuff.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey man,

You're not all correct though.

Alright.

Not sure if she has sex on the side. Frankly, I would think not. But yeah, now I'm not sure. Yeah, I guess it's probable.
I mean we're not exclusive. Hadn't had any talk about it. I guess she might have a sexual relationship with some dude in her apartment building. I think they've been seeing each other for a while but that is not serious either, as she is now obviously seeing me too and she does not mind me hanging out in her apartment building all the time.

I tend to think that if your intuition is telling you things, there's usually a reason for this. Also, as you correctly say, if a girl is really with you, she won't make herself too available for approach by other guys. There is, at least, cause for doubt.

She doesn't decide when to meet. I just let her to get in touch and then set up a meeting. I don't get in touch myself too much. I think that's how it should be. That a woman makes 80% of the chasing/getting in touch and that's how it is by now. And I've turned down many offers and "blown her off" a few times when I couldn't make it.

OK that sounds good. It the correct chase dynamics.

She does have options as many good looking and interesting girls have.

Sure, they always have. But I meant here you have this lingering doubt. Even if most of the rest seems fine.

The pitfall to avoid is her, being too secure in the relationship. I think, like ProblemSolving does, that you should go and create some options for yourself. That would restore the balance in your relationship. You keep your current girl as your girlfriend, and see others on the side - very casually. You will regain confidence in yourself, you will feel less dependent on your girl, less afraid to lose her, she will feel it and it will actually boost your relationship. If she's less sure about having you, she might be the one asking exclusivity.

Also, from times to times, it's good to "pull back" a little bit. Just less available, more scarce, than you usually are. If in correct dose, it will increase her chasing and attraction.

Anyway man, good luck to you!
Cheers,
Seppuku
PS. I see you using the term "Alpha 2.0". If you read Blackdragon's blog, you should look his article on "de facto monogamy".

 

[letsdoit]

We've recently been on 1,5 week trip together where we were together pretty much nonstop and I think things have been going pretty good and brought us closer together.

But I've also now found out about her situation a bit more. She was in a live-in boyfriend-girlfriend relationship two years ago but broke it off as probably got bored and the boyfriend got too controlling. After this she got into another relationship that was completely different. The guy is a model and a poly dude, seeing 5-6 girls openly on rotation. She supposedly broke it off (not sure if completely as they're still "good friends") at some point, as she didn't get enough from him and couldn't deal with the jealousy and mixed feelings. Saying she only got 20% of his time. And she would want to be together with someone fully to grow together. Just before meeting me and I also think overlapping meeting me up until even a few weeks ago, she was seeing him from time to time. They live in the same apartment building and she occasionally goes to his place. Saying they're still good friends. I know the dude wanted to continue his arrangement to have her on rotation with 4 other chicks, but the girl wanted more. Then they tried to just have it without feelings as fuck buddies, but I guess that didn't work. She said she was thinking to just be alone for a while after that relationship, but then I came along.

She told me this during one drunken night. Still didn't ask shit about my previous relationships.
One a side note, when she is wasted she is way more open and affectionate.

Bottom line is, I think she still has unresolved feelings for him. And he didn't want to break it off either. But since she didn't get enough from him, she put breaks on the relationship arrangement.

I did a full STD check and thing seem to be fine but I will get full results tomorrow. Still thinking to ask her about exclusivity as we're having sex without a condom for a while already.

After being a reader of the Blackdragon blog. I don't want to be the guy to get monogamous with a chick and then when the NRE wears off, she would be back with the poly dude in no time.

She totally acts as a girlfriend still but again, when someone asks, it gets bloody weird. Last time someone asked if we're together (and actually proposed a foursome, haha) I told them we haven't decided yet about being together. I don't know if that's the case but if one doesn't want to put any label on it after 3-4 months (it's not that I ask her to marry me, I have my doubts about her as well), then she probably has some other motives? Like making the poly guy jealous or just using me as a safety net for easy intimacy while looking for someone that fits her criteria for new boyfriend?

I know my solution would be getting out and just making other options for myself. At the last party I was at, I actually was hit on by two girls I really dug. But it's just hard for me to concentrate on more girls. She was also at that party, so I didn't do anything. So I guess I should go out alone more. It's just that I'm super busy right now and don't have a lot of time right now.

Any more feedback would be highly appreciated

 

[ProblemSolving]

Just before meeting me and I also think overlapping meeting me up until even a few weeks ago, she was seeing him from time to time.

There's been a lot of assuming going on with this relationship. This girl isn't acting like she's getting some on the side, but if you're suspicious why not get some clarity so you can move on with your life without all this suspicion? Just ask her if it's an open relationship already and be happy either way. If she wants exclusivity, then you get what you want, and you can stop all this worrying. If it's open, then be happy that you're free to bang other chicks with impunity or you can just stop seeing her. If this girl is chasing you, you won't lose attraction by asking the question.

The way your relationship is now, YOU are the one worrying about the relationship when it should be the other way around.

So I guess I should go out alone more. It's just that I'm super busy right now and don't have a lot of time right now.

This is really the heart of the problem, I believe. Scarcity will make you paranoid about everything your girl says and does. Try to find some time to hit on some other girls, or you're scarcity will find something else to worry about.

 

[Seppuku]

Hey letsdoit,

After being a reader of the Blackdragon blog. I don't want to be the guy to get monogamous with a chick and then when the NRE wears off, she would be back with the poly dude in no time.

This is exactly what this reminds me of. BD mentions about all these girls that leave him to try a "stable" monogamous relationship elsewhere but eventually always end up returning back to him.

Bottom line is, I think she still has unresolved feelings for him. And he didn't want to break it off either. But since she didn't get enough from him, she put breaks on the relationship arrangement.

Also what you mention, when people ask about your relationship status, and then she's weird. She doesn't behave like she fully belongs to you in her mind. So this might be the correct intuition about the situation.

From a practical standpoint I agree with ProblemSolving. Ask her if this is an open relationship (you and her), and be happy either way.

I know my solution would be getting out and just making other options for myself

Yes you need it urgently. You're overinvested, and very much outcome dependent. If your intuition of the situation turns true, you're in for a hard landing. You urgently need to deinvest (a little) and see other girls. It's just OK, you're having a little fun on the side, good for the morale, for the self esteem and the alpha vibe!

And maybe then she'll be the one coming to you and asking for exclusivity - this should always be coming from the girl.

OK man! Keep us posted.

Cheers
Seppuku

 

[letsdoit]

Thanks for your replies guys! This is very helpful!
Yeah, it certainly feels my intuition seems more right when I think about it.

That BlackDragon comment seem really point on. I would like to avoid that in all cost. I really don't want to have another heart break after my big one 2 years ago. That sucked man.
So yeah, I need to skill and toughen up and create new nice options for myself (like I used to have actually).

I probably have done enough things wrong with her, so I'm behind schedule for her feelings/attraction level to grow into 8-9-ish level or maybe even missed a point for that (?).
I've had some health problems and probably been complaining about them a bit too much and some other shit.
All my other girls who I got into relationship at some point in the past, by 4 months they were totally into me. Asking to move in with them etc.
But back then I always had options and made a choice to choose them.

I found out today I have an internal bacterial infection that might have started just about the time I started sleeping with her without a condom. It's not really an STD but needs treatment and might have affected us both. Not sure who got it from who. So, I anyhow have to talk to her now about that thing. As she needs to be checked as well. And now I anyway have to have sex with condom for a month at least...
I guess the right way to go about it, is to mention the possibility of open relationship but not mention the concrete other dude, right?

We were together for every day for 1,5 weeks now as we were on a trip (with friends but still).
I think in the end she showed to be more and more affectionate and closer to me.
She initiated the talk about her past relationship and wishes from relationships in general that she had been avoiding so far.
But then again "blowing it" and acting still weird when someone asked how long we have been together.
So I think her feelings to me are maybe growing but she also has unresolved feelings towards her ex and all in all about us and etc.

I find it hard to not let my feelings to grow as I got used to my previous girlfriends to fall for me heavily and me reflect that back. I need to take a step back.

She does enjoy our sex life though and keeps complimenting me about it.
On the other hand, after our trip together. She maybe seems too much of a crazy party girl to consider a stable relationship with anyhow. I dunno.
I like to party too, but there's some limits that I'd like my girl to do. haha.

There's bunch of events coming up next week. Some where she asked me, some what she chose from the events that I proposed that we could go to (my friend is doing a festival).
Should I at least consciously try to see her less?

If I look at the random indicator about her interest level/ potential loving feelings. I get pretty medium score. Doesn't seem too good.
http://www.how2getagirlfriend.com/my-gi ... or-not.php

She Will Call You Up More Often Than You Call Her.
Ok ✔. But I deliberately don't call her almost at all. Or initiate texting.

She Gives Without You Asking
That's a ✔ I think

She Treats You Like A Baby
No

She Gets Angry With You
No

She Gets Jealous Whenever You Talk To Other Girls
I think NO. I haven't really approached too many other girls when I have been with her though.

She Does Not Flirt With Other Guys
I think she does. At least when I was out with my previous girlfriend, she always made an effort to be seen with me. So no guys really approached her (She was gorgeous). Now, the new girl gets hit on left and right. And the only time, she really came to me for "rescue" was once a guy was totally feeling her up.

 

[ProblemSolving]

She Treats You Like A Baby
No

Irrelevant.

She Gets Jealous Whenever You Talk To Other Girls
I think NO. I haven't really approached too many other girls when I have been with her though.

So...you don't know.

She Does Not Flirt With Other Guys
I think she does. At least when I was out with my previous girlfriend, she always made an effort to be seen with me. So no guys really approached her (She was gorgeous). Now, the new girl gets hit on left and right. And the only time, she really came to me for "rescue" was once a guy was totally feeling her up.

This is normal. If you go to a party that your girl invited you to, you should not expect 100% of her attention. Of course she's going to talk and laugh with all her guy and girlfriends. She's not there to baby sit you. I've been to parties where it was 90% dudes and of course my girl would socialize with other guys - not a big deal though. I just chatted up a few of her girlfriends that were there, and once my girl saw what was going down, she stayed glued to my lap for the rest of the night haha.

The only thing shady about this girl is her evasiveness when asked about your relationship and that could be for many different reasons. Asking her if the relationship is open will solve these problems.

Theses reason why you felt secure in your past relationships and why you feel so insecure in this one is because, like you said, you had other options in the past. When you have options, you're unshakable and when you don't...well you worry about anything and everything. When scarcity flares up, your girl could be a nun at a convent and you'd worry that she was banging the 90 year old priest. Getting some positive attention from other girls will help you see things more clearly.

 

[letsdoit]

Haha, thanks for that ProblemSolving.
That was helpful.

 

[letsdoit]

I got really sick now and she came over and really took care of me. Mentioning how it was weird to sleep alone after we've slept together for two weeks during the trip.
I guess that's pretty high interest?
I think she might be fighting the relationship a bit as she didn't want to be in one. But I'm a bit irresistible, hehe.
She is still hanging out sometimes with his previous poly dude. So not sure that to think of it.

On the upside, I approached some girls and got my mojo back.

 

[Shadow]

Letsdoit,

I've been there done that - I think I can just sum up the comments so far. You're over invested, she's got into your emotional brain she is the #1 thing you are thinking about WHILE trying to look like you are not. This will melt your brain. It seems you know what you need to do, but you are just too scared not to fuck it up (again too invested, outcome dependent). Take 2-3-4-5 steps back, go to a few parties/bars, talk to as many girls as you can, flirt a bit and reboot your brain. You'll do yourself & her a favour.

https://www.girlschase.com/content/cant- ... more-girls - there's a reason this is a top article Happens to everyone all the time.

p.s. it's hard, but the right decisions usually are.

 

[letsdoit]

Hey Shadow,

Thanks man.
Actually, that's what I've been doing lately and everything has seem to fallen into place mentally and physically for the time being at least.