None of the Sexual Gambits work

[James D]

I'll leave some quick food for thought for everybody here, including the OP:

A) Picture that you are a very intelligent, fun, good-looking woman who always gets men's attention.
That woman obvioulsly has the pick of the litter.

B) Now take a long hard look at who you are right now.

Now the question:
As that woman, would you date yourself?

The answer to that question is definitely eye-opening.

Took a screenshot of that for regular reference.

 

[Renegade]

Gentlemen,

I must apologize for my absence. I have been very busy lately.

First and foremost, I must state that after reading through all the comments, there is not ONE, NOT A SINGLE ONE I disagree with. That's awesome. And there seems to be no other disagreement between authors. This is something OP should take into account. He is free to act as he please, but my advice is for him to take the advice with an open mind and see how it works.

Anyway, I wish to share my few cents, perhaps even share some insights on how I do things and point out how my style differs to OP's. But before I do so, I must agree with @Skills - even though some techniques have been proven to work by others, it may not always work for one particular person. I accept this and thats a fact of life. And the good news is that there is an arsenal of other techniques out there to play with. If sex talk, despite the advice provided in this thread simply won't work for OP, then so be it. I am way past that point where I feel the need to shove down my game onto people.

However, in many cases, a technique (as a whole, not just a gambit) will fail to work because certain fundamentals are not yet fully in check. I have, since the beginning advocated sex talk for intermediate, ideally higher intermediates, and advanced players. Yes some beginners might pull it off (usually the easier gambits) if they have certain favourable preconditions, but yeah...

In many cases, the best advice is to leave the sex talk aside, manage to get success without it, and then try it again. In most cases, the person will experience more success upon a second try, this time with more experience. Very in-line with @Chase's suggestions.

Now, onto my observations, which do not really contradict any of those already pointed out by others.




Being frustrated, or coming off as frustrated is not equivalent to prizability, in fact, I even think it has the opposite effect. I understand that the OP intends to use "frustration" as a way to transition into sex talk. In theory, it sounds ok, but does it work in practice, or more specifically, does this way (the OP's way) of doing it prove successful?

First let us recap a few things: the whole point of sex talk is to set frames. What frame is he setting here? This is the question. Relatedly, sex talk is all about conveying sexual expertize, sexual prowess, sexual understanding - mostly positive things. What does coming off as frustrated/angry convey? This is a rethorical question. Conveying frustration or angry is not positive and will not result in any positive effect, even if that conveyed frustration was not intended. And surely, the OP both seems frustrated (and angry) and even claim to be so himself. It is very likely that this is what he conveys. It won't work.

Remember that language has an impact on her, psychologically and neurologically. The words you use elicit emotions. Talking about frustration and anger, and negative things, will trigger those exact emotions in women. Some call it hypnosis, other call is neuro-semantics. The point is, emotions are elicited by both verbal content and delivery (think of the obscure term "state projection" or "mental state transfer"), and if you convey negative emotions, you elicit negative emotions. And the response you will get will NOT be favourable.

Being genuine (and true to yourself, and how you feel) is all good and nice - it leads to congruence. But really, if being genuine means conveying negativity, and elicit bad emotions, then do not be shocked about the response you receive. I think one has to be a bit of a social cameleon and try to think of the rules of the social when interacting. Being genuine, if of importane to you, should mostly concern your core values - not the full (and explicit) expression of your inner mental states (that I think you should work on). Some thing can and should remain private.

But let us take a step back. Because I may be a bit guilty for the OP's strategic choices. I have, at times hinted at using negativity as a mean to transition to sex talk- as a "bait".

Heck I even had a gambit called the frustration gambit, where I talk about supposedly negative things such as sexual frustration to not only transition into sex talk, but also convey my message. However, the message is overall positive. I talk about frustration as a way to catch their attention, and then I discuss frustration as a being a two-sided coin:
- Frustrated from not being satisfied and being left wanting more
- Frustrated from being satisfied and left wanting more.

Here is MY transition to the gambit:



And and now I introduce the gambit.




And here is the final message of the gambit



Contrast this with your gambit, and your delivery. In my opinion, it is quite different fro mine.

Few things to notice here:
- I may start of with talking about frustration, which is a negative term, but I always do so from a place of excitement and positivity. When I talk about sex with women, I am passionate about it - because I freaking love it. I am engaged, intrigued and captivated by the subject. Compare this to your vibe.
- Even though I start of with discussing frustration, I do NOT drag on to it, nor am I emphasizing the negative aspect. It was an attention grab - a bait, and only that. In your cases, it seems like you succeeded at this with your strategy - you caught their attention - you baited. But instead of using this opening to gradually get into more positive stuff, you kept dragging onto it... and eventually you ended up simply eliciting those negative states. Mentioning the word "frustration" or "anger" won't elicit a negative state (or at least not much), but dragging on about it WILL.
- The contrasting - I quickly contrast the negative with something positive and desirable. The negative, although rather weak (due to being briefly mentioned and never overly emphasized), can serve as a good point of contact to the positive elements that I eventually wish to convey. I am moving toward positivity as the gambit goes on. This contrasting element makes the positive element shine.
- An element of "pacing" - I talk about things they resonate with. I think you are attempting to do the same thing, but are you sure that the frustration, based on your frame, is not just a mere projection of yourself onto them, rather than trying to mirror them/pace teir reality. This is a key question that you must reflect upon.

Also note, that the "sexual frustration gambit" is one of the more advanced ones. It requires good verbal control.

You can see this in other gambits. The sex is unfair gambit is another one. In this one, I would catch women's attention with something negative (but not delivered in a negative tone - never!) - that "sex is unfair" because women get slut-shamed and all that - which they can resonate with (pacing! - they know it is not my frustration talking, but theirs), but more importantly, I always end on a positive not, for instance that it is unfair, and that things shouldn't be this way, but that we can imagine a better world and all that crap. The positivity, or the positive element, does not always have to be explicit - it can also be implicit, like in this case, where they see a man who finally understands their reality.

The reality you projected, however, was not theirs, but your own, filled with frustration and resentement.

This is very in-line with my concept of bait and subversion - where you trigger, or bait a reaction, based on something provocative - at times even negative, and then... you subvert it. That's the hook.

You, my friend, do seem to "bait", but do not seem to subvert anything.

Also, note: this technique of "subverting" requires good verbal control and good delivery, and good calibration.

Maybe, after all, sex talk is not your sticking point here, but rather your choice of transition technique. Good news though: there are other ways to transition into sex talk. Using proxies is the safest and easiest way - and in my opinion one of the best ways to do it.


Condencending talk right here. You can think these things, but do not expect women to react well to this when expressed overtly.

Also are you talking about their frustration as a wat mean to pace their reality, or are just you talking about your own? Likely the latter.



Force-framing rarely works, FYI. Exception is, when you already have massive compliance.

Also, not much of a message of hope is being conveyed or any positive resolution being presented here. This is not sex talk, this is rant talk.

Or to use your term for it: "vent talk"



And as your experience have showed you, it does not seem to work. It never will.



Both. The gambit presented here is terrible. But it is not my gambit.

Best,
Teevster

Thank you for such a detailed reply,. I also respect that you didn't get that defensive.

I chose frustration for a reason, so you're right about the pacing point. The reason why I chose frustraion as the bridge to the gambit was that, as you mentioned, some girls resonate with this emotion deeply.

The girl I acted most frustrated with, has repeatedly expressed how frustrated she was with finding a partner, and how frustrated she is with her current one. So I wanted to unlock those emotions in her.

Also in my experience, especially the smarter girls tend to disagree with the content of the gambits. They're like "no, it's not that difficult to please us" or "no, girls aren't really frustrated". Or even "I wouldn¨t generalise this much". Which leaves me looking like I'm close minded and just had experience with a certain type of a woman.

And finally, if frustration is not the correct vibe in most of your gambits: I wonder what the correct emotion is. Because from my experience, once you start telling those stories, girls are like:

"what is bro yapping on about".

Basically they don't get why you talk so much. What is the purpose. What are you trying to prove or whatever.

Especially since we should follow the Law of least effort, suddenly talking so much just seems incongruent and try-hard.

I get the feeling that girls will like a guy despite him using these gambits, not thanks to using them. But feel free to correct me. maybe I'm missing the emotion behind all of this. And maybe your girls aren't wondering "why is he telling me all this?".

 

[Skills]

Anyway, I wish to share my few cents, perhaps even share some insights on how I do things and point out how my style differs to OP's. But before I do so, I must agree with @Skills - even though some techniques have been proven to work by others, it may not always work for one particular person. I accept this and thats a fact of life. And the good news is that there is an arsenal of other techniques out there to play with. If sex talk, despite the advice provided in this thread simply won't work for OP, then so be it. I am way past that point where I feel the need to shove down my game onto people.

Wait, if you see my next post, i had no idea, this was not one of your gambits, as i said before if he was FREESTYLING, or making shit up, how is that field testing your routine??? Again, i had people do the same with my stuff, that is not how field testing is done...


He is calling being "authentic" following a script.... there are ways to be AUTHENTIC, following a script, for example i did that with the 8 orgasms routine, and some other stuff tailoring to my style but the CONTENT, it was yours, the same with lover provider and others... But i can take that liberty cause i been laying women, and it took my over 5 years to actually get what you were doing (true story)....

Mystery in his book encourage guys to find ways to dhv based on their own accomplishment,...

being authentic is cope anyways, being authentic = being status quote vs maximizing odds...

I think op is thinking either being himself, which is what he is not getting laid, vs optimizing... And yes unfortunately for optimazing you need at the early stages a script what op calls unauthentic due to you need some type of road mad that has been FIELD TESTED AND PROVEN BY A LOT OF PEOPLE....

^ That is the whole point of the community....

op for reference take a look at this:

The fallacy of seduction success part 3 - What is optimal??

First definition: "best; most likely to bring success or advantage: Several treatment sessions are required in order to obtain optimal results. Conditions in the chamber are optimal for diffusion, reaching very high temperatures. Synonym the best or most effective possible in a particular...

www.skilledseducer.com

for sex talk if you want a dumb down guide here is a video:

By the way on the topic of being authentic, we call that natural game... many guys teach that, there are guys that focus on being AUTHENTIC, one is Steve Jabba he actually used the nickname authentic pua....... And the other was Mark Manson..... Both are a bit of guys that are not in the field for YEARS and is NO OPTIMAL right now... If you want to learn natural game, learn natural and then come back to the script/gambits that are a bit more advance onces you got couple of lays..... Again no need to do that process, i already and others done that and you can start with routine base (i kind of disagree with teevester on being advance, just don't freestyle or be autistic)....

Try out a comfort based routine such as these ones:

- Sex Talk: The Submission Gambit (has this "female empowerment" element to it that they like these days)

- Sex Talk Gambit: Women's Sexual Subjectification (same as above)

- Sex Talk: The Purity Gambit (same as above)

- "Self-Control Is Sexy": A Sex Talk Gambit (Turn Her On!) (safety)

- How to Know If a Girl Likes Oral or Anal Sex: The Pleasure of Sex Gambit (for some reasons this one works always - probably due to its implicit pro-gay narrative and its implicit anti-heteronormative essence - the fuck do i know).

- Making a Girl Trust & Feel Comfortable with You (Seduction Gambit) (pure sexual comfort - prob the gambit I had the most success with in 2023)

- Sex Talk Gambits: Interhuman Relations (probably because it has some pan-sexual elements)

I would start with this one if i were you:

- Making a Girl Trust & Feel Comfortable with You (Seduction Gambit) (pure sexual comfort - prob the gambit I had the most success with in 2023)

 

[Renegade]

Wait, if you see my next post, i had no idea, this was not one of your gambits, as i said before if he was FREESTYLING, or making shit up, how is that field testing your routine??? Again, i had people do the same with my stuff, that is not how field testing is done...


He is calling being "authentic" following a script.... there are ways to be AUTHENTIC, following a script, for example i did that with the 8 orgasms routine, and some other stuff tailoring to my style but the CONTENT, it was yours, the same with lover provider and others... But i can take that liberty cause i been laying women, and it took my over 5 years to actually get what you were doing (true story)....

Mystery in his book encourage guys to find ways to dhv based on their own accomplishment,...

being authentic is cope anyways, being authentic = being status quote vs maximizing odds...

I think op is thinking either being himself, which is what he is not getting laid, vs optimizing... And yes unfortunately for optimazing you need at the early stages a script what op calls unauthentic due to you need some type of road mad that has been FIELD TESTED AND PROVEN BY A LOT OF PEOPLE....

^ That is the whole point of the community....

op for reference take a look at this:

The fallacy of seduction success part 3 - What is optimal??

First definition: "best; most likely to bring success or advantage: Several treatment sessions are required in order to obtain optimal results. Conditions in the chamber are optimal for diffusion, reaching very high temperatures. Synonym the best or most effective possible in a particular...

www.skilledseducer.com

for sex talk if you want a dumb down guide here is a video:

By the way on the topic of being authentic, we call that natural game... many guys teach that, there are guys that focus on being AUTHENTIC, one is Steve Jabba he actually used the nickname authentic pua....... And the other was Mark Manson..... Both are a bit of guys that are not in the field for YEARS and is NO OPTIMAL right now... If you want to learn natural game, learn natural and then come back to the script/gambits that are a bit more advance onces you got couple of lays..... Again no need to do that process, i already and others done that and you can start with routine base (i kind of disagree with teevester on being advance, just don't freestyle or be autistic)....

Try out a comfort based routine such as these ones:

- Sex Talk: The Submission Gambit (has this "female empowerment" element to it that they like these days)

- Sex Talk Gambit: Women's Sexual Subjectification (same as above)

- Sex Talk: The Purity Gambit (same as above)

- "Self-Control Is Sexy": A Sex Talk Gambit (Turn Her On!) (safety)

- How to Know If a Girl Likes Oral or Anal Sex: The Pleasure of Sex Gambit (for some reasons this one works always - probably due to its implicit pro-gay narrative and its implicit anti-heteronormative essence - the fuck do i know).

- Making a Girl Trust & Feel Comfortable with You (Seduction Gambit) (pure sexual comfort - prob the gambit I had the most success with in 2023)

- Sex Talk Gambits: Interhuman Relations (probably because it has some pan-sexual elements)

I would start with this one if i were you:

- Making a Girl Trust & Feel Comfortable with You (Seduction Gambit) (pure sexual comfort - prob the gambit I had the most success with in 2023)

Thanks for the links, I'll check everything out and test it.

When it comes to authenticity,

Wait, if you see my next post, i had no idea, this was not one of your gambits, as i said before if he was FREESTYLING, or making shit up, how is that field testing your routine??? Again, i had people do the same with my stuff, that is not how field testing is done...


He is calling being "authentic" following a script.... there are ways to be AUTHENTIC, following a script, for example i did that with the 8 orgasms routine, and some other stuff tailoring to my style but the CONTENT, it was yours, the same with lover provider and others... But i can take that liberty cause i been laying women, and it took my over 5 years to actually get what you were doing (true story)....

Mystery in his book encourage guys to find ways to dhv based on their own accomplishment,...

being authentic is cope anyways, being authentic = being status quote vs maximizing odds...

I think op is thinking either being himself, which is what he is not getting laid, vs optimizing... And yes unfortunately for optimazing you need at the early stages a script what op calls unauthentic due to you need some type of road mad that has been FIELD TESTED AND PROVEN BY A LOT OF PEOPLE....

^ That is the whole point of the community....

op for reference take a look at this:

The fallacy of seduction success part 3 - What is optimal??

First definition: "best; most likely to bring success or advantage: Several treatment sessions are required in order to obtain optimal results. Conditions in the chamber are optimal for diffusion, reaching very high temperatures. Synonym the best or most effective possible in a particular...

www.skilledseducer.com

for sex talk if you want a dumb down guide here is a video:

By the way on the topic of being authentic, we call that natural game... many guys teach that, there are guys that focus on being AUTHENTIC, one is Steve Jabba he actually used the nickname authentic pua....... And the other was Mark Manson..... Both are a bit of guys that are not in the field for YEARS and is NO OPTIMAL right now... If you want to learn natural game, learn natural and then come back to the script/gambits that are a bit more advance onces you got couple of lays..... Again no need to do that process, i already and others done that and you can start with routine base (i kind of disagree with teevester on being advance, just don't freestyle or be autistic)....

Try out a comfort based routine such as these ones:

- Sex Talk: The Submission Gambit (has this "female empowerment" element to it that they like these days)

- Sex Talk Gambit: Women's Sexual Subjectification (same as above)

- Sex Talk: The Purity Gambit (same as above)

- "Self-Control Is Sexy": A Sex Talk Gambit (Turn Her On!) (safety)

- How to Know If a Girl Likes Oral or Anal Sex: The Pleasure of Sex Gambit (for some reasons this one works always - probably due to its implicit pro-gay narrative and its implicit anti-heteronormative essence - the fuck do i know).

- Making a Girl Trust & Feel Comfortable with You (Seduction Gambit) (pure sexual comfort - prob the gambit I had the most success with in 2023)

- Sex Talk Gambits: Interhuman Relations (probably because it has some pan-sexual elements)

I would start with this one if i were you:

- Making a Girl Trust & Feel Comfortable with You (Seduction Gambit) (pure sexual comfort - prob the gambit I had the most success with in 2023)

Thanks for the links, I will check everything out and test it.

Regarding authenticity, I didn't mention this, but I' coming from a place of PUA teaching me to not be authentic at all. All I do is use techniques, from the first word I say, to the lay. Even factual stuff I say about myself is constructed to maximize attraction - I lie about going to the gym, playing soccer, travelling..

But it's starting to piss me off, as the validation I get from the lays is not really hitting that inner spot. Since it's not me getting success, but a fake version of me.

Even how I look is a lie - I wear thick clothes to look more buff, I wear height shoes, I stand proud even when I feel like (and I am) a total loser. So all of this is a lie too.

So I want to put at least 5% of "myself" into my seductions. But I don't even know who I am, after 10 (!) years of faking my personality just to get girls. That's literally all I did, I never had a job, I didn't have any hobbies. All I did was sarge.

And now, finally, I can feel an authentic emotion coming up: frustration. And you bet I'm going to cherish it. I'll express it no matter what. I'm tired of acting like I'm some attractive dude. I really am not.

So it's not a matter of trying to be more authentic. It's about putting at least 1% of something real out there.

 

[topcat]

Took a screenshot of that for regular reference.

lol same

 

[Teevster]

Thank you for such a detailed reply,. I also respect that you didn't get that defensive.

Well, it is a forum after all - som some friction is necessary and part of the game. That's part of the culture here.

I chose frustration for a reason, so you're right about the pacing point. The reason why I chose frustraion as the bridge to the gambit was that, as you mentioned, some girls resonate with this emotion deeply.

The girl I acted most frustrated with, has repeatedly expressed how frustrated she was with finding a partner, and how frustrated she is with her current one. So I wanted to unlock those emotions in her.

I see where you are going with this. And I somewhat had that in mind when reading your post and making my reply.

It is true that sometimes women connect on toxic emotions. This is a known fact. However, I still have not entirely figured how this works in practice. The reason is more that I do no not want to figure this out, since I believe one should stay away from such approach and more importantly, stay away from women who gets attracted to men who make them relieve trauma or dark emotions. She is likely to be a lot of trouble. But this is just a mere personal opinion.

The only thing I cannot make entirely sense of here is this:

The girl I acted most frustrated with, has repeatedly expressed how frustrated she was with finding a partner, and how frustrated she is with her current one. So I wanted to unlock those emotions in her.

In the OP you mentioned that it did not work - you received negative response. Here you at least hint at scenarios where it worked for you - i.e. that the pacing did its job. Could you please clarify? To me there seems to be a contradiction here and the things you said in your OP.

Despite this, there are two things I make out of this, based on the limited information I posess regarding your results (or lack thereof):

1. This strategy will not work on all women. In fact, I believe It will not work well on most women (in my opinion). Yes, all women can resonate with some negative emotions, but most on a surface superficial level, and I would not advice to get to go any deeper with them as most women do not wish to relieve negativity. Cannot base your overall strategy on outliers. After all, pacing is only one part of the process - it only gets you that far. At some point you will need to transition to some form of framing and elicitation of states that are fruitful to the overall seduction process.
2. Now regarding those outliers, it is true that some women will want you to go deep on them and really elicit those negative emotions. Those cases do not make up the majority of women.

Also in my experience, especially the smarter girls tend to disagree with the content of the gambits. They're like "no, it's not that difficult to please us" or "no, girls aren't really frustrated". Or even "I wouldn¨t generalise this much". Which leaves me looking like I'm close minded and just had experience with a certain type of a woman.

Most of my gambits were created dealing with so-called "smarter girls" - partly due to the fact of frequently being active in University Circles. There used to be a joke that I would eat sociologists and anthropologists for breakfast lol.

The response you hint at, at least to me, does not seem to entail that you were dealing with a partcularily intelligent woman. Rather, it seem like you were dealing with a sceptic girl, usuall a sign of low compliance, or testy behavior (or both) - she is basically saying "I am not ready to play ball with you just yet". Or, it could be a test - "show me you are the deal with first". what ever the true cause is behind her response matters little. What mattersis how you deal with it and fortunately both cases require similar solution: frame control.

You cannot do any verbal game without proper frame control. The more advanced the verbal game/gambit is, the better frame control you need. But not just that, frame control is the bread and butter of seduction - it is an important element in general not just with verbal game, but it is even more key when you opt for it. If I were you, I would focus on framing and framing control first and foremost (heck this is what I would recommend 90% of men, whether beginner, intermediates or lower advanced - yes it is that key).

Now, let us move back to the case ou were dealing with.

They're like "no, it's not that difficult to please us" or "no, girls aren't really frustrated"

In this specific case, you can easily get out of this:

Her: No we are not that easy to please/not that frustrated!
Me: interesting you say that, and I am happy to hear that - this is awesome news (pacing). However, I must ask a question though - why are the sales of sex toys skyrocketing? I read a few papers that it was due to sexual disatisfaction/frustratio.

Ok... now you won the frame back... but let us say she is still not willing to dance:

Her: Because we like to be in charge of our own sexuality and we may not always want to deal with men and all that comes with it.
Me: I totally see that - after all, drama, and all that can be draining, however don't you think that there is still something very powerful about sharing a strong experience with someone? Create a strong shared narrative, create a strong moment, a strong connection, a special bubble? and that this could make any sexual relationships more powerful, far superior to the usage of sex toys?
Her: yes... (is she going to disagree with this? REALLY?).

And now you can milk the hell out of this.. on. move onto some talk about connection and sex, emotions and sex, trust and sex, shared narratives and sex.

This is how it is done. Frame control my friend. Frame control.

Furthermore, I have a set of gambits that were created specifically for smart girls - think of girls studying social sciences or humanities - the type who tend to be the most opinionated about these sujects. Some of these gambits are in fact built on the litterature from these exact fields. This includes: the sexual subjectification gambit (inspired by a class I had on gender philosophy - say what you want about this field, it tend to really attract academic chicks - the gambit is inspired by the works of Martha Nussbaum), the sexual perversion gambit ( gambit is inspired by the great Thomas Nagel), the period paradox gambit (based on a talk I had with a chick pursuing a philosophy major who wrote her thesis on eco-feminism - what ever that is). Claiming this won't work on "smart girls" is a bit odd. Note that I put the bar very high for what I consider a smart girl. Unlikely, your negative response was not due to them being "smart".

But sometimes, they are and it is totally ok to miss the first try and use a gambit that is too simple for the girl in question. If so, just use this as an excuse to re-calibrate. After all, that's how game works. You do X, she responds Y, you calibrate to Y.

But in your case, it seems like a frame control issue - either due to her testing you, or her not being compliant enough (they are related issues). The solution would be to either build a bit more compliance before opting for these gambits (you can jump straight into them, but it requires much more calibration and frame control) or perfect your frame control.

And finally, if frustration is not the correct vibe in most of your gambits: I wonder what the correct emotion is

Anything positive really: intrigue, passion, excitement, curiosity, fascination... list goes on. FYI this is not unique to sex talk, but any form of verbal game that aims to use discussions and stories to convey something (attractive).

. Because from my experience, once you start telling those stories, girls are like:

"what is bro yapping on about".

If you get this, it means you are transitioning poorly and too out of the blue. Very likely, you are doing so too early in the game. Early game sex talk, as mentioned earlier, is doable, but generally tend to require smoother transitions. Mid-game sex talk tends to be easier and requires less fancy transitions since you already have some rapport and complince to work with. I wrote about this here.

Basically they don't get why you talk so much. What is the purpose. What are you trying to prove or whatever.

That is the whole point - you are not trying to prove anything. The frame should not be one of you coming off as trying to prove anything. The whole point is to be covert about evetything, by coming off as someone who just want to discuss a fascinating subject and through that set the right frames and elicit the right emotions. The point is not trying prove a point.

Again, seems your overall framework is off. The problem you are facing does not seem unique to your usage of sex talk, but more in general. Game, whether direct or indirect, would not entail you trying to "prove" anything (at least not come off that way). That goes against the cardinal rules of pick up and seduction.

Especially since we should follow the Law of least effort, suddenly talking so much just seems incongruent and try-hard.

The law of least effort does not entail talking less, but coming off as less try hard. Discussing a fascinating subject with chick is not try hard. It is just fun. Also, I have discussed this subject in the past - let the girls speak too.

Here is a snippet from that post:

The 60-40 rule (you talking more) is generally a good one, although I admit I usually do most of the talking because I consider my verbal game one of my strengths. If your verbal game isn't well established, or you are not a verbose guy like me, making her invest more may be a good call.

If your game is about making her invest more, then focus on that. If your game is more about bombarding her with impulses and frames, then you should generally do more of the talking.

Both are good strategies because they rely on your strengths.

So, the issue may be that you have not read the manual properly?

I get the feeling that girls will like a guy despite him using these gambits, not thanks to using them. But feel free to correct me. maybe I'm missing the emotion behind all of this. And maybe your girls aren't wondering "why is he telling me all this?".

Maybe. But having girls like me is just one part of the process. Setting a sexual frame is another - because that helps me escalate the vibe and dodge resistance.

Furthermore, sex talk has allowed to to score some girls that were impossible to crack, and helped me get girls who initially seemed aloff into quickly going home with me. I have had more success using it then when not using it. Many other experienced seducers can attest to this.

But if you think that I have been wasting my time using this technique in my 15+ years of actvity, then so be it. Do you also claim that others who have had success with it, then so be it. But the burden of proof is not on me my friend.

I have now provided you with more than enough to answer any questions you had. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that your intend here isNOT to try to fix the issue, but "rant" or "vent" about a style of pick up. . My job is not to convince you that this works. Again, If you do not like this style and it does not work for you, follow @Skills initial advice and focus on a different style of game. After all, I think this may be the most ideal solution when I think of it. You can always come back to sex talk later.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Teevster]

Wait, if you see my next post, i had no idea, this was not one of your gambits, as i said before if he was FREESTYLING, or making shit up, how is that field testing your routine??? Again, i had people do the same with my stuff, that is not how field testing is done..

True but I stll think your initial advice applies. If one does not like a style, or is not getting results with it, try something else for a bit. Irrelevant of whether the person actually understood the style or not, they now have a negative bias towards it that I believe is quite unresolvable - at least for now.

He is calling being "authentic" following a script.... there are ways to be AUTHENTIC, following a script, for example i did that with the 8 orgasms routine, and some other stuff tailoring to my style but the CONTENT, it was yours, the same with lover provider and others... But i can take that liberty cause i been laying women, and it took my over 5 years to actually get what you were doing (true story)....

Yes indeed. I agree here.

being authentic is cope anyways, being authentic = being status quote vs maximizing odds...

I think op is thinking either being himself, which is what he is not getting laid, vs optimizing... And yes unfortunately for optimazing you need at the early stages a script what op calls unauthentic due to you need some type of road mad that has been FIELD TESTED AND PROVEN BY A LOT OF PEOPLE....

^ That is the whole point of the community....

op for reference take a look at this:

We agree on this, and you know it.

By the way on the topic of being authentic, we call that natural game... many guys teach that, there are guys that focus on being AUTHENTIC, one is Steve Jabba he actually used the nickname authentic pua....... And the other was Mark Manson..... Both are a bit of guys that are not in the field for YEARS and is NO OPTIMAL right now... If you want to learn natural game, learn natural and then come back to the script/gambits that are a bit more advance onces you got couple of lays..... Again no need to do that process, i already and others done that and you can start with routine base (i kind of disagree with teevester on being advance, just don't freestyle or be autistic)....

I agree. I did not however claim one had to be advanced, but beginners usually would struggle using things like sex. We see this is especially the case when they do not have certain basic understand of general concepts and techniques such as frame control, calibration, delivery, elicitation of states and the whole idea of "conveying" and not "expressing explicitly" and so on. I think at the end of the way we are in agreement, aside from some semantics of course,

- Sex Talk: The Submission Gambit (has this "female empowerment" element to it that they like these days)

- Sex Talk Gambit: Women's Sexual Subjectification (same as above)

- Sex Talk: The Purity Gambit (same as above)

- "Self-Control Is Sexy": A Sex Talk Gambit (Turn Her On!) (safety)

Yeah good ones. I fact, they are some of my most used lately. Safe and efficient.

- How to Know If a Girl Likes Oral or Anal Sex: The Pleasure of Sex Gambit (for some reasons this one works always - probably due to its implicit pro-gay narrative and its implicit anti-heteronormative essence - the fuck do i know).

Damn for real? I always considered this one risky and more niche (I would personally not recommend this for anyone starting out). But maybe the pro gay-narrative is a thing. Fuck, that's hillariou.s I have not used this one in a while. Maybe it works better now.

Also fun how different gambits seem to work better for some than others. This is not a weakness.

- Making a Girl Trust & Feel Comfortable with You (Seduction Gambit) (pure sexual comfort - prob the gambit I had the most success with in 2023)

Also my current favourite. Just a total cheatcode. Never fails... and so efficient. @Pelusita also has had immense success with this one. I have also over-used this one since early 2023. Still am, but getting a bit bored of it (you know, sometimes you just get fed up using a gambit despite it working...)

Agreed that this a good gambit for beginners.

Best,
Teevster

 

[Skills]

Regarding authenticity, I didn't mention this, but I' coming from a place of PUA teaching me to not be authentic at all. All I do is use techniques, from the first word I say, to the lay.

Well if you are getting laid you can incorporate now your own spin, i still don't understand... Everyone in the world has their own game, obviously is not effective so they are trying to optimize what they do... I still don't get it, you went to elementary school, then middle school, then high school... If you were authentic you would illiterate, again it makes no sense what you are saying.... Everything we do is not authentic even guys not in the community, we call it societal programming... I really don't understand what you are saying, i think again, you are calling scripts not being authentic.

Even factual stuff I say about myself is constructed to maximize attraction - I lie about going to the gym, playing soccer, travelling..

^ you don't need to do that, for example you are into self help, and i am sure there some thing else that is positive about you, that you could find...... you don't need to lie unless flirting.... For example i use when the girl is asking me what i am doing? "thinking of you and smiling" or "at gym trying to look jack and sexy for our upcomming date" or when she sends pics "dammm, you just woke up optimus prime, give me a second almost there, my baseline running low" is obvious lies but is called FLIRTING, she probably knows you are lying but the sub is FLIRTING.. But you don't need to lie about any of that...

But it's starting to piss me off, as the validation I get from the lays is not really hitting that inner spot. Since it's not me getting success, but a fake version of me.

^ yeah that can be depressing i know exactly what you are saying HAPPENED TO ME, when i was doing the sex talk, i did a post on that, now i understand what you are saying.... I did a post on that on sedfast....then happeend again with online as well... I seen it happen a lot.... now i get what you are saying... it happen to a lot of guys..... Ok, so how i solved it was that i abandoned a bit the "gambits" and "online" ..... I went back to natural game a bit, but what happens is that your results will drop temporarily... chase has something somewhere as a response somewhere here...(is not a post is him referring to a dude he knew that did routine got laid, when back to natural, results went to shit) @Chase if you can repeat the story and how he solved it, i forgot, i remember you said that story..

Even how I look is a lie - I wear thick clothes to look more buff, I wear height shoes, I stand proud even when I feel like (and I am) a total loser. So all of this is a lie too.

Well, again optimizing, so do HOT WOMEN, lol, look brah! i dye my beard, i dye my bold head to look like a fade, i wear baggy, i dye my eye bows, i wear make up.... There are guys that do that and more, again optimazation, if you don't want to do that, is ok, but you will have to put wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more numbers, and work a lot harder and get lower level of women... do you really want that? is up to you? i am 49 gaming in 20s clubs, i need to do what i got a do.... but my peers are fat staying home getting yelled by the disgusting troll wife with 50 kids.... So i rather my situation, it literally take me couple of minutes to fraud max...But agian, personal choice you don't have to, but good luck with the massive numbers game and the 6ses and under...

So I want to put at least 5% of "myself" into my seductions. But I don't even know who I am, after 10 (!) years of faking my personality just to get girls. That's literally all I did, I never had a job, I didn't have any hobbies. All I did was sarge.

^ well ah! horrible... That is the problem, you can have a balance life.... this is just a hobby not a lifestyle... though, some make it a lifestyle (myself) but even i have balance and hobbies, and a professional life..

And now, finally, I can feel an authentic emotion coming up: frustration. And you bet I'm going to cherish it. I'll express it no matter what. I'm tired of acting like I'm some attractive dude. I really am not.

^ frustration, jealousy, hate, anger, is totally anti seductive, why not fart as well in front of a girl as authenticity...Open with "pull my finger"

So it's not a matter of trying to be more authentic. It's about putting at least 1% of something real out there.

^ yes take a break from routine based for a while, just warning you, the results may drop temporarily but to be honest with gen z in my opinion is not that bad.... Anyways, since you been doing it for 10 years according to you, you have it ingrained... so change to natural...

 

[Teevster]

I still don't get it, you went to elementary school, then middle school, then high school... If you were authentic you would be illiterate,

^ frustration, jealousy, hate, anger, is totally anti seductive, why not fart as well in front of a girl as authenticity...Open with "pull my finger"

Farting is actually an amog. If you see a girl you like on the dancefloor dancing with some dude, just walk by and drop a bomb - a deadly fart next to them (they won't hear it due to the noise - the pleasure of farting clubs.... ) and walk away. Hit-and-run just got a new definition.

Just wait for the awkward moment haha. You totally destroy their moment.

PS I wonder how much farting you'd hear if you could "edit out" the music in the club.

-Teevster

 

[Skills]

Farting is actually an amog. If you see a girl you like on the dancefloor dancing with some dude, just walk by and drop a bomb - a deadly fart next to them (they won't hear it due to the noise - the pleasure of farting clubs.... ) and walk away. Hit-and-run just got a new definition.

Just wait for the awkward moment haha. You totally destroy their moment.

PS I wonder how much farting you'd hear if you could "edit out" the music in the club.

-Teevster

I ain't field testing that....but op can be authentic and try that..

 

[Renegade]

I ain't field testing that....but op can be authentic and try that..

While I appreciate some joking, here I can sense it's not exactly in good faith. And since we're on a social skills forum, I'd appreciate if you told me what made you want to make fun of me like that.

I'm not confident enough to fight back, but I do want to improve, so I'm asking directly like this, and I'd appreciate an honest reply. More guys have given me rough responses here and I wonder where the unfriendliness comes from. All I'm doing is sharing honest feedback, and some people are giving me backlash for it. That doesn't seem fair.

 

[Renegade]

I still don't get it, you went to elementary school, then middle school, then high school... If you were authentic you would illiterate, again it makes no sense what you are saying.... Everything we do is not authentic even guys not in the community, we call it societal programming... I really don't understand what you are saying, i think again, you are calling scripts not being authentic.

It seems like the confusion is coming from what I say to women vs. who I am. I don't think using techniques or "lying" while flirting is being fake. What I mean by being fake is literally changing my whole personality, my values, my interests, my goals and aspirations... based on what's attractive. Also based on every single girl.

I spend hours, days, weeks... studying what every girl that I want likes, what are her dreams, what is she missing.. and I work on becoming that. My last business, I built literally just because of one girl. I do this with friends too.

Since I was little I had to act like someone I'm not, otherwise I'd get punished severely (I saw my siblings get hard physical beatings etc.), so I learnt that I have to supplicate to people and be liked by them, if I want their love.

Now, since there's no other way to get that love I'm missing, I seek it from women. And I don't feel any identity of my own, so I construct everything in order to be attractive. You can search symptoms of NPD to learn more about this (many guys in the community have this too).

So I feel like a fraud and I hate it. I know my real self (if there even is one) is not good enough - I was abused, bullied, etc.. so I present fake versions of myself. And now I'm tired of it.

So yeah I will try to just be myself, whatever that might feel like. Even if that's being a frustrated incel. I don't care, it's ME. I've been a fake playboy for too long.

 

[Chase]

So I feel like a fraud and I hate it. I know my real self (if there even is one) is not good enough - I was abused, bullied, etc.. so I present fake versions of myself. And now I'm tired of it.

So yeah I will try to just be myself, whatever that might feel like. Even if that's being a frustrated incel. I don't care, it's ME. I've been a fake playboy for too long.

Have you ever thought about NOT being frustrated?

Like, not in a fake way, but like actually prioritizing, you know, mental health?

How to Overcome Depression

Was discussing this on a forum with a guy; I used to talk about it a fair amount, some time back, but it's sort of faded from my life in significance. It just isn't on my mind much these days anymore, but I do remember how big a deal it was for me once, and hopefully my story and process can...

www.girlschase.com

Because I wouldn’t want to have to fake non-frustration while frustrated too.

But I also wouldn’t want to be approaching a bunch of women frustrated, getting myself rejected because no one thinks frustration is sexy, and then getting even more frustrated.

I would rather just NOT be frustrated.

I would suggest you start with that before you worry much more about girls.

 

[Renegade]

Have you ever thought about NOT being frustrated?

Like, not in a fake way, but like actually prioritizing, you know, mental health?

How to Overcome Depression

Was discussing this on a forum with a guy; I used to talk about it a fair amount, some time back, but it's sort of faded from my life in significance. It just isn't on my mind much these days anymore, but I do remember how big a deal it was for me once, and hopefully my story and process can...

www.girlschase.com

Because I wouldn’t want to have to fake non-frustration while frustrated too.

But I also wouldn’t want to be approaching a bunch of women frustrated, getting myself rejected because no one thinks frustration is sexy, and then getting even more frustrated.

I would rather just NOT be frustrated.

I would suggest you start with that before you worry much more about girls.

Yes, the frustrating thing is that 3 years ago I decided to make my mental health a priority. I got intensive trauma therapy which I still get twice a week, I started going to various support groups, read a ton of books about mental health, etc.

So I must say that I'm doing everything I can here. I can't think of what more to do - I already barely get out of bed and eat, go outside, etc. All the capacity and energy I have I spend on healing, and some energy that is left, on seduction.

But yeah, not being frustrated is of course my goal. But if you're familiar with trauma recovery/personality disorder healing, this can take years, and even get worse before it gets better. So right now I have to work with what I have. Right now I want to cherish being frustrated, because finally after years of being depressed and disconnected, I can finally FEEL something.

I would like to know what your practical tip would be here, because I'm literally doing everything I can about my mental health. I know so much about trauma recovery by now that I'm basically training my therapists.

 

[Skills]

While I appreciate some joking, here I can sense it's not exactly in good faith. And since we're on a social skills forum, I'd appreciate if you told me what made you want to make fun of me like that.

I'm not confident enough to fight back, but I do want to improve, so I'm asking directly like this, and I'd appreciate an honest reply. More guys have given me rough responses here and I wonder where the unfriendliness comes from. All I'm doing is sharing honest feedback, and some people are giving me backlash for it. That doesn't seem fair.

Brah not that deep... Is trolling... But if it bothers..my bad read the other stuff i posted to help..

 

[Skills]

It seems like the confusion is coming from what I say to women vs. who I am. I don't think using techniques or "lying" while flirting is being fake. What I mean by being fake is literally changing my whole personality, my values, my interests, my goals and aspirations... based on what's attractive. Also based on every single girl.

I spend hours, days, weeks... studying what every girl that I want likes, what are her dreams, what is she missing.. and I work on becoming that. My last business, I built literally just because of one girl. I do this with friends too.

Since I was little I had to act like someone I'm not, otherwise I'd get punished severely (I saw my siblings get hard physical beatings etc.), so I learnt that I have to supplicate to people and be liked by them, if I want their love.

Now, since there's no other way to get that love I'm missing, I seek it from women. And I don't feel any identity of my own, so I construct everything in order to be attractive. You can search symptoms of NPD to learn more about this (many guys in the community have this too).

So I feel like a fraud and I hate it. I know my real self (if there even is one) is not good enough - I was abused, bullied, etc.. so I present fake versions of myself. And now I'm tired of it.

So yeah I will try to just be myself, whatever that might feel like. Even if that's being a frustrated incel. I don't care, it's ME. I've been a fake playboy for too long.

Again you can be yourself while optimazing... I am myself but an optimized vs like you vs you after yesrs working out... Get me

 

[Renegade]

Brah not that deep... Is trolling... But if it bothers..my bad read the other stuff i posted to help..

Right, but you had the urge to troll, for some reason. And here at this community we like to analyze things. So I would like to know what made you do what you did - just out of curiosity. I often make people want to make fun of me, and I need to know why. And for you it might be good to look into the source of your behavior.

I of course appreciate all the advice you gave me and I replied to the latest one now.

 

[Skills]

Yes, the frustrating thing is that 3 years ago I decided to make my mental health a priority. I got intensive trauma therapy which I still get twice a week, I started going to various support groups, read a ton of books about mental health, etc.

So I must say that I'm doing everything I can here. I can't think of what more to do - I already barely get out of bed and eat, go outside, etc. All the capacity and energy I have I spend on healing, and some energy that is left, on seduction.

But yeah, not being frustrated is of course my goal. But if you're familiar with trauma recovery/personality disorder healing, this can take years, and even get worse before it gets better. So right now I have to work with what I have. Right now I want to cherish being frustrated, because finally after years of being depressed and disconnected, I can finally FEEL something.

I would like to know what your practical tip would be here, because I'm literally doing everything I can about my mental health. I know so much about trauma recovery by now that I'm basically training my therapists.

What is the reason for your trauma and depression???

 

[Renegade]

Again you can be yourself while optimazing... I am myself but an optimized vs like you vs you after yesrs working out... Get me

The problem is that I'm not actively avoiding being myself. It's that I have no idea what that "myself" even is. Like I feel no core idenitity. Nothing. I want to optimize and build on something, but there is no core me.

 

[Skills]

Right, but you had the urge to troll, for some reason. And here at this community we like to analyze things. So I would like to know what made you do what you did - just out of curiosity. I often make people want to make fun of me, and I need to know why. And for you it might be good to look into the source of your behavior.

I of course appreciate all the advice you gave me and I replied to the latest one now.

I was being authentic