Expectations Not Causing Pain

[KJ Francis]

Hi everyone, I am still in a little bit of shock right now from having received a ton of screaming voice notes. But anyways, I decided not to bait a switch a girl and instead be very clear before locking in with a third night together. So I ran up into a 29 year old being very very very very adamant about going on dates and stuff. There are many features of this individual woman that make it a specific case, but I would like to consider more generally...

How do you guys move about in the world meeting your needs without collateral damage?

I believe I was dealing with the upper end of angry here, and an unavoidable boyfriend zoning and auto-rejection.

Like do I have to start doing ONS only?? Do you do mLTR with red zone only? Do you main a girl only with LTR potential?

What does @Grand Pooba say of Queen Theory now? I might formulate a question once someone gets me one of those aluminum foil blankets. Sheesh.

 

[Higher]

I am still in a little bit of shock right now from having received a ton of screaming voice notes.

Curious to hear the story up to that point.

 

[topcat]

Curious to hear the story up to that point.

Correct. What did YOU do?

 

[KJ Francis]

Curious to hear the story up to that point.

Unfortunately it is very difficult to explain much since there are many aspects that tie back to personal, private details about her. There were several very serious screening considerations here.

I thought she was a lot more experienced than the reality was though. Despite being incredibly clear on the date that I have never even been in a committed relationship in my life, I do not have any actual valid boyfriend disqualification besides it being my present lifestyle of choice. So it comes down to screening. Even unvoiced, that invariably leads to her feeling extremely rejected.

My apartment is not flashy whatsoever. But there is a certain element where with enough socioeconomic class difference, you are placing an opportunity in front of her for a seismic shift in her situation if she is able to lock you down. You can elicit values all day, but at some point she's going to discover you have a career. Coupled with a strong connection from deep diving and very long sex sessions, the value and attainability were both extremely high. When that attainability drops... Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

So the challenge is like... how do you balance setting really clear expectations while not messing yourself up by switching your process depending on her level of LTR potential? Whether her own strategy is casual or screening, subcommunicating that you've screened her out for long term but are ok with just fun is not the same as being a lover she meets on vacation. It's an actual rejection.

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I've always kind of kept this in mind...

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So guys i get many pms, and i see posts about lover provider a lot, people misunderstand the whole thing, this is one of the topics people don't get due to nuances. Ok the lover provider stuff has been discussed to death, and yes it is important, super important..... But as always there are...

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But I've also had extended connections where I'm clear as day the biggest fuckboy in the world, but she's still feeling cherished and thinks I'm going to somehow be her Beauty and the Beast or Cinderella story.

 

[POB]

My guess: you had BF behavior with her.
If you say yes to any of this while not looking to have a relationship, you are doing it wrong:
- spend the night together;
- seeing her more than once per week;
- cuddling;
- letting her stay for a long time after sex;
- meeting friends;
- any type of gift;
- holding hands, getting her on dates after you've fucked her 3 times;

This is why you have progression between FB > MLTR and GF/wife.
Every time you tell a girl you don't want anyting serious BUT behaves like a BF, she'll ignore what you said and focus on what you are doing.

P.S. one of my FBs is in an open marriage.
She knows I have a main and that I want nothing serious with her (cause she is married duh).
Even so she tests me asking me to go with her to parties and events.
I politely decline.

If they like you, they'll want to lock you in.
That's why talk is cheap and frame is everything.

 

[KJ Francis]

cuddling

This was it.

If they like you, they'll want to lock you in.
That's why talk is cheap and frame is everything.

Totally spot on.

I've never had a problem from cuddling though. Even with some cool chicks who were inexperienced with dating, we'd cuddle and talk about guys they're dating more seriously. Even the most open minded freaks all seem to really like to cuddle. It's a big part of the experience for me, after girls cum and turn into a sweet kitten. You'd think after a good session, not touching her would be a bit of a shock physiologically for her. Like being impregnated and left for dead.

Like she handed me handcuffs from her closet... I had them on her with her hands behind her back right on the floor, among other things. When we were done she immediately asked me to hold her. Even when it's not for "aftercare", it's like really being a lover rather than a walking dildo. I enjoy deep diving and really understanding a girl. They often seem wetter when feeling relaxed, understood, and connected rather than emotionally hesitant.


But I don't want to leave a trail of broken hearts. And I'm not going to focus my own pair bonding on one or a few super open minded girls who are out there doing who knows what. Even if I logically do not mate guard, there's a certain subconscious trigger there where I can be good friends, but can't let myself truly emotionally bond when her heart is led by her vagina in various directions.

So what's the answer... become a stone cold player through ONS skill building until I'm finally ready to take on even a pure fuck buddy who may progress down the relationship path?



"The true test of how good a man is with women is not how he satisfies his desire for sex, but how he deals with his need for affection."

"Guys who sleep with lots of girls don’t impress me. The only thing I want to know when I meet a guy who is supposedly good with women is how he deals with his need for female affection."

"Once she sees the provider potential in you, she will never allow you to be just the lover. She would rather leave and start over with someone else. For a short period of time you might get friends with benefits status, but you will never be able to enjoy her female affection again without a price."

- Sixty Years of Challenge

 

[KJ Francis]

Sorry for rambling... I am still sort of shook. There was a lot about this girl I learned after the second night together that influenced her behavior and I can't blame myself for whatsoever. But I still need to reconsider how to approach things generally.

 

[Higher]

I am still in a little bit of shock right now from having received a ton of screaming voice notes.

My guess: you had BF behavior with her.

Yeah, sounds like she thought something more was possible, and your stance felt incongruent to her.

How do you guys move about in the world meeting your needs without collateral damage?

First off: i deal mostly with ~24yo girls who might be in exploration mode, so not sure whether this applies to your 29yo.

But as @POB said, i try to start slowly—and keep it slow and vague for a long while.

For example, when texting i'm fairly warm and attainable—but i very rarely initiate an exchange, unless it's a ping after a while or if there's logistics to sort out. I straight-out ignore some texts from her when i feel they're pushing a BF-GF frame on the situation.

When with her in person, i talk a lot about SOTs even after first-sex, especially about non-monogamy, my ex-lovers, crazy sex stories, and taking things slowly. It's genuinely stuff that i love talking about and pick women's brains about (men's brains are usually very closed to this unfortunately). I obviously avoid talking about "future plans" and monogamy-related stuff, unless it's about one of my exes or it's a philosophical conversation.

I wouldn't say that i deep-dive a lot these days—i feel it strengthens the bond too much at times.

I also often mention that i'm a lone wolf, that i travel extensively and very spontaneously (and mostly alone) and that i need lots of me-time. The message here is: i like you and it's magic when we're together and i care about you, but i have my life and need my space, so don't get too close too soon or i might run for the hills.

I think this whole approach (which i by no means invented) gives me the freedom to ramp up "boyfriendliness" on demand while keeping the "collateral damage" down.

 

[topcat]

This was it.


Totally spot on.

I've never had a problem from cuddling though. Even with some cool chicks who were inexperienced with dating, we'd cuddle and talk about guys they're dating more seriously. Even the most open minded freaks all seem to really like to cuddle. It's a big part of the experience for me, after girls cum and turn into a sweet kitten. You'd think after a good session, not touching her would be a bit of a shock physiologically for her. Like being impregnated and left for dead.

Like she handed me handcuffs from her closet... I had them on her with her hands behind her back right on the floor, among other things. When we were done she immediately asked me to hold her. Even when it's not for "aftercare", it's like really being a lover rather than a walking dildo. I enjoy deep diving and really understanding a girl. They often seem wetter when feeling relaxed, understood, and connected rather than emotionally hesitant.


But I don't want to leave a trail of broken hearts. And I'm not going to focus my own pair bonding on one or a few super open minded girls who are out there doing who knows what. Even if I logically do not mate guard, there's a certain subconscious trigger there where I can be good friends, but can't let myself truly emotionally bond when her heart is led by her vagina in various directions.

So what's the answer... become a stone cold player through ONS skill building until I'm finally ready to take on even a pure fuck buddy who may progress down the relationship path?



"The true test of how good a man is with women is not how he satisfies his desire for sex, but how he deals with his need for affection."

"Guys who sleep with lots of girls don’t impress me. The only thing I want to know when I meet a guy who is supposedly good with women is how he deals with his need for female affection."

"Once she sees the provider potential in you, she will never allow you to be just the lover. She would rather leave and start over with someone else. For a short period of time you might get friends with benefits status, but you will never be able to enjoy her female affection again without a price."

- Sixty Years of Challenge

I'd been running into this very same issue to great frustration in my last blitz. I've been brainstorming a solution and things I'm testing are:

- Frontloading my red flags rather than hiding them. Things like being irresponsible, poor with time keeping. Texting sporadically. Non comittal. Sharing some of my more edgy opinions. Basically things that make the task of domestication seem not worth the effort (but hopefully the sex and stimulation you provide make up for it)[I dropped this stuff on a higher-end FB that started considering me for something long term - she ran for the hills - so it works, it just requires calibration and best introduced early]

- In conversations about relationships, explaining my faults that led to girls leaving (no desire for commitement on my end) and me leading to let girls go (them wanting something more serious that I couldn't give them)

- When neediness shows, telling them I think it's getting a bit much for them and maybe we should stop all of this and they find somebody softer (essentially they're confirming my original suspicions)

I still cuddle as some girls need that, and its necessary especially when engaging in kinky sex. I'm just trying to be more open and honest about the beast I am, and warning them off me every step of the way, making assumptions and cold reads that they'll be hurt by me and that I'm doubting their ability to handle me. Also remembering to reward them for maintaining their composure.

 

[POB]

I've never had a problem from cuddling though. Even with some cool chicks who were inexperienced with dating, we'd cuddle and talk about guys they're dating more seriously. Even the most open minded freaks all seem to really like to cuddle. It's a big part of the experience for me, after girls cum and turn into a sweet kitten. You'd think after a good session, not touching her would be a bit of a shock physiologically for her. Like being impregnated and left for dead.

Clarification:
Cuddling meant mellow stuff in general, not the actual act of holding her close and showing that you care after you take a break or finish.
You can do it without hinting relationship.

Like she handed me handcuffs from her closet... I had them on her with her hands behind her back right on the floor, among other things. When we were done she immediately asked me to hold her. Even when it's not for "aftercare", it's like really being a lover rather than a walking dildo. I enjoy deep diving and really understanding a girl. They often seem wetter when feeling relaxed, understood, and connected rather than emotionally hesitant.

100% right.

But I don't want to leave a trail of broken hearts. And I'm not going to focus my own pair bonding on one or a few super open minded girls who are out there doing who knows what. Even if I logically do not mate guard, there's a certain subconscious trigger there where I can be good friends, but can't let myself truly emotionally bond when her heart is led by her vagina in various directions.

So what's the answer... become a stone cold player through ONS skill building until I'm finally ready to take on even a pure fuck buddy who may progress down the relationship path?

Can't generalize.
Some chicks need more time together, some don't.
Some need more care and skin on skin, some just want to be physical and get rag dolled.
Depends on the situation, but it's them man who decides how fast to progress.