Calls & Texts Nude Erotic Model: and setting Frames as well as getting Compliance?

[AdamC]

Hey Everyone,

So it's been a busy week if you have seen my other posts. I guess when it rains it pours - right?

Anyway, below is an email interaction I had with an Erotic Nude Model.
It began out of a professional interaction. She's a fan of my photography and part of my professional exclusive email-out list.
She responded to a general email-out I sent last week involving the solar eclipse...

Now I tried to practice Frame Control here, turning around her frame as well as getting Compliance.
It didn't work out as well as I liked, and would like some suggestions here.

Maybe actually get the "meet-up" (even though logistically it isn't very realistic since she's about 2 hours away from me given distance and traffic)

Here's the interaction:

Me:
Hey Liz,
So are you still modeling?
And what's your story?
Are you still based in Chino Hills as well?
Just curious.

Adam C
Fine Art Photographer

Her:
I’m still modeling. Just not as much
I’m in chino hills
Li

Me:
Li,
I might be visiting Chino Hills next week to take care of some stuff .
What are your thoughts about possibly meeting up to see if our creative personalities match?

Her:
Like a date?
I’m seeing someone

Me:
Well, I'm flattered you'd consider me date material Li - eye wink thingy...
But, we've never met eachother in person, and don't know eachother at all outside of a couple emails here and there.
And, I don't even think you even really know what I look like :/

Her:
Ok. So what do you look like

Me:
Well Li, some have called me "dashing with a bit of an edge..."
But I'm curious how you'd honestly describe yourself?
I can imagine you get look compliments all the time, right?

Her:
Do you have a pic

Me:
Yeah, but I'm more of a fan of being behind the camera than in front of it...
You?

And then SILENCE...

It's been a couple of days.
I was trying hard not to fall into her Frame, yet I think she got bored, pissed-off, or thought I was faking.
Funny thing is that my Picture is on my website under the about section so she could just see it there if she looks at my work.

Anyway, she does look pretty delicious. And I wouldn't necessarily say no to going out there to meet-up.

However, I do want to know how to do Better Frame Control, and gain Compliance with a "Strong, Independent, Sexually Experienced Female" like her since I have a handful of other "Strong, Independent, Sexually Experienced Females" in my sphere.

One is an OnlyFans Female. One is a Marvel Studios Actress. And another is an On-Air Meteorologist.
All with "spiceeey" personalities who Shit Test A-lot!!

Looking forward to the groups thoughts...

- Adam C

 

[topcat]

Ask yourself - what differentiates my approach from that of every other creepy photographer that drools over nude models and approaches them (digitally) under a false pretense?

She’s obviously seen it before, which is why she called you out immediately.

Best chance of seducing her? she seeks out your skills as a talented photographer after hearing of your reputation and falls for you as you display creative prowess and REAL charm..

Otherwise, you cold approach her non-professionally or she bumps into you socially while you display social proof.

My advice, rack up some lays with easier targets and circle back to these chicks when you’ve got a better idea of how the game works. You need some experience.

 

[Mr Mistah]

As someone that's been working on their texting, here are some things that stood out to me about your texting:

1. You went for the hard close too soon.

Maybe refer to Skills texting guide on proper sequence.
Open>Banter>Rapport>Soft Close>Hard Close
Your's went Open>Hard Close

2. Too much texts from you compared to her.

Notice how she's very candid and concise
The LOLE still applies to texting so sending shorter texts is always ideal

3. Too grammatically correct

Its a minor thing and not too many people talk about this but I feel like having perfect grammar is bad for seduction
It telegraphs too much interest/investment on your part
So when I text I will sometimes start sentences with lowercase, not use commas, fullstops, question marks etc
And often times if I make a typo I wont bother correcting it
Just send the text as it is
The lady in the texts kind of does this too. No question marks on some of her questions
But when I look at your texts, they are long, commas are meticulous, fullstops, punctuation etc

4. Too many questions

This is self explanatory
Try using more statements rather than questions

Also I learnt not to ask girls interview type questions like Whats your story and How would you honestly describe yourself
They put a lot of mental load on the girl because essentially what youre asking the girl to do is summarise the totality of her existence into one answer.
Now she has to pause and think What IS my story? and get all existential
If it was me I'd go for easier/manageable questions like "When did you get into modelling?" then build the conversation off that

Bonus example is asking girls what their favourite anything is.
Don't ask "What's your greatest movie of all time?"
Instead ask "What's a movie you really like"
Otherwise she has to stop and start mentally sifting through the many movies she's watched and ranking them mentally to find the greatest movie of all time
But if you ask her to tell you a movie she likes that becomes an easier question to answer

Basically, when asking questions keep it light

5. Intent
You went for the hardclose too soon then when she rebuffed you, you denied that you were interested in a date with her.
Said you guys dont know each other and she doesnt even know how you look.
So she went on and asked for your pic which you again deflected.

So up to this point the girl doesnt know what you want.
Your intent.
And this can easily be seen as wishy washy behaviour
Not very masculine/attractive

Watch PWF on Youtube. He has great texting advice

 

[AdamC]

Alright soo...

1. Hard close too soon. Need to figure out a "soft close."
2. Simpler shorter texts
3. Grammatically correct - this is a counterintuitive one coming from the professional world.
But makes sense though. Todd V says he'll use light cursing upon approach to show he's not playing safe around a very High Profile chick...
4. Simple statements vs "interview questions..." (could use this in Daygame as well...)
5. Intent - okay so how would you show intent though?

The conversation invitation was a professionally legitimate offer in the beginning. With anyone I potentially shoot with, male of female, we have a discussion to see if our creative personalities match, what the direction of the shoot will be, if there are any themes we'd like to shoot, character, wardrobe. Like a Director discussing a scene, characterization, look, feel, etcetera...

So how do you show intent without giving away your power? And remain mysterious?
If I just gave her the pic, then I could-of just given the Frame, and potentially my power away.
But obviously the way I did do it, didn't work either - so there has to be a middle ground...

 

[gameboy]

Sending a pic would have shown you are confident about your looks.

Not sending it after telling her she doesn't know what you look like will make her feel you are just another creep without a face out there trying to get something from her because she is such a hot nude model.

 

[AdamC]

Ahha...
Well, I do have a couple charming pics - even though I do hate being in front of the camera.
The interaction with her is done and over now, but it's good to know for the next one!

 

[gameboy]

Also, posting the real name of the girl is against the forum rules I believe... better edit it out. You never know on the public internet, lots of weirdos around.

 

[AdamC]

Oh okay. will do.
Thanks...

 

[Skills]

As someone that's been working on their texting, here are some things that stood out to me about your texting:

1. You went for the hard close too soon.

Maybe refer to Skills texting guide on proper sequence.
Open>Banter>Rapport>Soft Close>Hard Close
Your's went Open>Hard Close

2. Too much texts from you compared to her.

Notice how she's very candid and concise
The LOLE still applies to texting so sending shorter texts is always ideal

3. Too grammatically correct

Its a minor thing and not too many people talk about this but I feel like having perfect grammar is bad for seduction
It telegraphs too much interest/investment on your part
So when I text I will sometimes start sentences with lowercase, not use commas, fullstops, question marks etc
And often times if I make a typo I wont bother correcting it
Just send the text as it is
The lady in the texts kind of does this too. No question marks on some of her questions
But when I look at your texts, they are long, commas are meticulous, fullstops, punctuation etc

4. Too many questions

This is self explanatory
Try using more statements rather than questions

Also I learnt not to ask girls interview type questions like Whats your story and How would you honestly describe yourself
They put a lot of mental load on the girl because essentially what youre asking the girl to do is summarise the totality of her existence into one answer.
Now she has to pause and think What IS my story? and get all existential
If it was me I'd go for easier/manageable questions like "When did you get into modelling?" then build the conversation off that

Bonus example is asking girls what their favourite anything is.
Don't ask "What's your greatest movie of all time?"
Instead ask "What's a movie you really like"
Otherwise she has to stop and start mentally sifting through the many movies she's watched and ranking them mentally to find the greatest movie of all time
But if you ask her to tell you a movie she likes that becomes an easier question to answer

Basically, when asking questions keep it light

5. Intent
You went for the hardclose too soon then when she rebuffed you, you denied that you were interested in a date with her.
Said you guys dont know each other and she doesnt even know how you look.
So she went on and asked for your pic which you again deflected.

So up to this point the girl doesnt know what you want.
Your intent.
And this can easily be seen as wishy washy behaviour
Not very masculine/attractive

Watch PWF on Youtube. He has great texting advice

Wow very good, you get it
....

 

[rockstar]

The conversation invitation was a professionally legitimate offer in the beginning. With anyone I potentially shoot with, male of female, we have a discussion to see if our creative personalities match, what the direction of the shoot will be, if there are any themes we'd like to shoot, character, wardrobe. Like a Director discussing a scene, characterization, look, feel, etcetera...

So how do you show intent without giving away your power? And remain mysterious?
If I just gave her the pic, then I could-of just given the Frame, and potentially my power away.
But obviously the way I did do it, didn't work either - so there has to be a middle ground...

The conversation that you posted doesn't read as professional at all. When I reach out to models for similar collaborations, I make it clear 1. what I want to do/make/accomplish with them and 2. why I'm reaching out to them specifically. I don't ask random, vague, conversational questions like "what's your story" (kind of a waste of both of our time to email about that). Nor would I ask them to meet to see if our "creative personalities match" (also a waste of time and makes you sound kinda goofy and unserious).

But the fact that your posting it on this forum is evidence that this wasn't a professional thing. Otherwise you would be posting this in a photography/content community asking about how to reach out to people for collaborations. Instead your posing on a dating forum. Because the goal you care about is dating.

I'll just go ahead and give you this piece of advice: keep your photography work/art separate from your dating life. That's not to say that you can't shoot girls that you're dating or that you can't date models. But don't hit on girls that you're working with. And definitely don't use work as an excuse to try to meet models to date them. It's weird, creepy, there are a bunch of guys who try to do this, and girls who work in this space are aware of it. I have a blacklist with names of photographers who sent sexual messages to or made unwanted advances on models from content events/projects that I lead/hosted. It's the most common reason that I stop collaborating with or recommending photographers. If you want to date girls, then just date them. If you want to work with girls, then work with them.

Some other notes:

Her:
Like a date?
I’m seeing someone

Me:
Well, I'm flattered you'd consider me date material Li - eye wink thingy...
But, we've never met eachother in person, and don't know eachother at all outside of a couple emails here and there.
And, I don't even think you even really know what I look like :/

I generally like to do some frame damage control on rejections like this, but this is pushing it too far. Look at how low investment her messages are. And then you're going on about being "flattered she considers you dating material". If you were trying to work with her, you can control here with "Sorry, I think you misunderstood. I don't date people I work with. I reached out to you because I'm looking for a model to shoot a 30-piece blahblahstyle fashion collection for X brand and... etc.) or whatever. But you do want to date her. In which case you should take a step back and realize you're trying to hit on someone from your professional network who's not even single...over email.

Her:
Ok. So what do you look like

Me:
Well Li, some have called me "dashing with a bit of an edge..."
But I'm curious how you'd honestly describe yourself?
I can imagine you get look compliments all the time, right?

First sentence is cringe as fuck. It's giving 2010 neckbeard fedora guy. And then you're asking for way more investment than you have the compliance for.

Her:
Do you have a pic

Me:
Yeah, but I'm more of a fan of being behind the camera than in front of it...
You?

You just mentioned that she doesn't know what you look like and now you're scared of showing her a picture of yourself? And then you ask her for a picture of herself? Over email? A model that you were "reaching out to for professional purposes"?

I know I'm being harsh here, but this is kind of a trainwreck. Your focus should not be on "not giving your power away" or " being mysterious" or "holding the frame". It should be on being calibrated, being aware of what the girl is thinking, and not coming off so weird.

 

[Will_V]

Hey Everyone,

So it's been a busy week if you have seen my other posts. I guess when it rains it pours - right?

Anyway, below is an email interaction I had with an Erotic Nude Model.
It began out of a professional interaction. She's a fan of my photography and part of my professional exclusive email-out list.
She responded to a general email-out I sent last week involving the solar eclipse...

Now I tried to practice Frame Control here, turning around her frame as well as getting Compliance.
It didn't work out as well as I liked, and would like some suggestions here.

Maybe actually get the "meet-up" (even though logistically it isn't very realistic since she's about 2 hours away from me given distance and traffic)

Here's the interaction:

Me:
Hey Liz,
So are you still modeling?
And what's your story?
Are you still based in Chino Hills as well?
Just curious.

Adam Chrysler
Fine Art Photographer

Her:
I’m still modeling. Just not as much
I’m in chino hills
Li

Me:
Li,
I might be visiting Chino Hills next week to take care of some stuff .
What are your thoughts about possibly meeting up to see if our creative personalities match?

Her:
Like a date?
I’m seeing someone

Me:
Well, I'm flattered you'd consider me date material Li - eye wink thingy...
But, we've never met eachother in person, and don't know eachother at all outside of a couple emails here and there.
And, I don't even think you even really know what I look like :/

Her:
Ok. So what do you look like

Me:
Well Li, some have called me "dashing with a bit of an edge..."
But I'm curious how you'd honestly describe yourself?
I can imagine you get look compliments all the time, right?

Her:
Do you have a pic

Me:
Yeah, but I'm more of a fan of being behind the camera than in front of it...
You?

And then SILENCE...

It's been a couple of days.
I was trying hard not to fall into her Frame, yet I think she got bored, pissed-off, or thought I was faking.
Funny thing is that my Picture is on my website under the about section so she could just see it there if she looks at my work.

Anyway, she does look pretty delicious. And I wouldn't necessarily say no to going out there to meet-up.

However, I do want to know how to do Better Frame Control, and gain Compliance with a "Strong, Independent, Sexually Experienced Female" like her since I have a handful of other "Strong, Independent, Sexually Experienced Females" in my sphere.

One is an OnlyFans Female. One is a Marvel Studios Actress. And another is an On-Air Meteorologist.
All with "spiceeey" personalities who Shit Test A-lot!!

Looking forward to the groups thoughts...

- Adam C

@rockstar nailed it again.

The problem here is that (sorry to be blunt) your messages come across as coy, over the top, and try-hard, this is a clear signal to her that you think she's out of your league. Being chill and straightforward and treating her like just another girl (while hinting at your own value) would work much better.

 

[rockstar]

@rockstar nailed it again.

The problem here is that (sorry to be blunt) your messages come across as coy, over the top, and try-hard, this is a clear signal to her that you think she's out of your league. Being chill and straightforward and treating her like just another girl (while hinting at your own value) would work much better.

Yes, coy was the word I was looking for for the chase-framing message. Not that you can't ever be coy, but acting coy when you have such low compliance comes off as super uncalibrated. When you try to impose a frame like that, it needs to be realistic enough for the other person to accept it. In this case, it's not, so you just sound kinda clueless/delusional, and completely unaware of where she's at in the interaction. (There's something to be said about frame control regarding your own thoughts/feelings/state vs. the girl's, and you mostly have leeway with the former. You want the girl to feel understood, so you can't impose a frame that she wants/things/believes/feels something that she clearly doesn't. This is a little abstract though). This is all referring to the "I'm flattered you consider me dating material" text.


While I'm thinking about this, another point:

If I just gave her the pic, then I could-of just given the Frame, and potentially my power away.
But obviously the way I did do it, didn't work either - so there has to be a middle ground...

People will give game advice like "you need to be in control, you need to be dominant, etc", but this doesn't mean that you have to never do anything a girl asks of you or never cooperate with her. Taking it to that extreme is just weird. If someone is asking you on a date and you don't know what they look like, it's very reasonable to ask them for a picture. If they decline, you'd start asking yourself "why don't they want me to know what they look like? are they ugly? are they hiding something?".

Your words and actions need to make sense. When people say that you need to be in control, that means you lead the interaction where you (and the girl to some extent) want it to go in a smooth way. It also means you don't let the girl make silly/ridiculous demands of you, but sending a photo of yourself is not that. Unless she's already seen 10 photos of you and very well knows what you look like - you can deny that if you want. Ideally, seduction should be collaborative and shouldn't involve too much "strongarming" (though many guys do make the mistake of being too weak/passive).

Some of these techniques like chase framing and different frame control things can be very powerful when used in a smart way, but they aren't magic incantations. Learning game is only so much of a "shortcut". You still need to have the social awareness. You can't just skip everything and act like you're the super cool guy who every girl wants and everyone defers to. You have to actually become that person. And a lot of this social awareness just takes time. The more time you spend around people cooler than you the better. Aiming high is great - you shouldn't shy away from that - but you also need to master the more fundamental social skills. Because you can't be the uber-player when you make basic social mistakes. Not trying to pile on this too much, I'm talking about it because I used to make this mistake too. I wanted to be cool, have game, sleep with the popular girls, but did and said things that betrayed low-value. But I wasn't aware that they were low value

 

[Will_V]

Yes, coy was the word I was looking for for the chase-framing message. Not that you can't ever be coy, but acting coy when you have such low compliance comes off as super uncalibrated. When you try to impose a frame like that, it needs to be realistic enough for the other person to accept it. In this case, it's not, so you just sound kinda clueless/delusional, and completely unaware of where she's at in the interaction. (There's something to be said about frame control regarding your own thoughts/feelings/state vs. the girl's, and you mostly have leeway with the former. You want the girl to feel understood, so you can't impose a frame that she wants/things/believes/feels something that she clearly doesn't. This is a little abstract though). This is all referring to the "I'm flattered you consider me dating material" text.


While I'm thinking about this, another point:


People will give game advice like "you need to be in control, you need to be dominant, etc", but this doesn't mean that you have to never do anything a girl asks of you or never cooperate with her. Taking it to that extreme is just weird. If someone is asking you on a date and you don't know what they look like, it's very reasonable to ask them for a picture. If they decline, you'd start asking yourself "why don't they want me to know what they look like? are they ugly? are they hiding something?".

Your words and actions need to make sense. When people say that you need to be in control, that means you lead the interaction where you (and the girl to some extent) want it to go in a smooth way. It also means you don't let the girl make silly/ridiculous demands of you, but sending a photo of yourself is not that. Unless she's already seen 10 photos of you and very well knows what you look like - you can deny that if you want. Ideally, seduction should be collaborative and shouldn't involve too much "strongarming" (though many guys do make the mistake of being too weak/passive).

Some of these techniques like chase framing and different frame control things can be very powerful when used in a smart way, but they aren't magic incantations. Learning game is only so much of a "shortcut". You still need to have the social awareness. You can't just skip everything and act like you're the super cool guy who every girl wants and everyone defers to. You have to actually become that person. And a lot of this social awareness just takes time. The more time you spend around people cooler than you the better. Aiming high is great - you shouldn't shy away from that - but you also need to master the more fundamental social skills. Because you can't be the uber-player when you make basic social mistakes. Not trying to pile on this too much, I'm talking about it because I used to make this mistake too. I wanted to be cool, have game, sleep with the popular girls, but did and said things that betrayed low-value. But I wasn't aware that they were low value

Good points all and especially you can't be coy a) right off the bat when she has no buy-in at all and probably even thinks it's a professional interaction and b) while she's asking you for something like a pic, it comes off as if you're hiding something.

 

[AdamC]

Interesting stuff...
Appreciate all for sharing.