Outcome Independence and Hotness

[Bboy100]

Hey guys,

So, I've noticed that as a general pattern, the more beautiful/sexy (yes I know they're different, but for the sake of this post, we'll lump them all into one) a girl is, the more I end up mentally investing in her prior to actually going on a date with her, the more conservatively I behave on the date and the less outcome independence I have.

Here are the three "types" of dates I have seem to have, and the mentality that goes along with them:
1. A girl who barley passes as "cute". Normally, I'll go out with girls like this to practice more than anything else. With these girls, I have a relatively high level of outcome independence. My mentality with them is something along the lines of "aww, isn't she adorable? I'd be quite the catch for her." I typically perform marginally better with them then any of my other dates. The problem I run into with these girls is that I'm usually not attracted enough to them to even want to move forward. Like, I don't even want to kiss/have sex with them, so I don't.
2. A girl who's relatively but not VERY attractive. Prior to the date, I think about her/what I'm going to do a little bit, but for the most part, I don't worry about it too much. My thought process is "Ok, well she's pretty cute, but let's see what else she's got going for her". Typically, I go out with them, do ok but not great, so I assume I need to "build more attraction". In reality I end up moving too slow and lose them.
3. A girl who's very attractive. In my case, they're usually models, cheerleaders or they just happen to be very good looking. With this girl, I end up ruminating about her prior to the date a LOT. This is also the only category of girl with which I sometimes doubt myself/ whether or not I have enough "value" (all while being aware that value is a very subjective non-existent thing!). My thought process with them starts out being similar to Date type #2. But as I think about them more and more, it eventually becomes "Uh oh, this girl seems really attractive and cool and sweet and [Insert more positive traits which I've unjustifiably attributed to her here]. I really better not screw this up, cause I know I'll feel like shit if I do!"

For example, I'm going out with a girl in a few days who's a successful model, gets 200+ likes on FB per post, is very sexy (i.e. knows how to dress walk, talk act etc. to be attractive), stays in good shape, goes to school, is older than me etc.
Even though all these things are very superficial and have nothing to do with how the social dynamic between the two of us will play out AND I do most of those things too (including some modeling lol), I can't help but feel anxious, like she's "out of my league". This has happened with several other very attractive girls. As a result, when I do finally go on the date, I'm very nervous and I feel like I "don't belong there". So, I project a very creepy vibe. Needless to say, it usually goes nowhere. lol.
Also, with this specific girl, because her thin slice (My snapshot judgement of her) is exactly that of the type of girl I like, this effect seems to be amplified.

Thoughts?

 

[Lover]

Hey Bboy

I am also struggling with getting my mindset right around hotter women, almost in the same manner as you are. I recently got a tip on how to overcome this, and I think you'll find it useful!

https://boards.girlschase.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10401

a-jay

 

[Smith]

Bboy,

This is a sticking point of mine too. Read my other post on ajay's thread. Try Julien's advice. Treat all girls with the same dedication. Have genuine fun with unattractive girls.

But as I think about them more and more, it eventually becomes "Uh oh, this girl seems really attractive and cool and sweet and [Insert more positive traits which I've unjustifiably attributed to her here]. I really better not screw this up, cause I know I'll feel like shit if I do!

remove this thought pattern from you completely. It's setting up unconscious bad habit that makes you nervous. I think the reason we behave more conservatively around the very attractive girl is because we are afraid of "losing her" and that they're "a dime in the rough". This is only on the surface level, but on a deeper level I think that fear could come from your ego trying to become a "high value man" by seeking her validation to make yourself feel good and by avoiding rejection from a girl you do care about sleeping with. Instead of the "care free, I'm inviting you into my party" vibe, you start to have the "oh shit, how do I get into her party by saying the right things?" This makes you less likely to take risk, you start to filter yourself hoping you can create some sort of connection with her and maybe you might start to do more "push" on her because you think you need to make her more attracted to you. You ended up not following the process that had work so well on those other "average" girls, because you think these girls need better "game". All these are some of the mindsets I used to have and they're bad. So stop categorizing girls into three different categories, i.e. barely cute, attractive and very attractive. They're just girls.
Ever since I tried to move things forward with girls I'm not interested to sleep with, I found that I could get the same type of objections I got with girls I'm interested in. It made me realize how slow I have been learning by not pushing things forward and sharpening my blade every chance I get, and also that girls are just girls.
Chase also has an article on this https://www.girlschase.com/content/...chase&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=sidebar

 

[Bboy100]

Thanks A-jay! That post was indeed helpful.

I'm actually already kinda doing the whole "talk to all girls, regardless of how attractive they are". Not just to become comfortable, but because I genuinely like people, so even if I don't intend to have sex with her, some playful+fun conversation can still be fun.

remove this thought pattern from you completely. It's setting up unconscious bad habit that makes you nervous.

Absolutely. I know this for sure. The problem is that I don't always have control over my thoughts and feelings. If I could, I would view all girls as silly and cute (i.e. the way I view girls from Scenario #1).

One thing to note is that I'm facing a slightly different problem than what Chase talks about in the article. For me, their "hotness" is only a catalyst for the real reason for why I start to feel anxiety: I start to unjustifiably attribute positive traits to her. Once I've (unwillingly) planted the idea in my mind that she has a bunch of great things going on in her life, and that she is indeed a great person (beyond her appearance), that's when I start to feel nervous.

In fact, I don't feel any more nervous talking to a very attractive girl than I do to a just "okay" girl when I initially talk to her. It's only once I get her #, then I setup the date, and I start to think about what she's like that my negative thought patterns start to come into play.

As a side note: I actually read about this in my psych textbook too. Apparently, we all associate positive traits with those who are better looking, and negative traits with those who aren't. Even babies coo more often at more attractive faces.

So stop categorizing girls into three different categories, i.e. barely cute, attractive and very attractive. They're just girls.

Any ideas on how? I mean...I don't intentionally do it. It's just something that naturally happens. I see a girl, and how excited I am to meet her is very relative to how good looking she is.

 

[Smith]

Absolutely. I know this for sure. The problem is that I don't always have control over my thoughts and feelings. If I could, I would view all girls as silly and cute (i.e. the way I view girls from Scenario #1).

You do have control over your thoughts and hence your feelings. That's why meditation is helpful in controlling anxiety and depression. It takes times to "rewire" your brain to a different thought pattern and you have to be conscious of your thoughts in situations where you're likely to exhibit bad behaviours.

One thing to note is that I'm facing a slightly different problem than what Chase talks about in the article. For me, their "hotness" is only a catalyst for the real reason for why I start to feel anxiety: I start to unjustifiably attribute positive traits to her. Once I've (unwillingly) planted the idea in my mind that she has a bunch of great things going on in her life, and that she is indeed a great person (beyond her appearance), that's when I start to feel nervous.

In fact, I don't feel any more nervous talking to a very attractive girl than I do to a just "okay" girl when I initially talk to her. It's only once I get her #, then I setup the date, and I start to think about what she's like that my negative thought patterns start to come into play.

As a side note: I actually read about this in my psych textbook too. Apparently, we all associate positive traits with those who are better looking, and negative traits with those who aren't. Even babies coo more often at more attractive faces.

I think you just need to start policing your thoughts whenever you start to associate positive traits to these girls, and even just be aware of what your body is doing whenever you're out on a date with them. Are you getting more tense? taking shallower breaths? Have internal awareness on what your thoughts and physiology are doing to you, then just listen to your thoughts partially. Pretend you're walking on the edge of a cliff....can you even entertain the thought of jumping off?

Any ideas on how? I mean...I don't intentionally do it. It's just something that naturally happens. I see a girl, and how excited I am to meet her is very relative to how good looking she is.

You just don't do it...sure you're excited to see her because she looks attractive, but you don't need to put a label on it. If you look at what you wrote, you pretty much categorize your experience with girls based on their look. It's a negative cycle that's feeding back on itself. It is human nature to put a meaning in everything. When you meet a good looking girl and she gives you her number, your mind will have the tendency to blow it out of proportion to boost your ego. Don't let it. Consciously create habits because habits unconsciously runs your life.

Hope this makes sense! kinda writing this as I'm sleepy.

 

[Bboy100]

I think you just need to start policing your thoughts whenever you start to associate positive traits to these girls, and even just be aware of what your body is doing whenever you're out on a date with them. Are you getting more tense? taking shallower breaths? Have internal awareness on what your thoughts and physiology are doing to you, then just listen to your thoughts partially. Pretend you're walking on the edge of a cliff....can you even entertain the thought of jumping off?

Interesting. I'm not really familiar with the concept of policing my thoughts. How does that go? As for physiology, yeah, I knew these things, but I never made an effort to consciously pay attention to them on a date. ...I'll definitely start doing that.

You just don't do it...sure you're excited to see her because she looks attractive, but you don't need to put a label on it. If you look at what you wrote, you pretty much categorize your experience with girls based on their look. It's a negative cycle that's feeding back on itself. It is human nature to put a meaning in everything. When you meet a good looking girl and she gives you her number, your mind will have the tendency to blow it out of proportion to boost your ego. Don't let it. Consciously create habits because habits unconsciously runs your life

Ohh, ok. I see what you mean. I actually don't normally categorize them like this. I only separated them out to add more clarity to this post. Prior to actually going out on a date with them, I don't think "she's kinda cute, really cute, not cute".

Best thing I have done is actually make myself approach way more intimidating girls. After you've been doing this long enough, you can predict the outcomes of most interactions in a matter of minutes and after approaching a lot of high status great looking girls, you realize they are generally the same as other girls who aren't and that you have roughly the same chances with them that you have with any girls.

That's good to know! I always assumed that more attractive women have a different worldview because of the amount of attention they're given for their beauty by both men and women alike.

 

[Bboy100]

Reviving an old post here. Figured its better than writing a new one. Since the topic is basically the same.

Anyways, after further introspection, I've come to the realization that it might not necessarily be "hot" girls which throw me off. It's girls who seem "high value". Or more specifically, if she seems like she hangs out with other high value men.If I go to a club, a party or do day game or something, and I see a hot girl, she typically has her friends with her. Who are also usually pretty hot. And if there are any guys, I kinda just assume high value by association (I guess social proof/preselection can even effect other guys. lol). On the other hand, my social circle is pretty lackluster. The girls in it aren't really all that attractive and the guys with the exception of maybe one are pretty low value.

And I almost feel like these "hot girls" who are "high value" are out "out of my league" because the people they hang out with obviously must lead cooler lives, be more socially calibrated etc.
Why? Because obviously, if I was like them, I would also have a cool social circle filled with hot girls and high value men.

On a logical level, I understand this is false. Girls don't care about what my friends are like after they've already had a good initial impression of me. And while it might be true that I should have more hot girl friends, we have to consider the fact that most of these "high value" guys are intentionally networking and expanding their social circles because that's the only way they know how to get girls. Me on the other hand...I would be glad to have more high value guy friends and hot girl friends but, that still comes secondary to directly improving myself as a seducer. In other words, I don't use it as my primary tool for attracting women, whereas these other guys likely do. Ergo, I still might be higher value than the guys these girls hang out with. It's just not as visible because there isn't a clear physical manifestation of my value (other than my fundamentals).

Still though, we have to accept that this doesn't change the physiology behind everything. The way I "feel" isn't directly controlled by the way I logically think. So having conscious knowledge of all this is only the first step.

Would you guys still prescribe approaching more hot girls/intimidating situations & monitoring my thoughts+physiology/meditation as treatment for this issue? Or is there something else I can do now that I've zeroed in on the problem a little more?



And I know this is opening a whole different can of worms but it also leaves me wondering: How exactly do I expand my social circle/find hotter girls and cooler guys to hang out with? I know I said I don't care for it as much as I do improving m skill. And this is true. But developing a cooler social circle/better social life is still something I'd like to do.
Despite all my progress with seducing women one on one, I feel like my socializing in general hasn't improved all that much. So I feel pretty clueless as to how I would go about building and managing social circles.
Keep in mind I am in college. So it should be relatively easy. But somehow, I still can't figure it out. lol

 

[Lotus]

Bboy,

Just continue to talk to everyone when you are out and about. Every guy and every girl you meet talk to is an opportunity to network and build your social circle. Eventually you will talk to enough people that 1-you will run into cool guys and cool girls and 2- it will help to remove that mental block beacuse people will just be people. Conversation will flow with the fat women behind the register as easy as the hot girl shopping for groceries/buying books at the school store.

I know I said I don't care for it as much as I do improving m skill. And this is true. But developing a cooler social circle/better social life is still something I'd like to do.

In reality they are one in the same. Seduction = social ability + ability to move things forward. Those high value guys are already halfway there, if only they knew how to leverage their social circles and cold approach.

Don't undervalue the power of social circle just beacuse clueless guys don't use it correctly. Networking is immensely powerful in career development as well. I'm currently using it to help find my next job.... I only wish my current network was bigger so I could relocate easier.

Keep in mind I am in college. So it should be relatively easy. But somehow, I still can't figure it out. lol

The easiest way is to join school sponsored groups, events and clubs. I'm not sure what your hobbies are but there are groups for everyone from club football to card clubs. I was never involved with the SGA but I think it would be a pretty easy way to meet new people.

Also, you can friendzone some of the girls you don't end up dating or sleeping with to access their circles.

Hope this helps some,

- Taylor

 

[Bboy100]

In reality they are one in the same

I've heard this a lot. And its probably true to a degree. But for some reason, I'm pretty terrible in groups. Like, when i'm 1 on 1 with a girl, I have a process and I know exactly what to do because I've practiced it. And in general, there are a lot fewer variables and wildcards. Whereas in groups, I feel like there are so many other factors. Other girls and guys. Guys trying to tool me, people not giving me their full attention because its a group env as opposed to 1 on 1. It feels completely different. As a result, I'm actually pretty bad at making new friends in groups. My skills in seduction seem to be very specific to 1 on 1 situations and approaching girls I don't know. This is especially true when I find myself the only person people don't know in the group. Recently, there have been a few incidents where I'm invited to someone's social circle, and everyone knows everyone else there except me. So
1. They have no incentive to talk to me because they already have "entertainment" so to speak.
2. Their topics of conversation are typically not easily relatable because they're talking about people they all know or things they've all done together in the past.
3. After a while, if I don't successfully integrate myself/start actually talking to people, it creates this feeling like I'm an "outsider" and it makes me look/feel kinda creepy.

Also, you can friendzone some of the girls you don't end up dating or sleeping with to access their social circles

I actually tried this one time and it didn't work out very well for me. I went on a date with this girl and missed an EW (although I didn't know that at the time. lol). Anyways, she gave me the whole "I just wanna be friends" text. And I said I'm ok with that (cause she lived in a house with nine other girls. And they throw parties pretty often). So her social circle would have been pretty cool. Anyways, even when I said I'm ok with it, she never replied. Is this normal? Or just an isolated incident?

 

[Lotus]

I've heard this a lot. And its probably true to a degree. But for some reason, I'm pretty terrible in groups. Like, when i'm 1 on 1 with a girl, I have a process and I know exactly what to do because I've practiced it. And in general, there are a lot fewer variables and wildcards. Whereas in groups, I feel like there are so many other factors

Yeah definitely, the same principles apply but the dynamics of how you apply them changes. Deep diving, rapport and banter are still important but you can't follow the same process you do 1v1. Conversation doesn't flow linear at all topics bounce all over the fucking place. Lots of people vying for attention so the value you bring to the conversation is way more important than body language and eye contact.

1. They have no incentive to talk to me because they already have "entertainment" so to speak.

That just means your not adding enough value to the conversation, which you address in your next point.

Dale Carnegie's - How to make friends and influence people might be worth reading if you haven't. He extensively talks about bringing value to others to show them they are important... Chase has pulled a lot of stuff from it already but it's still a great read that I believe would help with the group social aspect.

2. Their topics of conversation are typically not easily relatable because they're talking about people they all know or things they've all done together in the past.

You can ask questions or make inferences based on the stories. "wow you guys must be good friends, how long have you all known each other?" The important thing is not to try to make the conversation about you but to ride the thread with them.

3. After a while, if I don't successfully integrate myself/start actually talking to people, it creates this feeling like I'm an "outsider" and it makes me look/feel kinda creepy.

I would relate it to feeling uncomfortable when you aren't talking to anyone at the bar. People notice less than you think as long as you are comfortable not talking always talking. If you feel awkward your body language will begin to show awkwardness... I got caught doing this a couple of weeks ago and it didn't end well, but yeah if you don't break in it can get weird.


As you said the 1v1 process doesn't work, so you really have to think on your feet and bring value. Ask questions, make inferences, light banter here and there. Don't just focus on the girls though learn about the guys as well, learn how the group works. It might help to visualize the group as one entity that you want to dissect and understand. Just like trying to understand one specific girl.

Tooling in groups, I mostly just brush it off like it doesn't bother me. The guys are trying to find your value and see where on the ladder you stand... fuck the ladder.

I've never thought about group socializing on this level so bear with me if it doesn't make much sense, but group is hard it's something I have unconsciously developed for years. I did find an article I had never read and browsed it really quickly:

https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-b ... cial-group

actually tried this one time and it didn't work out very well for me. I went on a date with this girl and missed an EW (although I didn't know that at the time. lol). Anyways, she gave me the whole "I just wanna be friends" text. And I said I'm ok with that (cause she lived in a house with nine other girls. And they throw parties pretty often). So her social circle would have been pretty cool. Anyways, even when I said I'm ok with it, she never replied. Is this normal? Or just an isolated incident?

In that instance she was letting you down easy because she wasn't interested, I doubt she ever wanted to be friends.

I think it depends on who initiates. When you say it she is likely to stick around in hope she can win you over. So when a girl says it, it really means "I'm not interested". The only time I have had a girl say it and remain friends was back during social circle game in high school when in reality I was already in the friend zone.

 

[Bboy100]

That just means your not adding enough value to the conversation, which you address in your next point

Just downloaded Carnegie's book. Hopefully, it'll give me some in-depth answers. Also, the way you phrased that response got me thinking- in groups, should I actively be looking to add new conversation threads as opposed to relating to old ones? Because I've always been the silent listen+relate type of guy more than the social guy who just talks forever. But I feel like if I haven't yet shown any value, people might not care about how I relate. So it might be necessary for me to have some good conversation threads of my own first?

 

[Lotus]

Also, the way you phrased that response got me thinking- in groups, should I actively be looking to add new conversation threads as opposed to relating to old ones? Because I've always been the silent listen+relate type of guy more than the social guy who just talks forever. But I feel like if I haven't yet shown any value, people might not care about how I relate.

Try listen + relate + question.

Correct, people care about themselves way more than they care about you and when they don't know your value the effect is multiplied. So you want to allow them to talk until your value is recognized. Most people don't actually listen, they are having their own conversations in their head and talk about what they want to talk about. Communicating, "Hey, I'm listening. Tell me more." will set you apart.

You can show plenty of value without talking about yourself at all.

In rich(high energy) conversation, where things move rapidly, you're not always going to be able to get the relating aspect in anyway(at first). When I am trying to warm into a group I'll cut out relating because sometimes it just takes too long to say, and it can come off has "trying too hard" to win approval.

It looks like

Listen + question, or
listen + banter

And it's 1-2 short sentences maximum.When you ask questions the responses will be directed at you, at that point it's easier to relate because you have attention and value.

So it might be necessary for me to have some good conversation threads of my own first?

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by threads of your own?

Every time a question is asked the conversation will take a slight turn and you can call that your thread.
___________________________

But like you said previously you can't follow a process. there are a lot of variables and based upon the people you associate with you may find a approach that works better for you.

 

[Chase]

Bboy, A-Jay, and Smith,

Couple of solutions I've found work pretty well:

1.) Force yourself to think about / fantasize about other girls instead. This one's generally pretty effective. It won't kill ALL apprehension, but makes you a lot calmer on the date itself. Also, don't talk about her or plan to much - try to avoid referring to her aloud or mentally. Maybe try giving yourself a "no thinking about her until we've banged" rule - you still might get nervous after you sleep with her and suddenly you're going, "WHOA that girl was hot - holy crap, wait, am I going to be able to keep her? Will she come out to see me again? What if she get's buyer's remorse?" etc., but it's a lot more manageable at that point since you've already been with her once.

2.) Meet more girls. This one's the magic cure-all. You're there feeling like, "Man, Briana is so damn sexy, I can't stop thinking about her," but you force yourself out and go do more approaches anyway. Then you hit it off with another really pretty girl, and set up a date with her too. Suddenly it's, "Holy hell, now I've got dates with Briana AND Yvette! I'm totally in love with Briana. But wait, I'm totally in love with Yvette too! I wonder if they'd assent to a three-way relationship?" And then you're grinning like an idiot. So then you go get a number from a third girl like this and set up a date with her, and now you're at a kind of default abundance. You'll still be excited, but losing any one of these girls is not such a big deal. And due to the nature of dating, even if you don't close the first two girls, you'll still be thinking well, I had a great first date with Yvette, so I'll follow up with her for a second and maybe shag her then, when you go on the date with the third girl. This one's the best, but it requires more work, because you've actually got to approach until you have multiple promising leads of an equivalently high hotness level for you.

Chase

 

[Bboy100]

Thanks for the help everyone! Sounds like doing more approaches is the long-term solution (as usual).

And thanks for the Social Circle tips Lotus. I'll try to implant that stuff and what I'm reading in Carnegie ' s book in the upcoming school year.