Paying for dates - when you earn more and she offers to pay

[lux7]

After a relationship with a girl who was keen on me sharing my resources (and thought it was crazy I never bought her anything) and after a couple dates ended without sex, I feel like re-assessing the basics of paying / not paying for dates.

Do you think you still lose sexual value and lower your chances of sex when she actually takes out the wallet but you stop her and take care of the check (and both of you kinda know she earns less)?

 

[ray_zorse]

I would look at it like this: If you pay, you definitely won't get sex. If you don't pay, you probably won't get sex, it depends on your game

I exaggerate, but I'm a firm believer in not paying for stuff. Or, ask for an equivalent or higher value thing in exchange. Like you'll pay for dinner and she'll cook for you next time. It's very easy though, just to be at the register ordering and say to her "half and half?" before you order. Doesn't need to be a big deal.

One area where I think it's worth paying is in return for compliance. One thing I do is to keep a loaded Starbucks card in my wallet. Then when I get in the queue with my date, I say to her "order for us?" and hand her the card... she says "ok" and I say "I'll have a blah blah with blah blah", and she goes ahead and orders. I might then scout around for somewhere to sit, and when she arrives with the drinks tell her where to sit, although it's easier just to wait with her and do that later.

Ray

 

[lux7]

I would look at it like this: If you pay, you definitely won't get sex. If you don't pay, you probably won't get sex, it depends on your game

I exaggerate, but I'm a firm believer in not paying for stuff. Or, ask for an equivalent or higher value thing in exchange. Like you'll pay for dinner and she'll cook for you next time. It's very easy though, just to be at the register ordering and say to her "half and half?" before you order. Doesn't need to be a big deal.

One area where I think it's worth paying is in return for compliance. One thing I do is to keep a loaded Starbucks card in my wallet. Then when I get in the queue with my date, I say to her "order for us?" and hand her the card... she says "ok" and I say "I'll have a blah blah with blah blah", and she goes ahead and orders. I might then scout around for somewhere to sit, and when she arrives with the drinks tell her where to sit, although it's easier just to wait with her and do that later.

Ray

Hey Ray, good to hearing from you my friend!

I see you're quite, how to say.. Uncompromising on the topic .
Would you say the same if you were, say, going out with a student obviously short on money or if you were in a poor country as a tourist.. ?

 

[ray_zorse]

I think you have to choose activities that are congruent to her lifestyle. Like if she's a student then she probably doesn't eat in fancy restaurants that much, so take her to a student eatery and both pay the same amount. Or if she lives in a developing country have her show you where the locals eat, you'll have a much better time and she may well not let you pay, since you'll be her guest. If you are doing things she doesn't normally do, either because you were doing it anyway and want her company, or because you want to share the experience... then, pay, but it's best left to after you've laid her and hung out a lot. Another option is you pay for the expensive thing and she repays you with a cheaper thing of equivalent value such as a home cooked meal. I recommend to keep things equal not just because it protects you and makes you more attractive (you don't buy her company, she earns yours), but it avoids trampling on her pride and allows her to see you as her equal. An exception noted by Chase is if you are a squillionaire then paying for stuff doesn't look chasey since any form of negotiation just isn't worth your time, but none of us here are.
Ray

 

[Jaimie Richards]

Hey guys,

As far as I remember, there was a discussion on a somewhat similar topic where Franco gave IMHO great way of looking at it - if I recall correctly, the advice was like: always remember about your vibe. For example: Chase often presents himself as an artist looking for a job right at the moment, so it's kinda obvious that he's not the one paying for stuff. On the other hand, paying for a coffee is just a minor thing, so if you show yourself as someone working a normal job, it shouldn't be so much of a problem. Also important note: it depends who invites and how the invitation is phrased.

My personal rule for now is this: if we consider dates where you invite somewhere, I only do coffee dates where I pay for coffee for both parties at meeting #1 and in the future, if more meetings are to take place, I don't bother anymore, so either a girl returns the favor and pays for coffee or we split the bill. What's your opinion, guys: should I stick to this rule or change something? Also: should I mention that's a rule and follow it (as you do with your rules) or don't mention it and check if a girl is eager to pay and then agree on it?

Cheers,
Jaimie

 

[partytillyoung]

I would say to pay half - half that's the best way, most girls would agree with that.

 

[Thedoctor]

Lux,

As already mentioned, this topic has already been discussed in great detail on the forums (just search "paying for date" and you'll find quite a few informative threads).

Here's one reply I made that may help you:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5255&p=24565&hilit=paying+for+date#p24565

The only other point I wanted to touch one was this:

Do you think you still lose sexual value and lower your chances of sex when she actually takes out the wallet but you stop her and take care of the check (and both of you kinda know she earns less)?

There's no reason why she should have any idea how much money you make. The only people that know how much I make are me and my accountant. That's it. I've been in long term relationships lasting a couple of years and I never told these girls how much money I make. Even if she knows you have a job that typically earns a lot, there could be other factors going on: Maybe you've made some poor investment choices and are facing bankruptcy, for instance. Don't share the info and don't make any assumptions that she knows how much money you have or you know how much money she has.

-John

 

[lux7]

Lux,

As already mentioned, this topic has already been discussed in great detail on the forums (just search "paying for date" and you'll find quite a few informative threads).

Here's one reply I made that may help you:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5255&p=24565&hilit=paying+for+date#p24565

The only other point I wanted to touch one was this:

Do you think you still lose sexual value and lower your chances of sex when she actually takes out the wallet but you stop her and take care of the check (and both of you kinda know she earns less)?

There's no reason why she should have any idea how much money you make. The only people that know how much I make are me and my accountant. That's it. I've been in long term relationships lasting a couple of years and I never told these girls how much money I make. Even if she knows you have a job that typically earns a lot, there could be other factors going on: Maybe you've made some poor investment choices and are facing bankruptcy, for instance. Don't share the info and don't make any assumptions that she knows how much money you have or you know how much money she has.

-John

Hey John, yeah it's a popular topic, but I wanted to be specific of the situation: she offers to pay even though -you both suppose- you earn more.
Doesn't have to be 100% true, but both of you suppose so for obvious reasons.

Ie: if you dress nice Italian clothes and she's a student or has no income, both of you suppose you do earn more (by simply having a job).
Or if you're traveling abroad and she says she'd love traveling abroad but has no money, then again by default you supposedly have more (because you do are traveling).

 

[Chase]

Lux-

Ie: if you dress nice Italian clothes and she's a student or has no income, both of you suppose you do earn more (by simply having a job).
Or if you're traveling abroad and she says she'd love traveling abroad but has no money, then again by default you supposedly have more (because you do are traveling).

It can be okay to pay for dates or even actually productive toward reaching intimacy if you've established a very clear, highly dominant authority position over her and she feels subordinate to you in pretty much all ways throughout the date. e.g., you're clearly better off financially, make more money, have more power and influence, and have led the conversation hard the whole way.

In this case, you paying comes as a sort of "I'm just taking care of this little girl I'm looking out for" move, and it's another high dominance gesture. Most of the guys I've seen who do it are late-30s and up going for girls who are 10+ years their junior. I have known one younger guy who used this to good effect with girls, though he took pains to position himself as a precociously successful businessman and an offerer of sage academic/career advice (with tons of sexy nonverbals to keep the vibe buzzing).

If you're using this approach, make sure you get the check and have your cash/card ready immediately. If she goes for her purse at all, immediately dismiss it with a "don't be silly" facial expression and something like, "No, no, no," then hand the bill & payment to the server and continue the conversation as if nothing happened. It's imperative you make it as small a deal as possible. The more you let her focus on the bill, the more awkward it gets.

If you let it reach the point where it's awkward "decision time", and you're going to pay and you haven't established a clearly dominant frame, you can still nullify any negative impact of paying with a line like, "Let me get this and you can get the ice cream later," or whatnot. This won't make it a positive (it's only a positive when you're coming from a clear dominant/authority position, because then it's not like you're trying to buy her like how it feels when most guys she goes out with pay, but rather that you're taking care of what you know is probably significant for her but is totally insignificant for you), but it'll at least reduce or eliminate any damage it does.

Chase

 

[NarrowJ]

If you let it reach the point where it's awkward "decision time", and you're going to pay and you haven't established a clearly dominant frame, you can still nullify any negative impact of paying with a line like, "Let me get this and you can get the ice cream later," or whatnot. This won't make it a positive (it's only a positive when you're coming from a clear dominant/authority position, because then it's not like you're trying to buy her like how it feels when most guys she goes out with pay, but rather that you're taking care of what you know is probably significant for her but is totally insignificant for you), but it'll at least reduce or eliminate any damage it does.

I like this a lot.

Actually, I don't even make the decision whether or not to pay or split until fairly close to the end of the date. If the date is going really well and she's showing the obvious signs like nervousness and lots of her qualifying herself to me and appears to be walking on eggshells not to lose my interest, then I'll just go ahead and pay (and deter any attention to it). If she seems more neutral about me, I'll go halfsies. It's not going to save you from a poorly executed date, but the more on the fence a girl is, the more significant these little details become.


J.J.

 

[Jaimie Richards]

Actually, I don't even make the decision whether or not to pay or split until fairly close to the end of the date. If the date is going really well and she's showing the obvious signs like nervousness and lots of her qualifying herself to me and appears to be walking on eggshells not to lose my interest, then I'll just go ahead and pay (and deter any attention to it). If she seems more neutral about me, I'll go halfsies. It's not going to save you from a poorly executed date, but the more on the fence a girl is, the more significant these little details become.

Ha, that's great advice which shows great ability to adapt. Thanks for sharing, man!

J.

 

[lux7]

I like the "I take this, you'll take the next", somewhat done that automatically and also help to "save her face" in case she's the kind of gal who might feel like scrounging.

Sounds very good to gauge the situation and decide depending on how it's going.
Wonder how it could get awkward when she might really not have (enough) money with her to split though.

TRAVELER AND DOMINANT FRAME CONUNDRUM
One thing I'd wonder is the traveling scenario and the clearly dominant frame.
It could be much harder to pull when you rely on her to talk to the taxi driver in order not to be ripped off, or she explains you how things work in the city, and you don't even know what to order in the menu.

IT MATTERS LESS ONCE YOU DECIDED ON THE NEXT STEP
One thing I seem to have noticed is that if by the time the check gets in you have already decided on the next step, then it matters less.
Ie.: you are going to the next bar (and you dropped the "next is on you" line) or for a walk, then there's less uncertainty and it's more of a fact of "let's settle the account and move on".

MIGHT AS WELL PAY IF GOING BACK TO YOURS
Or, best scenario, you've already broken the sexual barrier with touching and have decided to go back to yours, then it might be even safer you just pay to avoid the risks of her not having enough and/or seeing you as a cheapo. Paying is a formality as it should be in the bag anyway.



Thoughts... ?

 

[Franco]

lux,

A lot has already been said here (including a few people referring to my opinion on the matter), but I'll give some more clarity as to how it stands for me today. These days, I go with whatever avoids the topic of the "paying" part at all.

If we're at a table having drinks and the waiter brings us the check, I don't even look at it. I continue with whatever conversation I'm having with the girl as if the check was never placed next to us. If she looks at the check and begins to take out her card (or cash), I let her do that and don't say anything about me placing money in there unless she does. However, if the check remains there at the time you're ready to pull and she hasn't reached for it yet, I quickly slide my card in and just pay for it. I'm not strapped for money, so a couple of drinks won't hurt me.

The idea is to not make it a topic of conversation. If a girl wants to pay for you, it's best to do it without her asking and with YOU telling her to pay for it. If you bring up the topic, it shows that you place too much value on this aspect of the date, and any repartee you may have with her suddenly has a "crack" in it. You want to avoid placing any emphasis on the money aspect whatsoever.

In the example of a coffee date where there is a cash register and we are both walking up to it, I usually just pay for the drinks without saying anything. In this scenario, it requires more work to talk to her about how the check is going to be split, so I find it easier and more "fluid" to just pay for them without even bringing it up. If a girl is very forward or very interested in you, she may ask you to get a table for the two of you while she grabs the drinks. In this scenario, I understand that she's basically agreed to pay for the drinks, and I let her do that.

In any case, I find that the best case scenarios are the ones where discussion about the money is non-existent. If you can get away with her paying for it because she takes the initiative, then that's great. It means she didn't mind paying in the first place, and you not offering to pay won't affect her opinion of you. However, in scenarios where she takes a passive role and does not take the initiative to pay, it obviously means she at least feels like the check should be split or paid for by you, so convincing her to pay will only put a dent in the mood. In this scenario, I find it best to just pay for the both of you unless you have a very good reason no to do so (i.e. you're visibly strapped for money and she recognizes this).

NOTE: From my description, it may seem like I hardly ever "split" a check with a girl. And if you did make that assumption, then you're probably right. I rarely split the bill with a girl these days because of the fact that I don't like to talk about it -- she either generally pays for the coffee/drinks in full, or I pay for them in full.

- Franco

 

[lux7]

Franco, do you usually propose the next step before the check or after?

It's a good point of not even noticing it, though it seems you should be really engrossed in a convo to be used at its best (would seem weird if you're taking a look around or talking about the people around you and you don't notice the check).

I wonder if it might be a valuable alternative once she reaches for it if you added "I'll take the next one? ".
Because the fact you don't talk about it doesn't mean she isn't making a judgement about it, and it might also at times be "a bit cheap he's letting me pay it all", especially in the scenario of you having (obviously) more disposable income (would certainly happen more rarely if she's a professional in a western country).

 

[Franco]

lux,

Because the fact you don't talk about it doesn't mean she isn't making a judgement about it, and it might also at times be "a bit cheap he's letting me pay it all", especially in the scenario of you having (obviously) more disposable income (would certainly happen more rarely if she's a professional in a western country).

At that point in the date, you've already (likely) spent at least one entire hour with her. She's either sexually attracted to you, or she isn't. This is one of those situations where, yes, she could be thinking, "he didn't even offer to pay the bill..." and then suddenly you walk out the door with her, you invite her back to your place, she obliges, and you two end up in bed together.

Just the fact that you don't put much focus on it means she probably won't put much focus on it either. Even if she ends up paying and wasn't really wanting to, it doesn't mean that she suddenly forgot about the strong connection and sexual attraction that you built up during the entire date. At that point, if she's worried about the fact that you didn't pay for the check, it means she wasn't really interested in moving things forward with you anyway. In that sense, you could even say the bill served as a screening tool.

- Franco