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Persistence tailored to complement approach and opening

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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Here's a question for the more experienced guys... When persisting with a girl who is clearly interested, but giving resistance, is there mileage in showing a contrasting side of your character to the way you opened?

Specifically: if I opened direct in daytime cold approach, got a phone number within ten minutes, texted next day to set up a date, then moved fast on the date, making my interest very obvious and persistently trying to get the girl alone... received generally good compliance with all of the above except the last, having my eye contact returned in an intense, dreamy fashion, I went for a kiss couple times but she turned her cheek for a peck instead... is there any sense in easing off a bit? Aiming for a more romantic gesture, such as buying an (inexpensive) item she mentioned she liked (a specialty coffee), beautifully hand-wrapping it and mailing it to her?

My reasoning being that she obviously liked me, and explicitly stated her admiration for my boldness in approaching her in the street, but her resistance may indicate that she's afraid I'm not serious, too much of a womanizer or ladies' man, considering the opening style and fast-moving date. Can a romantic (but NOT extravagant) gesture allay this skepticism without being too high-effort or supplicational?
 

PrettyDecent

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Hey Marty,

Marty said:
Specifically: if I opened direct in daytime cold approach, got a phone number within ten minutes, texted next day to set up a date, then moved fast on the date

This all passes :), nice job.

Marty said:
and persistently trying to get the girl alone... received generally good compliance with all of the above except the last

What exactly did that look like? Some background on what you and her said, and on that phase (near the escalation window) of the date would be helpful.

From where I'm seeing it, it's one of a few things:

A.) You were boyfriend-zoned - I'm sure you know how this works, but if a woman is clearly interested and investing in you but is giving you LMR, that's a likely sign she's considering you for the romantic-man's role . Dealing with LMR from the BF role can be difficult, but I'd check out this post on passing LMR. Also, if she's trying to resist that first kiss, but she was obviously interested, you can get a little forceful and use a manhandle kiss. But read the other points before you pull the latter out.

B.) You missed an escalation window/didn't hit it on time/in the wrong place - Yes, they all matter haha. Were you alone in an intimate place? How was the general vibe before you kissed her? If the vibe felt awry, or you felt like you were trying to "save the interaction", then you missed the window.

C.) She had a specific objection to kissing - This is probably the least likely of the three, but it's worth mentioning. Some girls consider kissing a bigger deal than sex, and you'd get laid before you kiss her. Sometimes it's just best to skip that mouth-to-mouth action.

Cheers,
Jake
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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Okay PrettyDecent, this is BRILLIANT, because by asking pointed follow-up questions you have forced me to focus on the right things. Up to now I didn't know what the key issues were and was dreading having to post the whole interaction on the boards, which would be information overkill!

It's not (C), let's just rule that out, I can tell you that by instinct, to save time. Good point though.

The other two are both plausible. Permit me a brief but relevant diversion: I had a similar situation to this a few years ago, but didn't know about moving fast, not over-investing etc., so my actions were less assertive, but I did declare romantic interest pretty much upfront. The similarities are worth considering because both situations involved a girl "on the market", having been recently hurt/disappointed by a man, and me "off the market" due to circumstances beyond my control. The vibe is also extremely similar with uncomfortable tension as our interaction becomes more intimate and kino-driven, combined with obvious, unmistakable signs of interest.

In the earlier situation I got follow-up messages saying things like "it's you to blame for putting such a high crossbar for all men trying to get my attention" and "I haven't met a man with a real man-core and real man characteristics inside since I met you". When I called her out on it, pointing out that I had made my interest obvious and she had effectively rejected me, she wrote back "hahaha... usually I'm stone-hearted? :) You should guess why". I never did guess at the time, but now that I understand auto-rejection, I suspect that (apart from moving too slow) she found my attainability too low.

Back to the present situation. I am going to skip to near the end, based on your follow-up questions. In the cafe she declined food and said she had to visit a friend later for dinner and to collect a crucial item. Great, so I have clarity on my timeframe. I suggest leaving the cafe and going to a park opposite, as it's a beautiful, cool evening. (This is why I chose the cafe: the park is attractive and offers relative isolation sitting on benches, etc. - certainly enough privacy for a kiss.)

She declines and we walk back to a very upscale hotel where her office is located and where her car is parked in the deck. We are walking at a languid pace, standing very close; I am using leading touch, continuing the mood from the beginning of the date when I had given her an immediate cheek kiss and steered her with my hand on the small of her back. I persist again en route for her to stay longer with me. She says there will be other evenings like this when we can meet.

As we reach the hotel I make a third attempt to get her into a private location... there is another attractive garden with fountains outside a major office building opposite the hotel. She laughs: "Why do you want to sit outside? We can sit in the hotel lobby!" Compliance of a sort, I guess... she significantly delayed her departure to her friend's house.

The lobby is deserted and offers all sorts of nooks and crannies. I ignore the armchairs lead her to a loveseat; she sits at a "friendly" distance with her purse between us. I use Chase's line: "What are you sitting all the way over there for? Expecting a friend to join us or something? Sit closer!" and she politely refuses.

We talk for a while, my hand on her arm. She suggests I might be interested in some social events for the international community in our city, which sets off friendzoning alarms all over my mind. I immediately say: "I don't want to do social stuff with you... I didn't stop you in the street because I wanted to be friends, I didn't ask you on a date immediately because I thought you'd be a good friend. I like YOU." Talk about stating the obvious.

She looks at me with a sort of "understanding" expression, and says: "But you're not single, right?"

This is a reference to the approach a couple days earlier; when I first suggested a date, she said "I'm not sure if we should do this...I'm in a relationship" and I persisted as follows:

"Look... I'm kind of attached too..." (this is putting it mildly) "There don't necessarily have to be any expectations, let's just meet for a short time and see what happens." (staring into her eyes) "I'd really like to see you again."

To which she actually replied "Are you sure?" (the first time I have ever had a girl ask me that, and this is one with breathtaking, fairy-tale looks) and then proceeded to OFFER me her phone number unsolicited. I was awestruck, though I didn't let on :)

Back to the end of the date, in the hotel lobby: she continues, "What is your situation?" I look off dramatically into the distance, then meet her eyes and admit that I am married. She asks: "American girl?" and I say no and tell her. I ask her the same question and she replies that she is in divorce proceedings.

At this point I physically remove her purse and put it by my side, move closer, and put my arm around her. We sit like that for a few minutes. I don't remember what passed between us.

Eventually she grabbed her purse back and got up to go. We spoke standing for a few minutes; I leaned in for a kiss, but as I said, this time she turned her head very pointedly to give me a cheek only.

PrettyDecent, I think you're probably on the money with what you said in (B) about me trying to "save the interaction". But (A) could be a component of it too: I have a history of women willing to consider me for serious stuff, but not casual stuff, in spite of my best efforts :) This girl though, I'd happily do the serious stuff if I could, she's very unusual - in a good way :)
 

PrettyDecent

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Hey Marty,

Really great background! I appreciate the details you wrote down.

I'd like to see Chase or Franco's response to this, since their experience could bring some great insight, but here are my thoughts -

I think what's really getting you is this relationship situation. Like, it sounds obvious, but let's think about it. Single girls find guys who are in relationships very attractive (and that correlates with high-value/lower-attainability, yes?). If you've got a decent hold on fundamentals (which it sounds like you do), then it's really easy to tip these girls over the edge, attainability-wise. So it sounds like you're getting boyfriend-zoned. Hard. Here are a few other indicators I saw that this is happening:

Marty said:
In the earlier situation I got follow-up messages saying things like "it's you to blame for putting such a high crossbar for all men trying to get my attention" and "I haven't met a man with a real man-core and real man characteristics inside since I met you".

Marty said:
She says there will be other evenings like this when we can meet.

Marty said:
She suggests I might be interested in some social events for the international community in our city

I'm not sure if the girl in the earlier situation knew you were in a relationship, but if she did, you can take that a sign that things will be a lot easier for you if you remain more ambiguous about your relationship. I might not even bring it up at all. Taking from Chase's ebook, you might say "I'm kind of in that in between stage right now. But anyways you were talking about (a different topic)". You'll get more questions about it, but you've got to deflect it and remain ambiguous. It'll make you all the more mysterious and intriguing. I wouldn't ever be straightforward about that kinda deal, even if you were single.

What to do ON the date though, if something like this happens again either...

A.) Take her by surprise and move blazingly quick - Near a bathroom, for example, you'd need to pull her in and start physically escalating quickly. The word of this category is passion, and you need to set her emotions ablaze for this to work.

B.) Make a move on date 1, but wait till date 3 to close (get laid) - Following some advice I read from Franco on a different post, don't make a move on date 2 (take her out for a fun community event, like a fair), it'll confuse her and make her more intrigued. And then on date 3, you make a move again (preferably in a home over dinner) and you won't face much LMR for the close.

Best thing to do here may be to go for B, since that's the track you're on anyways. She already mentioned future events with you, so take advantage of that. Might check out the article on date compression.

I had more to say, but I've got to go for now. Hopefully that helps!

Cheers,
Jake
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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Hey Jake,

LOVE the way you just cut to the quick.

PrettyDecent said:
Like, it sounds obvious, but let's think about it. Single girls find guys who are in relationships very attractive (and that correlates with high-value/lower-attainability, yes?). If you've got a decent hold on fundamentals (which it sounds like you do), then it's really easy to tip these girls over the edge, attainability-wise. So it sounds like you're getting boyfriend-zoned. Hard.

This really make the point lucidly, Jake. In each such interaction I've had in the past few years, I've been "walking past" the obvious in my mind, dozens of times, without actually seeing WHAT is obvious about it. It's not that they conclude I'm not serious, or abusive or disrespectful to women in general, if I seek lovers outside of a relationship. On the contrary, it's what you said... they get tipped over the edge attainability-wise. And I have unconsciously helped them along the wrong path through what I've been doing!

In 15 Lessons from 10 Years of Getting Girls, Ricardus writes:

Not going sexual on a direct opener in day game causes the girl to be confused about what you want from her… are you looking for a hookup or for something more serious? Clarify that subtly early on by the way you communicate.

Think about it. If you go up to a girl with a direct opener, but without being sexual in either your verbal or nonverbal communication, she may think that you’re so smitten that you want her to be your girlfriend.

...although this is actually just the type of girl I might be smitten by, not that I'd show it if it could be at all avoided! :)

PrettyDecent said:
B.) Make a move on date 1, but wait till date 3 to close (get laid) - Following some advice I read from Franco on a different post, don't make a move on date 2 (take her out for a fun community event, like a fair), it'll confuse her and make her more intrigued. And then on date 3, you make a move again (preferably in a home over dinner) and you won't face much LMR for the close.

I think this sounds brilliant. I remember that post of Franco's. I'll try a variation on that... it may require a bit of an exaggerated gesture first (as per my original post) to get her out again though.

And in any case I have learned a LOT for any such future interaction. Thanks, PD!

-Marty
 

Franco

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Marty,

I can't add too much more than what PD has already given you; the bit about keeping up intrigue and not mentioning that you are attached is also important.

I haven't taken too many women on a date that are already attached, but from my experience, you usually need to be very aggressive (in a suave, charming way) and move quickly with them. A manhandle kiss actually might have been more appropriate here than anything else, but I do understand she was making it difficult to get to a place of isolation. Just the fact that you went on a date with a woman who is already attached might have firmly slotted you in a boyfriend role -- she will be assessing you in comparison to what she already has (a relationship with another man) since you are taking her on a date when she already has a boyfriend/husband rather than what you are trying to be on the date (a sexual man).

In general, if a woman tells you she is in a relationship when you initially meet her, but she still seems to comply with your leading, I would try to make your move right then and there. Lead her to somewhere shortly after you meet her and escalate physically. Courting a woman who has already been courted is going to be a lost cause. She doesn't want another boyfriend... she wants a man who is going to give her a burst of sexually-charged passion, which is something she is probably lacking after an extended period of time in a relationship.

Hope this helps!

- Franco
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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Franco,

Thank you - great suggestions here for how to deal with the current situation as well as what I can do better in similar circumstances in future. What you write about a "burst of passion" really strikes a chord and makes intuitive sense.

One follow-up question if you don't mind. In Turn Offs for Women: What NOT to Do, Chase says the #1 thing to avoid is getting too emotional too soon.

Is the "burst of passion" not in danger of getting too emotional too soon, and if not, why not?

Thanks
-Marty
 

trashKENNUT

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Marty,

Marty said:
She looks at me with a sort of "understanding" expression, and says: "But you're not single, right?"

This is a reference to the approach a couple days earlier; when I first suggested a date, she said "I'm not sure if we should do this...I'm in a relationship" and I persisted as follows:

"Look... I'm kind of attached too..." (this is putting it mildly) "There don't necessarily have to be any expectations, let's just meet for a short time and see what happens." (staring into her eyes) "I'd really like to see you again."

To which she actually replied "Are you sure?" (the first time I have ever had a girl ask me that, and this is one with breathtaking, fairy-tale looks) and then proceeded to OFFER me her phone number unsolicited. I was awestruck, though I didn't let on :)

Back to the end of the date, in the hotel lobby: she continues, "What is your situation?" I look off dramatically into the distance, then meet her eyes and admit that I am married. She asks: "American girl?" and I say no and tell her. I ask her the same question and she replies that she is in divorce proceedings.

At this point I physically remove her purse and put it by my side, move closer, and put my arm around her. We sit like that for a few minutes. I don't remember what passed between us.

Eventually she grabbed her purse back and got up to go. We spoke standing for a few minutes; I leaned in for a kiss, but as I said, this time she turned her head very pointedly to give me a cheek only.

PrettyDecent, I think you're probably on the money with what you said in (B) about me trying to "save the interaction". But (A) could be a component of it too: I have a history of women willing to consider me for serious stuff, but not casual stuff, in spite of my best efforts :) This girl though, I'd happily do the serious stuff if I could, she's very unusual - in a good way :)

I can point out a few things that something you can work on.

1) Fundamentals

She doesn't see you as "sexy".

2) She's in a relationship.

She already told you she's in a relationship. You would have ask her about the relationship and roughly gauge where she's at, or she is. You might land yourself in hot waters with other people in the future.

3) DIvorce

I think we can't really force someone to feel good during this kind of moments. So you probably would try and it won't work out also.

My thoughts
Zac
 

Franco

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Marty,

One follow-up question if you don't mind. In "Turn Offs for Women: What NOT to Do", Chase says the #1 thing to avoid is getting too emotional too soon.

Is the "burst of passion" not in danger of getting too emotional too soon, and if not, why not?

Not even close; you are talking about two entirely different things. The things that Chase lists in that article are things such as buying her gifts, begging her to go out with you, kissing up to her, and just other "needy" things in general.

When I refer to "bursts of passion," I am talking about things like manhandle kissing her, telling her how sexy her ass looks in her jeans, groping her body, kissing her neck, tearing her clothes off... you know, things of that nature. ;)

Bursts of passion are things that are highly sexually charged and bring out the sexual creature in her that craves a dominant man. Getting emotional leads to you doing things that are exactly the opposite, like the needy things I listed above. A dominant man is not emotional, but he is persistent and aggressive. A dominant man who is experienced is also charming, suave, and sexy to add to that.

So when I refer to bursts of passion, think of Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie in this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJAMqnZYAIU

Cheers ;)

- Franco
 
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