Picking Up vs. Building Realtionships

[Estate]

Guys,
I've alluded to this in the past so sorry if I'm dragging up a previous topic... but here goes...

I'm not sure when I learned of GC, maybe 2 years ago? After being through the mill of reading several PUA methods, this was the one that hit home with me... Shiny furry hats and weird lines were just never "me".
I've come a long way. There'll always be guys who are much better and more fine tuned than I am on this board and out in the world but in general I've gone from a guy who had no idea how to talk to women, to someone who really has not had any troubles or lack of sex in the past year or so. It's become less of an obsession to figure it all out for me. I've set other goals in life and revolving life around trying to meet women just isn't a thing anymore. I've focused on quality over quantity, maybe you could say.

But here's where I can't for the life of me figure out the next steps.
10 years ago I rarely met women. But when I did, despite being shy and clueless, could turn it into more of a relationship.
Nowadays, I just can't.

Saying I focus on "quality" over "quantity" is not saying I'm not out there meeting women, but I meet them as I go about what I'm doing, not specifically going out to meet them all the time. I'm meeting more women than I ever have. With some quality has come he ability to be a little more "picky" in terms of who I'd like to pursue or not.

But despite meeting more women, forming a relationship seems like the hardest thing now.
I've tried various strategies. I've gone full GC-Mode and tried taking women to bed soon. While this can make them stick around for more, I've been firmly put in the "lovers" category Chase talks about, not a boyfriend role. In other cases I've tried playing it slower, maintaining what I've learned but dialing back the forwardness a little. Seeing if they are looking for more by not taking them to bed immediately... but in these cases I can only surmise what happens.... maybe a hookup is all she wants and I'm slow playing it. Maybe she thinks I'm a pussy for not taking her to bed when I easily could have. Or any other number of reasons.

But the sum it all up. The end goal of this has always been to build relationships, but obviously not with just anyone. But when situations arise where I might like to go in that direction, I seem to be losing it and I'm not sure if it's my "new" attitude, or other things I do/say. It's a tough one....

 

[Franco]

Estate,

I know you've been battling this one for awhile. Assuming that you've been doing everything that we've suggested before correctly, then I'll come at this from a different angle.

It could be possible that you're putting 100% of your value into the Lover. While this is certainly going to get you laid, it may be leaving women genuinely feeling like you are not a man that they can have a future with. If you notice from some of Chase's articles, he never actually alludes to himself being a "nobody who you should never have a long-term relationship with;" instead, he stays rather mysterious but still feeds them enough about his own personal ambition and aspirations that it sounds like he's a man who actually wants to go somewhere in his life. He has a mission.

For example, I know Chase has had conversations with women where he's stated that he's unemployed, but then he tells them that he's an aspiring writer working on some serious material that he hopes will change the world for the better. This gives a woman some hope; she thinks to herself, "man, this guy has no job at the moment, but he's so sexy and so confident in his ability to succeed that he seems like exactly the type of diamond in the rough that hasn't been grabbed up yet!"

He gives the woman some hope that she's found a man that is under the radar -- he hasn't hit the top yet (so he doesn't have a woman), but she has an opportunity to snag him while he's still working toward his mission of becoming a successful provider. The woman has to know that she's with a man that has big dreams, even if he's just a "lover" at the moment.

I don't know if this is something you have been doing, but I just get the feeling that you've been (unintentionally) putting yourself heavily in the "lover" role without showing enough of your motivation and ambition to become something greater than the lover. Remember, women want a man with all three qualities: the lover, the provider, and the friend. But the thing we try to convey on this website is the order in which you show them each side of you -- lover first (with small hints of a provider), then provider, and then once you're in a relationship, you show them that you can be a good friend too. (EDIT: If you notice, this sequence is exactly the reverse of what mainstream media pushes you toward)

Just something to think about here, Estate. Let me know if you think this sounds about right.

EDIT: Of course, if your goal were to not be in long-term relationships, then you're probably doing exactly what you need to be doing to do that: being 100% lover and 0% provider.

- Franco

 

[PinotNoir]

Yes, I remember you battling this in the past as well. You're probably sick of me commenting on them haha. I think Franco has this really covered.

It's also kind of like.... when you want one thing, you put so much pressure (consciously or subconsciously), that you actually hurt your chances on it. When you want just one-night stands, you end up getting women trying to boyfriend you. When you want a girlfriend, you end up getting women that want one-night stands. This happens a lot in life, but I don't know why.

There are other factors that can affect this as well: where you meet the girl (i.e., what type of girl she is) and age.

If you meet a 21 year old girl at a bar/club, then I think it'll be a little tougher to turn that into a relationship.

If you meet a 31 year old girl on the street (who has put the partying life behind her), then I think it'll be easier to turn that into a relationship, but more LMR.

Your city can even affect this.

For the most recent girl that you tried to turn into a relationship, how did you meet her? How did it end? (Did you 2 just stop talking to each other?)

 

[Estate]

Yep,
I totally understand where you guys are coming from.

In practice though that's just it:
- I move fast = I'm a lover... and that's all it ever is.
- I move slower = She wants a lover thus dismisses me as a pussy for not moving fast enough/Maybe she wants an LTR but maybe I'm still too agressive/not agressive enough.

I really have no idea what EXACTLY it is, it's probably not identical with each girl I've been in this situation with.
I'm just not finding that balance in the real world. I don't know what it is.

@Pinot....
The last girl I tried this with. I didn't bed her right away the first night. I kinda wanted to see she'd stick around if I tried being the "boyfriend" type. i.e. I still pushed things, she seemed pretty hot in my car and a few other times but I decided to take her home and arrange another date.
If I'm honest, I think she just thought I was a pussy for not taking her home when I obviously could have... whereas... it's not what I wanted from her. I wanted to see she would be into more than just getting laid... which wasn't the case in the end.

 

[Chase]

When I first found pickup, I went really hard on doing all the stuff other people was telling me I was supposed to do. That finally pushed me over the edge and started getting me solid, relatively consistent results with girls - I was getting laid, ONSes, girlfriends. However, it reached a point where I realized that I was the one doing all the pursuing, both at the outset and throughout the interaction, and wouldn't it be nice if I was able to get women chasing me like I used to have back in high school, even though I didn't know what to do with that back then?

Then I went through this clumsy period where I was working to integrate pickup - which is straight up "man in pursuit" - with being the guy women climb all over each other to get to - which is the opposite of being in pursuit. How do you take action, open, AND be the mysterious guy that women chase? And it was kind of weird and uncomfortable and it didn't work that well for a while and I saw a slip in results for a bit, but once I nailed it and I had integrated the two into the style that is more or less what I teach on GC now, my results leveled up a lot and I was able to do basically everything I wanted to do at that point.

So, Estate-

I've come a long way. There'll always be guys who are much better and more fine tuned than I am on this board and out in the world but in general I've gone from a guy who had no idea how to talk to women, to someone who really has not had any troubles or lack of sex in the past year or so.

...

But here's where I can't for the life of me figure out the next steps.
10 years ago I rarely met women. But when I did, despite being shy and clueless, could turn it into more of a relationship.
Nowadays, I just can't.

Here's what I would recommend to you as the next step, because you already have both pieces of the puzzle rolling around in your noggin, they just aren't pieced together with one another yet.

You need to focus on integrating what 10 years ago you was doing that made women want to get into relationships with him with what today you is doing that lets him sleep with women much more easily and regularly. You may or may not know precisely what 10 years ago you did, but you know what it felt like, and if you move toward integrating that feeling with the stuff you do now, you will probably crack that nut.

My suspicion is you're probably too far into the lover role - not enough vulnerability, not enough hint of provider value that's progressively revealed as things go along, not nearly attainable enough - but the easiest way for you to remedy the issue isn't going to be to try to learn some new relationship initiation style, but to take the two pieces of the puzzle you already have and put them together.

Chase

 

[Estate]

Well thanks for the responses everyone, much appreciated.

I guess it's going to be more trial and error to strike that balance.

Yes, it's true, I've tried to not be the same dweeb I had been in the past.
I once couldn't get the nerve to kiss a girl until the 4th date, and even then it was a nervous peck on the lips and I practically ran off.... somehow she ended up being a pretty long term girlfriend and I can't for the life of me figure how she waited that long without brushing me off. That's where I get confused... like by all conventional logic, she should have written me off after 1,2 or 3 dates, let alone waiting for a peck on the lips after 4. Yet... hmm.... at the time, it worked. Sometimes it seems so backwards.

As I said, some trial and error required. The funny thing is that obviously you're not trying to actually convert just anyone into a girlfriend so the opportunities are much more less frequent that just meeting women at all... it's only in special cases where you consider them to have LTR potential... so it sort of extra sucks when you can't get it right.

 

[Franco]

Estate,

The funny thing is that obviously you're not trying to actually convert just anyone into a girlfriend so the opportunities are much more less frequent that just meeting women at all... it's only in special cases where you consider them to have LTR potential... so it sort of extra sucks when you can't get it right.

Well, generally if you're doing it right, pretty much every girl you see beyond a one-night stand should be wanting to see you again (and will probably be trying to texting you to try to meet up with you repeatedly). Even the girls that I had no long-term interest in would still try to work their way toward that with me, but I eventually had to cut it off if it's not what I wanted (much to their dismay).

So you should at least practice getting all "casual relationship" girls to work toward investing in you after you've slept with them. If you're JUST doing one-night stands, then yeah, it's hard to get that practice. But also, if you're not able to get past one-nighters with girls you DID want to see again, then it means you're doing something wrong.

You might want to practice getting a handful of girls to want to see you again with relative ease, even if it's not girls you would take as girlfriends -- but good enough to see multiple times for sex. That way, when you actually DO meet a girl you want to keep around, you already have a blueprint in your mind of how to get it done.

- Franco

 

[Estate]

Estate,

The funny thing is that obviously you're not trying to actually convert just anyone into a girlfriend so the opportunities are much more less frequent that just meeting women at all... it's only in special cases where you consider them to have LTR potential... so it sort of extra sucks when you can't get it right.

Well, generally if you're doing it right, pretty much every girl you see beyond a one-night stand should be wanting to see you again (and will probably be trying to texting you to try to meet up with you repeatedly). Even the girls that I had no long-term interest in would still try to work their way toward that with me, but I eventually had to cut it off if it's not what I wanted (much to their dismay).

So you should at least practice getting all "casual relationship" girls to work toward investing in you after you've slept with them. If you're JUST doing one-night stands, then yeah, it's hard to get that practice. But also, if you're not able to get past one-nighters with girls you DID want to see again, then it means you're doing something wrong.

You might want to practice getting a handful of girls to want to see you again with relative ease, even if it's not girls you would take as girlfriends -- but good enough to see multiple times for sex. That way, when you actually DO meet a girl you want to keep around, you already have a blueprint in your mind of how to get it done.

- Franco

True Franco... But I'd draw a line of distinction...
Sleeping with a girl and having her want to see you again for sex, doesn't equal her wanting a relationship (not necessarily anyway).
If she doesn't want seconds at all... well yeah, that's a different story, I agree.

And that's where I've hit the rocks. Since I can do a One-Nighter. And on most occasions the girls are happy to come back for more... that's really as far as the relationship is ever heading. I feel I'm in that "lovers" category, but suddenly trying to switch it to "loving boyfriend" leads to all sorts of confusion and problems.

It seems ridiculous to say this as a guys but... if I REALLY think she MIGHT have potential... I want to know she's sticking around for more than just the sex.
Haha, I sound like a woman... but in a funny way it's almost true at times.

 

[Franco]

Estate,

And that's where I've hit the rocks. Since I can do a One-Nighter. And on most occasions the girls are happy to come back for more... that's really as far as the relationship is ever heading. I feel I'm in that "lovers" category, but suddenly trying to switch it to "loving boyfriend" leads to all sorts of confusion and problems.

So how exactly are the majority of these scenarios playing out? So you sleep with a girl... she texts you because she wants to sleep with you again, and so you sleep with her for a second time. Then after that, how are things playing out? Is she still texting you to come over for more? Do you find yourself having to be the one to text her? If so, how long do you usually wait to do so?

I'm still guessing your problem lies within what Chase and I already mentioned about not giving enough "provider potential" for the girls to have foreseeable futures with you. But I'm asking these questions to flesh out all other possibilities so that we can narrow down your issue and be more sure.

- Franco

 

[Estate]

The scenario would be something like this...

Usually she will initiate contact, ask to see me but it will usually be late on a weekend when I know she's out or after work during the week.
Usually they'll ask just to come to my place and "hang out".

I rarely see potential for it turning into actually meeting outside my or their apartment or anything but what we've been doing. I'm a hookup. In some cases we may have met outside my apartment but it's usually a fascade of grabbing a drink or a quick bite to each around the block before going to my place.

This can go one of two ways... either it continues or at some point I'm deciding it's not going to become more and phase out the "hanging out" if I'm not into continuing this situation.
In most cases I'm not into it, because I'd rather go meet other girls and see what happens than continuing to see the same one in this way beyond a certain point.

I COULD try push it in a different direction but that's where it seems to become complicated. Like, if I'm not really pushing the situation and keeping it casual, they will return.
If I complicate it by trying to make it something more, the tables turn as I can see I'm losing control in the situation by making them aware I may be into more... where they now have the choice of where it goes.

 

[Franco]

Estate,

This can go one of two ways... either it continues or at some point I'm deciding it's not going to become more and phase out the "hanging out" if I'm not into continuing this situation.
In most cases I'm not into it, because I'd rather go meet other girls and see what happens than continuing to see the same one in this way beyond a certain point.

I COULD try push it in a different direction but that's where it seems to become complicated. Like, if I'm not really pushing the situation and keeping it casual, they will return.

Hmm... well, I hope you do understand that, on average, it usually takes a girl around 3 months (although it can take up to 5 months sometimes or can happen as early as 1 month) of seeing you "casually" before she even brings up the idea of a relationship. Generally the idea is that you continue to see them casually until they finally bring it up themselves -- how long that takes depends more on them (and their experience level) rather than you. You just continue to do the same thing until she pushes for more.

If you're cutting it off too early, then it's possible that you may be shooting yourself in the foot. Again, this may not be the case, but if you see long term potential in a girl, and she still wants to see you, then you pretty much just let her keep coming over until she wants it to be something more. It's like you said, if you keep it casual, then they keep coming back.

Remember, the girl needs to be the one to bring relationship stuff up. Your job is just to keep things casual (usually for multiple months) until that happens.

- Franco