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QueenBee

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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This was a fairly straightforward process, made more efficient by a highly willing participant.

I was planning a trip to Saint Petersburg in August of last year, and a month or two ahead of time, I downloaded the Eastern European dating app Mamba (which I can recommend for anyone in the region or seeking to spend time here). QueenBee, as I will call her, was one of the first women I matched with. She was 35 and took reasonable care of herself, at least from the perspective of diet and exercise, giving her a slim, athletic appearance. At over 180cm tall, about the same as I am, she towered above me if she put on heels. Her figure was of the spindly variety, with not much in the way of hips. Her hair was chestnut-brown; her face was not beautiful, but it was tolerable. Overall, let's give her a 7 out of 10 on the conventional scale, mainly due to a sporty, thin, toned body without any modifications. Due to her habit of regularly deleting our Telegram chats, from both sides, I can't reproduce the texting, but there wasn't much to it: she decided she liked me pretty much upfront and started to pursue. The smoothest part of this interaction was the pull, to which I will devote more detail.

On the app, she had about 50 pictures, the vast majority of them showing her in brightly-colored, attention-grabbing clothing. I opened with a compliment about how she had tastefully matched the colors of several items of apparel and makeup (I don't remember the details; for the sake of argument, let's say it was eyeshadow, shorts, and patent heels all in a lime-green). She took well to this and after a while started sending me multiple other pictures. After very little time had elapsed, she stated explicitly that we seemed to get along well in at least one respect: that we had complementary interests, as I enjoyed observing details of women's attire and commenting favorably on them, and she enjoyed dressing up.

This type of exchange continued for some time as the date of my trip approached. (This is the same trip described in FR: Botticelli. That field report is far more problematic and higher-stakes than this one, and while I am appreciative of feedback on any forum post, any responses the community is able to provide there will be the most useful from my perspective.) We got to know each other reasonably well at least on Telegram, and she suggested a couple of video calls on the weekends, which I found relaxing and enjoyable. Our personalities were very different, and clearly she was not relationship material, but she was decently attractive physically and promised to be fun to be with. She had an easygoing character, both by her own account and in reality. What she liked about me was that I had a stable, serious, self-possessed manner: a nice complement to her carefree nature.

She favored the fast-fashion multiple Zara, which has closed its doors in Russia, being replaced by the native MAAG which has a bit of a different feel. I offered to bring her what I could get my hands on, and she sent a list and details of her sizes. I grabbed a sleeveless top, a denim skirt, and some jeans, along with a perfume from elsewhere. This is an easy win, since at Zara, as anyone will know who has been there with a girlfriend, you can get a whole basketful of reasonable-looking garments for under 100 euro; the quality is questionable, but it looks okay while it lasts and the younger girls swear by it.

When I had arrived, slept off the bus journey from Helsinki airport, and spent the first day seeing the sights, we arranged to meet outside the Kazan Cathedral in the early evening. At QueenBee's recommendation, I had booked a highly reputable restaurant with a lovely terrace overlooking the cathedral. Still a little sleepy after the (now unnecessarily complicated) journey, I realized to my horror as I approached the venue that I had forgotten the presents, and that it was too late to go back to my hotel for them now. After greeting her with a kiss on the cheek, and a little chat to break the ice as it was our first in-person meeting, I joked, sheepishly, that I promised I hadn't left the presents in my hotel room intentionally, as a device to get her back there on the pretext of collecting them, and that I had genuinely forgotten; we shared a laugh at that.

Dinner went smoothly, facilitated by an excellent waiter. QueenBee was very talkative, which suits me, as I prefer listening with the occasional enthusiastic contribution, rather than carrying the burden of an awkward conversation. Not being much of a fan of alcohol, I was slightly irritated that she ordered four (!) Long Island Iced Teas over the course of the meal, confirming my initial view that she was unsuitable as any kind of a serious partner, and bringing the check amount to almost twice what it would otherwise have been.

We had planned a boat trip after dinner, and as we walked toward the jetty on the Moika Embankment, I mentioned that I hoped the clothes from Zara were the right size, and that we could always have a "fashion show" in my hotel room to test the fit before the night was over, to which she readily agreed. QueenBee largely took care of the negotiations with the boatmen, as this was her home territory, and when we had agreed on a price with one of the several individuals offering tours, we boarded the catamaran.

We meandered through canals and under bridges, taking in the sights of nighttime Saint Petersburg, and as we emerged onto the River Neva proper, the liquor started to show its effect. QueenBee arranged for the boatman to change the music to something of her own preference, then stood up and started dancing around, waggling her flattish ass and waving her arms in the air. I sat chilling in my blazer and slacks enjoying the city view and the free entertainment! A few times later on in the night, when we came back off the river into the canals, I started worrying that QueenBee, being tall, might hurt herself as we passed under one of the many bridges, and a couple times, the boatman and I had to cooperate to get her back under control!

We passed Hare Island with its famous SS Peter & Paul Fortress, and the boatman took us all the way to the Cruiser Aurora, the famous battleship whose cannon had heralded the October Revolution. At night, it was illuminated in a tasteful greenish tone—the photos came out fantastic, and the view from the water is far superior to any tourist visit from the embankment. All the way QueenBee was dancing away. I finally told the boatman that it was getting cold and we needed to wrap up the voyage, which proved to be good timing, since as we reentered the canals QueenBee was already getting melancholy and wondering aloud whether any man would ever marry her.

When we finally tied up again at the Moika, I paid the boatman off and we walked at a brisk pace through the city, passing the Church of the Savior on Blood, my arm around QueenBee to keep her warm: it was already mid-August, and past midnight, and at this latitude a peacoat or similar would have probably been desirable, but as mentioned we were lightly outfitted in summer dining attire. I reminded QueenBee of the "fashion show" and we headed toward my hotel. En route, she showed some class: We stopped at a restaurant for her to use the restroom, and as I waited longer than usual (so long that a hostess even offered me a table!) I realized she must be cleaning up. This later proved true: My hotel room was an ordinary one with no extra rooms, etc., and the bathroom was enclosed in glass and thus offered little in the way of privacy, so it was wise that she had taken this precaution.

We reached Nevsky Prospekt, all white light and movement, full of the force of life, the pulse of the city. Pedestrians streamed in both directions along the broad avenue, with no regard to the late hour. We turned east a few blocks, then left the thoroughfare again for the relative calm of Fontanka Embankment. Reflections sparkled on the black waves; catamarans like the one we had rented steamed purposefully along the Fontanka River.

At my hotel, we took the spiral staircase up to my floor, discussing the old-fashioned steel cage elevator at its center and the tasteful art on the walls as we ascended. Everything was very low-key: QueenBee followed me to my room as if it were the most natural thing in the world. She exclaimed at the size of my suitcase for a four-night stay; I have never learned to travel light despite extensive experience! 😄 The gifts I had prepared were on the writing-desk. I handed her the clothing and she, without apparent shame or modesty, undressed as far as her underwear and tried the items on sequentially. For her particular figure, I found the jeans to be the most flattering—they emphasized her long legs beautifully—but all garments fitted perfectly.

When she took off the last item again, to put her usual clothes back on, I interrupted her while she was still in bra and panties and led her toward the bed. I didn't detect any unwillingness or resistance; she didn't spring into action herself, but allowed herself to be led. After some kisses in an erect posture, she sat; I commenced a little gentle foreplay, with caresses to her hips, abdomen, neck, pushing back her hair from her face, etc. As I lowered her into a supine position, she remarked: "Are we having sex? Okay, I guess."

I kissed her legs a little, then her behind and more intimate areas, first through underwear, which soon after came off. When she was good and ready, I initiated cunnilingus, which she received in a "doggie" position. She apparently enjoyed this, and wanted to proceed to full penetration, but I wasn't ready for it yet. Women do tend to rush men these days, don't they? Whatever happened to time for foreplay? Clueless men are rightfully criticized by women for hurtling into intimate activity without time to warm up a little, talking directly about specific sexual acts, treating the woman as a bundle of desires rather than a person; but I've noticed over the past few years that many women have started to do all these things to men as well now. Anyway, I wasn't in the mood. Also she wanted it in the "doggie" position, which I hate.

After we got dressed again, I accompanied her downstairs with her gifts, called her a taxi, and saw her off. We had lunch the next afternoon on the island with the fortress, and took a trip together to Budapest a month later. She's become a useful female friend, and indicates that she wouldn't object to a "friend with benefits" arrangement, but I get the sense that she wants more, calling me “sweetheart” (любимчик) and suchlike, and I definitely don't want to get too close to this mediocre-quality woman, so I hold off for the moment.
 
you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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Over at the very revealing "What's the hardest concept for you to wrap your head around in pickup?" thread on the Beginners board, @Jan and @James D are discussing the age-old saying of treating a whore like a queen and a queen like a whore.

I didn't wish to derail this extremely useful thread, where all sorts of concepts are being collected to aid Chase in research, so I decided to ask a follow-up question here:
Guys, the article @Chase is referring to is pure gold! Thank you so much for that.

More precisely it should be: "Treat EACH slut ALSO like a lady, and EACH lady ALSO like a slut."
Great way to put it.

And yes, that was a freaking great article.

Easily top 10.
What I often have difficulty with is how to do this without massive over-investment.

The girl who is the subject of this LR-, "QueenBee", demonstrated right upfront that she was not a good quality choice for a girlfriend. Yes, she was moderately attractive and kept in excellent shape; she dressed to suit her body and had a bright, eye-catching style. Her Telegram profile has over 40 profile pictures of her wearing outfits of varying degrees of ostentatiousness' the majority are very revealing. Fair enough so far. But she was arrogant with hotel and restaurant staff to the extent that I constantly felt the need to ber over-polite to compensate; as mentioned in the LR- above, she drank too much for my liking, ordering drinks at my expense even after I had told her that I barely drink alcohol myself (it's not the money, it's the principle); and she was blunt with me to the point of being insulting if her emotions got the better of her.

Therefore, although I treat all women "like a lady" as far as civility and chivalry demand, I saw no reason to upgrade her to a "girlfriend candidate" from just a girl who was fun to be with. After our first two meetings, described above, I wrote her some texts saying that I had had a nice time with her but that things would probably not work out, partly due to having been spooked by her drunken and melancholy musings on the boat about how no man would marry her. She responded to me not to be ridiculous, we were just having fun, opined on how it was much better to travel with someone of the the opposite sex than with friends, and constantly badgered me to take her on vacation somewhere.

The next month I relented and flew her out to Budapest for a few nights, which is only about a three-hour train journey for me. We did everything together and had fun times in the city, but despite sharing a suite we never got intimate. This confused me, so I made no effort to maintain contact with her after we parted.

She, however, texted me constantly, again proposing trips we could take together. By January of this year I got real with her and explained that though the Budapest visit had been fun, I didn't see the point, as she obviously didn't see me as sympathetic, else we would have been intimate. She left me voice messages explaining how for her to see a man as sympathetic, he had to see her as the only lady in the world for him. It caused me massive cognitive dissonance, as I cannot understand how a woman who had spent her twenties and half of her thirties avoiding anything serious could say something of that sort.

Eventually I put her on hold, and by June she told me she "didn't want to be a backup option" and asked me to let her know whether I was going to invite her anywhere. I told her that I wasn't comfortable around her, apologizing for my own difficult character to soften the blow. She flipped out, texted me a stream of insults, later deleting them all and asking me again about my life; this was perhaps the third time she had done this.

Why is it "all or nothing" with these women; i.e., why do they present themselves as easygoing but then somehow expect full commitment?
 

Stark

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Marty, Your report transported me to a classic James Bond movie in Eastern Europe. I thoroughly enjoyed reading through it.

I joked, sheepishly, that I promised I hadn't left the presents in my hotel room intentionally, as a device to get her back there on the pretext of collecting them, and that I had genuinely forgotten; we shared a laugh at that.

I feel it's your subconscious mind at play here. It took charge when your conscious mind dozed off because you wouldn't normally do this. Either way, this was exactly the right thing to do - I'm stealing this tactic from you ;) No girl in her right mind would say No to trying out new dresses picked out for her


Women do tend to rush men these days, don't they? Whatever happened to time for foreplay? Clueless men are rightfully criticized by women for hurtling into intimate activity without time to warm up a little, talking directly about specific sexual acts, treating the woman as a bundle of desires rather than a person; but I've noticed over the past few years that many women have started to do all these things to men as well now.

For women, foreplay is both mental and physical. The entire James Bonde-style date, boat ride, copious amount of alcohol, and pretense of getting her to your hotel room to try out outfits - had her in the optimum state of arousal already. Not to mention her stripping down for you at your hotel room.

She was dripping.

When women get to this state, they are consumed with this NEED to get fucked ASAP.

I understand your desire for the foreplay, I'm somewhat like you in that aspect.

It's annoying when she pushes for penetration when you want to take your time exploring her body. But that's the nature of the beast.

Why is it "all or nothing" with these women; i.e., why do they present themselves as easygoing but then somehow expect full commitment?

Classic female incongruence between what women say they want and what they actually do. But this is to be expected from a woman over 30, who's life is societally defined in terms of her ability to rope in a provider.

Your hesitation in sealing the deal fast had slotted your role in her mind as 'provider', hence her hesitation to have sex further on.

The girl who is the subject of this LR-, "QueenBee", demonstrated right upfront that she was not a good quality choice for a girlfriend. But she was arrogant with hotel and restaurant staff, she drank too much for my liking, ordering drinks at my expense even after I had told her that I barely drink alcohol myself (it's not the money, it's the principle); and she was blunt with me to the point of being insulting if her emotions got the better of her.

Yeah, not a great candidate to have any sort of consistent fun with. So nothing went wrong anyway in the big picture.
 

Jan

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@Marty

First of all, the quote is 'Treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore."

In your own words, it's 'Treat a whore like a queen, and a queen like a whore."

You see, even this benign miswording tells you where your problem lies. You are putting woman on pedestal. You are idealizing them above they are in reality.

Regardless of the specic words used, what this quote is meant to teach us it to DISTINGUISH REALITY FROM FANTASY.

All of us, have a certartain IMAGE of women. Some men see all or most of women as dirty sluts, other men see women as pure being, or distinguished ladies, princesses or queens. ALL THESE ARE WRONG. Initially, I wanted to write that these men are partially right and partially wrong, but that would miss the EXACT POINT behind this adage. Read on to see what I mean.

These men are wrong because they see ONE ASPECT OF A WOMAN, and they generalize this one aspect to her WHOLE BEING.

So basically, these men see woman SINGLE DIMENSIONALLY. When a man sees only POSITIVE sides, and ignores the NEGATIVE, he is engaging in the fantasy. He is accentuating positives and discarding negatives. Therefore, it's UNREALISTIC. Why? Because REALITY has BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE sides. Pain/pleasure, to win/to lose, beautifuls/ugly, etc.

On the most fundamental level, this adage is telling us to ACT ACCORDING TO WHAT IS, and not what your FANTASY IS.

This adage is telling us (and Chase explained it in more modern vocabulary) to ACCEPT THE REALITY that women are BOTH and AT THE SAME TIME, social and sexual beings.

In your particular case, it's very obvious how you see women. You see a woman as a queen in your head, you go out and you treat a real woman as she was a queen (even though she is not). There is no queen in the real world. The queen is only in your head. I'm pretty sure that even if you met an actual queen or princess from some Europearn aristocratic family, she would still disappoint you, because the real queens are still human being. And most likely they liked to be fucked doggy style.

She apparently enjoyed this, and wanted to proceed to full penetration, but I wasn't ready for it yet. Women do tend to rush men these days, don't they? Whatever happened to time for foreplay?

Once again: "Treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore." Look what you did here. You gave her a long, romantic date, gifts, and an actual foreplay (even if it wasn't long enough for you). Marty, women treat dates as a foreplay. You gave her a real long foreplay. And this is why she showed no resistance and willing to have sex. She was totally ready, BUT YOU DENIED HER SEXUALITY.

"Whatever happened to time for foreplay?" - Nothing happened, it NEVER WAS AS YOU THINK IT WAS. Usually men cut the foreplay short, which is a problem for the woman. You extend the foreplay, and it also a problem for women. Can you see how you are making a different version of the same mistake as the other man? It really doesn't matter for her if the foreplay was too short or too long, if the result is that she wasn't fucked, that's all what matters to her. Both ways it's a disappoinment.

PRACTICAL TIP: Appreciate more what you got from the experience. Obviously, you enjoyed the date, city sightseeing together, her dressing up for you, the undressing, oral sex, etc. Appreciate what you got. And second step: ACCEPT HER POINT OF VIEW. Don't try to make it perfect just for yourself. Accept that woman may have a need for shorter foreplay than you. It's her sexuality. Treat your queen ALSO ALSO ALSO like a slut. Satisfy her sexual needs.

Side way note: she told you that she wants to be fucked doggy style and you treated her suggestion as some kind of in-stone-commandment. It was not. She told you what her preferable position was in the moment. It seems like the only option for you was: either doggy style sex or nothing. NO! You could have very easily just grab her body and move to the position you wanted to go for (without talking) and see if she is ok with this. Very likely it would have been. BUT DON'T NEGOTIATE! If you start talking and denying her what she wants verbally, she will be more convinced that you are denying her something!

Man, you need to give up on your fantasies. You need to pay much more attention to the down-to-earth aspects of dating. Give up the fantasy and start observing. Seeing and embracing the reality as it really is, is part of growing up. Fantasy is boys world. Reality is man's world.

As to your question about overinvesting. It's very simply, you just need to INVEST LESS. Next date, invite her for coffee and a cake instead of a dinner and drinks. Set an evening budget and if you see that she is pressing you or ordering above the budget, be a man and tell her that you are enjoying the evening together, that you both already enjoyed this and that when it comes to physical goods, and it's time now to stop spending and start enjoying our own company instead of external things. If you think this is hard, you absolutely have to do it.
 

Jan

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Why is it "all or nothing" with these women; i.e., why do they present themselves as easygoing but then somehow expect full commitment?
Because how they present themselves is just one part of the equation. The other part is how you PRESENT YOURSELF. If a woman likes you she will try to take a role which she thinks (based on your words and more importantly actions) you would like her to take.

And you invested so much into her, that the only reasonable conclusion is that you want a long term commitment, where you will take a role of a provider, chaser and pleaser.

You want her to be easygoing with you?

"Hey babe, you seem like a cool, easygoing gal. You wanna grab coffee some time and have a light, fun convo?". And act accordingly.
 

Marty

Cro-Magnon Man
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First of all, the quote is 'Treat a whore like a lady, and a lady like a whore."

In your own words, it's 'Treat a whore like a queen, and a queen like a whore."

You see, even this benign miswording tells you where your problem lies. You are putting woman on pedestal. You are idealizing them above they are in reality.
:LOL::LOL: good catch, @Jan! You are quite right, I am pedestalizing them. I don't know when it started (probably in the distant past) and I don't know how to stop 😬

For women, foreplay is both mental and physical. The entire James Bonde-style date, boat ride, copious amount of alcohol, and pretense of getting her to your hotel room to try out outfits - had her in the optimum state of arousal already. Not to mention her stripping down for you at your hotel room.
Look what you did here. You gave her a long, romantic date, gifts, and an actual foreplay (even if it wasn't long enough for you). Marty, women treat dates as a foreplay. You gave her a real long foreplay.
Wow, you both caught this independently. And I totally missed it! Even though I have often ruminated about it since last year. I didn't even know this was the case, actually. I feel as if I have been driving without a license all these years.

I'm so glad I resurrected this thread after I saw the referenced post on the Beginners board, and I'm grateful to you @Jan and @Stark for alerting me to this, else I'd never have known.

So in a way, this was an example of something I did right for a change, without realizing it 🤣

Marty, Your report transported me to a classic James Bond movie in Eastern Europe. I thoroughly enjoyed reading through it.
Thanks, I really appreciate it, man. You should see the pictures from the boat! 😂😂

I feel it's your subconscious mind at play here. It took charge when your conscious mind dozed off because you wouldn't normally do this. Either way, this was exactly the right thing to do - I'm stealing this tactic from you ;) No girl in her right mind would say No to trying out new dresses picked out for her
Oops 😅 you're welcome 😁

Your hesitation in sealing the deal fast had slotted your role in her mind as 'provider', hence her hesitation to have sex further on.
Oh shoot, okay, so that's what it was. Another eye-opener.

Yeah, not a great candidate to have any sort of consistent fun with. So nothing went wrong anyway in the big picture.
No indeed. But a lot of learning points, more than I had imagined.

This adage is telling us (and Chase explained it in more modern vocabulary) to ACCEPT THE REALITY that women are BOTH and AT THE SAME TIME, social and sexual beings.
Got it, @Jan . Thank you.

In your particular case, it's very obvious how you see women. You see a woman as a queen in your head,
Yes I do. I'm amazed it's so transparent. (And glad that I'm able to write up events accurately, so that experienced men like you can perceive it and help me as you are doing.) If you can see it through my written prose, I can't imagine how obvious it must be to the women I spend time with.

you go out and you treat a real woman as she was a queen (even though she is not).
Guilty as charged, yes this is exactly what I have done :oops::oops:

I'm pretty sure that even if you met an actual queen or princess from some Europearn aristocratic family, she would still disappoint you, because the real queens are still human being. And most likely they liked to be fucked doggy style.
This had me laughing a lot :ROFLMAO:

Appreciate more what you got from the experience. Obviously, you enjoyed the date, city sightseeing together, her dressing up for you, the undressing, oral sex, etc. Appreciate what you got.
Yes. That is a good point. I've often since wondered how I could have had such an unforgettable experience with such a forgettable woman. Actually, it isn't the first time that has happened.

And second step: ACCEPT HER POINT OF VIEW. Don't try to make it perfect just for yourself. Accept that woman may have a need for shorter foreplay than you. It's her sexuality. Treat your queen ALSO ALSO ALSO like a slut. Satisfy her sexual needs.
This one I will have to work on. I can see it theoretically but am having trouble feeling it.

She told you what her preferable position was in the moment. It seems like the only option for you was: either doggy style sex or nothing. NO! You could have very easily just grab her body and move to the position you wanted to go for (without talking) and see if she is ok with this. Very likely it would have been.
Good point! Again, I didn't think of it at the time. With a girlfriend I'd probably have done this, but with a new woman, I kind of lost my bearings.

If you start talking and denying her what she wants verbally, she will be more convinced that you are denying her something!
Oh yes, I've heard this before, not to verbalize negatives as it causes them to crystallize. Probably in business. A good reminder that it applies to other walks of life also.

Man, you need to give up on your fantasies. You need to pay much more attention to the down-to-earth aspects of dating. Give up the fantasy and start observing. Seeing and embracing the reality as it really is, is part of growing up. Fantasy is boys world. Reality is man's world.
This sounds as if it is good advice, but unfortunately, I don't know what exactly you are referring to.

Because how they present themselves is just one part of the equation. The other part is how you PRESENT YOURSELF. If a woman likes you she will try to take a role which she thinks (based on your words and more importantly actions) you would like her to take.

And you invested so much into her, that the only reasonable conclusion is that you want a long term commitment, where you will take a role of a provider, chaser and pleaser.
Ah, that is an interesting point, @Jan . Let me see if I can figure out what I was doing to give that impression, so that I can correct it in future. I remember Chase advising me to avoid the provider role, even if I think that the woman is exceptional and may be worthy of that sort of commitment.
 
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