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Question from a curious white guy for guys in here who aren't white.

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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I have mostly heard this with my asian and indian friends, to a smaller extent my black friends, and rarely my latino or mixed race friends (though I have seen this with them too). When I have been an AFC or struggled with women they all look at me and say that I am tall, white, and good looking so how can I be having problems with women. Then I have seen this conversation take place online where guys from non-White backgrounds feel that their race is actually holding them back from doing well with women, I have even seen it on this forum to a small extent.

So my question to you guys is this, what have you specifically experienced that made you believe that you being an ethnic minority is a disadvantage when it comes to women?

I am trying to get an idea of this to see if I have experienced some of those same things being a white guy and if our experiences are really as different as we make it seem like.
 

trashKENNUT

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I remove this post.

(No racism. It's important to be non-judgemental and be open. People will tell you the honest truth about your race so we can improve ourselves.)

Zac
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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ZacAdam...

bro that is not a good way to start my thread. lets not get into stereotypes about black people or any race, lets keep it just personal and why you have felt that your background has stopped you from doing well.
 

trashKENNUT

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Post removed.

Zac
 

trashKENNUT

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Proactivity,

Let me just remove my post. This is your post. :)

Zac
 
A

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It depends on several factors, down to cultural, socioeconomic, biological, etc…

Living in an Anglo/ European dominant country (U.S., UK, Germany, etc.), what do you see in print, pop media?

That's right. White, blonde, blue eyed males and females. Who dominates cinema and television roles? White men.

The Anglo/Euro culture is saturated in white supremacist propaganda. Mind you, I'm not necessarily talking bout Ku Klux Klan, skinhead, Nazism, and the like… but white culture will do what any other dominant culture will do: assume they are the best. There is always an ethnocentric bias in whatever country you live. Even if you live in a diverse, multicultural neighborhood or town, overall, especially in the U.S., Caucasians make up the largest population. There is no reason for marketers, media outlets, advertisers and the like to focus 90% or more of their energies and focus on anything other than the target demographic, predominantly white people.

If you go to Asia, (whether south asia, southeast asia, northern asia) you'll see not one Anglo face on the billboards. Of course they're going to represent the faces and people that the masses are going to relate to. They're going to use faces and people that the largest population is going to want to see.

The problem is, if you are a minority (Black, Latino/Chicano, South East Asian, South Asian, etc.) you're already at a disadvantage. That's not to say that if you are a minority, that you cannot date women outside your group. However, because of cultural stigma and other factors, it can cause women who have been inundated with media images to view white men as the ideal man; what else can these women do, when they've been bombarded with stereotypical images of white men as heroes, the main protagonists of stories, high sex appeal, etc… On a rational level, they will view white men as more ideal, and even superior.

On a biological level though, we see that this is not the case. People might be apt to brainwashing on a cognitive level, but biologically, women are still attracted to strong, masculine, dominant men. Whether that man be a Black American with slave ancestry, or an African native, or an Mexican with indigenous blood, or a South Korean, or Sri Lankan,… it does not matter. If that man is truly attractive in a holistic sense, then that man has just as much sexual opportunity as the white man.

You will see, however, that most girls (white girls, but also Asian and Latino) in the U.S., will idealize and fawn over white male actors/ models/ singers because… that is what they've been trained to do from watching TV and movies, books and stories written from an Anglo-European bias. They will have little or no problems dating white men. Because socially, it is accepted. White men are considered the "standard", while everyone else is a notch or two below…

So yes, absolutely, if you're not a white male living in the U.S. or most parts of Europe, you are at a disadvantage. But it doesn't mean you have no shot… There are so many different reasons and variables at play, but I just wanted to touch on a little bit here. A lot of this is sociological/ historically based…

One interesting story though, just food for thought: In the early 1900s, during a period of large waves of immigration, particularly Asian immigrants, the influx of Asian people spurred government legislation that banned miscegenation. That is, there was government law, part of the Constitution… that prohibited white women from marrying outside of their race. This was largely in response to not only black Americans, but primarily as a result of "Yellow Peril", and to put it in a nutshell, white men were afraid that the "yellow" people were going to steal their white women away… a similar phenomena that arose during the 1800s onwards, where black Americans were stereotyped as brutes who were going to steal and rape America's white virgins…

In short, Hell Yes… white men have it easier. in America. Or Europe. To say otherwise is to be color blind and ignorant of reality. But it doesn't give men of color any excuses not to pursue women outside of their group. Come to Asia, come to Central, South America, though… you might be deemed exotic, if you're white… but that exoticism is a small, small, boost compared to the ethnocentric, social biases you'll face if you step outside your home country.

I would never use race as an excuse. Because even if a girl on the outside, overtly states that she only goes for "X" group of men when dating… it doesn't matter. Because that might be true… but that's more a result of not being exposed to sexy, attractive men from that group… it only takes 1 casanova from an outside group to break in and tear down her preconceptions of dating outside her group.
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake
A

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I also wanted to add, that, if you've taken any African American studies classes, or studied black literature, you'll be familiar with W.E.B. DuBois theories. And one theory that is central to all of this is "double consciousness." This is primarily a black American, or Negro, phenomena.

If you are not white American in the U.S., you are considered the "other". Being normal = being white. if you're not white, you're considered "different." You are not allowed to view the world from the perspective of a regular person. Any person of color is made aware that he is different when living in an Anglo/Euro dominant society. He is essentially two different selves, having to view himself from the position of another, of the other, an outsider. He is not afforded a self-consciousness; it is always tainted by the hierarchical schemes of white supremacy.

That is why white people, no matter how hard they try, will never understand the experience of a black man, of a Latino man, of an Asian man living in America. They do not view themselves as outsiders; their consciousness is deemed the norm, and everyone else is the "odd one out". White people do not understand how it feels to be discriminated against, to be enslaved, to be segregated, to have laws made against them.

As it applies to dating, white men in America might have their own weaknesses and blindspots to work on, but for minorities, not only do they have those same types of weaknesses, but in addition, they're socially viewed as inferior, and have to make up for it or compensate. Not because they are inherently inferior; this would be racism. But because society puts a premium on white skin and views everything from a color line.

So no, white men have no idea what it's like for Blacks, for Mexicans, for Koreans, for Chinese, for Indians, for… anyone that is not white. Because you've never been in that position. You might have been picked on, called a nerd, called a weirdo, creep… but minorities have the same problems… and the racial biases against them as well. There are more layers of conditioning and racism that they have to overcome.

So all in all, what I'm saying is, white men have no idea what an out group member experiences… they benefit from white privilege. However, any man has a shot in the dating game. But you have to play with the hand you're dealt.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

For me, it has been a mixture of what I have seen and a lack of a good role model in my life from my own background.

Throughout my life I have seen average (sometimes old) white guys with attractive women of all backgrounds whether she was asian, black, brown, arabian, or latin. I am a south asian male and I just have an attraction towards women that are white, American, and attractive. Unfortunately in all my years of traveling (haven't been to southern California but Franco says I won't be disappointed, he has also helped me a lot in my journey of self-improvement) and going out, I have never met a man of my own background with a woman who fit that category. I mean ever in my life even though I have known a few guys of my background who were good looking.

It has given me the impression that a white guy who has looks, money, and status can date hot girls of any background if he so pleases but a guy like me if he was to have the looks, money, and status would never be able to get a Brooklyn Decker or Hayden Panetierre if he wanted. Reason being that I have met guys from my background who had looks and the money but were not able to get the blonde bombshell while some dude who drives a pickup and is middle class at best got her.

It does skew my perception about life in a lot of ways and then there are online dating studies. All of which have actively crushed my self-esteem because they reaffirm what I assumed.

Then I also have some paranoid thoughts like what if I was to get a girl like Brooklyn Decker, how much of a hated figure will I be? Will my life be in danger because of it? Reason being that I have been actively told not to like white women from my friends and growing up I faced some threats for hitting on this girl that was attractive and white. Ya I had a somewhat rough upbringing.

I suffer from the victim's mentality and this is the main thing that has caused it. The feeling that no matter how amazing I become I will never be able to land the all american blonde bombshell where as if I was a white guy I could get her and some hot girl from a minority background. It's like I feel that as a man of my background, there is a glass ceiling on how amazing I can become with women.

I hope traveling and meeting amazing people changes that but I doubt it will. It has been the main limiting belief that has stopped me from reaching my full potential and I just worry that I will always have it and never be happy in life because of it.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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Funny thing about my thought pattern is that there are times I feel that I can be a major exception. Even though I have yet to meet a man of my background who has done well with the kind of women I wanted, I feel as if I can be that exception. It is a hard feeling and thought pattern to describe. Like I feel that my goal is achievable but then I have never really met guys of my background who have done well even though they wanted to or any evidence out there outside of the chat with Franco that tells me I can be that guy.

It is like I am stuck in my own head about this thing.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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So far what I am hearing is more abstract and theory rather than experiences. As a white guy I can easily say some girls find me plain and boring, being that I am from Kansas I get stereotyped as a redneck even when I am not.

I want to hear actual experiences in the sense of you being out there in the field and actively pursuing women. All I am hearing is sociology on one end and on the other end a guy who probably hasn't tried his luck with the kind of women he likes blaming it on his background.
 

robbies

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When a patient is ill, the doctor often focuses on curing the patient rather than investigating the cause of the illness. The life of the patient is paramount.

I make the metaphor because I do see boat loads of posts all over the Net by Asian men, wallowing in self-pity. I have found only a few blogs set up by Asian men chronicling their successes.

And that's what we should focus on, our successes. There are already way too many posts out there giving us the proverbial hand job of getting off from feeling sad and down. We should spend that energy focusing on our own self-improvement. We should focus on transcending our race to be better men in general. Above all, we have to learn to shut out the bullshit of what other people think, instead worrying about what we think of ourselves. I admit too that I still have a lot of limiting beliefs to overcome but the most freeing moment for me was when I finally learned to forgive not only others for their ignorance and trespasses but myself.

Only when you can let go of the bullshit that's been holding you back can you then be free of having a victim mentality. We spend our energies holding onto the past. Whenever we encounter a scenario, we automatically default back to our own negative thought processes on why what we are about to try will end in failure.

Instead, we have to learn to give ourselves permission to try and fail. Try and fail. Try and fail. Life is replete with trials and tribulations. We just have to be smart enough to forgive ourselves and learn from them.

When you learn to forgive yourself, you will find yourself able to harness that energy into finally building the future you desire.
 

Smith

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Proactivity wrote:
I have mostly heard this with my asian and indian friends, to a smaller extent my black friends, and rarely my latino or mixed race friends (though I have seen this with them too). When I have been an AFC or struggled with women they all look at me and say that I am tall, white, and good looking so how can I be having problems with women. Then I have seen this conversation take place online where guys from non-White backgrounds feel that their race is actually holding them back from doing well with women, I have even seen it on this forum to a small extent.

So my question to you guys is this, what have you specifically experienced that made you believe that you being an ethnic minority is a disadvantage when it comes to women?

I am trying to get an idea of this to see if I have experienced some of those same things being a white guy and if our experiences are really as different as we make it seem like.

this is a limiting mindset I'm targeting right now. I hate to admit this but I've had more success with asian girls than white girls, but I think that's a subconcious mindset thing, which translates to action, thus my lack of success with white girls. I used to blame this on asian stereotypes and blah blah blah, but that only made it worst. (victim mentality).

I've also researched on the internet any asian guy-white girl couples, and there are some, but the girls aren't the ones (well not my type) I would have a relationship with.

If the media portray your ethnicity with a certain stereotype, then you have to work on yourself to get as far away from those stereotype as possible.

Right now, I force myself to only meet white girls and I can tell you that most of them are a lot more open and warm to me than asian girls. But sometimes I'm still scared to get their numbers because of my fear of rejection, which I'm still working on.

My point is, you can get 'rejected' by girls of any ethnicity if you're not working on yourself. The people who complained they can't get specific type of girls are the ones who hold themselves back, and I see this in a lot of my non-white friends. They aren't willing to improve themselves, but would rather blame it on the girls or the society for not accepting who they are.

So far I'm having more fun meeting white girls I have to say.

my mindset right now is : "I'm gonna fucking conquer this shit"

I'd be curious to know your experience with non-white girls.

- smith
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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Smith,

Not trying to brag but most girls from non-White backgrounds (particularly black and mexican with lots of native blood in them) practically throw themselves at me. I have been in situations where I would reject a girl who is black and she would still continue to talk to me but my asian and latino friends have been in similar situations with black girls. No offense to anyone in here who is black but I notice that black girls seem to be more than open to going interracial with any race of men out there. As for mexican girls and latinas with a lot of native american in them, they're the first ones to approach me but if I reject them then they usually just leave me alone.

I am not interested in either one TBH, my preference is exclusively for white girls but I do make exceptions for latinas with a lot of white in them (penelope cruz) and arabian/persian girls who to me are just white women with exotic features. Have done alright with latinas but as for persian girls I haven't had much luck there. I do have a friend from france that dated one and an indian friend of mines is going out with this gorgeous persian girl with rich parents but he looks kinda persian himself.

As for me, I get told I look like Tom Welling (Smallville) quite a lot. Outside of persian and middle eastern girls I haven't had much issues. For a while, I did have problems with the popular blonde bombshell types that every guy wants but I am dating one right now, met her in dance class, so its pretty good for me. When I have struggled, it is because I was not looking out for my appearance, had bad fundamentals, and was in a poor environment for me to do well.
 

Smith

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Cool =) Good on you. It's hard to meet a latino, mexican or black girls in my country, so damn, wish I knew what they're like. But yes, I've only seen persian/arabian girls hanging out with guys of the same ethnicity or who looks similar.

I think statistically, there should be one hot girl of any ethnicity who finds you attractive lol it's a numbers game.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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my experience with race

I am a south asian male myself (punjabi to be specific), above average looks (like to say I am good looking though :p) and I can easily talk to girls. Contrary to what might be said about my girlfriend, I have not struggled with the opposite sex. Chase would call me a "natural" as opposed to being a PUA. First girl I was ever with was an attractive indian girl, then some latinas, and then I hooked up with this cute blonde russian girl when I was finishing high school. Now I am dating a girl that you guys refer to as a "blonde bombshell", in a sorority, attractive, and a joy to be around.

The problem I have found with race isn't really attracting women but the problems I face from society when I date a girl that happens to be white and attractive.

When I was with the blonde russian girl (who was hot!) we were high school students in San Francisco, now one would think this is an open minded city but I kid you not we faced some real issues.

1. Asian people (especially the females!) were the worst! There were asian girls that saw us out in public and would give us a tough time. One asian girl (very whitewashed to where she dyed her hair blonde) looked at us when we were on a date and said to her "you can have any white guy, why are you with him?". Older Asian people would constantly harass us and keep interrogating us with questions, they would not leave us alone. Asian women in San Francisco gave us a pretty hard time for being together, it was eye opening to see all this.

2. White guys (obviously, no racist though) no matter how liberal they claimed to be would talk about our relationship openly and in a very condescending kind of way. Comments such as "look everyone he already made it, he got himself one of our own princesses", that kind of annoying irritating nonsense.

3. Guys from other races (black guys and mexicans) would hit on her right in front of me and when she would show no interest they would openly say the most racist shit right to our faces. One black guy even shouted out in public when we were at a movie theater something like "oh damn, she'll get with this (racist derogatory term towards indians, arabs, or any kind of foreigners) looking mothafucka over here but won't give no black man a shot, I see how it is!".

But here is the thing about the Bay Area, white guys there can date any race they want and no one will bother them. Plenty pursue their asian girl fetish and no one gives them a tough time but the second some asian guy decides he wants to date a sienna miller?! All hell literally breaks lose.

I am not gonna lie, it that entire experience with her made me promise to myself that I will NEVER in my life go back to the Bay Area. Had to part ways with the blonde Russian beauty because we went off to different schools, ironically she is now with a latino who looks very indian.

When I was dating my now girlfriend and we went back to visit our parents in the bay area I ran into confrontations from my former classmates and even the occasional public issues.

My advice to all men of my background and even asian guys, if it is white girls you are looking for please stay out of the Bay Area.

It was that experience which made me open my eyes and realize that as a guy who isn't white, I will run into a lot of problems in some places for being with a girl who is white. Fortunately in other places in california such as southern cal, no one has given us a tough time at all and when we visited NYC no one cared. Guys of a minority background do have to sometimes wonder if it is their fundamentals or their location limiting them. I just showed you what can happen when you get girls in an area where there is racism against men of your background.
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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Come to think of it, I definitely believe that men of my background (south asians) are worse off in areas where there are a lot of us there. In places like Toronto, London, and San Francisco/Bay Area you don't commonly see south asian men with white women. People there are so accustomed to seeing south asians only with their own background to the point where if you do see them with a woman who is white and happens to look good, there will be problems. People are just used to seeing men who are south asian in their own communities and don't really expect them to go interracial, especially not with a white girl.

So something for any south asian guys on here to keep in mind, if you are looking for places where you can succeed, get the kind of girls you want, and really expand your dating options you should avoid areas that have a lot of south asians in them. The good thing about all this is that the three cities I listed (Bay Area and Toronto for sure) have terrible dating cultures and aren't really known for their women.
 
A

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I find sociological, scientific, historical information to be very important and vital in developing understanding of the dating world.

On a personal level, I've found some rather interesting patterns.

Despite being Korean American, I have a lot of difficulty with other Korean American women, and Korean women in general. I just don't fit that archetype of Korean man that most Korean women tend to like (Korean women, those who have lived in Korea/ influenced by Korean culture heavily, are notoriously some of the pickiest and least open minded women when it comes to dating outside the race. Very rarely do you see traditional, native Korean women date outside their group -- not to say that Korean women as a whole don't. It's just less common than other groups, at least from what I've observed and gathered from personal and secondhand experiences). I've had a lot of success with Latino/ Chicana women, and moderate success with white women.

Being white in America makes you immune to dating pressure; everyone accepts white man, [insert race] woman couples without hesitating. But for a Korean? or any other group for that matter? You get a lot of hate from other men, my friend.

I've been in several confrontations with Latino gangsters and hoodlums because I was flirting with "their" woman. In reality, it wasn't that I was messing with someone's girl, but rather my seduction caught the attention of her orbiters and they responded in kind. This happens with almost every type of guy, normally in group settings/ social circle, where I'm coming in as an outsider. Mind you, none of these women had boyfriends in these situations. Simply orbiters/admirers who were too chicken to approach and saw that some "chink" (as they referred to me) attempted to initiate conversation with her.

I've had several instances where white women have aggressively shown interest and pursued, but usually those women have a kind of obsession with Asian culture and K-Pop, J-Pop, etc… which is annoying… because they're often weird, eclectic individuals that are more enamored by the false image of the anime-watching, breakdancing, pretty boy characters that they see in Korean pop culture. This is a similar phenomena we see when other groups of men idolize white women and put them on a pedestal, that "blonde bombshell" type, as a few of you have mentioned in this thread.

I see my difference as an advantage; because they hold certain preconceived notions about my identity based on phenotype, they're totally shocked when I'm not your typical math whiz, I'm not good with computers, and I'm outspoken and assertive… when you contrast so sharply and uniquely from the stereotypes they've been brainwashed with for years and years, you become an enigma to them. And often that piques their interest and they begin to chase...
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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Interesting, I am also Korean American! I do have a thing for the "blonde bombshells" and lots of other kinds of white women and don't consider myself to be weird at all. Even I know that mexican gangsters will give a white guy issues for going after mexican girls that happen to look good.

That said, I have done well when I have changed location. When I lived in the south, the only time you saw white women date interracial is if they were of a very lower class background (trailers parks and rednecks) and the guy was black. You didn't see the upper middle class girls ever go interracial and for other races. In Seattle, I see cute white women with all races (mainly asians though) quite a few times. Location makes a big difference really.

I can relate to some of the users here facing problems in places such as San Francisco. Would like to add Toronto to the list as well. Those two places actively profile asian guys (of all types) as being undesired. The white women there are supposed to stay away from you and told to do so. When you show an interest in white women, just watch how quickly the population there tells you things like:

"Why not find yourself a nice asian girl back home"
"Oh come on, be open minded here"
"White women are (such and such), you should go for other races"

People in the bay area and Toronto are indirectly racist. I have stayed in both places and would stay far far away from them unless I was offered a really well paying job.
 

Drck

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This is only my observation, it is rather my generalization when lots of exceptions exists, so I only hope than no one gets insulted:

I’ve seen quite a lot of black males going out with white females. Usually the black guy was bigger and taller, I’m not saying that he was fat but he wasn’t skinny either, far from it. In my opinion, there is a lot of natural charm in these guys, I view them as naturals – they are relaxed, have fun, optimists, they are naturally loud, they are confident with good body language and so on. If I can compare it to white males, IMO white males are too uptight, too anxious, too strict. White males, on the other hand, are rather providers – they have more education, they are more focused on finances, they obey law and live life in ‘order’. IMO, black males are much more sexual than white males. Again, many exceptions exist, this is only a generalization.

I haven’t seen many black women going out with white males. Personally I like “some” black women. Black women are more natural than white females. I met several black women, and they are relatively easy to seduce, they are simply more sexual than white females, they are more fun, more relaxed, more confident.

Latinas. Also very natural, hot. I knew some Puerto Rican girls, they are hot, very friendly, open minded, natural, they dress nice (short skirts, high heels,...) Despite that, many of them are faithful to their BF/hubbies. I don’t know how to describe it, they are either faithful or slutty, and even if you have lots of experience you can easily break all of your teeth on those faithful ones. You see that she is very attracted, that she is desiring sex, perhaps is even horny - yet she will pull away anyway if she already has a BF/hubby. To me, PR women are like switch – I am either attracted a lot or not at all, there is no middle ground.

Puerto Rican guys are rather “light”, very friendly, overall nice… I haven’t seen much dominance there. In my opinion, white guy from USA can relatively easy over-dominate Puerto Rico males. Which is also quite attractive to PR females. The past is most likely important factor, white males came and “took over”, and this probably crated lots of low self-esteem in many Caribbean nations which remains till today.

Asians. To me they are just different people, I don't know any closely. I’ve seen very hot Asian girls, but overall I am not much attracted. Males remind me of that “nerdy” appearance, they can study very hard and become quite successful in many different areas. There is not much of a “natural”, most is rather hard work and dedication to particular area. Just my impression…

European women. They are many times nicer/prettier than American women, they are better behaved and most likely smarter too. They are skinnier. They have less confidence than American girls, they are less feminists. There is still some remnants of the past “tradition” when the women are more family oriented while the man is working/making money, but I am assuming that this will soon become past as many nations are (unfortunately) following the American trend. Honestly, I'm not impressed with American women at all, IMO Latinas and European girls are much better quality, they still respect men and they are nor brainwashed by feminism, yet... Special note about Russian women – they are not so hot, but I have never seen such confidence in any other women, they are many times more confident than males from other nations.

European men. I’m from Eastern Europe, IMO the guys I know from Europe are generally smarter than Americans. On the other hand, American guys are quite more dominant and confident. After living in USA between Americans, and returning to Europe, I quite benefited from the American confidence, I was able to generate huge attraction fairly easily.

And as far as racism? This could potentially piss a lot of people off. Sure there are racists, but in my opinion, those people who feel inferior to other colors or nation only thrive on it for no particular reason (meaning today, year 2014). They were thought victim mentality and they can’t get over it. My nation was overtaken by Germans and then by Russians no so long ago, and I don’t see anyone today who suffers because of that, we don’t ask for reparations, we don’t play victims, and we don’t expect any benefits from that. So why other nations can’t do the same, why can’t they get over themselves? Why do the rest of us have to constantly hear about racism, affirmative actions, and slavery? Slavery ended some 150 years ago. There were issues with slavery and racism in USA up to some 1960’s or so. But today, 50+ years later? Gimma a break, get over yourself already, except extremists nobody really cares about your color or history... Just an opinion, no need to get pissed…
 

Drck

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JJ: White people do not understand how it feels to be discriminated against, to be enslaved, to be segregated, to have laws made against them.

I see really good point JJ, but in my opinion it is not entirely accurate. What about people or nations who were attacked and destroyed by Germans in 1939? How about those nations/people who suffered under Russian iron curtain for decades? How about millions of people who were prosecuted because of their religion?

What is today’s white guy in his 20-30-40’s supposed to think when he is being accused of racism, while he (most of us) don’t really care about skin color?

How about for example “Knockout Game” – how fair is it when young black guy knocks elderly white man and no one hears about it, but if white guy knocks down black person it is all of the sudden news about racism?

How are all these white people in USA racists – if they elected black person as a leader of the whole nation? It just doesn’t make sense…
 
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