Question to Denton or anyone: Just the hard facts about the Julien controversy?

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Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I've just discovered that Karisma King aka. Denton Dating on YouTube = Denton Fisher of Girls Chase.

[It's funny how he uses the byline Denton Fraser - Writer for Girls Chase in his video. I thought it would be more straightforward to promote yourself on YouTube as a YouTuber as videos bring in more engagement anyway. Whatever. So Denton had this series: Top Ten Pickup Artists In The World. I quickly went through them and I was shocked that the overwhelming majority of guys Denton mentions are RSD guys. It's not that he didn't mention any Girls Chase guy, but the series just made me even more skeptical RSD isn't a cult. Come on! I can't believe there aren't good seducers in significant numbers outside the whole RSD mindset! Chase has his strong opinions on RSD too. Or does he? I had the impression, but now I'm not sure. Either way I came to Girls Chase in the first place because it isn't RSD. And it isn't Roosh either, for that matter. What got me skeptical about RSD back then before deleting their forum that it didn't have a sex section. Perhaps they would be worried guys realizing pumping and dumping way too many girls won't make them happy in the long run like having more meaningful, more sexy relationships with a little fewer girls would. So I don't know, RSD built their whole business model pretending pumping and dumping a large amounts of girls will make you happy, Julien being a prime example of this mentality as far as I can tell. But they could have just built their business around the premise to have more meaningful, more sexy relationships with just a little fewer girls. Promoting the latter sounds equally as legit a business to me as, most dating coaches realize sooner or later in career is more sustainable if not for their bottom line, but for their own sanity. See this one as well!]

Anyway, the above is all in square brackets, I have one simple question. So Denton dedicated this whole episode in his Top Ten Pickup Artists In The World series to Julien. Making a video about Julien as a pickup guy 4 years after the controversy and he didn't even made a passing remark that yeah, you know, there was this big, international media controversy about him, you know, I find perplexing. So my simple question is, to Denton or anyone, I'm not asking about your opinion, just the hard facts about what can we know what has happened that lead to the controversy. As I understand it mainly was a video on YouTube that was deleted for violation of YouTube's policies, but there must be backup copies somewhere. I tried doing some research, including 4 threads on this forum and other places, but only that far did I get. If you can't tell me here, I'd appreciate a PM, but why can't you tell it here in the public? You are an established coach and I'm not asking about anything extraordinary, just the hard facts to the best of your knowledge, as a journalist would. Obviously I can't believe media reports or Wikipedia. I'm old enough to make up my own mind.

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Chase

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Re: Question to Denton or anyone: Just the hard facts about the Julien controver

Space-

I'm not a huge fan of RSD. I mentored a guy for a while who was also an assistant to Tyler/Owen and the stuff I heard just took an already skeptical attitude I had of them to just not a fan at all. That said, I don't care to air secondhand stories, and wouldn't even if it was firsthand because... no good comes from being a gossip.

Also, there's some overlap here with guys in the GC community also really liking RSD / finding their videos motivating / etc., which I see no harm from at all. I don't think there's a need to say anything bad about another company many guys also like.

I will say Owen had a very honed on camera presence and is a standout speaker. He's worked hard on that skill set, and he's very good at it.

The shift they're making I suspect is in part due to a few factors:

  • Owen's older, and is probably aging out of wanting to talk about girls all the time. Older guys just get tired of being pickup gurus and generally want to move into more general self-help / life advice. This is a pretty natural shift for him.
  • RSD's follower base is older now too. Guys who started out following them wanting to get laid are getting into settled relationships, going further in their careers, getting married and having children, etc., and these guys still like RSD but don't care about pickup anymore. There's a certain logic in transitioning to a company that progresses through life with their large existing customer base rather than remaining the perpetual young man's company, where guys just leave after a while because they outgrow it.
  • The zeitgeist in general has increasingly shifted against casual dating and sex. The seduction market's been shrinking every year since 2014; there are fewer and fewer companies making less and less money. Fewer and fewer guys want to be playboys and date around. More and more guys are taking this tack of "women aren't worth the work", which you'd hear sometimes 10 years ago but it much, much more common now. The "men under 30 who are not having sex" statistics have gone out of control the past few years... used to be between 10% and 15% I believe; in 2018 it was 28%. And it's not because more men then ever are struggling and so want to learn game; instead, more men then ever are deciding game is too hard and dropping out entirely. The moral panic around consent and sexual assault, microaggressions, etc., is paralyzing a lot of men too, and also turning large swaths of the web very hostile to seduction, which makes it even harder to get traction on other platforms. Shrinking user base + mounting hostility across the web in general means the climate for running a seduction business has grown colder and colder. I'm seeing a lot of guys close down, and other guys switch from seduction to general life advice, and I do not see new blockbuster PUA coaches/companies coming up to replace them (there are a few, but not many).

Anyway. Not the main point of your post.

The Julien thing. There was a video where he grabbed a female Japanese store clerk and tried to pull her head down to his crotch in public (image). Earlier in the video he gave a seminar where he talked about how in Japan you should just go around and pull girls' heads to your dick because they will just go with it.

Those videos aren't on the public web anymore, you'd need to find someone with a hard drive or find a torrent somewhere I guess. I only saw a brief clip of it when it was up, wasn't that interesting. Just a guy being a dick to a J-girl and laughing about it to an audience.

When you're young and you're only a few years into having figured out how to pull off all kinds of crazy shit with women, after previously having sucked with them, it can make you a bit of a dick and a showboat. I went through a stage like that (though mine was tamer than Julien's). Fortunately I was not posting videos about it and was not a public figure then. So this is... kind of understandable? But it's still him being a dick, then being public about being a dick, then being crucified by the media for being a dick. He was young and brash and power drunk... but it's a little hard to sympathize with the guy too. Not sure why Owen or whoever was in charge let him get away with posting that stuff. Unless they just wanted the controversy (I remember them saying their sales had been off the charts after the huge media brouhaha kicked off).

Chase
 

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Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Re: Question to Denton or anyone: Just the hard facts about the Julien controver

Chase-

First, the off topic part, which can make for endless discussions. I just want to make it clear that I see we hold similar views on dating (such as ditching the 10-scale even if your community as a whole seems to not embrace the idea and short, successive dates after one another, depending on your skill level or situation), but I noticed before we may hold very different views on broader topics like life, business, and popular culture. But hey! This may turn out to be interesting, so let's get into it!

Chase said:
no good comes from being a gossip.
True.

Chase said:
I will say Owen had a very honed on camera presence and is a standout speaker. He's worked hard on that skill set, and he's very good at it.
This is my impression is well about his presentation. The content is a different story though.

Chase said:
  • Owen's older, and is probably aging out of wanting to talk about girls all the time. Older guys just get tired of being pickup gurus and generally want to move into more general self-help / life advice. This is a pretty natural shift for him.
  • RSD's follower base is older now too. Guys who started out following them wanting to get laid are getting into settled relationships, going further in their careers, getting married and having children, etc., and these guys still like RSD but don't care about pickup anymore. There's a certain logic in transitioning to a company that progresses through life with their large existing customer base rather than remaining the perpetual young man's company, where guys just leave after a while because they outgrow it.
Two people come into my mind who seem to aged gracefully into this without going to extremes: Brent Smith and David Wygant. I don't know much about the latter, but even though he is the darling of the Huffington Post, according to various sources, he is supposed to be legit.

Chase said:
  • The zeitgeist in general has increasingly shifted against casual dating and sex. The seduction market's been shrinking every year since 2014; there are fewer and fewer companies making less and less money. Fewer and fewer guys want to be playboys and date around. More and more guys are taking this tack of "women aren't worth the work", which you'd hear sometimes 10 years ago but it much, much more common now. The "men under 30 who are not having sex" statistics have gone out of control the past few years... used to be between 10% and 15% I believe; in 2018 it was 28%. And it's not because more men then ever are struggling and so want to learn game; instead, more men then ever are deciding game is too hard and dropping out entirely.The moral panic around consent and sexual assault, microaggressions, etc., is paralyzing a lot of men too, and also turning large swaths of the web very hostile to seduction, which makes it even harder to get traction on other platforms. Shrinking user base + mounting hostility across the web in general means the climate for running a seduction business has grown colder and colder. I'm seeing a lot of guys close down, and other guys switch from seduction to general life advice, and I do not see new blockbuster PUA coaches/companies coming up to replace them (there are a few, but not many).
I don't have the data on this, so this is just my rambling. First, I'm not sure if you imply this to America only or as a global trend. One surefire way to gauge the interest in sex is porn consumption. I don't think that's on the decline. Indeed, more and more women consume porn as well. It's also not a big deal by societal standards to be a performer either. Yes, the traditional family and relationships are on the decline for sure. But the interest in sex at least, if not sex itself? I don't think so. It's more primal. I don't live in American so I don't have your perspective, but as I've stated before, this is how I see it: You give too much importance to leftist/SJW forces, and only to them. I know they are a dominant force by now, but this won't be forever. As you stated in another thread about an individual, if the pendulum swung so far in one direction, if will definitely swing back. The same should be true for society as a whole. The younger generation, who grow up on PewDiePie and the like won't be as liberal as their parents.

I haven't looked seriously into the 20% of people get 80% of the sex hypothesis, but it's a popular idea. Nonetheless, society is sexualized. Media, porn, ads, fashion, everything. The TLDR version of the article is just to look at the images comparing 80s fashion with today's fashion. The moral panic. You forgot about STDs. Just as we more or less solved AIDS (at least on this side of the world), now we have super/mutant gonorrhea and syphilis or WTF. I have genuinely no idea if we should be scared of those. I've just looked at what David Wygant wrote for the Huffington Post. An article is titled: Is Sexual Harassment as Big a Problem as You Think? Mark Manson had a good article about the media is polarized, and polarizing, for sure. But go out and talk to real people: it's not that bad. You wrote that you do not see new blockbuster PUA coaches/companies. Similarly you don't see a new U2, as the world has changed. I wrote an answer to this to you before, So I can copy it here:

Space said:
U2 became U2 before the Internet age when labels selected a few artists to became superstars. Now it's the age of the Internet, the age of the long tail. We have relatively less famous artists than before the Internet, but in bigger quantities. Sure, now you can find something you like in every sub-genre imaginable.
Just replace U2 with RSD! Perhaps there won't be such a big pickup company to replace RSD in itself but does it really matter? There are new, interesting, smaller shops popping up on YouTube. Their business model as I see it is to provide lot's of value for free on YouTube (on which Girls Chase is just trying to catch up) while their main revenue is coaching and live events. So these coaches can have a nice lifestyle travelling the world pursing their interest, similarly to how smaller, indie bands replaced big name bands like U2. If you don't want to be a zillionaire or a mega band like U2, you can still have a nice lifestyle business as a niche indie band or pickup company/coach, thanks to current online trends, while being more true to yourself doing so, compared to the zillionaire/U2 route. This appeals to some. While taste is subjective, the indie band no one heard of is much more appealing to some people (like me) than the likes of U2. On the other hand we can measure business success more objectively by profit - but we also agreed that RSD wasn't that good anyway, so good riddance to them? I find some of these smaller pickup gigs on YouTube to give genuinely more value to me than RSD ever did. Not to mention you could easily adopt to the new marketing realities with the added benefit you already have a flagship digital product some of these smaller YouTube shops don't, and you can easily convert your best articles to a proper book to reach a wider audience on Amazon(?) while many of these YouTube coaches/companies only have video content. But I don't want to bore you with this topic endlessly. :)

Chase said:
The biggest and most well-known pickup-focused businesses are all closed (Mystery Method, Simple Pickup)
Say hello to the new Mystery!

Chase said:
Anyway. Not the main point of your post.

The Julien thing.
That was the easier one. Thanks for your review of the situation! Fair enough.

Chase said:
Not sure why Owen or whoever was in charge let him get away with posting that stuff. Unless they just wanted the controversy (I remember them saying their sales had been off the charts after the huge media brouhaha kicked off).
You essentially answered your own question, but let me reveal this link to you:

Space said:
Deluge said:
As for Julien, the guy is a sociopath in the clinical sense of the word, and everybody knows it. He's a loose cannon, but he's probably RSD's biggest revenue generator after Tyler and supposedly their most successful player (at least in Western countries). RSD would never cut him loose, he could drag down the entire ship with him.
He wrote something similar, only with a harsher tone.
 

Space

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Re: Question to Denton or anyone: Just the hard facts about the Julien controver

Chase-
Chase said:
I'm not a huge fan of RSD. I mentored a guy for a while who was also an assistant to Tyler/Owen and the stuff I heard just took an already skeptical attitude I had of them to just not a fan at all. That said, I don't care to air secondhand stories, and wouldn't even if it was firsthand because... no good comes from being a gossip.

Also, there's some overlap here with guys in the GC community also really liking RSD / finding their videos motivating / etc., which I see no harm from at all. I don't think there's a need to say anything bad about another company many guys also like.
I'm curious what's your opinion on guys like Todd or Alex who left RSD to make something more sustainable or Valentino (from 5:25 in Denton's video) who was too cool to accept RSD's offer to become their instructor in the first place. So guys coming from the RSD school of thought but may be less crazy if you will.

Speaking of Julien himself, at least big kudos to him for successfully rebranding himself after the huge backlash against him and coming out as a normal person? Apparently he has a book club with sound titles if anyone's interested in that.
 
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