Reputation managment

[StrayDog]

Curious what you guys have to say about reputation management. I have lived in a relatively smaller for quite some time now and have gained a reputation amongst some circles as being "aggressive/forward with women," of making women uncomfortable, of being too persistent with women who are uninterested, and also sometimes being "condescending" towards women. This of course gets framed in a less than desirable light. While I don't think it's entirely unearned I find it to be largely inaccurate. Especially when it is framed that I am potentially dangerous, or coercive (this is absolutely absurd to anyone who knows me well. Also pretty rare I catch wind of this sort of talk but a bummer it would even be going around). I also get it to a degree, not everybody knows me and there are looking out for themselves and each other, but a good portion of it is just social politics and the idea of this dude doing things in a socially unconventional way (doing pick up) is confronting to a lot of people. Often times when it is brought up to me it is by "concerned" guys who are "just looking out for me, and think I need to examine how I view women" or are "just making sure the women in the community feel safe." They often suggest that I go slower with women, and get to know them more before making moves, or take a more social circle-oriented approach. Living in a smaller city has a strong social circle element to it. Generally, if I game new women in day/night game, they wind up showing up in social circle. I have never been good with social circle game. It is not really my bag. I do have a solid amount of people in my corner, which helps. Like one time this waitress and I were hitting it off when it was just me and my homie in the restaurant. She kept coming up to my table giving me free wine and flirting away. When her boyfriend found out she gave me her number she threw me under the bus. Said that I cornered her and was harassing her and she only gave her number out under duress (complete and utter bullshit). They tried to get me banned from the restaurant. Some other girl there who I barely even ever spoke to jumped on the bandwagon and said I "did the same thing to her." A group of guys were plotting to beat me up. Luckily I had dated the owner of the establishment (Total badass/hottie) and she told those chumps to shut the fuck up and get their shit together. Can't imagine how bad that would have gotten if she wasn't there. Women who love me and know me well (The ones I have slept with and the ones I have not) know me to be of solid character and would get behind me any day). Women who have had problems/frustrations with me who have taken the time to actually communicate with me have come to respect me despite their initial skepticism. It is usually just the women who don't want to take responsibility for their own participation/ lack of communication, or dudes who want to feel like they are protectors of women. While I do have a reputation for sleeping with a lot of women, it is often painted in a kind of skeevy way and not in a desirable pre-selection sort of way.


I have definitely contributed to this . All the mistakes I've made while learning game. Moments of poor calibration. Bad texting habits (this is a big one, I have been pretty bad with texting and definitely done some teasing over text that did not land well, and have also been obnoxiously persistent over text before I got the hint that she wasn't bitting). Failed escalations resulting in buyer's remorse. Hitting on just about every hot woman I meet (not screening hard enough) and so on. Being obnoxiously persistent with women in the community. I have definitely pushed buttons and tested boundaries in ways that haven't always been smooth. I have at times shared too much of my dating life with people who are untrustworthy. There has also been a few times when I succumbed to the social pressure to avoid conflict when bitches were acting crazy (this never helped as it just showed them they could sink their teeth in further really trying to tear me down). Also, I have explained myself too much to some people who in no way deserved an explanation of my behavior.

The obvious solutions here are
-Get better at game
-Who gives a fuck what people say
-Move

I am working on game and making improvements. I generally don't let the rumor mill get to me but it can be real energy-consuming when it comes up again from this person or that person and I have to manage it. I am working on moving to another city, but there are some circumstances that are going to make that be a bit before it happens. What are your thoughts on managing all this for the time being?

 

[Rakehell]

In social environments plausible deniability is key. You almost want to eer on the side of passivity over aggressively trying to make something happen.

This is because women have a lot more to lose if she’s casted out from her social circle than say a man. Reputation is key for them and some women will not hesitate to throw you under the bus when push comes to shove if she is not invested in you beyond a sexual level and you haven’t had sex with her.

This isn’t to say don’t flirt or don’t be a sexual guy, you definitely want to do these things. But be careful about trying to aggressively push for something with social circle girls because it can really bite you in the ass if you do it wrong.

Try giving girls an out when you escalate the seduction. Instead of getting her number after fliration, build up to the number with something social. Something plausibly deniable if confronted.

Think social but with sexual undertones through your behavior. Going really direct in social circle is high risk high reward.

As for guys raining on your parade I think Robert Greene put it best;

Like the Siren, the Rake faces the most danger from members of his own sex, who are far less indulgent than women are of his constant skirt chasing. In the old days, a Rake was often an aristocrat, and no matter how many people he offended or even killed, in the end he would go un- punished. Today, only stars and the very wealthy can play the Rake with
impunity; the rest of us need to be careful.
Elvis Presley had been a shy young man. Attaining early stardom, and
seeing the power it gave him over women, he went berserk, becoming a Rake almost overnight. Like many Rakes, Elvis had a predilection for women who were already taken. He found himself cornered by an angry husband or boyfriend on numerous occasions, and came away with a few cuts and bruises. This might seem to suggest that you should step lightly around husbands and boyfriends, especially early on in your career. But the charm of the Rake is that such dangers don't matter to them. You cannot be a Rake by being fearful and prudent; the occasional pummeling is part of the game. Later on, in any case, at the height of Elvis's fame, no husband would dare touch him.
The greater danger for the Rake comes not from the violently offended husband but from those insecure men who feel threatened by the Don Juan figure. Although they will not admit it, they envy the Rake's life of plea- sure, and like everyone envious, they will attack in hidden ways, often masking their persecutions as morality. The Rake may find his career en- dangered by such men (or by the occasional woman who is equally inse- cure, and who feels hurt because the Rake does not want her). There is little the Rake can do to avoid envy; if everyone was as successful in seduc- tion, society would not function.
So accept envy as a badge of honor. Don't be naive, be aware. When attacked by a moralist persecutor, do not be taken in by their crusade; it is motivated by envy, pure and simple. You can blunt it by being less of a Rake, asking forgiveness, claiming to have reformed, but this will damage your reputation, making you seem less lovably rakish. In the end, it is better to suffer attacks with dignity and keep on seducing. Seduction is the source of your power; and you can always count on the infinite indulgence of women.

 

[StrayDog]

In social environments plausible deniability is key. You almost want to eer on the side of passivity over aggressively trying to make something happen.

This is because women have a lot more to lose if she’s casted out from her social circle than say a man. Reputation is key for them and some women will not hesitate to throw you under the bus when push comes to shove if she is not invested in you beyond a sexual level and you haven’t had sex with her.

This isn’t to say don’t flirt or don’t be a sexual guy, you definitely want to do these things. But be careful about trying to aggressively push for something with social circle girls because it can really bite you in the ass if you do it wrong.

Try giving girls an out when you escalate the seduction. Instead of getting her number after fliration, build up to the number with something social. Something plausibly deniable if confronted.

Think social but with sexual undertones through your behavior. Going really direct in social circle is high risk high reward.

Are you suggesting that I drop the pick up thing and veer more into social circle? Or that I use pickup to bring women into social circle then run social circle game from there? This would definitely be a challenge for me, and so not where I would want to direct my energy. I am generally disengaged from social circle. Aside from my really tight homies I kind of just roll through this circle or that circle but am not really deeply involved, spending a lot of time to myself. To be clear, I rarely hit on women through social circle. Usually, it is out during day game or night game. They often just end up being a part of social circle after the fact (population of about 80,000 people in the city to date). That's when these social circles (which I am only loosely affiliated with) get to running their mouths. The thing I like the most about pick up is how it allows me to keep my women and my social circle relatively separate. But obviously, the strategy here is about what works best for the environment I am in, not what my personal preferences are. So I am totally open to reconsidering how I run pick-up in this city. Also, totally see what you are saying but we are talking about a decade of history behind me here so the reputation is pretty well set at this point (not that it can't change of course).

That Robert Greene quote really hits. Thanks

 

[Fuck This]

Sounds to me more like you are chasing more than being chased. If you have women flirting with you, then your reputation detractors are just sour grapes. But if you are on the Offensive more, then you need to take a good look at what you are putting out there, Perhaps you need more social proof from the standpoint of visible "Satisfied customers".

 

[StrayDog]

Sounds to me more like you are chasing more than being chased. If you have women flirting with you, then your reputation detractors are just sour grapes. But if you are on the Offensive more, then you need to take a good look at what you are putting out there, Perhaps you need more social proof from the standpoint of visible "Satisfied customers".

There is some truth to this, as I have definitely done more chasing in life than I would like to admit. There is some balance to it all, but my "satisfied customers" aren't always around to represent. A lot of happy customers have been from out of town, just passing through, or have left town. How might you suggest generating this "positive fan base"? Also how might you suggest generating solid leads in a more passive way, when pick up requires a bit of initial effort to generate momentum? I guess I am curious what overarching strategies you might implement here. Generating leads, running dates, following dates, and so on.

 

[Will_V]

I'm sure this article will be of help: https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-survive-time-moral-panic

I don't think you can avoid a certain amount of this while you are pushing for new levels. The Robert Greene quote is good, you really have to have a personality that embraces risk to a certain extent. My simple advice would be to move to a big city until you have a better handle on things.

That said, it's important to cultivate good relationships with people who are consistently around you, so that when someone accuses you of something, you've got people to back you up. The most important thing is to not come across as a lone target. Try to come across (preferably truthfully) as well connected with all manner of people - the sort others might want to meet and the sort they wouldn't. But the main thing I'd suggest is trying to build a network of close friends who share your lifestyle, who in turn are socially skilled and come across well to others, who can give a good account of you.

I can't provide too much help in regards to social circle - I'm someone who likes to spend time either alone or in very small circles, and that's just how I like it (although it might change to some extent - expanding my social experiences, and finding ways to meet and spend time with exceptional and interesting people, is something that is a priority for the near future).

I don't quite know how to explain this, but hopefully I can: try to behave in a way that even if you go too far or make a mistake, people still like you for some reason. Be generous in giving value yet somehow always steal the frame. No matter your circumstances, don't stop giving people the impression that you know a better, more bountiful side of life that they might be able to have if they were on your side. Control the narrative around yourself like a movie director, and people might find themselves too charmed to be moved by someone talking dirty about you.

Lastly, cultivate female friends. There's nothing like seeing a woman enjoying herself with a man to put firmly out of mind any impression that he's a weirdo.

 

[Don Giovanni]

Curious what you guys have to say about reputation management. I have lived in a relatively smaller for quite some time now and have gained a reputation amongst some circles as being "aggressive/forward with women," of making women uncomfortable, of being too persistent with women who are uninterested, and also sometimes being "condescending" towards women. This of course gets framed in a less than desirable light. While I don't think it's entirely unearned I find it to be largely inaccurate. Especially when it is framed that I am potentially dangerous, or coercive (this is absolutely absurd to anyone who knows me well. Also pretty rare I catch wind of this sort of talk but a bummer it would even be going around). I also get it to a degree, not everybody knows me and there are looking out for themselves and each other, but a good portion of it is just social politics and the idea of this dude doing things in a socially unconventional way (doing pick up) is confronting to a lot of people. Often times when it is brought up to me it is by "concerned" guys who are "just looking out for me, and think I need to examine how I view women" or are "just making sure the women in the community feel safe." They often suggest that I go slower with women, and get to know them more before making moves, or take a more social circle-oriented approach. Living in a smaller city has a strong social circle element to it. Generally, if I game new women in day/night game, they wind up showing up in social circle. I have never been good with social circle game. It is not really my bag. I do have a solid amount of people in my corner, which helps. Like one time this waitress and I were hitting it off when it was just me and my homie in the restaurant. She kept coming up to my table giving me free wine and flirting away. When her boyfriend found out she gave me her number she threw me under the bus. Said that I cornered her and was harassing her and she only gave her number out under duress (complete and utter bullshit). They tried to get me banned from the restaurant. Some other girl there who I barely even ever spoke to jumped on the bandwagon and said I "did the same thing to her." A group of guys were plotting to beat me up. Luckily I had dated the owner of the establishment (Total badass/hottie) and she told those chumps to shut the fuck up and get their shit together. Can't imagine how bad that would have gotten if she wasn't there. Women who love me and know me well (The ones I have slept with and the ones I have not) know me to be of solid character and would get behind me any day). Women who have had problems/frustrations with me who have taken the time to actually communicate with me have come to respect me despite their initial skepticism. It is usually just the women who don't want to take responsibility for their own participation/ lack of communication, or dudes who want to feel like they are protectors of women. While I do have a reputation for sleeping with a lot of women, it is often painted in a kind of skeevy way and not in a desirable pre-selection sort of way.


I have definitely contributed to this . All the mistakes I've made while learning game. Moments of poor calibration. Bad texting habits (this is a big one, I have been pretty bad with texting and definitely done some teasing over text that did not land well, and have also been obnoxiously persistent over text before I got the hint that she wasn't bitting). Failed escalations resulting in buyer's remorse. Hitting on just about every hot woman I meet (not screening hard enough) and so on. Being obnoxiously persistent with women in the community. I have definitely pushed buttons and tested boundaries in ways that haven't always been smooth. I have at times shared too much of my dating life with people who are untrustworthy. There has also been a few times when I succumbed to the social pressure to avoid conflict when bitches were acting crazy (this never helped as it just showed them they could sink their teeth in further really trying to tear me down). Also, I have explained myself too much to some people who in no way deserved an explanation of my behavior.

The obvious solutions here are
-Get better at game
-Who gives a fuck what people say
-Move

I am working on game and making improvements. I generally don't let the rumor mill get to me but it can be real energy-consuming when it comes up again from this person or that person and I have to manage it. I am working on moving to another city, but there are some circumstances that are going to make that be a bit before it happens. What are your thoughts on managing all this for the time being?

Reliving shit I did 2 years ago while reading this. I’m moving back to that small city soon and I’m still trying to figure out what my approach will be.

1. Do not practice game in social circle. Do not try to close girls unless you know you’ll be successful. You fucked her, she’s happy? Great, you just became more interesting to other girls. A girl calls you a creep to protect her reputation? You’re a creep now, a girls word is worth more then yours, just the way it is, negative social proof.

2. Maximum frame control and calibration at all times. If some girl says you’re a creep you need to double down on accusations against her, make her regret she said anything, make her look bad. Or have someone above her social value do that (like in your case, even better).

You need to present attractive qualities, paint yourself as the prize not just to one girl but to whole groups of people. Not easy, but gets easier once the social proof ball starts rolling.

This one is funny, you need better frame control in social circle, but the way to get it is cold approach.

3. If it happens that your cold approach targets keep popping up in your social circle, I would suggest you pick new venues for practicing cold approach. You hang with indie rock hipsters? Go hit on reaggaton chicks.

4. Just don’t be direct. Unless you’re @Hector Papi Castillo I guess.

…

Or you could just not care. Burn circles down and find new ones. Even better, move to a multi million city and you’re good.

 

[Fuck This]

Lastly, cultivate female friends. There's nothing like seeing a woman enjoying herself with a man to put firmly out of mind any impression that he's a weirdo.

This only works if you have taken yourself out of the "availability pool". ie in a monogamous relationship. I made a ton of female friends when I was married. And they envied my wife. When I became single, there was a bit of Value projection, because I'd been off the market so long.

A single guy who is known to push the boundaries of propriety has the deck stacked against him. If he starts dating a girl from outside the circle the eligible women start to miss his veiled advances....

You want women to compete for you, not resent you for hitting on their friend. There is a difference. Bring the out of town date to a public event. that will generate some talk...mostly good.

Don't "pee in the pool" That is don't Pump'n'Dump some girl who is friends with women you want to date.

 

[StrayDog]

Don't "pee in the pool" That is don't Pump'n'Dump some girl who is friends with women you want to date.

precisely how are you defining pump and dump here?

 

[Fuck This]

 

[StrayDog]

Lol. I get it but I mean sometimes it just kind of happens for one reason or another. How would you suggest managing flings that end up very short term (all be it without the explicit intention to just pump and dump) While maintaining a solid rep and general access to women from that circle? It can be pretty energy-consuming maintaining some sort of connection with women where it didn't quite flow with just as means of smoothing out things.

 

[StrayDog]

@Will_V @Don Giovanni @Rakehell @Fuck This Really appreciate the insight here guys.

Some takeaways I am getting here (and expounding on)
-Lean into my rakish qualities rather than tamping them down for the crowd. Refine the charming aspects of my archetype so that it is easy for others to accept the more off-the-beaten-path aspects of my lifestyle
-Determine who my allies are in any given group. Focus on building and maintaining strong bonds with them.
-When aspects of my reputation are directly addressed to me hold a strong frame and shape the narrative in my favor.
-Be way more clear about when and how I apply any sort of persistence. Identify any habit of chasing and nip it in the bud.
-Become more strategic with my pipeline. Developing my reputation like that of a small underground business, where only insiders have access (not only to me and the experience I provide but also access to the knowledge that I even provide this experience). I need to think more systematically about my whole approach to the game. What experience am I really selling here? The whole package. Including but not limited to her social experience after all is said and done. This will help me to refine my sales pitch and be more hands-off with women who aren't quite interested yet. I need to think more big picture here rather than flying by the seat of my pants from one seduction to another.
-Have an intriguing marketing strategy that entices rather than pushes. (this is of course pick-up 101, and I have some solid elements. but to really be clear on exactly what my strategy is here will go a very long way)
-Be strategic with my escalations, implementing them only when it is clear that doing so will be in line with the bigger picture
-Have a clear strategy for managing the rotation that ensures there are no sour grapes amongst the ladies
-Diversify my market

I think a major key to this all is; rather than focus on the obstacle (people running their mouths) focus on a big picture vision that eliminates as
much of that as possible, by simple virtue of how the vision is structured and implemented.

Always open to more insights if you feel like throwing them down, but really appreciate everything you have contributed.