Requests for gifts upfront

[TomInHo]

You think I am resistant to good advice?

Yes, I do think you’re resistant to good advice, even if it’s not intentional

It’s strange

You come here asking for help, yet often act like you’re above the advice given. That comes off as egotistical and ungrateful, even if you don’t mean it that way

You say you want practical advice, but it often seems like you’re only open to what confirms your current worldview.

Anything that challenges your habits or identity gets rationalized away. That’s not how change works.

You said, “I’m never going to be James Bond.”

That’s exactly the kind of belief that will keep you stuck. If you’ve already decided you’re not good with women, your brain will work hard to stay right about that, through self sabotage or half-hearted effort.

And the contrast you described isn’t illogical at all:

• You can keep women once they know you → your relationship game is strong.
• You struggle to get new women’s attention → your attraction game is weak.

That’s fixable

But only if you stop defending your current approach and start admitting what’s not working. There's zero shame in that. Many of us started from that exact place.

As for @Tryst

He followed Mystery Method exactly, without overthinking or arguing with it. He knew he wasn’t cool yet, but trusted the process and became someone women are drawn to

In my opinion, you should pick one proven seduction system and commit to it fully. And be aware of your habit to question everything.

That, not buying women gifts, is the biggest thing holding you back right now.

Follow the process to the tee, even if it feels off at first.

Your only job right now should be this: become good at following that process.

• Don’t experiment.
• Don’t tweak it to fit your personality.
• Don’t mix it with other seduction methods.

Pick one, only one, and stick to it obsessively, like you’re following a recipe.

If you do that, you’ll get laid. And your mindset will slowly shift into the kind of man who understands what women need to get intimate fast.

After you're getting laid consistently that’s when you can start tweaking the system to match your new and improved mindset and worldview

But if your first instinct is to say “this doesn’t fit my personality”…

That’s the exact resistance we’re talking about.

So before you type a reply, ask yourself:

“How can I expect to get what I’ve never gotten… if I’m not willing to do what I’ve never done?”

 

[Skills]

Skills, I’ve now read some of the stuff on your site, and I’ve watched a couple videos on your ‘Dance Floor’ YouTube page, and having seen your face and listened to your voice I understand a bit better where you’re coming from. Sorry if we weren’t on the same wavelength at the start.

You’re quite right, I didn’t get the point. Would you mind making it again, please?

Thank you
Marty

just the basic seduction advice that you don't want to buy gifts of the get go(without actual some investment and interest in you), the seduction will go nowhere, so if you actually buy her flowers, at her request you are just making things harder on yourself... Gifts has a timing, you buying her a gift at her request and in this stage will kill atraction...

and i was just posting a rule in an article explaining more or less the why by david d.... I should have been clearer, i thought you would get it, but then you said some weird lol, "as you manipulating" or something, was just that you did not get my point...

 

[Marty]

That comes off as egotistical and ungrateful, even if you don’t mean it that way

That was certainly not intended, please accept my apologies and @Tryst likewise to you.

• You can keep women once they know you → your relationship game is strong.
• You struggle to get new women’s attention → your attraction game is weak.

That’s fixable

That makes sense. Interesting how once you can put a name to something, you can tackle it. I didn't know it was "attraction game" that I needed to work on. Thank you.

Pick one, only one, and stick to it obsessively, like you’re following a recipe.

That's interesting. I think I will stick with the Girls Chase one. That's the one I like best, from those I'm aware of (like @Skills said above there's a lot of spam around), and that one worked to get me from total beginner to someone who at least managed five new lays outside of relationships over ten years.

And your mindset will slowly shift into the kind of man who understands what women need to get intimate fast.

That's exactly what I was seeking to do with my questions. Again, you've put it into much better words to help me get my arms around it. I was just calling it "learning a new skill" in a vague way without really being able to express it. Thank you again.

I didn't know that picking a single, tested process without mixing it with others and without attempting to tweak it was the way to do that. Now you've made that clear for me.

After you're getting laid consistently that’s when you can start tweaking the system to match your new and improved mindset and worldview

Okay I can revisit that later... if it's even necessary. I was just thinking that if I had more contact with women available to me, I would probably not worry so much about what one or other has said to me in the past.

Thank you so much, @TomInHo, your message has a decency and firmness to it that makes it very persuasive and trustworthy.

 

[TomInHo]

Great! @Marty

Now that you’ve decided to follow the Girls Chase process, here’s a good next step:

Can you outline the key steps it teaches from “Hi” to Sex?

Just a simple breakdown

Doing this can help you see how much you currently understand the process and make the whole path feel more tangible

It might also reveal where you’re truly getting stuck most often

Clarity like that makes troubleshooting way easier

 

[Marty]

Can you outline the key steps it teaches from “Hi” to Sex?

Just a simple breakdown

Good test... let me see what I can remember:

• "Hi": Don't startle her, certainly don't approach from the rear, probably approach from the side (if necessary, gently touch her elbow to get attention); speak loudly, slowly, and clearly, maintaining a good posture. Consider averting body language slightly to avoid "coming off too strong"; this can be paired with flirtatious eye contact (out of the sides of the eyes). Make clear my intentions upfront, by telling her outright or otherwise communicating through tone, nonverbals, or by implication that I find her attractive.
• Contact details: Suggest a date first, maybe even nailing down some details of her typical schedule, before requesting a phone number. That way, it comes off natural as you need the contact details to ensure follow-through on the date she has already agreed to.
• Text or call: Use the phone only to set up logistics. Certainly don't attempt to flirt by text. Don't exchange endless messages without having a clear direction and objective in mind, which should be getting her out on a date.
• Date: Exert leadership by setting up the time and location of the date in advance and by gently guiding her into the venue by the small of her back. Be assertive but polite in insisting on a good table, help her to choose, etc. Be aware of the clock and limit time on the date so she doesn't get bored. Escalate on a high note: When she's laughing or having fun, suggest the next activity of the evening to prevent a crash of emotions back down to ground level. "Deep-dive" by asking questions to get to know her, which shows that you find her special.
• Sex: Have her take off her shoes when she enters your apartment. Politely offer her something to drink and play some music to help her feel at home. Make sure she feels safe and knows she can leave at any time if she doesn't like the way things are going. Help her to orgasm first by using adapted missionary.

I think the above is more or less correct, no, at least as far as the linear process goes? I know that there's much more to it as per that amazing classification of articles thread, making it more like a web or matrix, but you said stick to the main outline.

 

[TomInHo]

Okay, great

That looks like a solid, straightforward outline.

Now, thinking back over all your interactions, where in this process do you tend to lose the most girls?

And when they raise objections or concerns during that process, what are the common ones you’ve noticed?

What tools or approaches do you use to get past those and keep things moving forward?

 

[Marty]

Now, thinking back over all your interactions, where in this process do you tend to lose the most girls?

Ah I think I can answer that fairly easily:

That way, it comes off natural as you need the contact details to ensure follow-through on the date she has already agreed to.

This is one of the worst blockages in the funnel. It presupposes that she has agreed to the date, and not merely said "no, thank you". At that point I normally cringe a little inwardly, but try to maintain at least an outward expression of dignity and politely exit the interaction.

Don't exchange endless messages without having a clear direction and objective in mind, which should be getting her out on a date.

Sometimes things get screwed up here as well, either through a promising interaction leading to nothing or through a total failure to generate a response.

"Deep-dive" by asking questions to get to know her, which shows that you find her special.

When it goes wrong at this late stage, it's disappointing. I was sad to be rejected after three dates once. The girl is still occasionally in touch with me and obviously likes me (she says so), which makes it the more galling. Another time a girl was willing to follow my lead the same evening, but wouldn't stay in touch. In the years since, she's accepted my LinkedIn request at least, so no hard feeling I guess but it's kind of a moot point now.

Have her take off her shoes when she enters your apartment. Politely offer her something to drink and play some music to help her feel at home.

I did have an interaction go off the rails even after a lady left my apartment once, back in 2019. Unfortunately I didn't file a report, but long story short I met her when she was a sales manager at a store where I bought some boots, and very tall, slim, and attractive; while I had been trying them on, the woman I was with who was advising me on the purchase (no romantic connection) found out that she was single and looking for someone, which is really going above and beyond; I went back a couple weeks later and told her I liked her and wanted to ask her out; she came out on a very nice date with dinner and a walk after in December 2018, then our calendars were poorly coordinated, but in March 2019 she came out with me again, the restaurant was right by my apartment this time, and I invited her home and served her tea. Then I walked her back to her car. I checked she got home safely and she responded and told me she liked the tea, but then declined to reply to my next message. Around 2022 I saw her again in the street; she had opened a salon very near where I live, and was surprised I remembered her name, but we chatted amiably enough; I texted her again and again she didn't respond.

However, this is unusual. Once I've invited a girl home I'm normally fine and I don't think I need help with this phase right now.

And when they raise objections or concerns during that process, what are the common ones you’ve noticed?

• Refusal to share contact details or accept a date: no explanation given, I guess she just doesn't like me
• No response when texting: the objection speaks for itself
• End of the date: she doesn't see a reason to join me at my home. Again I didn't file a FR (I'm sorry) but here I describe how a woman in 2022 kept asking "Why?" "What for?" when I invited her home. I didn't have a good answer, or any answer at all, really. Again we had had a nice time in a Spanish restaurant which was right nearby my place.
• Nonresponsive after the first date: again, no feedback, therefore no idea what went wrong
• Explicit rejection after several dates: "we can only meet as friends"

What tools or approaches do you use to get past those and keep things moving forward?

I am a bit wary of doing that, I'm sorry to say. I understand that Chase made an amazing post which he re-referenced recently on not worrying about whether girls like you, but I still worry about it and figure that if they are saying "no" or not following my lead then they don't like me, as I don't want to come off pushy, as the guys who are doing that are probably the ones who are making all women afraid of the rest of us by association, hence the increasing concerns about women's safety in the modern world. I'd like to understand how to be assertive without attempting to get her to do something she doesn't want to do.

 

[Marty]

@Marty it's been a year, did you try Hectir's advice of letting out the gladiator? Did you get results from it

I'm afraid I was not able to do that, @Adventurer; I didn't want to say as I was afraid of disappointing Hector who has been very kind to me over many years, but I didn't understand what I was being asked to do. I know that he suggests fixing some specific issues to build on what I've learned so far, but I'm not sure what those issues are.

 

[TomInHo]

Sometimes things get screwed up here as well, either through a promising interaction leading to nothing or through a total failure to generate a response.

Leads that go nowhere is a part of game too. Have to accept some women will show lots of interest upfront then fall of later. It happens to everybody

You just keep going and collecting more leads because even though same fall off some also stick

When it goes wrong at this late stage, it's disappointing. I was sad to be rejected after three dates once.

Okay you're deep diving which is great for building similarity. But what are you also doing for increasing arousal on your dates

I'm aware of chase's SAC system but it seems you are mostly focused on the "Similarity" part

IIRC chase does things to increase arousal by teasing, projecting sexual undertones through body language and also using Chase Frames. So she doesn't only see him as a nice guy

So are you doing the same? Are you doing anything in your interactions beyond just deep diving to sexualize the conversation so she not only feels connected to you but feels sexual feeling toward you?

I did have an interaction go off the rails even after a lady left my apartment once, back in 2019. Unfortunately I didn't file a report, but long story short I met her when she was a sales manager at a store where I bought some boots, and very tall, slim, and attractive; while I had been trying them on, the woman I was with who was advising me on the purchase (no romantic connection) found out that she was single and looking for someone, which is really going above and beyond; I went back a couple weeks later and told her I liked her and wanted to ask her out; she came out on a very nice date with dinner and a walk after in December 2018,

Okay but on that date did you invite her back to your place at the end?

I also know Chase has a rule about always inviting girls home, especially when it's a more planned out date

So did you follow that last step? Or did you skip it because it didn't feel right?

• Refusal to share contact details or accept a date: no explanation given, I guess she just doesn't like me

That happens. If they refuse can just take the L

If they seem unsure, can extend the interaction to build more attraction/comfort. Or can do that over text and make it feel lower pressure for her to come out when she feels more ready

If they accept the date then all is good

• No response when texting: the objection speaks for itself

Depends on what you text her

And how many times do you follow up if you don't get a response?

• End of the date: she doesn't see a reason to join me at my home. Again I didn't file a FR (I'm sorry) but here I describe how a woman in 2022 kept asking "Why?" "What for?" when I invited her home. I didn't have a good answer, or any answer at all, really. Again we had had a nice time in a Spanish restaurant which was right nearby my place.

Well it looks like you are skipping a step here

If women are asking you "what for?" why don't you have a response?

Part of pulling is having a reason for why you are going back to your place. Like to watch a movie, listen to music, drink tea

It works better when you give women a reason to come over, so they can save face and not feel it's only about sex

Look up the term Plausible Deniability, and I also think Chase talked about this more in depth in his courses too

• Nonresponsive after the first date: again, no feedback, therefore no idea what went wrong

I already gave some things you should look at above.

From what you wrote it seems like you may be focusing too much on Similarity and not enough on Arousal and Compliance

And even with your Deep Dives, you may not be doing that perfectly either

So should go back to the source material to make sure you're doing the techniques properly

• Explicit rejection after several dates: "we can only meet as friends"

This is a side effect of doing the above steps subpar

So once again will need to go back to source material and analyze your game to see where you need to do some tweaks

I am a bit wary of doing that, I'm sorry to say. I understand that Chase made an amazing post which he re-referenced recently on not worrying about whether girls like you, but I still worry about it and figure that if they are saying "no" or not following my lead then they don't like me, as I don't want to come off pushy, as the guys who are doing that are probably the ones who are making all women afraid of the rest of us by association, hence the increasing concerns about women's safety in the modern world. I'd like to understand how to be assertive without attempting to get her to do something she doesn't want to do.

Well, what makes you think that handling objections or easing concerns is the same as trying to make someone do something they don’t want to do?

I get that you want to be respectful, that’s good

But here’s the thing: if you’re hesitant to lead because you’re afraid of offending her, have you ever considered she might be hesitant to follow because she's afraid of how she’ll be perceived?

It’s not always a hard “no.” Sometimes it’s:

• “Yes… but I’m nervous.”
• “I want to… but I don’t want to seem easy.”
• “I’m unsure and looking to you for clarity.”

Being assertive and handling objections/concerns doesn’t mean being pushy

You’re not manipulating her. If anything, you're helping her quiet the doubts in her head and feel safe saying yes to what she actually wants

That could be kissing you. That could be letting go and following your lead. That could be riding you all night long

When done right, objection handling makes her feel understood. It builds trust. It shows emotional intelligence. And it increases your value in her eyes

But being passive actually does the opposite, and in a way is a bit selfish

It signals that you’re more concerned about your own fear of rejection than you are about her experience

That’s one reason women say they don’t like “nice guys.”

Because “nice guys” are often too scared of hearing no to lead confidently, even when she’s practically begging for a reason to say YESSSSSS all night long

Objections are not the end of a seduction

More often than not they’re the signal that it’s actually begun

 

[Marty]

Leads that go nowhere is a part of game too. Have to accept some women will show lots of interest upfront then fall of later. It happens to everybody

You just keep going and collecting more leads because even though same fall off some also stick

Thanks @TomInHo, agree, sounds like a plan.

But what are you also doing for increasing arousal on your dates

That's a very good question. It would be wrong to say I don't think I've mastered that; I don't even think I've begun. Everything written anywhere about women's arousal always seems to take the perspective of already being in the bedroom and starts with how and where to touch. I'd love to know if there are ways of generating it during the dates, as you mention, if of course she's comfortable with getting aroused in public like that.

I'm aware of chase's SAC system but it seems you are mostly focused on the "Similarity" part

I'm aware of the system too, I watched videos on it when I bought the One Date course. Before that, I was using the Value-Attainability-Compliance framework that he described in his earlier articles.

You are probably right that I am more focused on the "similarity" part, focused on compatibility (what we like to do together) and that I need to give more emphasis to the other two.

IIRC chase does things to increase arousal by teasing, projecting sexual undertones through body language and also using Chase Frames. So she doesn't only see him as a nice guy

I would love to learn to do this. This sounds extremely advanced compared with the level I am actually at. I would love to "project sexual undertones" but I can't quite imagine what that looks like. I am okay at teasing but (sorry if I sound like a broken record) only in relationships with girls I know well, I would need to learn to think on my feet to find something to tease girls about whom I hardly know.

So are you doing the same? Are you doing anything in your interactions beyond just deep diving to sexualize the conversation so she not only feels connected to you but feels sexual feeling toward you?

Not yet. I find it amazing that it is possible for a man to generate sexual feeling toward him in that context, on a date somewhere rather than in private, I would love to learn to do it.

Okay but on that date did you invite her back to your place at the end?

Not on that one. At that time both she and I had multiple commitments and there was no question of going home together from the start of that date. We were also at the wrong end of town, although the venue was a good one for getting to know each other. For the next date, I picked a very nice place, which she liked, right next to my apartment and we went home together right after dinner. In the venue, when she returned from the restroom, I had commented that she was a bomba (bombshell) in her tight jeans with her long legs. Back at my apartment, after we had tea, which I remember she said tasted very good, we kissed. We did that standing up, and I remember I found it particularly sexy because she was about my height or even a little taller (I'm not a small guy) and that was unusual.

I also know Chase has a rule about always inviting girls home, especially when it's a more planned out date

It's a great idea. I planned it out that way the second time. The first time, I just wanted to get things moving, so that they didn't go stale after the bold approach, despite both of us being busy people. I believe Chase calls this an "informational date". It was planned that way from the start, and she and I were clear on expectations.

So did you follow that last step? Or did you skip it because it didn't feel right?

It was not in the plan for the first date, but it was for the second, and I went ahead with it, and she was not surprised and complied willingly.

And how many times do you follow up if you don't get a response?

@TomInHo, to be honest, in recent years I don't like to bug her. I prefer to look elsewhere (as you said above) for women who are looking for me. When I was younger I tended to persist for longer, often to little or no effect.

Do you recommend texting a few times over the space of, say, a month to give her a chance to get back if she really wants?

Well it looks like you are skipping a step here

If women are asking you "what for?" why don't you have a response?

I guess I must have thought that the answer was obvious, and was surprised she couldn't see it, but as I see you have covered that possibility in your next comment (please see below).

On a different occasion, I did tell a girl that I wanted us to be together in private, so that we could get intimate, and she told me not to rush it, so that we could do nice things first that we would look back on and remember fondly, and it turned out to be good advice and we initiated a relationship soon after—with excellent sex.

Part of pulling is having a reason for why you are going back to your place. Like to watch a movie, listen to music, drink tea

It works better when you give women a reason to come over, so they can save face and not feel it's only about sex

Look up the term Plausible Deniability, and I also think Chase talked about this more in depth in his courses too

Yeah this is a good point. I am familiar with the term, and @Will_V kindly coached me on this in a more recent FR, and as a result I now feel better equipped in this situation. The interaction we are talking about was from a couple years before that, and I didn't yet know this.

And even with your Deep Dives, you may not be doing that perfectly either

I am absolutely sure that I am not doing it perfectly, there is always a lot to learn from the articles.

So once again will need to go back to source material and analyze your game to see where you need to do some tweaks

Great idea. That's also why I posted the FR with as much detail as possible.

Well, what makes you think that handling objections or easing concerns is the same as trying to make someone do something they don’t want to do?

Probably it is because that is the way I would see it if someone tried to do it to me, but then again, I am a person who is generally very sure of what he wants and what he doesn't want, and I appreciate that this does not apply universally to all people. I like what I say being taken at face value, because I consider quite carefully before saying anything, but women have told me before that I shouldn't necessarily take everything they say literally.

But here’s the thing: if you’re hesitant to lead because you’re afraid of offending her, have you ever considered she might be hesitant to follow because she's afraid of how she’ll be perceived?

You are right, I had not properly considered this.

It’s not always a hard “no.” Sometimes it’s:

• “Yes… but I’m nervous.”
• “I want to… but I don’t want to seem easy.”
• “I’m unsure and looking to you for clarity.”

That's an interesting perspective.

Being assertive and handling objections/concerns doesn’t mean being pushy

You’re not manipulating her. If anything, you're helping her quiet the doubts in her head and feel safe saying yes to what she actually wants

That could be kissing you. That could be letting go and following your lead. That could be riding you all night long

This is very interesting language you are using, and food for thought. The work I do for a living requires consideration of how others will perceive an offer—I have been in the same profession for 20+ years and without the ability to understand how others will react to a proposal, I could not have succeeded, it is the very essence of the role. It also involves working constantly with other people, some of whom are sales managers who come to me for authorization of exceptions to policy etc. on individual deals, and regularly use the term "objection handling" that you mentioned more than once above.

I wonder whether there might be some scope for skill transfer here. Just a thought.

But being passive actually does the opposite, and in a way is a bit selfish

It signals that you’re more concerned about your own fear of rejection than you are about her experience

That's fascinating.

That's another thing that I had never considered: That not wanting to go beyond a certain stage of intimacy on a date was a "rejection" from a woman. I suppose I just thought she wasn't attracted to me in that way. Or that she had changed her mind—by no means an unknown habit, among women especially.

...Which brings me to another point. Earlier, you said that I exhibited confirmation bias with the advice I was offered:

You say you want practical advice, but it often seems like you’re only open to what confirms your current worldview.

I didn't initially realize I had a "worldview". However, it seems to me know that what you were getting at is exactly what we talked about above. Women are thinking in a different way from how I think they're thinking. You said that they:

• Are concerned about how they will be perceived if they move forward with the interaction too enthusiastically and proactively without a strong lead from the man;
• Need reassurance and clarity from the man to help quiet their own doubts;
• Consider that a man taking her on a date, but the date not proceeding to intimacy, is her "rejection" of that man and that if doesn't pursue intimacy it is therefore due to his "fear of rejection"

...none of which were completely obvious to me before.

That’s one reason women say they don’t like “nice guys.”

Because “nice guys” are often too scared of hearing no to lead confidently, even when she’s practically begging for a reason to say YESSSSSS all night long

This I can completely understand. I don't think I am in danger of getting into "nice guy territory", in fact I often have women telling me that I don't need to be so obvious, they get the message already It's more an issue of being a bit crude and clumsy with the communication, since women tend to be more subtle.

Objections are not the end of a seduction

More often than not they’re the signal that it’s actually begun

Again I can see this clearly... if she wasn't interested she could always just walk away. The fact that she's talking to me at all means she's waiting for something to happen, but she wants to see what I've got.

This is very helpful stuff, thanks a lot @TomInHo. I see a lot of the material we've discussed from later phases of the date as fixable: Once we've established a line of communication, I can learn to take into account the differences in how women and men see the world, and through a combination of being a little more bold, a little more insightful, and a little more innovative, I am sure that I can make progress.

What I am not so sure about is how to fix the high attrition rate at the very beginning. Of course, not everyone will be compatible (that's one reason why I find dating apps so useless) but at an in-person encounter it is typically possible for me to have a sense of which women will get along with me well (although they may be married, otherwise taken, or not looking—just a cost of doing business in day game).

Yet I often go off track right at the start, despite getting a warm reception. To take an example from less than a year ago, I remember locking eyes a few times with a girl in her early 30s at the departure gate of a flight. When we arrived at our destination, I caught up with her as we walked toward the baggage hall and asked whether she lived in Vienna or was en route to another destination. She asked me to repeat myself (maybe my German had gotten a bit rusty) so I did, and she smiled and said "No, I live in Vienna", and after that I didn't know what to say (or do?—how much emphasis should be placed on actions rather than words?) so I politely wished her a safe journey home, and exited the interaction. I find this type of thing hard to judge. I enjoy making the approach but making meaningful conversation is quite difficult for the first few moments.

Is it just a matter of increasing the volume of interactions? I know you said that it was a bit of a numbers game:

You just keep going and collecting more leads because even though same fall off some also stick

...but it would be great if I could develop a solid methodology for improving retention at this early phase in the interaction, since I can see that the girl likes me, I obviously like her, and despite the clear tension in the air I often can't find a way to get down to business.