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FR  Resurrected Candle Girl - My 1st Day Game Date

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
315
So, a first for me. I got a date by walking up to a girl as a total stranger in a shopping mall. Every other date I've ever had was at least mildly helped by some social network.

Mind you, it sort of violated "move fast", albeit not in a needy, clingy way. This was a girl I met a few months ago who had two days later been keen to meet. I missed the opportunity and the next day got a fateful wall of text suggesting "you should have met me while I was in the mood." No answer after four texts over the next days and weeks, so I wrote her off.

Technically I should've posted to the original FR, but could use feedback and the original story may not be that relevant. (Was likely my most well-executed daygame approach, even to date.)

If you're in a hurry, I underlined the most important uncertainties.


ch. I: The Resurrection

I now contact difficult girls right while looking for new girls, as a reminder that she's not the only girl on the planet. So here I was, in a mall, in the midst of another failed attempt to get Cherelle back out, when I decided, on a whim, to take a pot shot on Tanika after over 3 months of radio silence:
Wed.
6:32pm: Me:
Hey hey Tanika.. was browsing scented candles and remembered u... u still sellin that stuff?

6:37pm: Her: Heyy!! Yeahhh I do, I'm about to leave my house to go to [that store] in the next 20mins, what kinda sc noted candles are you looking at?
6:37pm: Her: What kind of scented candles ***

[To answer, I had to slip over to the spot where I had the other day opened some girl browsing candles.]

6:55pm: Me: Warm apple pie tealights... smell nyce! How's ur schedule(s) these days?

7:22pm: Her: Ouu niceee, not sure if we have something similar to that. [...Some employee-mode stuff I ignored...] And my schedules are alllllll over the place, usually working 2 or 3 jobs in the same day. The next couple days I'm doing all 3 in the same day 7am-10am then 11:30-5:30 then 7pm to 12am

7:32pm: Me: OMG haha when do u sleep??

8:42pm: Her: Lool at night! Usually within an hour of getting home or so
8:43pm: Her: But it's not alwaayyyyss like that like yesterday I was done my day by 1:30 pm most times I'm done by like 5pm depending on the day
8:51pm: Her: What do you do for work?

9:00pm: Me: Starting a biz for creative media... so my schedule is *usually* flexible. How is ur weekend?

9:12pm: Her: Ouuuu that sounds interesting
9:17pm: Her: And it was good it was pretty chill for me, I didn't do much besides get out to see a movie with one of my girl friends. Worked most of the weekend, only had Saturday off but I dodged a bullet by staying home literally.. I got invited to go to [a night club] for some day party and I didn't go but there was a triple shooting there... :/ so yeah rest of the weekend I literally just hung out at home and worked some hours to get that time and a half and smoked a blunt that got me way to [sic] high so I went to sleep lol, saw a peak [sic] of [a local activity] though
9:17pm: Her: Hby?

9:45pm: Me: Haha caught [the same local activity] without bullets! Pretty chill though basically. So how far in advance do u know ur schedules?

9:45pm: Her: Yeaa! & I know usually about a week ahead
I left it there. I was going to write her the next morning but she beat me to it!
Thu.
10:55am: Her:
Have a great day today! Goodmorning :)

11:02am: Me: Good morning Tanika. So, what hours are u working this weekend?

11:08am: Her: Pretty sure I am off this Saturday forsure! Sunday I work 7am to 10am then 4pm to 8pm. What about yourself?

11:34am: Me: I'm mostly free on Saturday. Let's grab a coffee or something! Can u make it to [ebonics nickname for my suburb]?

11:43am: Her: Nice okay! And yeah I would like that, & I more than likely can yeah.
11:46am: Her: It's a bit of a distance kind of, so I mentally get lazy about the bus but it could work most likely. I've been in an energetic mood most of the week, but what do you do when you aren't working? In other words do you have any hobbies? , do you go to the gym or sketch or idk Netflix and chill, what's your free time look like on a normal day

12:11pm: Me: We'll talk about that (; If ur still at [midtown intersection] it's literally one bus. Just get on the [bus which passes that intersection] and get off at [big street]. There's a mall right there, [bla], we can meet in!
I was actually taken aback by "Netflix and chill". I am sort of under the impression that's a codeword for hookup. Was this girl suggesting a hookup herself?

I almost answered "Come and find out (;", but I was a bit scared to. I wonder if I ought to have instead gotten more suggestive, though I'm not sure how I'd have done so adroitly.

When at first she didn't answer, I was almost certain that my "talk" remark had come across as weak and unsexy and that I had blown this.

3:10pm: Her: Ayee okayy! That seems pretty simple!

4:38pm: Me: Ok! Let's shoot for 2pm
Nothing further.

Come Friday, a snag:
Fri.
5:15pm: Her:
Hey! I wouldn't be able to make it. I got a shift I took 7am - 10am and then 4pm-8pm
5:15pm: Her: I also work Sunday 7am - 10am but gonna try and see my grandma and take her to bingo for 1pm
5:15pm: Her: Maybe Sunday after I'm done we can reschedule for?

5:30pm: Me: Depends... what time will u be free by?

5:35pm: Her: I should be free no later than 4pm or so. I assume

7:04pm: Me: Ok, I think we can manage that, but you'll get to buy me a beverage then!
That's my usual strategy when a girl proposes a specific reschedule: accept, because it's a known-good day, but slap her wrist, because I'm not a pushover.

That worked with Cherelle, who was totally game and treated me without even a reminder, but Tanika's a different person. I think less cocky and more sensitive. (I like Cherelle a lot more, mentally and physically, but alas blew that.) So I wonder if I put off Tanika here. But I didn't want to just roll over like a lost puppy - doing so has never gotten me anywhere with girls.

She didn't answer that evening, and we were both silent on Saturday.


ch. II: Near Damnation

I had a problem. The nearby mall closes 5pm on Sunday, hosing my original plan of meeting there for coffee and then walking the girl to my home. No other coffee shops are a short walk. There are fast food places and small restaurants close by, but meeting in those for coffee seems strange, and I didn't want to get into a food date.

(In retrospect, food dates may be ok if I'm careful to not pay; worked fine with Camilliah, who paid without my asking and then invited herself home; but Cammie isn't exactly struggling.)

I finally went with a little bar I never go to that's on the same block as my home.
Sun.
10:27am: Me:
Morning Tanika! Mall is closed at 5pm so when u come just stay on a few more stops to [street] and there's a place there called [silly name]. Bet u $10 I will b the only mofo in a red bandana (; [I throw that in for old contacts in case she doesn't remember my mug.]

10:33am: Her: Oh mannn I meant to say I'm gonna have to reschedule
10:33am: Her: I work 8-11am and then 4pm-8pm
10:33am: Her: Didn't realize I'm working all weekend my mistakkkeee
10:33am: Her: I'm not even going to bingo either

10:38am: Her: How close do you live to the location
Now I'm confused. At first I'm thinking, "ok, lovely, another flake out", but the last text almost sounds like she's trying to work out logistics for after work.

I was a bit nervous to let on to my proximity, but fuck it, I can't lie:
10:45am: Me: It's like a block away

10:45am: Her: You drive?

10:47am: Her: [address of the bar]
10:47am: Her: This is the address for the place right?

10:57am: Me: Yup that's the place!

11:03am: Her: And you drive is that right?

11:06am: Me: Mostly work from home so don't drive a.t.m. But we could meet near u if it works better... I don't know ur area tho so u'd have 2 suggest a place

11:21am: Her: [screenshot of route, incidentally with her exact address, with a 26 min. route by car selected, and listing 1h by bus]
11:22am: Her: Doesn't even matter if you drive tbh... I'm just thinking cause the place is about an hour from me. & you mention it being a block away from you so why don't we meet somewhere more half way? Is that an option or [sic] you, or would you rather stay in [suburb]..?

[My head still spinning, she texts me again:]

11:43am: Her: Okay that's totally okay you don't drive but a block away is closer than an hour bus and now that I think about it I'm not interested in meeting today, maybe another time and since we are both bussing we can meet half way for the next time if there is a next time
Holy fucking God, that went south fast... "if there is a next time" ... ?!?! ... I wasn't feeling this vibe at all! To be honest, I'm almost confused at the fact that I finally got her out... I was almost certain we were done! In part, this is why I got so bold in pushing her to meet anyway - some instinct was telling me that if it didn't happen today it probably wasn't going to.

Her response made me immediatey regret explaining why I don't drive, as it seems to have come across as defensive. (That, or she was afraid she'd come across as a materialistic bitch...) I just didn't want to give the false picture of being some loser who spends an hour or two on busses every weekday... in truth, I bus like once in two months.

(These creatures may just force me to get driving - a horribly inconvenient proposition. Our strict permit procedures take a year and also require being accompanied by a fully permitted driver in the meantime - not easy for me, - and also require access to a vehicle which you ironically can't buy or rent because you're not fully permitted... and after all that mess I'm uncertain I'll even be living in this country in a year, so, um, yeah....)

I also didn't like this meeting half way business. Especially with her schedule, that would make a pull more difficult.


ch. III: Redemption

11:53am: Me: I was gonna say, I have a few things I need to look for downtown at some point anyway so I could do that & then meet up there if it's easier, but if ur not up to it, it's all good

11:57am: Her: Yeah forsure just let me know whenever you get to that point

12:22pm: Me: Ok. (Heck I could even do it today, but the only thing is I prolly wouldn't be done until evening so it would have to be after ur 2nd shift)

3:38pm: Her: Okay just update me then. I just woke up from a nap not long ago and got ready for work sorry for the late reply. I haven't been getting much sleep this weekend
Déjà vu. Like our first SMS convo months before, there was now deep ambiguity as to whether we had a meeting today.

I decided to take a chance and just wind up downtown and try to get her out then and there. Going downtown just for an unconfirmed meet would've been pretty bad for my frame, but I had a solution. With the good weather, I'd been wanting to try street game, but my suburb is too spread out for it to be efficient compared with malls. By contrast, downtown has retail-dense streets with tons of foot traffic. This was a good excuse to finally hit them.

I didn't even answer. I just prepped, took off, and texted her once down there:
7:03pm: Me: Np. Ended up running an errand @ [downtown street]. Shit it's nice out!

7:43pm: Her: Yeah it's super nice

7:51pm: Me: I believe there's a [coffee chain] at [her intersection].... I could prolly get there 830 or so.. what do you say we meet there!
Alas, I got downtown late enough that I didn't get much time to just wander or maximize my time in the best areas.

I'd placed myself a fair ways from her midtown neighbourhood, partly to not seem intentional but also because there'd be more foot traffic in the downtown core. I was hoping to know quickly whether it was on with her or not, so I could either just stay down there or travel up to her.

But texting dragged on enough that I had to start walking towards midtown to shorten the trip if she later agreed, especially given underground closures.
8:14pm: Her: I'm only just leaving work now. I won't make it there for 8:30

8:20pm: Me: Prolly can't get there that fast now myself cuz I was just hanging out... what time is good?

8:25pm: Her: Maybe about like 9
8:25pm: Her: Or 9:15
8:25pm: Her: I'm walking my co worker to [a hospital]

8:27pm: Me: Ok perfect I can take my time then!

8:38pm: Her: Okay!
Incidentally, this meant I could actually walk to the date spot, mainly due to planning ahead.

The scenery was nice but, being a bona fide melanin addict, the girls bored me stiff. In the whole 5.4mi/8.7km walk through parts of downtown and to the midtown date spot, I only saw like 4 black girls, two of whom were together. So, no approaches in spite of our temporarily beautiful weather. (Now you see why I want to move to Nairobi or Kampala? Lol.)

I got to the coffee shop with just enough time before 9pm to freshen up and get settled in. Then Tanika hit me with this:
9:04pm: Her: You can take all the time you need. I got dinner to make and laundry to finish up so just let me know if it's till [sic] a thing or if it's a flop.
Holy God are most girls this fickle and moody? I'm really not used to this, the few I've dealt with having either been tomboys or else just otherwise really chill and/or relatively unemotional. ("Girly" girls aren't my thing.)

9:07pm: Me: Am here now.. can u make it still?

9:07pm: Her: I'm still omw back

[We work out logistics and, after a bit of confusion, she shows up just after 9:30pm]


ch. IV: Communion

Unfortunately I had to choose the date spot blindly. Most seating was only face to face. But there was a counter along the front window with tall chairs; I strongly prefer sitting beside the girl, so I sat there before she arrived.

Despite the cheeky subtitle, she in fact didn't grab herself anything, and I wasn't about to offer. That's the 2nd coffee date I've had where the girl didn't actually have coffee or anything else for that matter. Is this bad? LOL.

The girl's demeanour was different than I remembered or from texts. Now in person she was much lower energy, quiet, and reserved. Perhaps just tired from constant work. She did seem a bit frazzled, and mentioned her tiredness.

Recalling Seppuku's method, early on I asked Tanika how much time she had. She had to get going at 10pm and it was now 9:30pm! Ha, ha, ha. Well, ok, between this, her overall low energy, her practically living for her jobs which she'd likely have again in the morning, my having little excuse to get into her home and mine being way too far, and a hunch that she may not live alone, I decided that trying to pull tonight was likely futile. In part due to this, I didn't really get suggestive with touch; I did touch her, but more just to establish comfort for next time.

Didn't manage to sit as closely to her as I'd have liked. The default placement of the chairs put a good 18" between us. I'd have liked to close most of this, but putting my chair so close from that default would have, at least to me, felt gamey and trying too hard. I did pull my chair closer a couple times, but at the end we were still nearly 12" apart. I'd have much preferred a bench, where you can inch closer without making a production of it.

Her body language seemed a little closed off. Both elbows were on the counter with the forearms up. She accepted touch but she never touched back.

Verbally she was personable, though. I deep dove her, plus a little random chit-chat here and there. Conversation itself went fairly well. She probably did 70% or more of the talking.

She shared a fair bit, but there was one point where she said that something - I don't even remember what - was not something she shares on a first meeting. I may not have even asked her, but simply looked at her to continue when she had said something that led to it. When she didn't want to share that I just changed topics.

I shared a bit, but not nearly as much. Probably did a decent job remaining a little mysterious. I did show a few pics of my helping with and being in the Caribbean events. She's not very involved in that, but liked the pics.

One problem I had sitting beside her was something that also happened with Cherelle. She mostly just faced and looked forwards, while I was somewhat pointed along a diagonal half-way towards her, and was generally looking at her. I find it really strange and awkward to not look at someone I'm sitting and speaking with. My looking at her while she was not looking at me almost felt like I was gaming her. But I think not looking would have been strange and also would have curtailed any physical touching. How is this supposed to go?

There were a couple high points where she put her head forwards and low to the counter and turned to look at me with a smile. Maybe I should have used these points to escalate, but apart from being unsure of myself, I didn't really know how. Her hair was tied back, so brushing or playing with it was out. Maybe I should have stroked the side of her face.

I did touch at points but nothing really romantic or prolonged. Touched the closer arm or shoulder sometimes. Once, a hand on her back, and once grabbed near both elbows. (All clothed.) Touched her ear when noticing an earring. And her far wrist when noticing a bracelet. Briefly ran a finger along the pulled-tight hair when it came up in conversation.

I would've liked to escalate more but it somehow felt out of place. A little different than with Cherelle, where I had felt like I should be escalating but just didn't have the balls or know how. With Tanika, it felt more like escalating may have been out of place. Almost like passing up a perfectly good chance to open a girl vs. not opening a girl on her phone in a heated conversation.

There were one or two lulls in the conversation, and I totally forgot to try holding the tension and looking at her sexually instead of releasing it by starting a new thread. I find that happens a lot: I'll want to try something, but forget all about it in the moment. I still don't do enough interactions and tend to be too "in my head" to remember intended experiments a lot of the time.

I wouldn't call my body language terrible, but could certainly have been more sexy.

I found myself smiling a fair bit, but a kind of restrained, closed mouth smile. Would've been better shifted to one side. I also found myself laughing here and there; not in a "that's so funny" way, or in a nervous way, but more in a knowing way. These weren't consciously intentional.

Sought excuses to get into her home, but answers were unhelpful. No crazy items at home. Not much creative stuff; drawings, but she downplayed them. Forgot to try pets, but doubt it. I gave up here. I had rum on me, but proposing to go back to hers for a drink seemed a little forward when she likely wasn't fully into me yet, and it didn't even come to mind.

Fairly early on, I'd mentioned my creative works briefly. She showed some interest, so I suggested she should come out to see. She was a little ambivalent, expressing this being a possibility but at once also complaining that she doesn't usually travel for people any more, and went into a piece about how she used to do too much for people. (In retrospect, her frame here was that she'd be doing me a favour by visiting - a frame I should have broken.)

I expected her to cut things off around 10pm, and near that point I distracted myself a bit with my phone. We talked a bit more and she made some gentle suggestion of having to go soon.

She also said something about, if I had've picked another day, we could've chilled longer.

I wanted to sell her more on coming over to my place next time, so I brought back up the creative works and went into a bit more detail. She seemed a little more interested, and this time when I suggested she should come over some time to see, she was a little more positive and didn't bring up the travel issue.

With that out of the way and her seeming a little anxious to leave, I gestured towards leaving and remarked that I'd need to get going, too.

She proposed we walk to the corner together. I was ostensibly taking a bus from there and she going to pick up ground beef. It was well under a block, and we conversed idly.

We were coming from the south on the east side, and at the south side of the corner, she just continued towards the north side. I stopped, and when she saw this, she said something like, "I guess you're catching the bus over there," pointing to the southwest corner, and turned to face me. We said our parting greetings, I reached for her hand and we did the hand between fingers and thumb thing briefly, and then she left to the north.

I halfways wonder if I should've just went with her! But I'm not sure how that would've worked.


ch. V: Revelations

I find it interesting that I got her to meet in spite of her moody "not interested in meeting today" remark. This taught me something important - the ability to blast through her uncertainty and get her to do something, without even having to pester her, instead simply acting on the assumption that she'll comply.

There are two possible takes on what I did:

  1. It was dumb to push for a date I knew might be tough to end in a sex location, and I should've just bided my time until I could get her out on more favourable terms (as tricky as her lifestyle and moods make this); or

  2. I did the right thing by pushing forward anyway, so as to not allow her negative compliance to stack up (i.e., "the guy I keep declining/flaking on") or complacence with my current role (i.e., "the guy who is my text buddy"), and to show her that I make things happen.
Part of me wonders if I didn't escalate enough, but we were only together for a total of 40 min., and I'm under the impression you need a couple hours. From that I'm guessing that I was right to not push to go home with her, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks I ideally should have been able to.


ch. VI: The Second Coming

So, now what?

The girl typically works 7 days/wk. The odd day she might be off very early, but it seems she typically works late enough that she may not be too keen on two hour-long bus rides to visit me.

I could wait until she has a day off or finishes early afternoon. This may make it more likely to get her to come out, but I don't know when such a chance will come, which might violate "move fast". Worse, my having to repeatedly ask her schedules might risk my becoming "that guy I'm always putting off", cementing negative compliance or at least making me seem needy.

Another option is to try to get to her place on a day she gets off at a reasonable time. Such days are more plentiful, so that minimizes the negative compliance stacking risk.

I could ask her if she has a TV. She probably does, and if so, I can put some stuff on a laptop and wire it up to her TV.

That does leave some questions:

  • Do I just ask her for the TV by text and suggest meeting directly at her home? Or try to meet again close to her home and then bring it up during the date? On one hand, inviting myself to her home after a 40 min. meet that didn't do any real escalating could be premature, but on the other hand, part of me thinks she's actually more liable to go for that than another idle coffee date. Tough call for me without a lot of data points.

  • Do I seduce her before or after fiddling with her TV? (That sentence in isolation is hilarious!) I strongly suspect "before", but I don't want it to look like I was making up the whole thing just to get in her panties. (Is that even bad? lol) I guess I could pull out the machine and put it on her table, but then stop and chill and talk to her and try to escalate unless she gets uptight to connect it, lol. (Wow, typing this has helped a lot!)

OMG you're still reading? Thank you!
 

Seppuku

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
1,149
Alright Phoenix!

Indeed, you managed to get a date from cold approach, and that's an achievement. Congrats!

That was for the positive news. Now, let's review the "to be improved" side.

0. It started well, your texting out of the blue was well received, she even initiated text the next morning. All good signs. It's most likely a sign that she doesn't have a major dick in her landscape at the moment, and considers yours a suitable candidate. You text her and somehow in the convo you get a subliminal message "Netflix and chill". If your intuition tells you something (hinting at a hookup), it is probably true. I advise you to listen to your intuition and go bolder. You have nothing to lose, go ahead and try! Here is what I would have done:

Her: [...] , do you go to the gym or sketch or idk Netflix and chill, what's your free time look like on a normal day
Me: Netflix and chill? (WINK EMOJI)
Her: Hahahaha
Me: Me? No I don't do that!
Her: ??? (whatever)
Me: I do Red wine and chill instead. Do you like red wine?
Her: yeah!
Me: That can be arranged!
etc...

Now, you can still go ahead and propose a meeting near your place. You now have the perfect excuse to pull her home after an hour of face to face.

1. You had a deal to meet her on Sunday at 2pm. It would have been near your place, with plenty of time to actually work your magic. Instead, she replaced your deal, with another: meet her at 9:30pm after a long day, far away from your place, with 30 minutes to work your magic. She derailed your plan, and you let her derail it. It is a massive loss of frame.

This is why I normally advise to always do the dates on your terms; then never change the terms of the deal once they have been agreed. Girls will never make it easy for you; moreover they have no understanding of the logistics part of the seduction process. This is not their realm. They just show up, hoping some Prince will swipe them on their feet, with little consideration for the practical aspects. If the Prince can't swipe them on their feet, they don't care that the logistics was wrong, it will just be the Prince's fault.

So I would normally advise to stand firm on the initial deal, or simply re-schedule. HOWEVER in your case, what you really need at this stage is to gather data points on your learning curve. What you really need now, is to go on as many dates as you can, to learn how it goes, gain the confidence and try new things, see what works, see what doesn't. I wasted myself many dates in my first year of learning all this. But it was a necessary learning curve. You need your own learning curve. And, like you said, you did learn a couple of things from this indeed.

2. The date itself was too short to build a real connection. 40 minutes! You can *maybe* succeed in this short timing if you're experienced, very sexy vibe, and with good logistics in support. I am usually more around 2 to 3 hours of face time before a pull. (Mind you, these days I enjoy taking my time).

3. Body language closed? She doesn't touch back? well, that happens. In this case, you pull back, stop touching, lean back a little, reorient yourself away from her. It's like breaking physical rapport. Then focus on the deep diving. Make her speak, and speak more. Show genuine interest, show that you understand her. That will earn you many points. When you feel more comfort from her, then try touching again.

4. Transportation. You really need to come up with a solution. If you have to pull home through half an hour of bus transportation, I guarantee that she will be cold by the time you arrive at home. It's counterproductive. If you can't get a license and car for yourself, then try getting a deal with a taxi driver. Or whatever, but do something here!

There are two possible takes on what I did:

1. It was dumb to push for a date I knew might be tough to end in a sex location, and I should've just bided my time until I could get her out on more favourable terms (as tricky as her lifestyle and moods make this); or

2. I did the right thing by pushing forward anyway, so as to not allow her negative compliance to stack up (i.e., "the guy I keep declining/flaking on") or complacence with my current role (i.e., "the guy who is my text buddy"), and to show her that I make things happen.

I would normally say, answer is 1. Within 2, you could have avoided negative compliance by being the one withdrawing the deal for a new schedule. But I think you do not get enough dates, so at your stage you were right to just go and try.

From that I'm guessing that I was right to not push to go home with her, but I'd be interested to hear if anyone thinks I ideally should have been able to.
It was late, she had a long day, she had things to do at home (or so she said...). But most importantly, you didn't have enough rapport and comfort and sexy vibe going on, plus a major blow in your frame by letting her derail your plan. I think you did right by calling it a night.


For the rest, I let you figure out how to get her on another date.

Cheers,
Seppuku
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
315
Seppuku, thank you for the feedback!

Seppuku said:
You text her and somehow in the convo you get a subliminal message "Netflix and chill". If your intuition tells you something (hinting at a hookup), it is probably true.
I think it still needs to sink in more, just how sexual women can be.. it's an eye-opener to see such a strong hint! Too bad in the moment I wasn't that confident to jump on it.

Seppuku said:
Me: Me? No I don't do that!
Her: ??? (whatever)
Me: I do Red wine and chill instead. Do you like red wine?
This is genius! I wish I'd think of stuff like that! I can be clever in other contexts, so probably I will be able to once my brain is more used to being sexual.

Seppuku said:
Instead, she replaced your deal, with another: meet her at 9:30pm after a long day, far away from your place, with 30 minutes to work your magic. She derailed your plan, and you let her derail it. It is a massive loss of frame.
Well, we broke each other's frames... her's on Sunday had been "we're not meeting today", but she hinted weakness, which I jumped on so as to not let her cancel a second time. But in doing so I also compromised my plans.

Seppuku said:
This is why I normally advise to always do the dates on your terms; then never change the terms of the deal once they have been agreed. Girls will never make it easy for you; moreover they have no understanding of the logistics part of the seduction process.
Yeah, I probably should have stuck to having her come out. In this case it was going to be a second cancellation from her if I didn't try different terms, and I was scared that two cancels in a row out of her would make a future date much harder to get, especially with her schedule. In principle I should not have cared - if she won't come out it is her loss, and I made the mistake of looking at it as my loss. But as you point out I also should balance that viewpoint with at least getting dates at this stage.

At first she seemed alright (but not eager) with coming by bus. But after a couple work-related cancels she grew lazy. Maybe the cancels created in her mind a pattern of non-compliance which made it harder for her to justify the bus. I hope I am wrong that events which are her fault (like her having to work unexpectedly) can get projected onto you in her mind like that!

Seppuku said:
Body language closed? She doesn't touch back? well, that happens.
Was her looking forwards a lot of the time part of this? Or is that just a usual thing when sitting beside a woman? It made me feel the investment was imbalanced.

Seppuku said:
In this case, you pull back, stop touching, lean back a little, reorient yourself away from her. It's like breaking physical rapport. Then focus on the deep diving.
Yes, I should have made a point to break rapport... not something that comes very naturally when you don't yet have a lot of success.

But does this mean you're conversing and showing interest verbally while you're turned away and presumably not looking at her? It seems a bit like the body language and verbals have to become incongruent with each other here...

Seppuku said:
Transportation. You really need to come up with a solution. If you have to pull home through half an hour of bus transportation, I guarantee that she will be cold by the time you arrive at home. It's counterproductive. If you can't get a license and car for yourself, then try getting a deal with a taxi driver. Or whatever, but do something here!
I researched and found out that the process for getting a license in Kenya is not nearly as drawn out as it is here. There, I could potentially be driving in under 2 months. So, between the fact that in Nairobi, (i) I would probably approach many more women per week than I do now, and (ii) I would probably be able to drive a lot sooner, moving there for a while is really tempting!

It's a tough decision because there are very compelling reasons both for and against. IF I can get my approach numbers up in my own city AND not have too many dates go south from not driving, then I would probably be better off to put off going until some future point when it is more convenient. But those are big "ifs"! I might post on this later.

However, with Tanika, poor logistics are partly because a few months ago my approach anxiety was so incredibly strong that I couldn't push myself to approach girls any closer than half way across the city!! So I met her in a large mall downtown, whereas I live in a suburb some distance from downtown. These days I unfortunately still can't approach women in my immediate neighbourhood, where the logistics would be ideal (and there are many black girls), but I at least have become brave enough to do most approaches in a large mall a 40 min. walk from me. Hopefully girls I meet in that mall will have better logistics, although on average that probably just means they'd be a 30 min. bus trip from me vs. the hour long one Tanika is.

Seppuku said:
Within 2, you could have avoided negative compliance by being the one withdrawing the deal for a new schedule.
I'm not sure how I would have done that in this case. On Thursday the more-or-less agreement had been Saturday (2pm although she didn't confirm the time). She cancelled that outright on Friday, proposing Sunday instead, which I accepted on terms that still would have worked well. But then come Sunday, she initially tried to cancel outright. So if I had've "cancelled" Sunday, that would actually just have been letting her cancel it, which would have been the second time she cancelled in a row.

The only way *I* could've cancelled would have been, when she said she couldn't do 8:30pm and I asked when she could make it, and she said 9pm or 9:15pm, I then say that's too late. But cancelling over a 30 minute difference seems a bit artificial... Or maybe, when I proposed 8:30pm and she said she couldn't make it by that time, I just say "ok, we'll do another time then." But even in that case, it would have been mainly her doing the refusing (refusing the proposed 8:30pm).

Seems like I could not win any which way! lol.

She's not responsive now so far, so I'll probably have better luck with new girls.

Cheers,
Phoenix
 

Seppuku

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
1,149
Hey Phoenix,

I think it still needs to sink in more, just how sexual women can be.. it's an eye-opener to see such a strong hint! Too bad in the moment I wasn't that confident to jump on it.
Get used to women's covert way of communication. That's how they convey sexuality. They just can't go and say "I want to fuck". Well, most of them anyways. That would be slutty and they need to keep their own good girl self image. So, they communicate the same, in an indirect way. It is amazing to see, once you get used to it.

I had a moment of realization in 2015, when I took a woman on a formal dinner date (yes, I was still doing that against my better knowledge). She was keeping mentioning about going to a "private place". The stupid me kept on with my date idea. We had the dinner, a very uncomfortable time with a lot of people around watching us, no privacy. And she kept on mentioning a "private place". An inner voice finally told me "man you've got to listen to what she is really saying!". Couldn't get her at home (my kids there), so I drove and parked in a discreet, dark parking place. She literally jumped at my cock and sucked me. That what happens when you start paying attention. But it still took me more similar lessons before I *really* got it.

If you show that you understand what she really means, you are scoring a million points towards displaying yourself as a sexual man. In fact, when she sees that you are not getting it she starts labeling you more as the BF kind. Lovers *do* understand covert communication.

Once more, my advice is to listen to what your intuition is telling you. It's probably true. Then jump on it! It is even easier in a texting context when you have some time to craft your answer! In addition to that, use and abuse sexual innuendos, and do a lot of teasing. That's how you portray yourself as a sexual man.

For that, I love Franco, from francoseduction.com (well, no offense to our Franco, I like him too ;-). In the Manual of Seduction he writes:
Franco said:
"In words, actions and omissions I speak, move and behave in such a way that I never ask for forgiveness about my personality and my sexual desire as a male. I am an impudent individual"
Read this sentence every morning. Let it sink.

Last thoughts, you may have received all the crap (her moving the date and reducing it to a 40 minutes quick late meet), because you didn't seem to understand her (her hints at sexuality like Netflix and chill). That's what you usually get when you fail her tests.

Regarding the other items, what I usually say is:
  • You always need to be willing to let her go. That's the condition for outcome independence;
  • Date on your terms, or not at all. Reschedule the moment she starts giving some crap.

But again, in your case, what you need is more, more dates. So it's ok to bend the rules above. By the way you need to get into a routine of two or three dates per month at least. Go, give it all you can, but don't be scared of failing the dates. You need your own data points!

OK, cheers man!
Seppuku
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
315
Hey Seppuku,

"In words, actions and omissions I speak, move and behave in such a way that I never ask for forgiveness about my personality and my sexual desire as a male. I am an impudent individual"
I love this! I can be impudent in other domains... so with the right experiences I'm sure this will awaken in me. It's just the initial flushing out of the dysfunctional conditioning that is a big challenge.

Seppuku said:
Last thoughts, you may have received all the crap (her moving the date and reducing it to a 40 minutes quick late meet), because you didn't seem to understand her (her hints at sexuality like Netflix and chill).
I was afraid of that. It's worse when you actually do understand her on some level but your brain just won't let you fully believe it!

In a way it is similar to what I experience in the mall. The other day I spent hours in the mall and chickened out on every single girl I wanted to approach. I knew what I wanted to do and I knew I should do it, but there was just this mental force field around the girl I couldn't seem to drive myself through at all on that day. (But on the occasion before it, I twice broke my modest record for approaches. I think my chickening out was because I had just read an article about PUAs being kicked out of a mall and a woman quoted in the article about being made uncomfortable... the brain seems to internalize negativity way too easily.)

Seppuku said:
By the way you need to get into a routine of two or three dates per month at least.
That's very useful to know! Because I know how many approaches it has taken me per date, so I also know how many approaches I need to be doing. Which is unfortunately about 5 times more than I do right now!!! So I am in the process of working out how I am going to improve that, of three main options:

  • make myself 5 times less likely to chicken out on approaching any given cute black girl - but I don't know how;
  • spend 5 times more time in day game - not very efficient and would require me to optimize other areas of life a lot better than I do; or
  • make cute black girls 10 times more common (i.e., move), to lower pre-approach search time as well as to not see them as a scarce resource.
I'm still working on it, but (i) is frustratingly hard, (ii) is a little hard to push myself to do when I feel like I am fishing a depleted fishery with a half-broken net, and (iii) is very attractive but has risks and requires attention to many, many things. Once the weather here gets crappy, doing a sturdy analysis of (iii) will be my priority, maybe with some on-line thrown in as a last-ditch effort in this city.


Thanks again for the excellent feedback!

Phoenix
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers
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