Seduction = Doing Less, Not More.

[rr2021 aka DEVENCI]

Sleazy's secret was that he was the most patient seducer on the planet. He would wait for the right girls, approach at the right moment, and if it wasn't there, he would create it but he would take the time he need!

People believe Sleazy just went over to girls and just cavemanned them. True his interactions were usually short. But where he spent most of his time, was all the "pre-work" prior to his approach.

can you please explain what you mean by this

He would wait for the right girls, approach at the right moment, and if it wasn't there, he would create it but he would take the time he need!

how would you describe the right girl?

when is the right moment?

and what do you mean by "he would create it, if it was not there?"

do you mind explaining these aspects in autistic step by step detail?

i think that would be very helpful for guys like me who are more comfortable with physical game.

 

[Mr Mistah]

his main tool against ASD was.... isolation and discret isolation (like most physical gamers).

Ah but IME ASD can even occur when its just you and the girl are alone then she gives you heavy resistance

Are we saying that this is one of the drawbacks of physical game? Not being able to sufficiently set proper frames to counter things like ASD?

Can you communicate sexual prizing using physical game similar to what we do using sex talk?

i have done BOTH the last 5 years or so, before that the screening, and micro escalations and yes a lot of my lays are none verbal saying almost nothing, just like 60 describes... the thing is, you can not really put on lay reports for obvious reasons, there is nothing to teach... again, this style of game may come back, clubs are getting super physical like back then

Pardon me Skills but I feel like I have to make the distinction btwn Sleazy Caveman physical game vs 60s Slow burn Physical Game.

Sleazy's game seems to be the one that's dominant at the clubs and in the link Teevster attached Sleazy even says his physical club game antics would never fly during daygame.

Whenever he(Teevster) gave his crash course in “sexology” that night the girls were completely fascinated.

I made a note and thought I better start talking to some girls instead of feeling them up first as I could see the benefits of his approach.

Also, the Sleazy» Rockstar probably would get arrested if he tried any of his club shticks in day game.

Have you ever run this type of physical game outside a club setting i.e day game? How did that turn out?

 

[Skills]

Ah but IME ASD can even occur when its just you and the girl are alone then she gives you heavy resistance

Are we saying that this is one of the drawbacks of physical game? Not being able to sufficiently set proper frames to counter things like ASD?

Can you communicate sexual prizing using physical game similar to what we do using sex talk?

Pardon me Skills but I feel like I have to make the distinction btwn Sleazy Caveman physical game vs 60s Slow burn Physical Game.

Sleazy's game seems to be the one that's dominant at the clubs and in the link Teevster attached Sleazy even says his physical club game antics would never fly during daygame.


Have you ever run this type of physical game outside a club setting i.e day game? How did that turn out?

Dude sleazy,cosy, illuminatus, 60, teevester were from the same crew for a while...at that time physical game and screening was big, this was pre tinder, tough teevester always did sex talk too.... 60 and sleazy no much difference 60 is just more complete in some of his teachings, sleazy water down cause he went through a puahate period.. i done 60yoc in day game naturally, did not know who 60 was, but in day game u have to minimally banter, though my first pull to sex from day game i did no speak much at all... But yeah u can do in day game, but a bit of banter... though now a days lower odds...gll/scotty did this day game.... evilstiffler similar, scotty from gll etc.. very physical minimal banter but this is 2010 stuff now a days lower odds if u dont learn verbals... A lot of the stuff i post in ss is similar but more adapted to 2023...Again a disclaimer as of late in clubs physical making a comeback..

 

[rr2021 aka DEVENCI]

Have you ever run this type of physical game outside a club setting i.e day game? How did that turn out?

haha this brings back memories.

during my retarded RSD days when i was under 21 and not going to clubs...

RSD used to have this thing they said that the only difference between daygame and nightgame was the sun...

i had this 30 day period where i was doing RSD style stuff during the day.....i cannot believe i was retarded enough to do that stuff now

but on serious note there was a guy named goodlooking loser who probably did the most physical stuff ever during the day n the history of the community...so try to find his stuff if you are interested in physical stuff during the day

EDIT: btw, i would NOT reccomend doing physical stuff during the day in 2023 and goodlookingloser has said in recent interview that if he was gaming now he would not even touch girls at all during the day. so yeah be careful with physical stuff during the day in 2023.

 

[Mr Mistah]

But yeah u can do in day game, but a bit of banter... though now a days lower odds

i would NOT reccomend doing physical stuff during the day in 2023

Why is this the case?

Are girls less receptive to touch in 2023?

I actually find that they are more touchy feely these days post-pandemic.

Past weekend I met one who wouldn't let me have my personal space for even 5 minutes. Her hands were perpetually wrapped around me like an octopus. Kept telling me that I'm "hot" (literally hot) as she siphoned away my body heat during the cold night lmao.

 

[rr2021 aka DEVENCI]

Why is this the case?

Are girls less receptive to touch in 2023?

I actually find that they are more touchy feely these days post-pandemic.

Past weekend I met one who wouldn't let me have my personal space for even 5 minutes. Her hands were perpetually wrapped around me like an octopus. Kept telling me that I'm "hot" (literally hot) as she siphoned away my body heat during the cold night lmao.

i just think post "metoo" movement its a bad idea.

I'm trying to think of anyone who in 2023 is still getting physical during the day.

i think maybe James Tusk still does physical stuff during the day.

he is a pretty good looking guy though so his style might not work for you depending on what you look like in comparison.

but besides james tusk, all the guys i can remember who did any sort of physical stuff in the day have all dissapeared and wiped all their stuff from the internet in recent years.

but yeah try james tusk:

 

[Skills]

Why is this the case?

Are girls less receptive to touch in 2023?

I actually find that they are more touchy feely these days post-pandemic.

Past weekend I met one who wouldn't let me have my personal space for even 5 minutes. Her hands were perpetually wrapped around me like an octopus. Kept telling me that I'm "hot" (literally hot) as she siphoned away my body heat during the cold night lmao.

brah i said about 60 times in the post or more, that physical game is coming back right???

You can do 60 yoc during the days but you will have to run a numbers game, 60 opens direct with "I think you are cute/interesting i have to come and say hi! something like that, i personally like to open more situational even during the day, unless, i am in a short time situation.... But i am just quoting 60 yoc method...... So yea it can work during the day like that doing numbers game screening for interested girls/green girls

Then he does something that i have done still in day game he milks the intro, this still works really good as an escalation i still do this works well during the day.....

NOW HERE IS MY POINT, you still need to banter minimally if you want to pull it of during the day, i did not say you have to dhv (which is the anti manifesto), or do cocky funny (which 60 does not advocate) etc... but you still have to minimally banter (that is my point)....

pure 60 is a bit easier to pull on loud environment..... All the dudes that used to do 60 type of style are gone.... One came back last week called scotty from gll, but he to my knowledge bang 1 girl, after 7 years, right now just got back in the field... I think teevester wing pelusita also runs a very physical type of game and 60 took some influence from him, could be wrong...


This is scotty dude this is like 9 years old lol, he was doing this during the day he has new channel here (just came back last week his success now a days is meh, my point) another one was steve jabba.... brah all these guys are time machine seducers in my opinion, including 60 yoc, who is also trying to come back (is not even posturing i respect and got love for them but is embarrassing, i am grateful to all of them, but it is what it is, these guys are no having successes now a days)

 

[ulrich]

You can touch girls in 2023.

What you can’t do is run a successful YouTube channel while showing and instructing in how to touch girls.
#metoo is a thing… but it happens mostly online

 

[Mr Mistah]

Then he does something that i have done still in day game he milks the intro, this still works really good as an escalation i still do this works well during the day.....

Yes. Milking the intro Another phenomenal technique I unconsciously learnt since I like touching.

First time I did it the girl pulled back and since I wasn't very good at holding tension, I folded along with her and ejected from that set.

I know better these days.

I think hand positioning is important for me too. Can't do the business handshake with a gilr for too long. Feels awkward and wrong to me.

Prefer the one with thumb over her knuckles. More man to woman frame.

brah i said about 60 times in the post or more, that physical game is coming back right???

That part was clear... just wondering why it went away in the first place.

Women like to be touched... today and ten years ago no? What happened in the interim

i would NOT reccomend doing physical stuff during the day in 2023 and goodlookingloser has said in recent interview that if he was gaming now he would not even touch girls at all during the day.

Actually in that video he says he wouldnt completely discard it altogether. He said it can be done its just that it takes good calibration and targeting to pull off. His actual words were about being able to "read the room" and take actions from that.

I think teevester wing pelusita also runs a very physical type of game and 60 took some influence from him, could be wrong...

Tell me more about Pelusita's game.
He's Latino? From South America?
Would be interesting to get a glimpse of how they run their physical game on that side of the world esp during the day.
They seem to have physical game on lock.

 

[Chase]

Can't remember the stuff they wrote 10+ years ago. So sorry... I simply can't remember old quality posters. Maybe @Chase can enlighten you. You know, after almost 15 years on forums, you simply can't remember everything you read.

I remember a few of these guys other than 60 from a private seducers forum I was on. Never interacted with them much or read all their stuff.

I was most active on mASF and a different private forum that no longer exists. They weren't on the latter... may have been on mASF but aside from 60 YoC I don't recall seeing them there.

There used to be a ton of high quality posters and you basically had to pick your poison; there simply wasn't enough to time to study every guy's method. So you focused on the guys whose style appealed to you most. I focused more on guys with good humor and dominating frame control who were going for girls who were bitchy or closed off at first then won those girls over and seduced them. Getting the girls who are a challenge has always been more fun to me.

For the guys I studied most (Zan, Lifeguard, A2daMIR, Dimitri, Woodhaven), there was a lot of physicality but it was more dominant relaxed-yet-firm guy touch (hand on small of her back; physically moving / guiding her; etc.), where the focus is on establishing yourself as the guy who is in charge, leading her around, and the sexual tension builds that way -- "wow, this guy is really moving me around very dominantly and confidently. He is not like most guys, who are so timid around me because of my looks & attitude", etc.

It's interesting the different branches of game there are. They really do appeal differently to different styles/personality types.

But anyway, yeah, this knowledge tends to disappear pretty quick if you aren't saving it. The number of guys interested in going deep into seduction is just too small to effectively monetize most methods. It's like a pyramid... the vast majority of guys who will buy something in seduction are looking for beginner-level solutions to get laid or get back some girl who isn't texting them back, etc. The higher up the pyramid of advancement you go the fewer guys there are who want to pay for anything and the less viable it is to make offering services in the space your bread and butter. You might be a high skilled gamer, but you still need your job at the software company, or laying bricks, mixing drinks, etc.

Guys will pop up with a brilliant new strategy for XYZ thing. A few more guys will synergize with that. It'll have its moment in the sun. Then the guys move on, some new big thing comes along, and the old method, while still working great, gets totally forgotten and basically becomes lost knowledge.

It's a basic human problem, really... it's why everywhere you look online you can find "how to X" guides totally focused on beginners, but the more advanced you are in any field the more you realize how hard it is to find increasingly advanced instruction, or even people you can hire to help you on XYZ issue who are actually better at whatever it is than you are.

Thus why so many stories revolve around the protagonist who's hit a wall seeking out some master teacher... and the master is always some guy in a temple in the middle of nowhere somewhere with like 3 students, really hard to find, not some guy running a giant business downtown in a metropolis with 10,000 students with ads for his services plastered everywhere. The downtown guy is focused on beginners, because that's where the demand is. Very few people actually want the master teacher.

Chase

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

I remember a few of these guys other than 60 from a private seducers forum I was on. Never interacted with them much or read all their stuff.

I was most active on mASF and a different private forum that no longer exists. They weren't on the latter... may have been on mASF but aside from 60 YoC I don't recall seeing them there.

There used to be a ton of high quality posters and you basically had to pick your poison; there simply wasn't enough to time to study every guy's method. So you focused on the guys whose style appealed to you most. I focused more on guys with good humor and dominating frame control who were going for girls who were bitchy or closed off at first then won those girls over and seduced them. Getting the girls who are a challenge has always been more fun to me.

For the guys I studied most (Zan, Lifeguard, A2daMIR, Dimitri, Woodhaven), there was a lot of physicality but it was more dominant relaxed-yet-firm guy touch (hand on small of her back; physically moving / guiding her; etc.), where the focus is on establishing yourself as the guy who is in charge, leading her around, and the sexual tension builds that way -- "wow, this guy is really moving me around very dominantly and confidently. He is not like most guys, who are so timid around me because of my looks & attitude", etc.

It's interesting the different branches of game there are. They really do appeal differently to different styles/personality types.

But anyway, yeah, this knowledge tends to disappear pretty quick if you aren't saving it. The number of guys interested in going deep into seduction is just too small to effectively monetize most methods. It's like a pyramid... the vast majority of guys who will buy something in seduction are looking for beginner-level solutions to get laid or get back some girl who isn't texting them back, etc. The higher up the pyramid of advancement you go the fewer guys there are who want to pay for anything and the less viable it is to make offering services in the space your bread and butter. You might be a high skilled gamer, but you still need your job at the software company, or laying bricks, mixing drinks, etc.

Guys will pop up with a brilliant new strategy for XYZ thing. A few more guys will synergize with that. It'll have its moment in the sun. Then the guys move on, some new big thing comes along, and the old method, while still working great, gets totally forgotten and basically becomes lost knowledge.

It's a basic human problem, really... it's why everywhere you look online you can find "how to X" guides totally focused on beginners, but the more advanced you are in any field the more you realize how hard it is to find increasingly advanced instruction, or even people you can hire to help you on XYZ issue who are actually better at whatever it is than you are.

Thus why so many stories revolve around the protagonist who's hit a wall seeking out some master teacher... and the master is always some guy in a temple in the middle of nowhere somewhere with like 3 students, really hard to find, not some guy running a giant business downtown in a metropolis with 10,000 students with ads for his services plastered everywhere. The downtown guy is focused on beginners, because that's where the demand is. Very few people actually want the master teacher.

Chase

Interesting take.

Going by this logic, is it possible to say that over time the demand for the master teacher will increase especially in the age of internet?

That is, as more people get frustrated due to lack of advanced methods there'll be an increasing demand for really advanced information

I feel like the lack of desire to find a master teacher comes from the lack of advanced knowledge (or from master teachers not putting themselves out there more)

 

[Chase]

Going by this logic, is it possible to say that over time the demand for the master teacher will increase especially in the age of internet?

Seems to be going the opposite direction, if you ask me.

There was much more demand for master seducer instruction during the 2000s and early 2010s when guys were excited about pickup and out practicing.

As skills decline, fewer and fewer people want training in a skill in general, and the skills of a master practitioner become valued less.

Most of the master practitioners of game I have known over the years dropped out of the field because it's just gotten harder to earn a living doing it and they're better off starting companies focused on XYZ other thing unrelated to anything have to do with seducing women.

That is, as more people get frustrated due to lack of advanced methods there'll be an increasing demand for really advanced information

I feel like the lack of desire to find a master teacher comes from the lack of advanced knowledge (or from master teachers not putting themselves out there more)

If you ask me, the level of dialogue on the Internet was much more advanced in the past. You had detailed, lengthy forums on everything, experts all over the place, it was this web of people sharing deep knowledge.

Now most of the forums (not just in seduction, but most places) are dead. People are on Reddit, where the level of discussion is low; Facebook, where the level of discussion is low; Discord, where it's somewhat higher but knowledge is far less accessible.

Blogging has died down quite a bit. People live on social media sites and get their attention highjacked by sensationalist stuff (fear-mongering news, attention grabbing social media posturing, etc.) and don't have the energy for the more thoughtful stuff that used to dominate the web that's not simplistic + sensational.

There'll always be some corner of the web with advanced folks having advanced discussions for most things, I'm sure.

But the web has been following the "Master Switch" trajectory for some time now:

Amazon.com: The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires: 9780307390998: Wu, Tim: Books

Amazon.com: The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires: 9780307390998: Wu, Tim: Books

www.amazon.com

Personally I have a harder and harder time finding expertise in anything I search for online. Web search is dominated by simplified beginner results, because that is what performs best on Google / gets the most clicks / has the most satisfied searchers, and all the niche stuff gets pushed to the bottom.

I don't think most people are frustrated at the lack of advanced methods.

I think most people are frustrated that the beginner methods aren't even simpler.

There is this big push to make things as simplified and bite-sized as possible.

That is the opposite direction from trending toward cultivation of advanced stuff.

The collective ethos of the 2020s Internet so far as I can tell is, "It's too hard! Make it easier!"

Chase

 

[Warped Mindless]

Seems to be going the opposite direction, if you ask me.

There was much more demand for master seducer instruction during the 2000s and early 2010s when guys were excited about pickup and out practicing.

As skills decline, fewer and fewer people want training in a skill in general, and the skills of a master practitioner become valued less.

Most of the master practitioners of game I have known over the years dropped out of the field because it's just gotten harder to earn a living doing it and they're better off starting companies focused on XYZ other thing unrelated to anything have to do with seducing women.



If you ask me, the level of dialogue on the Internet was much more advanced in the past. You had detailed, lengthy forums on everything, experts all over the place, it was this web of people sharing deep knowledge.

Now most of the forums (not just in seduction, but most places) are dead. People are on Reddit, where the level of discussion is low; Facebook, where the level of discussion is low; Discord, where it's somewhat higher but knowledge is far less accessible.

Blogging has died down quite a bit. People live on social media sites and get their attention highjacked by sensationalist stuff (fear-mongering news, attention grabbing social media posturing, etc.) and don't have the energy for the more thoughtful stuff that used to dominate the web that's not simplistic + sensational.

There'll always be some corner of the web with advanced folks having advanced discussions for most things, I'm sure.

But the web has been following the "Master Switch" trajectory for some time now:

Amazon.com: The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires: 9780307390998: Wu, Tim: Books

Amazon.com: The Master Switch: The Rise and Fall of Information Empires: 9780307390998: Wu, Tim: Books

www.amazon.com

Personally I have a harder and harder time finding expertise in anything I search for online. Web search is dominated by simplified beginner results, because that is what performs best on Google / gets the most clicks / has the most satisfied searchers, and all the niche stuff gets pushed to the bottom.

I don't think most people are frustrated at the lack of advanced methods.

I think most people are frustrated that the beginner methods aren't even simpler.

There is this big push to make things as simplified and bite-sized as possible.

That is the opposite direction from trending toward cultivation of advanced stuff.

The collective ethos of the 2020s Internet so far as I can tell is, "It's too hard! Make it easier!"

Chase

It’s going to get even worse when you go online to FB or Reddit and have 50 AI responses to every real response. It’s going to kill online discussions becusse everyone will just have their AI bots online promoting stuff.

Anyways, the same is true for advanced sales and persuasion. It’s nearly impossible to find anything outside of basic stuff now. Back in the day I was on a private forum that discussed such things and after it went offline… nowhere else exist now that I’m aware of.

Guys don’t really want to learn seduction anymore. They want a simple solution that can learn in the few minutes they take away from their games and weed.

2012 was where it all took a sharp decline.

 

[Mr Mistah]

Guys don’t really want to learn seduction anymore. They want a simple solution that can learn in the few minutes they take away from their games and weed.

2012 was where it all took a sharp decline.

Question for you... it seems like most seducers from that era got bored of seduction and fell of the radar to chase other pursuits.

So why are you guys still in the game?

Well... apart from Chase who makes a living out of this..What keeps the rest of you going.

Does it not get boring for you?

 

[Mr Mistah]

People live on social media sites and get their attention highjacked by sensationalist stuff (fear-mongering news, attention grabbing social media posturing, etc.) and don't have the energy for the more thoughtful stuff that used to dominate the web that's not simplistic + sensational.

Kissinger talks about this in his new book "Leadership; Six Strategies in World Strategy".

He says contemporary culture leads people to dumb down, be more erractic, more impulsive, more image-conscious, more conformist and to have a shallow sense of proportion or in PUA speak have "low calibration".

He finishes by saying that the implications of Social Media on leadership is that we might never witness the likes of Winston Churchill or De Gaulle again as people now are too dumb for it.

FWIW if you read Kissinger's books you'll be amazed by his grasp on global geopolitics. He can tell you about the power structures in bumfuck Timbukutu.

Really smart cat.

Fyi he was the architect behind the dollar being the world's supreme currency through the petrodollar after brokering the deal with the Saudi King and OPEC by extension for oil to be priced in dollars.

This was in 1975 after Nixon had fucked it up by ending the Bretton Woods.

Anyway... minor nerd moment but we can get back to the topic at hand now. Wont derail this thread further

 

[rr2021 aka DEVENCI]

Actually in that video he says he wouldnt completely discard it altogether. He said it can be done its just that it takes good calibration and targeting to pull off. His actual words were about being able to "read the room" and take actions from that.

what are you talking about here?

can you post the link where goodlookingloser does this?

but hey, do what you want bro, if you want to run goodlooking style physical game during the day in 2023 then good luck to you because in my opinion you are playing with fire especially if you do not have the same level of looks as goodlookingloser did when he was doing that game more then 10 years ago.

 

[rr2021 aka DEVENCI]

it seems like most seducers from that era got bored of seduction and fell of the radar to chase other pursuits.

So why are you guys still in the game?

i have never understood guys who say they get bored of the game.

i LOVE the nightlife.

i would literally go clubbing every single day if i could.

i loved the nightlife from the first time i stepped in a club at 21 and love it just as much now almost 10 years later.

as long as i still have the looks i will keep going clubbing; not even close to being bored

 

[ulrich]

I think most people are frustrated that the beginner methods aren't even simpler.

There is this big push to make things as simplified and bite-sized as possible.

That is the opposite direction from trending toward cultivation of advanced stuff.

The collective ethos of the 2020s Internet so far as I can tell is, "It's too hard! Make it easier!"

I have to confirm this.

Look at YouTube, the big social media platform where you could actually get cultivated if you actively chose the right channels.
It has devolved into 20 seconds long “shorts” and attention grabs.
The feed algorithm prioritizes pointless stuff over deep insightful information.

And let’s not talk about TikTok and Instagram where most people spend their time nowadays.

I used to sell courses on early entrepreneurship pre-COVID, now it’s becoming increasingly impossible for several reasons, one of them being the quality of the lead decayed enormously.
I’m finding harder and harder to find people who actually read newsletters or sits down for a 60 minute webinar.

Attention is fleeting.

Bottomline is people are demanding simpler and simpler answers for their problems… but it reaches a point where they don’t even want to put effort into solving them.

 

[Skills]

To op lets go back in time so i can clarify eveything like a baby.... :

Context.- there was no insta, no tiktok, no snapchat, no dating apps.

There were women that we called down to fuck... women that went out looking for dick.

Community was full of dudes that bastardize mysteey method and other methods using them incorrectly...

A group of naturals and guys in the community abandoned technical for more natural and physical game focusing on screening for women looking for dick and moving on from women not looking for dick.

Then the millenials and gen z came along and tinder, insta,snap, smart phones, clubs and meat markets died...i was crying like a baby, a horrible nightmare...All the screeners jump ship all of them, again all of them, i almost did to.

Physical game was you able with doing less convey social frame, sexual frame that you can deliver the good by way of subcommunications.. you could do this and get laid more than guys are getting laid now a days 3 lays a week doing this was normal and common, consistantly...let me repeat consistantly, day game, night game did not matter...


physical game never left.

Physical game = physical escalation with surface level conversation. No tailored verbal conversation with the purpose of turning her on.

The "tailored verbal conversation with the purpose of turning her on" = what i like to call "second generation verbals"

So when i say

"Physical game coming back"

I mean to say, a return to physically escalating without second gen.

Because physical game = physical escalation with surface level conversation.

I was making the point you are better off aka higher odds doing it with second. Gen.

 

[Mr Mistah]

To op lets go back in time so i can clarify eveything like a baby.... :

Context.- there was no insta, no tiktok, no snapchat, no dating apps.

There were women that we called down to fuck... women that went out looking for dick.

Community was full of dudes that bastardize mysteey method and other methods using them incorrectly...

A group of guys and guys in the community abandoned technical for more natural and physical game focusing on screening for women looking for dick and moving on from women not looking for dick.

Then the millenials and gen z came along and tinder, insta,snap, smart phones, clubs and meat markets died...i was crying like a baby, a horrible nightmare...All the screeners jump ship all of them, again all of them, i almost did to.

Physical game was you able with doing less convey social frame, sexual frame that you can deliver the good by way of subcommunications.. you could do this and get laid more than guys are getting laid now a days 3 days a week doing this was normal and common, consistantly...let me repeat consistantly, day game, night game did not matter...


physical game never left.

Physical game = physical escalation with surface level conversation. No tailored verbal conversation with the purpose of turning her on.

The "tailored verbal conversation with the purpose of turning her on" = what i like to call "second generation verbals"

So when i say

"Physical game coming back"

I mean to say, a return to physically escalating without second gen.

Because physical game = physical escalation with surface level conversation.

I was making the point you are better off aka higher odds doing it with second. Gen.

Thanks man. This is so much clearer. I get it now