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Seduction skills can hurt you...

Drck

Cro-Magnon Man
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Seduction skills can hurt you... At least too many of them


Ok, so you learn and learn seduction, and once you increase your knowledge substantially then you learn some more.

You go out and try to utilize those skills. You discover that girls are now attracted to you because you are doing things differently. You can approach much easier because you have more confidence. You finally get some dates and you understand girls much better. You do your best while utilizing all these skills but still, you encounter a lot of difficulties. So your logical conclusion is that you need to learn and do even more.

But chances are that you are already doing too much - you are trying to get every detail right, you are trying to be the perfect lover, you are looking for the "right seduction"...

Which might be exactly what is causing the problem. There is no "right seduction", it doesn't exist. She may not be looking exactly for flawless lover that she dreamt about for years, but she just want a simple, regular guy. She could care less if you are shy and don't have much experience. There might be some general advice such as moving fast, touching asap and pushing for closure, have abundance mentality, but each seduction is different. Each girl is little bit different in a sense that some may be ready and open to it during the first date, others are more closed and will require more time. Some may like that you are surrounded by many girls, others may be repulsed by that. How much time you have to get her laid, 1 date? 10 dates? 20 dates? Who really cares and who judges? You can still have lots of fun even without getting laid.

As far as seduction, at some point you will find out that most girls are rather simple. On a scale 0-100, your seduction knowledge might be say 80. But you really need only 10, even less to get the girl to the bed. At 30, you can still get her, but once you reach 50 she is gone. It is just too much. She just want to have some fun, and if she likes you she will make it easy for you. Very easy. No seduction needed.

It is like driving a Ferrari on a busy street where you can go only 40. You are barely touching the pedal, and all these horses under the hood are simply wasted. Although your Ferrari is a great car and can go 200 in a couple of seconds, it is just useless because all you need is just a simple ride...

See, if you hit the pedal and increase the speed, she might get alarmed. She just knows that something is wrong. She may not know what, but she just feels it. You are just trying to get this right and that right, and she might get amused by your seduction skills - but she won't sleep with you if she doesn't like you at first place...

You just can't utilize everything that you know. You can't be "perfect" seducer, meaning that you can't use everything that you know at the right time and right place. You have to make mistakes. Who knows, sometimes you just might want to look like a casual Nice Guy who simply wants to get laid, and doesn't know how to go about it. Other times you just might want to let her drive...
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Whizzy

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I feel as though something happened to make you feel this way? Care to elaborate?
 

Drck

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It is quite simple. Some girls like you more, others less. It happens to me, and I witnessed it many times around as well. Those who like you more will make it easy on you.

If she likes you a lot, you don't really need to do that much, you just "flow" with it, drift towards the destination (your bed). She has already decided to sleep with you, you don't really need to seduce her per se, you just let it happen by figuring out which place. For example, she might be going after you, inviting you here and there. She might invite you directly to her house, or she might come to your place. She is ready seduced.

If she doesn't like you much, you won't have that many chances anyway no matter what you do. She may always make it seem that she likes you a lot but will flake, she will not show up. She will make excuses. She may always make it seem that you can get her, but at the last moment she will escape. Why bother? If she wants to sleep with you and be with you, she would make it happen.

There are of course many girls in between, here you can use some of your seduction skills. They are somehow interested but the interaction always "hangs there". You have to do a lot and she is still hesitant. But that can be solved fairly quickly. Whenever she is around you always slightly push for closure. You make sure that she knows what you want (you want to sleep with her). You always suggest some place, e.g. going to your place. You simply set your frame and that is it, she either falls in or falls out, her choice. You don't chase, but next time you meet her you just repeat the same.

So how do you make her like you? Well, it is always the same. You work on your fundamentals and if you can, work on being more extrovert, have some friends, go out. You talk to more girls so you have abundance mentality. When you like the girl, you simply suggest that you like her, meaning you don't really have to tell her directly: "Look, I really like you and I was wondering if you like me too". Instead, you talk to her more than to other girls and you spent more time around her than around other girls. She's not stupid, she'll know right away. Just don't be too annoying.

Then the same happens. You got your frame, you suggest your place. Again, she is not stupid, she'll know right away. You of course touch, and she knows that you are touching because you want to be more intimate. She knows what you want, you don't have to be clever about it.

That is it, simple and effective. You can even call it naive or passive approach, which is a good description there is really not much about seduction - you just go out, talk to girls, and once a girl is more receptive you start touching and suggest your place. If she is ready, she will go with you. If not you smile and leave it for next time. You'll try next time because if she really likes you she will stick around. It is difficult for that girl not to like a friendly guy with good fundamentals who happens to like her.

There is no need to pretend confidence or dominance, you can be a nice guy instead of an asshole, you don't have to push and persists, you don't have to pretend that you are an expert lover. You don't signal at all that you are a sexy man or that you want sex... It is all simply included in your frame...

This way, she simply has some choices, she feels like she has some cards in her hand. You are not pushing too much either, so if she likes you she actually has to invest more into you - she has to think how it will happen and where, she has to think how she should act and what to say, she has to think what signs she has to give you so you "get it" and if you don't "get it" she has to invite her to her place and so on. Very powerful stuff. Compare it to a leading/dominant guy who is working hard on being a seducer. She may of course appreciate the lead and suggested experience, no doubt about it, but how will she invest? Everything is already done, the guy is doing everything right or at least trying. There is not much to invest, she knows he wants sex and that he lives 5 mins away. It is too easy for her,, the guy took care of everything there is no challenge, and unless she is just horny she will simply not do it....
 

Knight Who Say NI

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Drck,

maybe learning about charisma could really take you to the next level. I strongly recommend reading "The Charisma Myth", by Olivia Fox Cabane.

And there's a "Master Your People Skills" course ongoing on Creative Live.

It is the real deal.

About the easiness of getting things going with the girls that like you more... My experience is quite the opposite of yours! It certainly depends on the girl and my attainability with them, but most that end up crazy about me usually mess things up. It's hard to give definite statements without being precise in defining the factors involved (like age, personality type).
 

Mr.Rob

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I think it's one of those things that you go too far into (over game) and then learn to dial it back down to a more "natural" level/vibe.

I don't see much of an argument for seduction skills hurting you. I could see regular PUA creeper skills hurting you but the stuff on GC is pretty easy to integrate naturally and is basic self improvement.
 

Thedoctor

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I think the important thing to remember is to "make it your own." Not every tactic is going to work for everyone. The underlying principles are always important and always the same, but there's no need to completely re-invent yourself into a carbon copy of another seducer.

That's one of the advantages of having different writers with different styles. It gives everyone a wide array of ideas to pick and choose from.

...And to build on Anatman's comment, I'd rather be driving a Ferrari at 40, than a little Fiat at 150. ;)

-John
 

Drck

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Knight: "My experience is quite the opposite of yours!"
>>>> I have no idea what are you talking about. If the girl likes you a lot, it is very easy to seduce her. You can comfortably SLOW down (instead of speeding up). She WILL eventually invite you to her place if you show that you are interested in her. You DON'T USE any seduction on her because she is already seduced. There is nothing more easier that girl that is really interested in you. If you can't get a girl who likes you, it is exactly because of what I'm describing - You are doing too much...

It is like driving a vehicle. First, you need to input some energy in so the car starts moving forward. But once it is moving forward you don't really have to keep the pedal pushed all the way to the floor, you can release your foot and just cruise at comfortable speed, and here and there adjust the direction. You can even let her drive - as long as you know where the destination is...

TheDoc: "I'd rather be driving a Ferrari than Fiat" >>>> That is actually exactly my point. Those are two extremes, either a guy who has no clue how to seduce, or seducer who has a need to seduce every good looking girl he sees. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can comfortably drive mid-size sedan with decent features and good power, some car that is in the middle. You upgrade from Fiat, but you don't necessary need Ferrari, even if you can afford it. The same way, there is no need to keep seducing that girl. You just input some energy in, and once things start moving forward you just drive at comfortable speed. It doesn't have to be 150, but you don't have to drive 40 either. 80 is simply good enough...
 

Thedoctor

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Drck,
Drck said:
TheDoc: "I'd rather be driving a Ferrari than Fiat" >>>> That is actually exactly my point. Those are two extremes, either a guy who has no clue how to seduce, or seducer who has a need to seduce every good looking girl he sees. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can comfortably drive mid-size sedan with decent features and good power, some car that is in the middle. You upgrade from Fiat, but you don't necessary need Ferrari, even if you can afford it. The same way, there is no need to keep seducing that girl. You just input some energy in, and once things start moving forward you just drive at comfortable speed. It doesn't have to be 150, but you don't have to drive 40 either. 80 is simply good enough...

A part of my statement there is missing which alters its meaning. What I meant by it is I'd rather be attempting to do something amazing (driving the Ferrari at 200, even if at first I'm only able to go 40) than settle for a something mediocre (a simple ride).

Why settle for "ok" when you can be amazing at something?

You are correct to think that you can do "ok" just by implementing a couple changes. Your posts are talking about a guy that is trying to get to the next level and not coming off looking as natural. If you keep working at it, it won't come off looking scripted or out of character.

I agree with some statements you've made. But sometimes I can't tell if you're trying to get a point across or just trolling.

-John
 

Drck

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When you look around at desirable girls, most of them are always with a guy. It is actually quite unusual to find good looking and normal girl without a guy. It of course happens but there is only a short window, perhaps just couple of weeks at most. As a matter of fact, I witnessed several girls splitting with a guy, dating several guys right after that within 1-6 weeks, and then they ended up being with another guy. Does it mean that all these guys who end up with her are seducers?

No way. There is just no way. When you look at these guys, I bet most of them have no clue about seduction. For example, they are not particularly mysterious, they don't really have sexy looks and walks, they don't exert too much confidence or dominance, they don't talk in any particularly different way than other people and so on. They are just simple guys, they may not have much experience either. They could have nice clothes on, or just casual shirt. They could be assholes, or just nice guys. Sometimes my jaw even drops when I see quite a hotty with a guy who doesn't even look and behave "average", yet she is all over him, quite happy, in love...

How could it be? How do they end up with a girl like that? IMO it is simple. She simply liked him for whatever reason. She likes him and they go out. She still like him, they spent more time together, and miracle happens. It happened like that millions and millions of times, just in the past one hundred years...

But how do you make her like you in some way? That is a tough one, because if she doesn't like you enough she won't really sleep with you no matter what you do. You get rejected regardless of what is your seduction skills level. Perhaps one way is to improve your fundamentals. Fundamentals generate lots of attraction, but again - is attraction enough to make her like you enough to sleep with you?

Whatever, I just see it differently. The way I see it is, if she really likes you you don't have to do much as she will take care of huge part herself, including e.g. inviting you to her place. That is my experience, done it several times, all is needed is just patiently wait (vs for example pushing forward for fast closure)...
 

Whizzy

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I can see where you are coming from Drck, many of my first girlfriends and I got together much as you described. However, a huge part of that is due to luck and being the best possible/most feasible option to her. Also keep in mind that dating right after a breakup isn't that uncommon, for either guys or girls. The average guy just tends to pine longer than the average girl who might pine for a week then get right back into the dating game.
 

NarrowJ

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I've read this entire thread and the discussion seems to boil down to the difference between (a) learning how to seduce and (b) just being seductive naturally.

Sure. Some guys are fine without learning seduction. But, it's not because they aren't seducing women, it's because they just do it without much conscious thought or effort... it just comes naturally to them.

To the original thought that had spurred this thread (that seduction skills can hurt you if you overuse them), I completely agree with that. Most everyone here is familiar with the term "over-gaming", where you have a guy who might be using scripted stories, canned material or techniques, or darker, more manipulating tactics. Unless you're just really good at selling it, this comes off as non-genuine and the girl will either become wary of you or just plain creeped out.

So yeah, I definitely agree that over-gaming is not good, but not seducing at all isn't good either. If you just sit there and wait for women to take action, to invite you places and initiate things... then you're just going to have a tough time with them. Women taking the lead in romantic relationships isn't really customary, but more importantly, it's just not in their nature.


J.J.
 

Franco

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This topic has come up several times. I'll highlight what the difference here is.

What Drck is trying to say I think we can all agree upon: there are men out there with no seduction skills who end up with beautiful women. And by "seduction skills," I mean things learned on a website, or a PUA blog, or a forum, or somewhere else other than personal, natural experience that you get when you apply yourself in the field. Yes, this is true. Men go out there, get experience, and occasionally get laid (while occasionally getting girlfriends). If you immerse yourself in an environment enough, then you will eventually gain "some" insight into how things are done, and you'll probably end up with some moderate success.

Now, I'd say the majority of the readers of this website fall into two categories: those who have never immersed themselves at ALL with women (or social circles in general) and have no idea how to being doing that, and those who have already done that and are looking to go "above and beyond" what the natural men out there are capable of... and become extremely adept at taking home women consistently and frequently. This is the only website (that I have ever seen) that can get you there. (NOTE: There are guys that are "in between" that come here who already have some experience and are just looking to get a new, great girlfriend, so it's not just one or the other of course)

So what this website does for the TRUE beginners -- those who don't even know what to say to women (or even other men for that matter) -- is teach them how to become socially calibrated. This website breaks down social dynamics to the very basic building blocks that make it easily understandable for even the MOST socially inept individuals to analyze, understand, and implement. This is absolutely awesome since most "seduction" websites hover around the idea of just "hitting the gym" and "start talking to girls." For a lot of guys, it's really not this easy. And the guys who can't understand why it's not easy don't understand it because they have never been in those shoes of those who don't understand it.

However, the guys on here who REALLY want to become truly prolific with women and understand them to the very core want to go beyond what the "natural" men you see with beautiful women are capable of. I've seen plenty of average-looking guys with hot girls. Am I necessarily impressed? Not really. The number ONE way that average guys end up with hot girls is through social circle, so if you think they are just ending up with these girls easily through talking to them at some bar or club, you are mistaken. Also, you have no idea what is going on behind the scenes of "an average guy with a hot girl." The girl might be getting tired of his neediness and already looking for a replacement. Or maybe the guy does not know how to manage a relationship and the girl is completely frustrated with him, especially if she's very attractive and has tons of other men flirting with her at all times. There is a lot more going on than just saying, "I've seen an average guy with a hot girl, so I can do it too!"

It doesn't work that way.

Some of the guys here want to be more than the average guy. They want to understand what ALL hot women want, and they want to have a process that they not only know works, but works extremely effectively to the point where they have these types of women texting them and socializing with them on a frequent basis because they truly adore women, they love sex, and they want to be the best they CAN be for these women. There is no "natural" who obtains all of this without immersing himself deeper than the "average" guy. I can speak with confidence when I say that some of our senior members on here are capable of extraordinary things, and with the right amount of attunement, they are achieving things that no natural without an actual gameplan with women will ever be able to do, either because (1) he's not aware of the fact that a website like this exists where men can be extraordinary with women rather than just "good" with women or (2) he's not interested in being more than just "good" with women and is happy with his current abilities.

So the thing to be careful of, Drck, is to make claims that "learning seduction is bad for you" when that is not at all the case. Learning seduction is only bad for you if you aren't going out in the field and practicing your abilities, gaining social experience, and learning to become more natural by following the advice that is given to you by those who have a lot of experience. If you are not doing any of that and you are just becoming a "keyboard jockey" (someone who posts all the time on the forums about how he knows everything about women and what to do with them yet doesn't actually go out and do it), then at that point, seduction is hurting you instead of helping you.

Hopefully that clears things up so that we don't see any more confusion over this topic on the boards.

- Franco
 

Drck

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I'd really like to challenge the complexity of seduction. Try (whoever) this simple approach:

1. Forget all the mystery, sexy walks and talks and looks, deep diving, clever sexting, dominance and confidence and so on. Those can of course be really good but are not necessery. Instead, simply hit on a girl that you think she likes you
2. Then back away
3. If she likes you she will come after you (close to you, talk to you, touch you,...)
4. Hit on her again, this time harder
5. Back away, meaning don't do anything until she comes back to you again
6. Repeat several times
7. She will be all over you. She will start suggesting places to go (dates), she will even start suggesting her place. She is not going exactly say "why don't we go to my place and work on stuff"... and the guy is like: "Oh yea? Do you mean like we can sleep together?" ... and she's like "Yes, that is exactly what I mean, just come to my place and we will sleep together". Well, I hope that you are not thinking that way, because IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN THAT WAY... But what may happen is that she may say something like: "I'm having a party on Saturday, ...", while looking at you. DUH! Or she may say "there is plenty of room to stay at my place (after you go somewhere around that area)". DUH! Or, she may text you some romantic pic with candles, something in that sense. She simply starts hinting doing some things at her place
8. All you have to do is show up.
9. And, of course, start talking a little bit, start touching a bit, and perhaps kissing, and... Well, DUH!
9. If it doesn't work try exactly the same with 2 other girls
10. Let me know if it doesn't work at all

Added: This won't happen during one day/meeting with her, rather over time, several days or even weeks. Don't be surprised if you hit hard on girl - and she will show interest in you even YEARS later. Don't trust me, try it yourself and you'll see. So this is more college, work or similar setting when you see the girl more often. Also, here the Attraction has Expiration date truly works, meaning you have to act fast once she invites you someplace or she is gone.
 

trashKENNUT

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Drck,

Drck said:
I'd really like to challenge the complexity of seduction. Try (whoever) this simple approach:

1. Forget all the mystery, sexy walks and talks and looks, deep diving, clever sexting, dominance and confidence and so on. Those can of course be really good but are not necessery. Instead, simply hit on a girl that you think she likes you
2. Then back away
3. If she likes you she will come after you (close to you, talk to you, touch you,...)
4. Hit on her again, this time harder
5. Back away, meaning don't do anything until she comes back to you again
6. Repeat several times
7. She will be all over you. She will start suggesting places to go (dates), she will even start suggesting her place. She is not going exactly say "why don't we go to my place and work on stuff"... and the guy is like: "Oh yea? Do you mean like we can sleep together?" ... and she's like "Yes, that is exactly what I mean, just come to my place and we will sleep together". Well, I hope that you are not thinking that way, because IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN THAT WAY... But what may happen is that she may say something like: "I'm having a party on Saturday, ...", while looking at you. DUH! Or she may say "there is plenty of room to stay at my place (after you go somewhere around that area)". DUH! Or, she may text you some romantic pic with candles, something in that sense. She simply starts hinting doing some things at her place
8. All you have to do is show up.
9. And, of course, start talking a little bit, start touching a bit, and perhaps kissing, and... Well, DUH!
9. If it doesn't work try exactly the same with 2 other girls
10. Let me know if it doesn't work at all

Added: This won't happen during one day/meeting with her, rather over time, several days or even weeks. Don't be surprised if you hit hard on girl - and she will show interest in you even YEARS later. Don't trust me, try it yourself and you'll see. So this is more college, work or similar setting when you see the girl more often. Also, here the Attraction has Expiration date truly works, meaning you have to act fast once she invites you someplace or she is gone.

I can tell you this is what people do and many different variations i have seen and also done this myself. Yeap it works. But important, Franco noted this. That average guys with hot girls. Too many times the guy sucks, if that's a way to put it.

I can tell you that even guys who have success in business tend to overvalue the girl.

Zac
 
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