Several questions (LONG POST)

[Bboy100]

Hi guys, I posted this on Chase's article "9 tips for dating college girls". Unfortunately, I never got a reply. Hopefully you guys might be able to bring me some insight. Here it is:


Hi Chase, I've been reading quite a bit of your material lately, and I've even started going through your beginner's package (i.e. doing the homework and everything) and I think most of your material is unique and worth its value in the real world.

However, I've recently read an ebook by Mark Redmen called "Conquer your Campus" its basically all about dating in college. A lot of its material is very contradictory to yours, and I wanted to know how you would reply to it.

Basically, the main premise of Conquer your Campus is that college is in a sense one huge social circle. That is to say, everyone knows everyone else (either in person, or through reputation), and it is very much a tribal community. As a result, Redmen suggests that "game" and "cold approaching" has almost no value, and can even be perceived as creepy (he spends quite a while explaining exactly why that is! I can summarize it in a reply post if need be.).

Instead, Redmen believes that the best way to meet girls in college is to break into and become the leader of said social circle (thereby achieving preselection).

The main contrast between the two of you is that, in quite a few of your articles, you suggest that "social circles" are best avoided altogether. Redmen would say that is difficult or impossible in college if you want to meet girls (or people in general for that matter).

Also, Redmen suggests that its best to be the all smiles, "fun" type of guy (mixed in with dominance, leadership and the ability to be laid back). While the two of you more or less would agree on the other three traits, I feel like your material is more geared towards being smooth and mysterious as opposed to "fun".

So, my questions are: How would you reply to these things? What role do you see social circle to play in College?


Also, completely unrelated questions:
How do I take care of logistics in college? I have roommates who may or may not be home, so, needless to say, my apartment isn't always an option.


Update:
I've been doing some approaching in College, but not nearly enough for me develop a reputation. Unfortunately, its also not nearly enough to actually get better at The Social Arts.
Anyways, I don't particularly like the idea of using direct openers (partially because of my own insecurity which I need to overcome), but also because most girls in college are super young & inexperienced. As a result, the few times that I have done this type of approach, they seemed pretty flustered/overwhelmed. This pressure often causes them to quickly exit the conversation. As a result, I feel like indirect openers are a lot more powerful here.

Unfortunately, this raises another problem. If the girl is clearly focused on something, or is wearing headphones (something which 90% of the girls seem to be doing during the day), it seems very unnatural and weird to go out of my way, interrupt them and then use an indirect opener.

Is this all in my head or do I have a point? If so, how do I get around this issue?

 

[fsc]

Basically, the main premise of Conquer your Campus is that college is in a sense one huge social circle. That is to say, everyone knows everyone else (either in person, or through reputation), and it is very much a tribal community.

Greek life is pretty much a huge social circle, but outside of that, it depends on the size of the college and how social the students are. As a personal example, when I used to visit my buddy at UCSB, I noticed that people were very friendly and easy to talk to. In his apartment complex, he'd leave his door open and neighbors would simply stop by, introduce himself/herself, and socialize. At my university, however, most kids seem to build their social circle during their freshman year via freshman orientation, dorm life, etc, and the primary way of meeting others after that seems to be through extended social circle. I rarely see strangers striking up conversations with other strangers, and I met no one at the apartment I lived in during my first year. So I feel like my university is more like a bunch of social circles linked together very loosely, since many students will belong to more than one group. It feels very far from a "tribal community", however.

As a result, Redmen suggests that "game" and "cold approaching" has almost no value, and can even be perceived as creepy (he spends quite a while explaining exactly why that is! I can summarize it in a reply post if need be.).

I think the "game" that Chase preaches is quite different from the stereotypical PUA definition of "game". The reason why it can be perceived as creepy is because the guy doing the approach is doing a terrible job at it.

This idiot always comes to my mind when I think about "game", "creepy", and "college".

And summarize his reasoning plis.

Instead, Redmen believes that the best way to meet girls in college is to break into and become the leader of said social circle (thereby achieving preselection).

Can't argue with the fact that preselection is a powerful tool. However, I'd look at the bigger picture and focus my energy on becoming the type of man that GC advocates, rather than trying hard to become the leader of some social circle. When you become the ideal "GC man", you'll be able to blend into any type of social circle and be welcome. I don't really think you need to be THE leader of the social circle--you just need to be welcomed by it, then just charm the panties off of the girls within it.

The main contrast between the two of you is that, in quite a few of your articles, you suggest that "social circles" are best avoided altogether. Redmen would say that is difficult or impossible in college if you want to meet girls (or people in general for that matter).

When Chase or other authors talk about "social circle", I believe they're referring to something more along the lines of the 10-20 folks at work or whatever. In such a case, screwing up with a girl means possible social consequences by everyone else in the group...which would suck, hence avoid. Redman, on the other hand, sees college as a giant social circle, so by definition it's difficult/impossible to avoid social circle.

Also, Redmen suggests that its best to be the all smiles, "fun" type of guy (mixed in with dominance, leadership and the ability to be laid back). While the two of you more or less would agree on the other three traits, I feel like your material is more geared towards being smooth and mysterious as opposed to "fun".

Try to see a "mysterious" guy as one who is mysterious because he doesn't reveal too much about himself. He is far, far more interested in getting to know the girl than blurting out his life story. When she asks about him, he reveals just enough information to satisfy the answer while "baiting" her to chase and inquire more about the guy (or he may deflect the question altogether), and turn the conversation back to her. For example, say a girl asks, "So where have you traveled to?" The non-mysterious guy would provide a list of all the places he has been whereas the mysterious guy may respond with something like "I'm a globetrotter...I visited your home country last year, actually. When was the last time you've been?" and have her talk about the last time she was home and stir some warm, fuzzy feelings.

How does Redmen define "fun"? There's a difference between a "jester fun" and a "devil may care fun".

Also keep in mind that Redmen is focused on campus game whereas Chase focuses on game as a whole, and I believe he has gained most his experience through bar/lounge/club game. Bars, lounges, and clubs will generally be filled with girls who are out of college and more likely to prefer mature guys who are exciting and intriguing over the young "fun" type they were interested in when they were 18-22 and less socially experienced.

Not too long ago, I tried smiling a lot more than I used to. Bitches and mofos thought I was gay.

How do I take care of logistics in college? I have roommates who may or may not be home, so, needless to say, my apartment isn't always an option.

Talk to them about giving you privacy because you might have a girl over. I don't know what your situation is, but I was pretty close with my roommates so I was just like "Hey, I plan to have a girl over tonight, so...if I text you 'GTFO', can you?".

Anyways, I don't particularly like the idea of using direct openers (partially because of my own insecurity which I need to overcome), but also because most girls in college are super young & inexperienced. As a result, the few times that I have done this type of approach, they seemed pretty flustered/overwhelmed. This pressure often causes them to quickly exit the conversation. As a result, I feel like indirect openers are a lot more powerful here.

The following is just an opinion of a guy who primarily goes direct. I agree with the flustered/overwhelmed thing, but I don't remember the last time a girl exited the conversation because of the pressure, unless I consider the times (still only a handful) when they stumbled away half-giggling, half-gasping "I have a boyfriend" or "thank you". Perhaps you're coming across too strong? Perhaps you're asking tough questions too early? Do you treat approaching as something casual that you "just do", or do you view it as something super serious? Give me an example of your direct opener including your nonverbals and how it went.

I think there are times when going direct is better than doing indirect, and there are times when the opposite is true. To be honest, I'm not all that creative, so I usually cannot come up with a decent indirect opener. Also, I like the fact that girls are flustered/overwhelmed because it places you in the dominant position and you can lead the interaction in the direction that you want. I've only had a handful of non-direct openers, so I can't recall all the details, but I think I often find myself having to play verbal jujitsu with the girl--which sucks because again, I'm not super creative or witty. I think the uncertainty definitely helps if you go indirect (her wondering "does he like me?"), but I would personally prefer to have a submissive girl in my hands than a frame battle.

Unfortunately, this raises another problem. If the girl is clearly focused on something, or is wearing headphones (something which 90% of the girls seem to be doing during the day), it seems very unnatural and weird to go out of my way, interrupt them and then use an indirect opener.

Fuck it, just interrupt them. Make sure to interrupt them with as little effort as possible though: poke/tap her shoulder, put your hands by your ears and motion with your hands as if you're removing earphones while maintaining eye contact, say simple shit like "hey" or "excuse me", etc. There were times early on when I blurted out my entire opener, only to have her remove the earphones and be like "what?". You feel stupid reeeal quick lol

 

[Bboy100]

Thank you for the reply, those are some good thoughts which definitely got me thinking. My reply is going to be an attempt to play devil's advocate. Not because I believe Redman is necessarily right, but I just feel like everyone's thoughts should be examined before they are discarded.

Bboy100 wrote:
Basically, the main premise of Conquer your Campus is that college is in a sense one huge social circle. That is to say, everyone knows everyone else (either in person, or through reputation), and it is very much a tribal community.

Greek life is pretty much a huge social circle, but outside of that, it depends on the size of the college and how social the students are. As a personal example, when I used to visit my buddy at UCSB, I noticed that people were very friendly and easy to talk to. In his apartment complex, he'd leave his door open and neighbors would simply stop by, introduce himself/herself, and socialize. At my university, however, most kids seem to build their social circle during their freshman year via freshman orientation, dorm life, etc, and the primary way of meeting others after that seems to be through extended social circle. I rarely see strangers striking up conversations with other strangers, and I met no one at the apartment I lived in during my first year. So I feel like my university is more like a bunch of social circles linked together very loosely, since many students will belong to more than one group. It feels very far from a "tribal community", however.

My school doesn't have a Greek system. It does however, have 15000+ students, so its respectably large. As far as the social attitude of the students goes, it seems that its exactly the way your school was. I've found some success meeting new people through parties and through more social circle oriented venues such as clubs, sports etc. But for the most part, people are already in more closed off social circles (I didn't start going to my current school until Junior year).

Here are a few quotes to summarize Redman's rationale for why almost every college is social circle based:

"You remember how I wrote that college is a cohesive social scene? Let's make sure that we're on the same page here-most colleges are in small towns or suburbs where the same people are going to be running into each other day in and day out for four years. There are excepts-NYU has a much different vibe than JMU-but even at schools in big cities, there's a notion of being in the same classes, knowing the same people, etc.

So in essence, what we have is something like a tribe. A group of people fixed in a certain demographic location for a certain amount of time. ... Now, 20000 may seem like a lot (in reference to number of students on campus), but lets consider that each class takes up a quarter of that-5000 people. Now put all those people in a demographic area that is no more than a few miles wide in every direction, and you can imagine how those people might start running into each other.

Here's the crazy part though, even if your chances of running into the exact same person twice are relatively low, the probability of running into any same person twice is very high. So even though you rarely see Julie, you still might feel like you might see her at any time. And as anyone who has spent any amount of time in college knows, you actually do start running into the same people again and again as you concentrate on your major, and as your social group evolves.

Bboy100 wrote:
As a result, Redmen suggests that "game" and "cold approaching" has almost no value, and can even be perceived as creepy (he spends quite a while explaining exactly why that is! I can summarize it in a reply post if need be.).

I think the "game" that Chase preaches is quite different from the stereotypical PUA definition of "game". The reason why it can be perceived as creepy is because the guy doing the approach is doing a terrible job at it.

This idiot always comes to my mind when I think about "game", "creepy", and "college".

And summarize his reasoning plis.

As I reread the chapter Redman wrote on why pickup doesn't work, you're right, it seems that he is talking about more traditional PUA with canned openers and routines and whatnot. This is probably the "creepy" portion he was talking about. I originally wrote this post when I wasn't yet too familiar with the content of this website.

However, he does bring up another debatable point. That being that girls in college are often more concerned with status than hooking up. That is, if hooking up with a certain person (someone of low status or outside their social group) will jeopardize their social status, then they won't do it.
More quotes from Conquer your Campus to support this:

"What we (He and his mentor) realized is that girls in college want to figure out who top dog is. And check this out...they're going to figure it out by watching guys interact with each other, not by simply talking to you.

Girls are going to watch you talk to other guys, flirt with other girls. Your game matters-absolutely-but you can have pretty bad game and still hookup like crazy if you have certain personality traits that define how you act in a certain social situation.

So let me make this clear as I can: Girls aren't out to get hit on (he earlier on suggests that girls out of college who go to bars and clubs oftentimes are). They're out to select who to hookup with. This is known as pre-selection.

Bboy100 wrote:
Instead, Redmen believes that the best way to meet girls in college is to break into and become the leader of said social circle (thereby achieving preselection).

Can't argue with the fact that preselection is a powerful tool. However, I'd look at the bigger picture and focus my energy on becoming the type of man that GC advocates, rather than trying hard to become the leader of some social circle. When you become the ideal "GC man", you'll be able to blend into any type of social circle and be welcome. I don't really think you need to be THE leader of the social circle--you just need to be welcomed by it, then just charm the panties off of the girls within it.


You're right, he also advocate that you don't necessarily need to be the leader, you simply must be of relatively high status in the group. Redman would probably agree with you. A lot of the traits that he advocates are the same as those on girlschase. However, because college girls chase status more than anything else, it might indeed be necessary to be a part of their social circle in order to hookup with them. Just being a man who hypothetically could be a part of their group may not be enough.

Bboy100 wrote:
The main contrast between the two of you is that, in quite a few of your articles, you suggest that "social circles" are best avoided altogether. Redmen would say that is difficult or impossible in college if you want to meet girls (or people in general for that matter).

When Chase or other authors talk about "social circle", I believe they're referring to something more along the lines of the 10-20 folks at work or whatever. In such a case, screwing up with a girl means possible social consequences by everyone else in the group...which would suck, hence avoid. Redman, on the other hand, sees college as a giant social circle, so by definition it's difficult/impossible to avoid social circle.

Agreed. But that doesn't change the dynamic of social circle. If I really am a part of one huge group in college, then I would have to play by the rules of social circle, and not those of cold approach would I not?

Bboy100 wrote:
Also, Redmen suggests that its best to be the all smiles, "fun" type of guy (mixed in with dominance, leadership and the ability to be laid back). While the two of you more or less would agree on the other three traits, I feel like your material is more geared towards being smooth and mysterious as opposed to "fun".

Try to see a "mysterious" guy as one who is mysterious because he doesn't reveal too much about himself. He is far, far more interested in getting to know the girl than blurting out his life story. When she asks about him, he reveals just enough information to satisfy the answer while "baiting" her to chase and inquire more about the guy (or he may deflect the question altogether), and turn the conversation back to her. For example, say a girl asks, "So where have you traveled to?" The non-mysterious guy would provide a list of all the places he has been whereas the mysterious guy may respond with something like "I'm a globetrotter...I visited your home country last year, actually. When was the last time you've been?" and have her talk about the last time she was home and stir some warm, fuzzy feelings.

How does Redmen define "fun"? There's a difference between a "jester fun" and a "devil may care fun".

Also keep in mind that Redmen is focused on campus game whereas Chase focuses on game as a whole, and I believe he has gained most his experience through bar/lounge/club game. Bars, lounges, and clubs will generally be filled with girls who are out of college and more likely to prefer mature guys who are exciting and intriguing over the young "fun" type they were interested in when they were 18-22 and less socially experienced.

Not too long ago, I tried smiling a lot more than I used to. Bitches and mofos thought I was gay.

He means a devil may care attitude. I wasn't familiar with the difference when I first posted this. on Chase's article.

How do I take care of logistics in college? I have roommates who may or may not be home, so, needless to say, my apartment isn't always an option.

Talk to them about giving you privacy because you might have a girl over. I don't know what your situation is, but I was pretty close with my roommates so I was just like "Hey, I plan to have a girl over tonight, so...if I text you 'GTFO', can you?".

Thank you! This advice is much appreciated. I'm not sure why I didn't think of this. lol.

Bboy100 wrote:
Anyways, I don't particularly like the idea of using direct openers (partially because of my own insecurity which I need to overcome), but also because most girls in college are super young & inexperienced. As a result, the few times that I have done this type of approach, they seemed pretty flustered/overwhelmed. This pressure often causes them to quickly exit the conversation. As a result, I feel like indirect openers are a lot more powerful here.

The following is just an opinion of a guy who primarily goes direct. I agree with the flustered/overwhelmed thing, but I don't remember the last time a girl exited the conversation because of the pressure, unless I consider the times (still only a handful) when they stumbled away half-giggling, half-gasping "I have a boyfriend" or "thank you". Perhaps you're coming across too strong? Perhaps you're asking tough questions too early? Do you treat approaching as something casual that you "just do", or do you view it as something super serious? Give me an example of your direct opener including your nonverbals and how it went.

I think there are times when going direct is better than doing indirect, and there are times when the opposite is true. To be honest, I'm not all that creative, so I usually cannot come up with a decent indirect opener. Also, I like the fact that girls are flustered/overwhelmed because it places you in the dominant position and you can lead the interaction in the direction that you want. I've only had a handful of non-direct openers, so I can't recall all the details, but I think I often find myself having to play verbal jujitsu with the girl--which sucks because again, I'm not super creative or witty. I think the uncertainty definitely helps if you go indirect (her wondering "does he like me?"), but I would personally prefer to have a submissive girl in my hands than a frame battle.

Its definitely something I'm still working on, and as a result, I have to invest more effort into it, therefore making it a more serious type thing for me. I hope to one day make it something I just do. As for an example, I'm unsure of how to describe all the non-verbals, only because there are so many that I'm not sure what you would look for.

But, basically, I use the exact same template on this website: Hey, I just saw you walking/sitting there, and I just had to come by and tell you that you have an impeccable sense of style. Hi, my name is Simeon.

Normally (unless I'm at a party where people are drunk and are more receptive to direct interest anyways), she just looks at me like, "who is this guy and how the hell do I react to this?" Followed by an interaction in which she seems super pressured/unsure of what to do.

Maybe I am coming across too strong. But I'm unsure of what exactly causes that. What do you mean by "tough questions"?

Fuck it, just interrupt them. Make sure to interrupt them with as little effort as possible though: poke/tap her shoulder, put your hands by your ears and motion with your hands as if you're removing earphones while maintaining eye contact, say simple shit like "hey" or "excuse me", etc. There were times early on when I blurted out my entire opener, only to have her remove the earphones and be like "what?". You feel stupid reeeal quick lol

Yeah, that's what I thought. It just feels super uncomfortable because it feels like I'm being intrusive. Especially if I'm using an indirect opener. It doesn't really make sense for me to make her take off her headphones to tell her I think the bus is taking exceptionally long to get here.

Again, I really do appreciate your response(s). I'm only challenging most the things you say in order to gain a clearer perspective on things.

 

[ray_zorse]

Hey guys don't you think you are over analyzing here?

Look, the way things work is a little different here, we don't exactly have Greek life although we have what are called "colleges" which are rooming houses located on the campus and from what I recall having lived in one in my late teens there was something of a pecking order although it's basically out-of-towners who live in college, this is a city of 20 million ppl so most ppl live with parents or in share houses or whatnot. So with those caveats/differences in mind...

I simply fail to see why u cannot cold approach on campus? I don't really do it much although I have done some around the tram stop adjacent to campus. But I can't see why it wouldn't work. My uni has about 40,000 people IIRC so it is at least ballpark similar to what has been described above.

My only advice is, if u don't want to be known as the creepy PUA guy who does approached on campus, don't use the "totally cute" opener or at least not too much (I don't use it at raves either for the same reason), just go direct compliment.

I fail to see what is creepy or PUAish about stopping someone to deliver a sincere compliment in a confident voice tone, oftentimes this doesn't lead to a conversation but they simply go about their day having received some value from you. Other times it does. Nuff said.

Git approachin' dudes (I know fsc had been hitting daygame hard lately and finding it challenging despite being something of a master of college game, so I'd be keen to hear whether there's middle ground between the two).

cheers, Ray

 

[Anonymous]

I think these are all valid points. I have also read Conquer your Campus and what Mark says in his writing is not wrong, per se. It is very specific, however, to college environments. And when I say college environments, I mean college environments. As in, small college town, where there is little contact with the outside world, and a lot of people spend the majority of their time on campus, in their dorms and adjacent apartments, so on, so forth.

Some universities are in very remote towns or cities, where the social hub is essentially the college and its clubs and fraternities. Many are located in larger cities or near larger cities. I live in Southern California, and many of our universities are located in the middle of metropolitan and downtown areas. e.g. UCLA, USC, UCSD, UCSB… just to name a few. These types of universities do not have such an insulated environment, as many people may commute from farther away, live at home, are very much integrated into urban life, as opposed to say… a college town like University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. Very different geographical influence. Ditto goes for Ivy League and east coast universities in larger cities… Colombia, NYU, George Washington, etc…

What Conquer your Campus talks about is totally applicable to all colleges, but can vary significantly depending on how insulated the college environment is. I went to UCLA, and being located within Los Angeles, in one of the busiest parts of the city, is nothing like a "small college town" feel. Many students are disconnected from the college circles and frats, and have their own social circles from high school, work, and other outside clubs and social environments. There is less of an insulated social hierarchy in a school like UCLA, as opposed to a small college in the midwest. CYC advises you to use social circle in an environment like that because there are very real social repercussions from using a "machine-gun" approach to dating. You will quickly develop a bad reputation if you're not savvy and smooth enough.

What Chase advises and what CYC advises are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Either way, it is better not to focus on the words themselves, but the type of aura and vibe you project.

Your nonverbals are far more important than having the perfect words and witty lines to spit. Not that words don't matter, but your presence and your body language will project more about you than being the most articulate person out there. There are plenty of guys who are highly intelligent, with great speaking ability, but creep the shit out of women because they're headspace and emotional state is totally off.

It is far better to focus on maintaining good biochemistry/neurochemistry so that you naturally exude positive vibes, to work on your posture, your movements, the way you walk, how your voice sounds, your eye contact, your style of dress. If you can look like a chill, well-dressed and easygoing guy, you've already halfway there. If you take care of your body and your appearance, you're already one-upping 80% of men out there, especially on a college campus, where guys think casual wear means a raggedy T-shirt and a pair of basketball shorts.

To end this:

-Don't be a creep. Have fun and don't take yourself too seriously.
-Dress well. Don't have to be too fancy.
-Take care of your neurochemistry and your body. Eat healthy, get in the gym, and doing sports is always great.
-Be social for the sake of being social. Build social momentum. You don't have to try to seduce every single beautiful woman you see. Female friends can be very good social proof and connections to other beautiful women.
-Work on your nonverbals. Fundamentals. Fundamentals. Fundamentals.

Even if you never develop any "game", just being a "better" guy then 90% of the men out there, and being proactive about meeting women without being a weirdo, will get you results. I don't consciously "game" and my results are so much better when I'm not uptight and enjoying myself.

 

[Smith]

My school doesn't have a Greek system. It does however, have 15000+ students, so its respectably large. As far as the social attitude of the students goes, it seems that its exactly the way your school was. I've found some success meeting new people through parties and through more social circle oriented venues such as clubs, sports etc. But for the most part, people are already in more closed off social circles (I didn't start going to my current school until Junior year).

My uni is a college town with similar amount of students as yours. We pretty much make up most of the young crowd in the town. If you do decide to do daygame frequently, you'll find yourself meeting a lot of girls on campus fast, but every year there's new wave of students coming in, so I don't worry too much about running out of girls.

Ditch pickup. Just talk to people and flirt with girls more frequently during the day wherever you go. Be social. I think being in the pickup mindset is making you feel creepy because you're trying to take value. Focus on giving value. Non-verbals > verbals. Straight back, chest out, smile, sexy voice and good eye contact is pretty much all you need.
If anything, I found that meeting girls at campus is EASIER than meeting girls outside it.

 

[Bboy100]

Smith:

Everything in your post I 100% agree with and I like to think I work on all of it on a daily basis.

and being proactive about meeting women without being a weirdo, will get you results.

The quoted portion is the only part I struggle with. Only because using a direct opener has some of the issues I mentioned above, and it also gives out a "gamy" vibe. If I use an indirect opener in a non-social environment (most if not all of college day game), it gives out the vibe of," ok, why did this guy interrupt what I was doing or where I was going to talk to me, clearly, there's something he wants from me, but I can't tell exactly what."

Obviously, this is not true of all colleges. As fsc pointed out earlier, there are some colleges in which people are used to talking to each other for the sake of conversation and spreading good feelings, and there isn't always any other ulterior motive for it. But, my University, unless its a social environment, it seems to be a very "everyone keeps to himself and those they know" type of place.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and that's not what people are thinking. I'm pretty inexperienced in cold approaches, so I have relatively few reference points to go off of.

As for night game, I'm not 21 yet, so I can't go out to most venues. Parties definitely work way better then anything else I've seen so far, just because people expect strangers to talk to them for no reason other than for the sake of socializing. But realistically, I'm not yet part of any social circle which consistently has parties. So, I normally only go to one party weekly (if that). And one outing a week doesn't seem to be enough to improve my skill very much.

J.J.
I 100% agree with everything you said. Those are some good points. Obviously fundamentals and non-verbals are important. Regardless of the environment. As long as there's human interaction, they must be accounted for. I feel like GC does a very good job of explaining how to be a man who attracts women, and how to acquire those traits. I'm just more unsure of what plan of action to take. In other words, how do I "Be Social for the sake of being social" without being a creep.


ray_zorse

I fail to see what is creepy or PUAish about stopping someone to deliver a sincere compliment in a confident voice tone, oftentimes this doesn't lead to a conversation but they simply go about their day having received some value from you. Other times it does. Nuff said.

This is actually something I hadn't thought about. Any time I approached a girl thus far, I always felt like the idea is for it to turn into a conversation. I never really considered the idea of just throwing out a compliment and seeing where it goes from there. I actually like this mindset quite a bit.
My only question is then, do you have any guidelines for when I should try to make it into a conversation? Because I could go around throwing compliments to girls all day, and never starting a conversation, which is still nice, but it doesn't really move things forward and bring results.


Once again, thanks for all the help guys, all these comments have definitely given me something to think about.

 

[ray_zorse]

Good question BB (about when to make it more than just a compliment).

I say this having just 5min ago stopped a woman on the street and said "I just had to stop you and tell you you look good." I failed to make anything of this and that's exactly the problem, as you point out. But since she did in fact stop, and turn her body towards me, and chuckle a bit and thank me for the compliment I think it's safe to say I could have gone on with "I'm Raymond...".

I guess I had been out for too long already long gaming some Vietnamese women who work in various places and had things to do and was keen to get home... also I suppose didn't want to spoil it by introducing a PUAish gamey vibe, as you point out... was happy just adding value in this case.

But if you are specifically out to meet women then how they react to being stopped (= how good are your fundamentals and body language) and the compliment (= how good is your game) will be your guide.

cheers, Ray

 

[fsc]

This ended up being hella long because I basically scrolled through and addressed everything that I felt like addressing.

there's a notion of being in the same classes, knowing the same people, etc

Yeah, if the girl happens to be studying the same thing as you are. Other than that, on a campus of 43,000 students, the few times that I've run into girls who I've approached were either: when we were both walking to/from class or in line for food/snacks/whatever. If things didn't go too well, then it's not a big deal to simply change course to avoid seeing each other, or you can just look at your phone to ignore her. Ideally, you made everything go smoothly even if you were rejected, in which case it'd be healthy for you to just flash a smile or whatever.

That being that girls in college are often more concerned with status than hooking up. That is, if hooking up with a certain person (someone of low status or outside their social group) will jeopardize their social status, then they won't do it...What we (He and his mentor) realized is that girls in college want to figure out who top dog is.

I'm not saying that the statement is completely false (if a guy is objectively a total loser, then I doubt any sober girl will want to hook up with him), but it's a terrible generalization. Yes, there are girls (sorority or not) who care about status and reputation--I ran into a non-sorority girl whose LMR was the fact that my fraternity isn't "relevant". But even among the sorority girls, who I find to be generally more socially adept, I've met some who are super chill and don't give a shit about your status or affiliation. Some just don't care about climbing the social hierarchy, and they're cool with you as long as you're normal. Moreover, the majority these girls are 18-22 years old, so to me it just doesn't seem 100% right for someone to say that these young girls are so aware of social dynamics to the point that they consciously manage their status and search for "top dogs". I mean, I've met some hotties who were socially retarded. I've had a sorority vice president freeze up on my couch because she was a virgin and nervous as fuck, and some other socially inexperienced sorority girl who couldn't take a simple joke.

I could be wrong, but I just get this feeling that Redmen is a bit narrow-minded; I think he provides valid points here and there, but it feels like he's speaking from his and his mentor's experience alone in a smaller-university environment.

you simply must be of relatively high status in the group

Maybe, if you want to stay in the group. But if you're a nomad who's just wandering around from group to group, then you simply let your fundamentals and skills do the work. You just gotta manage how much you invest into the circle to remain on its peripherals, so that girls see no repercussions for hooking up with you (because they know you're not there to stay). What I mean by wandering from group to group is, for example: check out the salsa club for a few weeks and meet its girls without joining the club, then next quarter perhaps mingle with the babes in the robotics club (sarcasm).

Agreed. But that doesn't change the dynamic of social circle. If I really am a part of one huge group in college, then I would have to play by the rules of social circle, and not those of cold approach would I not?

Yeah, but ONLY IF Redmen's underlying assumption is true.

I'm unsure of how to describe all the non-verbals, only because there are so many that I'm not sure what you would look for.

Check out some field reports, especially these. Your adrenaline will prolly make it difficult to take note of everything at first, but basically, try to recall as much as possible.

But, basically, I use the exact same template on this website: Hey, I just saw you walking/sitting there, and I just had to come by and tell you that you have an impeccable sense of style. Hi, my name is Simeon.

That's pretty direct, albeit less direct than "blah blah you are gorgeous" because she may not be sure if you're interested in her or her style, unless your vibe and body language say so.

Maybe I am coming across too strong. But I'm unsure of what exactly causes that.

If you're relaxed, chill, and nonchalant (devil may care/outcome independent) then you're generally fine, but some specific stuff that I can think of right now are: the intensity of focus in your eyes, smile (eyes and lips), voice tone, speed of speech, body positioning (full-frontal vs at an angle), and proximity.

What do you mean by "tough questions"?

I dunno, super deep questions. What I'm trying to say is that you should keep conversation light early on.

Hey guys don't you think you are over analyzing here?

LOL yeah. But it's because I personally see all this seduction stuff as similar to boxing. For example, there are standard ways to dodge a punch in boxing: slip, weave, block, catch, step back, etc. Once you're good, then you can simply ignore the specifics, develop your own style like Mayweather or whoever, and just call it "letting the punch miss". I guess it's sorta similar to how Chase has the theory section in his articles, so that you have a stronger foundation for understanding whatever topic he's writing about. So yeah, I dunno. I just think it's helpful to over-analyze and look at all the technicalities and details, especially at the beginning.

I simply fail to see why u cannot cold approach on campus?

I think Redmen just had a bad college experience

I know fsc had been hitting daygame hard lately and finding it challenging despite being something of a master of college game, so I'd be keen to hear whether there's middle ground between the two

Actually, I primarily wander around LA doing day game and try to make the most of my frat's parties. I have limited experience approaching on campus and in bars/clubs. I've actually been refraining from cold approaching on campus because I've been afraid of coming across like a creeper or a wannabe-PUA and attracting a bad rep for my frat and myself. I feel better about approaching on campus now though, so hopefully I'll be able to get some cool reports up on my journal or the general reports section.

This was a recent realization of mine that helped me get more comfortable about approaching girls on campus, and it's another advice on how to not give off a creeper/PUA vibe: put all of your emotions into every approach. I think I saw a lot of success in the beginning because when I delivered a direct opener like "blah blah you're gorgeous", I really meant it, I was excited (I couldn't really get myself to be calm/socially-graceful sometimes), and I was genuinely interested in getting to know her. I'm sure girls picked up on that. After mass approaching and repeating similar lines a bunch of times, it became a robotic, emotionless process. I think I took outcome independence and the devil may care attitude to the extreme and simply became indifferent. So yeah, be genuine with your emotions whether it be excitement or sexual arousal or whatever, and let those emotions transfer to her. Try to make her feel special, rather than making her feel like you're a worthless player just doing another approach.

My only question is then, do you have any guidelines for when I should try to make it into a conversation? Because I could go around throwing compliments to girls all day, and never starting a conversation, which is still nice, but it doesn't really move things forward and bring results.

Make it into a conversation if you want to. Even if the girl doesn't stop and give you her attention at first, just be like "hold up, let me get your name" or whatever and see how far you can go. If she stops and turns her body towards you, then awesome.
Going off of Ray's approach, I suppose he could have asked her something like "I'm guessing you're headed somewhere exciting judging by your attire?" or some shit after the name exchange. Something light and relevant to start off.

 

[Bboy100]

Unfortunately, Mark Redman isn't on this forum to defend his ideas, and I don't want to write anything more in his name, because anything beyond quotes or main concepts could be a wrongful interpretation of his material on my part. Make no mistake, I don't necessarily think he's right, in fact, your ideas seem to be more in line with my college experience thus far.

Overall though, my personal experience in college (15000 students) is that here is some very loose sense of social circle. Definitely not one giant circle like what Redman would suggest, but rather a bunch of smaller social circles.
Based on your quote

What I mean by wandering from group to group is, for example: check out the salsa club for a few weeks and meet its girls without joining the club, then next quarter perhaps mingle with the babes in the robotics club (sarcasm).

I would guess you feel the same way?

I dunno, super deep questions. What I'm trying to say is that you should keep conversation light early on.

How does this idea lineup with Chase's concept of deep diving? Because if I remember correctly from his book, Chase recommends having some sort of light banter, but only for like a minute or two, if that. Then going straight into Deep Diving.

I have limited experience approaching on campus and in bars/clubs. I've actually been refraining from cold approaching on campus because I've been afraid of coming across like a creeper or a wannabe-PUA and attracting a bad rep for my frat and myself. I feel better about approaching on campus now though, so hopefully I'll be able to get some cool reports up on my journal or the general reports section.

This is probably the main thing holding me back from doing consistent approaches on Campus. Obviously, stakes aren't as high for me because I'm not in a Frat, but I could still ruin my own reputation.

How did you get over this problem? Is it because you're more experienced now, and you're more confident that these approaches will work in your favor? Or is it a mindset shift of some sort?

Make it into a conversation if you want to. Even if the girl doesn't stop and give you her attention at first, just be like "hold up, let me get your name" or whatever and see how far you can go. If she stops and turns her body towards you, then awesome.

Yeah, its easy to make it into a conversation. So my bad...What I really meant to ask is, how would I avoid making it into a conversation without having a creepy "gamey" vibe? I would guess based on some of the other answers you've written, its all about fundamentals?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm too lazy to address with pinpoint accuracy all of your questions, but I will try to hit on them as best as possible. Mind you, I am no guru, and I do not claim to be an expert. But if anything I say can help you, which is largely based on my personal experiences and anecdotes, all the better.

As for keeping conversation light:

It is very contextual. If you're meeting her on the street, on the boardwalk of your campus, where you're passing by and stopping her, she isn't expecting or necessarily inviting anyone to have a long winded conversation with her. She is most likely running errands, going to class, back to her dorm/apartment… in other words, she has a premeditated agenda, usually. Unless she is aimlessly wandering around, she has things on her mind. It is totally socially acceptable to take a minute or two of her time, but if she is in a hurry, you don't really want to have a full blown discussion with her about her childhood or what her hopes and dreams are. In these types of situations, off of a cold, cold approach, you're best keeping it short, but potent. Strong eye contact. Impeccable body language. But keep the conversation short and sweet. Direct/ situation openers are best. I'm not a big fan of indirect, because there is a very obvious reason you're stopping her. Preferably direct in most cases.

But the problem is most guys focus too much on the surface level "game". Inner game and all that hype over fixing yourself is overrated because guys use it as an excuse not to approach and take risks. But developing and enhancing your internal state and mindset is important, because you project what you think and believe. You need to work on being relaxed, easygoing and nonchalant. Your emotions are contagious, so the more you can coax your mind and body to be healthy and stable on a biological, neuro-chemical level, the better. You need to learn how to harness your emotional state and be able to project that state onto the women. They will catch your emotions, and they will be more likely to follow your lead, accept your advances, etc.

Redman's advice is very practical. While your campus may not be so interconnected, the more popular you become, or more notorious, the more you have to lose in terms of social value. The bubble of social status may be constructed, but it is very real in a college setting. Unless you only date women who are outliers themselves, or those who hang around the fringes of these social groups, the women you meet will quickly learn of your existence if you approach enough/date enough. This of course can be good or bad, depending on whether you handle it well or not.

While I wouldn't say you can't cold approach, you don't necessarily need to run social circle game. It just happens to be useful and can actually help you get women more easily if you have a good system in place.

You don't have to be part of a frat or anything, but if you can make friends with frat guys, befriend sorority girls, get invited to their parties and develop connections into Greek life/social clubs, then great!

You just have to remember that you need to be more social, period, without being weird. What does that mean? Being chill, relaxed, and having no hidden agenda. You need to have a clear focus. Personally, I don't have a goal of "picking up women" whenever I go out. It just helps me to be more nonchalant and free. Of course, I have worked on myself to the point where walking and talking with a sexual vibe and looking confident in my body language is second nature.

I have practically automated everything that I possibly can, to generate "passive value" (I hate using these terms, but just for explication purposes I will use them). You don't want to be consciously thinking about whether you look good, or you sound ok, or if you're posture is strong, etc. That will make you self-conscious and you will tighten up and your resting emotional state will go to pieces. Develop your fundamentals of body language, vocal tonality, eye contact, your walk and your style… for starters. These must be second nature, because you can't waste mental energy and stress yourself over these things when you're in a social environment. Get it handled. Once it's second nature, even when you feel a bit down or you don't necessarily feel in the best mood, it'll be part of you.

Your mindset when you meet a woman should be something along these lines:

"Wow, she is absolutely beautiful. She looks like an interesting person. I want to get to know her. Maybe we'll hit it off. But let's find out."

Keep in mind, no matter how smooth you get, no matter how chill and laid-back you are, some women will still find you creepy. But that gets mitigated and the chance you run into a woman like that gets smaller and smaller as you become more and more charming and charismatic. As long as you're relaxed and you're not staring at her like a serial killer, you shouldn't have any problems with being considered "creepy" for the most part.

If you are honest and very chill about it, as in you're not serious and you have a easygoing expression and warm eye contact, you won't creep women out. Really. Being honest about your intentions is how you avoid being creepy.

eg.

Me: "Hi, excuse me. I know this is forward of me, but I wanted to come over and meet you because I find you incredibly beautiful. You have great style. My name is Jonathan, what's yours?"

If you're fundamentals are tight, you're not overly aggressive and you put her at ease with your chill vibe, 99% of the time, she will be cool with it. You won't creep her out. As long as you don't ask her weird shit and keep it light at first. If she seems open, you can offer to hang out, grab a coffee, a bite to eat, and then ask for the number. If she rejects you, no big deal. Take it in stride.

eg.

Her: "Thanks, you're sweet. But I have a boyfriend."

Me: "And I totally respect that. I simply wanted to let you know that I really appreciate your style. It was nice meeting you!"

Handling rejection smoothly and honestly is really important. Because even if she remembers you, because you were socially savvy and chill about it, you won't become that creeper. If you give off that vibe of someone who is just "on the make" (just trying to have sex) then that's where you'll run into problems. But if you're that man that just loves women and appreciates their beauty, you'll be hard pressed to find someone who will have a problem with that.

 

[fsc]

Definitely not one giant circle like what Redman would suggest, but rather a bunch of smaller social circles...I would guess you feel the same way?

Yeah, I edited in this statement a few minutes after I posted my first response, but I added "So I feel like my university is more like a bunch of [smaller] social circles linked together very loosely, since many students will belong to more than one group [and they sorta link separate circles together]. It feels very far from a "tribal community", however."

How does this idea lineup with Chase's concept of deep diving? Because if I remember correctly from his book, Chase recommends having some sort of light banter, but only for like a minute or two, if that. Then going straight into Deep Diving.

That's pretty much what I meant. Keep the conversation light for a minute or two after meeting the girl, then deep dive a little bit based on some of the information you obtained from the light banter. Also keep this in mind, and on a similar line of thought to what JJ said ("you don't really want to have a full blown discussion with her about her childhood or what her hopes and dreams are"): try not to deep dive too much or too deep on a single topic. Save those for later when you two are hanging out or on a date. For example:

Her: I just moved here two weeks ago from New Hampshire

Stuff like "I see...well, what do you think about LA so far?" or "Hmm...why LA? Do you have family here, or is it for work, or...?" are reasonable follow-up questions and continuing off of those for a few more exchanges is fine. However, it's weird for someone who just met her to ask something like "If you could move anywhere else, where would it be?", and it's also weird to be on this thread for more than a minute.

How did you get over this problem? Is it because you're more experienced now, and you're more confident that these approaches will work in your favor? Or is it a mindset shift of some sort?

I haven't overcome it yet. I said I would start approaching on campus last quarter, but I kept myself back because I felt like I was missing something. I mentioned this in my previous post, but I feel like the missing "piece" was the fact that I wasn't putting any emotions into my approaches. It's a mixture of experience and mindset shift. Out of the ~150 cold approaches I've had so far (almost all of them were mass approaches with no prior indicators of interest from the girl), I've received less than 10 negative responses, and the worst one was when some MILF rolled her eyes and walked away after my opener. So this sorta reassures me that I generally won't creep girls out. Furthermore, the bad responses were usually a result of me screwing up somewhere--even with that MILF worst case, I was standing around and scanning, then I pounced on her.This article, especially the parts about being alone, helped me break off from feeling tied down by my fraternity. It just made me feel more free about doing whatever I want.

What I really meant to ask is, how would I avoid making it into a conversation without having a creepy "gamey" vibe? I would guess based on some of the other answers you've written, its all about fundamentals?

Adding a bit to JJ's response, I ask the girls what they're up to early on if I stopped them walking, so I can gauge how much time I have with them. If they're busy, then I go for a number close. Some time around fall, I told myself that I'd aim for an instant date if they seemed free, but that only happened on two occasions that I recall for sure. The old habit of number closing the girls I cold approach during the day didn't die hard. Also try not to ask too many questions in a row, especially logistical questions like "are you from around here?", "what are you up to?", "what's your schedule like for this week?" etc. That's creepy even if you opened her direct and she knows your intentions.

 

[ray_zorse]

Instead of "what are you up to now?" try "It looks like you're taking your lunch break / doing a bit of shopping / texting a friend to meet up / going out to eat with friends / going clubbing / etc" and try to maintain this style of questions phrased as statements (which actually invite her to qualify herself) as asking questions looks beta and needy, the time to ask questions is probably the deep dive, she'll enjoy the attention if she's past the hook point I suppose (but you can also deep dive with statements/assumptions to some extent).

cheers, Ray

 

[Bboy100]

Thanks for all the advice everyone. Its definitely really helpful. I guess the whole "coming off as creepy" thing is something I project onto women because I feel like I would find it creepy if someone did that kind of approach on me. And I feel like my brain is just making up excuses for me because the few times I did do a direct approach, I was absolutely terrified. Even just thinking about the concept of doing direct approaches makes me anxious.

Ok, a couple more questions if you guys are up to it.
#1 Do you guys know why I find direct openers so much more uncomfortable? Like, when I do any other type, I feel uncomfortable, but not "terrified" as I described it above. And more importantly, can that problem be fixed?

#2 Any tips for dealing with approach anxiety in general? If I'm already next to a girl (I.e. sitting next to her on the bus) and she isn't otherwise engaged, I can usually talk to her. But if I actually have to MOVE to her location, or she seems otherwise preoccupied with something (even if it's just headphones), my anxiety goes waay up, and I often talk myself out of it with some lame excuse or I just freeze up.

Like, its so dumb...earlier today, I was at a Chipotle in a mall, and there was this girl I wanted to meet who was literally sitting there staring at her phone alone. I easily could have just came up and taken a seat next to her. But my mind's excuse was "You're not here to meet women". And for some reason after debating with myself about it for like 2 mins, my emotions bought into it and I walked out without even saying hi. LOL.

I've read pretty much all the articles on this site & more on the topic, but I still can't seem to get over it. I've made some small advances over the years...yes, years ( I used to be anxious just being in the presence of women, let alone actually talking to them). But I still can't consistently approach any girl I want to.

-Simeon

 

[Anonymous]

Direct openers are hard if you're not comfortable being honest. Or if you don't feel congruent.

Direct is the most straightforward, you can't hide behind the excuse that you want her opinion on something or that you're simply making conversation… your intent is out in the open and you're exposing yourself to rejection without subterfuge.

That's why you have to be absolutely rock solid in your frame if you want a direct opener to stick. Sure, you can deliver direct openers even if you're not confident and you're not congruent. But the power of direct lies in your internal mindset and beliefs. If you are weak, you won't be able to hold your "frame", and she'll see right through your facade. You can't waver when you're direct.

That's why you get so damn scared doing direct. You're exposing your desire without the ruse of being just "social". You're expressing your interest and making yourself vulnerable. You're being honest.

Being honest is the hardest way to go about things, but it will help you improve the quickest. It will force you to come to grips with your own shortcomings and weaknesses. Plus, you'll get your "no" much faster than if you went indirect.

Although personally, I avoid being overly direct with my words in many situations. If I know I will see this girl around, I will use innocuous, platonic, neutral language and be extremely implicit direct. My eye contact, my sexual vibe will be on point, but my words will be absolutely devoid of any suggestiveness or intention. It's useful to going under the radar, because while your nonverbals are screaming at her, your words are harmless. But because of emotional contagion, she will feel your desire and will catch your feelings, and it'll drive her crazy because she can't call you out on it

Hardcore direct style is useful for day game, street game.

Again, I feel like I'm repeating myself too much, but I'll say it again. If you're honest and socially tactful in the way you approach girls, you will RARELY be blown out, if ever. If a girl blows you out, she has a serious problem. She's either socially inept or a legitimate bitch (and I do not throw that word around lightly). But those are so few and far in between… Most beautiful women are actually very sweet and if you give them a genuine compliment and treat them like human beings, even if you get a "no", you will not creep them out. If anything, you'll make them feel good and brighten their mood because you are one of the few men that can appreciate a woman's beauty in a classy way.

 

[ray_zorse]

+1 to J.J.

I just want to add that another source of approach anxiety (for me at least, in the early days) is the feeling that I will go in hard (direct) and then not be able to back it up conversation wise... that I'll either be intimidated and do/say inept things or be lost for words... I solved this by practicing conversation with everyone I met for 3-5 months until I basically had things down (a process for successful conversation which can be adapted to nearly any situation, see my journal for a challenging one today that I solved by adapting my process). IMO conversation is one of your most important fundamentals so work on it

Other than that, treat your first 3 approaches as practice and maybe don't go direct if you're not feeling it. I'm more likely to go direct when I'm warmed up and I tend to favour direct tailored compliment, "totally cute" feels a bit rehearsed to me since I have done so many of them but I still get it out sometimes when the situation seems to warrant it. Anyway, momentum momentum momentum my brother

cheers, Ray

 

[fsc]

#2 Any tips for dealing with approach anxiety in general?

Personally, I just said "FUCK IT" and started cold approaching. You don't conquer a fear by sitting around and debating with your mind; you conquer it by tackling that fucker head-on. There were times when I screwed up horribly:

Me: Excuse me, I had to come tell you that you look gorgeous...are you single by any chance?
Her: Hahaha, thanks! Yeah, actually!
Me: Oh...I see...Cool...

Then I turned around and walked away because I didn't know what to say. This actually happened twice LOL. I used the "Are you single?" opener heavily early on and most girls were "no"s, so I was legitimately dazed when I finally got a "yes". But I learned from this and I was able to converse after my subsequent "yes"s.

The point is, keep the devil may care attitude and outcome independence in mind and say "FUCK IT" and just do it. You will fuck up here and there, especially early on, but it's inevitable; it's part of the game, and it's how you learn. Mastery is the result of good experiences, and good experiences are results of lessons learned from failures. So don't take things too seriously and learn to laugh at yourself. Failures may feel like shit initially, but eventually it'll start being funny like "Hmm, I thought I had her...I guess I fucked up somewhere LOL".

If you're honest and socially tactful in the way you approach girls, you will RARELY be blown out, if ever...Most beautiful women are actually very sweet and if you give them a genuine compliment and treat them like human beings, even if you get a "no", you will not creep them out. If anything, you'll make them feel good and brighten their mood because you are one of the few men that can appreciate a woman's beauty in a classy way.

I just wanted to reiterate this because it's how things are; I can totally back this. Copy and paste this into your brain.

I easily could have just came up and taken a seat next to her.

This isn't very tactful because there's a chance that she may not be interested, and you end up being a social burden for her. I'd personally just direct open her, then ask "do you mind if I join you for a few minutes?" This clarifies your intentions, and saying that you'll just be a few minutes puts her at ease and lets her know you won't be one of those guys who locks her in boring, aimless conversations. Also, being calm and speaking slowly with plenty of pauses will let her know that she can interject at any time to excuse herself.

I used to be anxious just being in the presence of women, let alone actually talking to them

Same here. 2 years ago, I was one of those needy guys at parties who would cling onto other guys to play foosball and shit with because I was way too scared of girls. Lols.

Don't beat yourself up if it takes years to learn this. Some guys take longer than others, and some start later than others. Be proud of yourself for taking action and persevere. You are already ballsier and more socially skilled than the majority of men, and you'll soon be among the elite.

 

[Bboy100]

Direct is the most straightforward, you can't hide behind the excuse that you want her opinion on something or that you're simply making conversation… your intent is out in the open and you're exposing yourself to rejection without subterfuge.

This is a good point. I used to be a salesman, and my company would make me do super pushy things, like insist 7 or 8 times that I stay in their house and continue my demonstration of my product even if the customers are screaming at me to get out (this was a door to door sales job), but I personally never agreed with the practices of my company, so I could always justify it to myself with "I'm just taking orders". As a result, I felt a lot less anxious then if I would've had I decided to take this practice up on my own. On the other hand, I feel like approaching women is a little closer linked to my identity (especially direct openers)...although its still not really my identity, its just the skill level (or lack therof in this case) of my approach. But it still kinda has that feel to it. So, thank you for pointing that out. Cause I've always wondered why I was able to do waaay ballsier things as a salesman than giving a girl a compliment. Now I think I finally figured out why.

IMO conversation is one of your most important fundamentals so work on it

Indeed. Although I actually think the above sales job took care of that for me, cause part of the presentation was getting to know the customer. So now, I can pretty fluently hold a convo with most people. What I need more work on is my frame rather than the content of the convo itself.

Failures may feel like shit initially, but eventually it'll start being funny like "Hmm, I thought I had her...I guess I fucked up somewhere LOL".

I'm actually in this really interesting place right now, where, when I do mess up, I feel terrible for the first 10 secs, but then after the initial shock is over, I start to find it funny in the way you describe. I just feel like I need to be careful that i'm laughing at the situation and not her cause going into auto-rejection and being bitter doesn't help anyone.


Thanks again for the help guys.