Should Every Date End in a Lay?

Colt Williams

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This is something that I've been thinking about for a while (and something only advanced men would be able to clearly speak on).

In this good ole dating game, men are often encouraged to sleep with as many women as possible, and even as they advance, as long as they are attracted to a woman etc, having a lay in the hay is ultimately seen as a good thing.

But over these last few years in my advanced phase, I've wondered about that. When you're a high-value men, it's easy for women to become obsessive (sometimes really obsessive). I can often see it in a girl's eyes. Not that she's crazy per se, but that she doesn't encounter a true high-value man very often (or perhaps ever) and that she's going to fall hard. And for me, I've dealt with girls experiencing extreme levels of heartbreak over one date or sleeping together one night or have seen a lot of my advanced friends get so much blow back, so much ire, for sleeping with a girl only once or twice and then just not being interested any more that nowadays I feel like it's sometimes better to let sleeping dogs lie -- (and these are men who are charming, great with women and just genuinely friendly guys).

Even if I meet a girl who's attractive and cool, if I can feel that "switch" in her, I might choose to pass up the opportunity and live to fight another day with someone who is more used to my level. Sometimes it's just not worth the trouble of someone being so hurt (especially if it's someone in the place you live who can poison the well for you...can't tell you how many guys have called me about that).

Do you other advanced gents have thoughts on this?
 

Seppuku

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Hey Colt, very interesting question. I had never given a thought about that, but now you made me think.

Most of the time the girls I've met had the experience necessary to handle the "situation" so everything was cool, enjoyable and no heartbreak. And that was probably 90% of the cases at least.

But once in a while, there was one girl as you describe, with the potential to fall hard. Either I found out after the deed (when I was less experienced), and when I realize it I would let her go. Or I found out before, and then simply not insist and pass on.
 

ZacAdam

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When you're a high-value men, it's easy for women to become obsessive (sometimes really obsessive
It might sound asshole.

But we have discussions on money recently. How the girl sees you?

As in does she sees you with a bmw or more to posh places or intangible, your demeanor and more to high level friends friends?

I need to know. The nuance is impt for me.
 

Grand Pooba

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This is something that I've been thinking about for a while (and something only advanced men would be able to clearly speak on).

In this good ole dating game, men are often encouraged to sleep with as many women as possible, and even as they advance, as long as they are attracted to a woman etc, having a lay in the hay is ultimately seen as a good thing.

But over these last few years in my advanced phase, I've wondered about that. When you're a high-value men, it's easy for women to become obsessive (sometimes really obsessive). I can often see it in a girl's eyes. Not that she's crazy per se, but that she doesn't encounter a true high-value man very often (or perhaps ever) and that she's going to fall hard. And for me, I've dealt with girls experiencing extreme levels of heartbreak over one date or sleeping together one night or have seen a lot of my advanced friends get so much blow back, so much ire, for sleeping with a girl only once or twice and then just not being interested any more that nowadays I feel like it's sometimes better to let sleeping dogs lie -- (and these are men who are charming, great with women and just genuinely friendly guys).

Even if I meet a girl who's attractive and cool, if I can feel that "switch" in her, I might choose to pass up the opportunity and live to fight another day with someone who is more used to my level. Sometimes it's just not worth the trouble of someone being so hurt (especially if it's someone in the place you live who can poison the well for you...can't tell you how many guys have called me about that).

Do you other advanced gents have thoughts on this?
At what stage in your advanced game have you started to realize this, and what brought it on? I assume somewhere above the 100 count mark; but where in context and how did it come up? Are you so confident in your ability to sleep with girls that you can basically have it whenever you want to, and would rather avoid it to avoid leading a girl down the other path?

This sounds to me like the truest form of abundance and indicates an extremely high level and calibrated game, meaning 9/10 of your dates/leads can end in sex potentially.
 

Colt Williams

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At what stage in your advanced game have you started to realize this, and what brought it on? I assume somewhere above the 100 count mark; but where in context and how did it come up? Are you so confident in your ability to sleep with girls that you can basically have it whenever you want to, and would rather avoid it to avoid leading a girl down the other path?
This is an interesting question. Yeah, I would say somewhere in the 150's maybe? That's probably where it started. And it came up because outside of dating I have developed my abilities/success in many other areas of life (and I also have some natural aptitudes that people seem to find impressive) so my social proof is often through the roof. And I have this mesmeric effect on women oftentimes. Like they're just hypnotized. It's not that I'm the best looking man, or the most buff, or wealthy etc but my game is strong combined with the fact that I'm well-spoken, am in fantastic shape and have a natural knack for people. So I noticed girls I'd sleep with one time saying things like "I feel like I hit the jackpot" or "You're the most amazing man I've ever met" or "I feel like I'm dating up" etc etc etc.

Sometimes I'd think to myself "damn girl, it's been 1 or 2 dates." And some girls would fall HARD, or get very angry, even if I was completely upfront about my intentions etc etc.

And yeah, it's not that I don't get caught in the loop of "wanting" women, we all do. But yeah man, nowadays I have experiences where I truly do not care. I was out with GORGEOUS woman last week (even my friends were trying to get her info from me, HA!), and we were having a great time, and she's very nice and smart but I just wasn't 'feeling' it. And I could tell the hypnosis was setting in again and she was another fragile one. So, I just took her home, gave her a big hug, and carried on with my life. But now she's been texting me a bunch "let's do this...I had an amazing time...take me out again..." blah blah. And I'm like "eh, whatever." There are other women in my life. And there will always be more.

So it's not that I don't want to sleep with women, it's just that I really feel quite fulfilled in my life right now, and I think women feel that. Combine that with already strong game and people skills, and it's a dangerous cocktail. And sometimes, girls get so angry, feel so let down after such a short period of time that I'm like "yeesh, I have to approach with caution." It's not every woman, but enough of the ones that are my type. I also in my advancing years have come to value intimacy more. Even if I'm just hooking up with someone, if there's no connection at all, it just feels hollow, even if she's hot. And so, even with gorgeous women, I'm still qualifying them as much as they are me, and again I think women sense this and get invested in a different way when they know they have to prove themselves.

I'm curious is @Chase has thoughts.

But once in a while, there was one girl as you describe, with the potential to fall hard. Either I found out after the deed (when I was less experienced), and when I realize it I would let her go. Or I found out before, and then simply not insist and pass on.
Yeah, I hear ya. This is how I feel as well, it just seems that it's happening more often these days, so it's been more at the forefront of my mind.

It might sound asshole.

But we have discussions on money recently. How the girl sees you?

As in does she sees you with a bmw or more to posh places or intangible, your demeanor and more to high level friends friends?

I need to know. The nuance is impt for me.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but women don't see me as a "baller" by any means. I don't drive fancy cars, etc. But I do have lots and lots of social proof, I carry myself very well, I'm genuinely happy with myself (on most days) and I'm well known in my community
 

Bacchus

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Maybe consider talking about sexual maturity and setting discretion frames during your dates.

You could pace her reality with a discussion on certain difficulties. . . women might have when it comes to meeting new people. Because of those obnoxious dudes who brag about the girls they sex with. Or tell a story about a crazy experience a buddy had with an obsessive chick.

The obsessive chick and those braggarts should be framed in a negative light. Something akin to. . . immature pests in the collective dating pool. What's more is the topic of sexual maturity. . . is just a step away from a conversation centered on the beauty of discretion.

I've used this SOT to set lots of good frames in my seductions. I've also flipped this type of frame-control into personal boundaries with flings and relationships. She is free to agree or disagree with these perspectives during the date. But if she does comply it can help set the tone any ensuing sexual relationship. And enforcing boundaries are a crucial part of healthy relationships. So she must respect them. . . or the relationship is over.

Suppose you have a ONS or a quick fling. . . and afterwards she goes around trying to poison the well? Anyone who asks you can hear the truth. "Well I told her I value discretion but unfortunately. . . she didn't respect this personal boundary."

Now I'm a pretty hardcore sigma and prefer to game in cities where I have anonymity. . . so I really like being discrete. Say I was in your position and a new girl I took on a date brought up that incident. I'd say some version of the above and tell her that girl was immature. Before steering the conversation towards sexual maturity. On the other hand. . . it could be time to move if your environment makes you feel like a big fish in a small pond.
 
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Skills

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This is something that I've been thinking about for a while (and something only advanced men would be able to clearly speak on).

In this good ole dating game, men are often encouraged to sleep with as many women as possible, and even as they advance, as long as they are attracted to a woman etc, having a lay in the hay is ultimately seen as a good thing.

But over these last few years in my advanced phase, I've wondered about that. When you're a high-value men, it's easy for women to become obsessive (sometimes really obsessive). I can often see it in a girl's eyes. Not that she's crazy per se, but that she doesn't encounter a true high-value man very often (or perhaps ever) and that she's going to fall hard. And for me, I've dealt with girls experiencing extreme levels of heartbreak over one date or sleeping together one night or have seen a lot of my advanced friends get so much blow back, so much ire, for sleeping with a girl only once or twice and then just not being interested any more that nowadays I feel like it's sometimes better to let sleeping dogs lie -- (and these are men who are charming, great with women and just genuinely friendly guys).

Even if I meet a girl who's attractive and cool, if I can feel that "switch" in her, I might choose to pass up the opportunity and live to fight another day with someone who is more used to my level. Sometimes it's just not worth the trouble of someone being so hurt (especially if it's someone in the place you live who can poison the well for you...can't tell you how many guys have called me about that).

Do you other advanced gents have thoughts on this?

Yes, this is huge problem, even if you give them a million disclaimers and reminders "i live an alternative lifestyle" "you should keep dating other guys i am not looking for anything serious" "i don't do monogamy" and the likes, is like after couple of lays or even one lay they get extremely attach or they totally run away to avoid getting heartbreak....

And you do not have to sleep with every girl, i totally pass on girls were i speculate may bring issues such as what you describe all the time...
 

Skills

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This is an interesting question. Yeah, I would say somewhere in the 150's maybe? That's probably where it started. And it came up because outside of dating I have developed my abilities/success in many other areas of life (and I also have some natural aptitudes that people seem to find impressive) so my social proof is often through the roof. And I have this mesmeric effect on women oftentimes. Like they're just hypnotized. It's not that I'm the best looking man, or the most buff, or wealthy etc but my game is strong combined with the fact that I'm well-spoken, am in fantastic shape and have a natural knack for people. So I noticed girls I'd sleep with one time saying things like "I feel like I hit the jackpot" or "You're the most amazing man I've ever met" or "I feel like I'm dating up" etc etc etc.

Sometimes I'd think to myself "damn girl, it's been 1 or 2 dates." And some girls would fall HARD, or get very angry, even if I was completely upfront about my intentions etc etc.

And yeah, it's not that I don't get caught in the loop of "wanting" women, we all do. But yeah man, nowadays I have experiences where I truly do not care. I was out with GORGEOUS woman last week (even my friends were trying to get her info from me, HA!), and we were having a great time, and she's very nice and smart but I just wasn't 'feeling' it. And I could tell the hypnosis was setting in again and she was another fragile one. So, I just took her home, gave her a big hug, and carried on with my life. But now she's been texting me a bunch "let's do this...I had an amazing time...take me out again..." blah blah. And I'm like "eh, whatever." There are other women in my life. And there will always be more.

So it's not that I don't want to sleep with women, it's just that I really feel quite fulfilled in my life right now, and I think women feel that. Combine that with already strong game and people skills, and it's a dangerous cocktail. And sometimes, girls get so angry, feel so let down after such a short period of time that I'm like "yeesh, I have to approach with caution." It's not every woman, but enough of the ones that are my type. I also in my advancing years have come to value intimacy more. Even if I'm just hooking up with someone, if there's no connection at all, it just feels hollow, even if she's hot. And so, even with gorgeous women, I'm still qualifying them as much as they are me, and again I think women sense this and get invested in a different way when they know they have to prove themselves.

I'm curious is @Chase has thoughts.



Yeah, I hear ya. This is how I feel as well, it just seems that it's happening more often these days, so it's been more at the forefront of my mind.



I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but women don't see me as a "baller" by any means. I don't drive fancy cars, etc. But I do have lots and lots of social proof, I carry myself very well, I'm genuinely happy with myself (on most days) and I'm well known in my community

^ cosy had a post and razor jack as well in the other forum talking about similar issues (is just that the forum is virus infected so i will not be able to link) ^ i totally have experienced everything that you wrote.... How old are you???you don't have to be too specific, if you don't want to... this happens as you get a bit older...
 

Grand Pooba

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How old are you???you don't have to be too specific, if you don't want to... this happens as you get a bit older...
It seems to me like this happens after guys cross the 100 mark or cross 33 years of age. Is that accurate?
 

Skills

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It seems to me like this happens after guys cross the 100 mark or cross 33 years of age. Is that accurate?

no way! that is too young and the lay count too low! i would say after 40 for me way more lays than that... I want to ask the poster the age as well, to gauge also the sex drive (sex drive also plays a factor)
 

naturalmikey

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i’ll be 38 later this month. if there’s not a sexual vibe i’ll still ask her over when i’m done with the date. but i won’t put effort into trying to spark a sexual vibe if i’m not feeling it. but regardless i’ll invite her over. if she comes over i escalate then. i’m always surprised how many girls come over and fuck when there’s no connection. but they all don’t and i’m not gonna do all the work anymore. basically the offer is on the table regardless but i really don’t care.

yeah 100 girls isn’t much at all for community guys who are halfway decent. it is a lot for n AFC, as they were called.
 

Skills

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Well remember sometimes there is no connection on your end, but on their end there is massive projection of connection and feelings and the rest...

I was at the club and met a hungarian ex stripper, and all of a sudden she started crying, and she said she never felt this "connection with anybody before" as i was pulling her she started massively crying, gave me a kiss and ran to an ubber.... I ran into her yesterday and she explained what i suspected, she knew she would fall really hard , and it took her 7 years to move on from someone she felt in love with... Yesterday i ran into her again, We were making out and i could have pulled her, totally passed, i just don't want to deal with this shit... As much as all of us have heard (based on another post going on in the forum) "we have no heart" "we are narcisist" "you have the heart of rock" "all we care is about ourseves" you will never see posts like this, or guys passing on lays and the likes from average joes.... I always say it women are better of meeting seducers...
 

Grand Pooba

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I always say it women are better of meeting seducers...
This is one of the ironies as you grow in game - as much as they publicly denounce wanting to meet game savvy or educated men (even PUAs) for their own reputations (selfish but sensible), when they often meet such a guy who is attractive and calibrated and leads well, it's a huge breath of fresh air and they can't help but fall in love really fast.
 

Chase

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@Colt Williams,

Good topic.

I'm curious is @Chase has thoughts.
I think part of what happens mostly is that every guy passes out of that point where pickup is central to his identity.

When picking up girls is key to your identity, you try to maximize your notch count by sleeping with any girl who is not totally unfortunate looking, regardless a lot of other potential red flag issues.

Like:

  • Will she get clingy? It's okay, I'll figure it out, I think I can lay this girl
  • Is she nuts? She can't be that bad. It looks like I can get a lay
  • Does this girl give me weird vibes I can't put my finger on? I'm sure it's nothing, she seems like she's DTF

Because you're so focused on 'get the lay' as this sort of personal benchmark of success or not, all other things move to the background.

But at some point you wake up and realize, "I did it. I reached the point I wanted to reach with women," and the motivation to always get laid at all costs starts to recede. The part of your identity attached to pickup fades away. Then it is something you know how to do, rather than something that defines who you are.

You also have enough of these situations where women get hurt or they cause you problems that you start walking away from situations where there's the potential there for one of those things to happen and you're just not feeling it with her.

The clingy/in-love girls you talked about (and also @Seppuku and @Skills) are one of the big ones.

Other ones for me:

  • If I start to think she's crazy... in a dangerous or problematic way. Crazy girls are often clingy girls, but even if they're not, they carry all kinds of risks with them anyway. I don't want some girl who's going to punch holes in my condoms, or steal something from my pad because she's a kleptomaniac. If I get any sense of any of that (e.g., she tells me some weird story about one of her exes or she admits she used to steal stuff in high school because it was fun and I don't have a good read on whether that phase of her life is really over or not), I'll walk.

  • If she starts talking about any kind of abuse scenarios. She was raped, she had an abusive ex (or, worse, a string of abusive exes), her stepfather molested her... I don't go looking for any of this info, and if it comes out before I've slept with her I am not going to sleep with her. These girls tend to have really whacked out emotions, and they're a lot more likely to (falsely) accuse you of sexual violence or sexual assault or any of a host of other things you didn't actually do than the general female population is.

  • If I don't feel like she is actually into me, and I'm not either very horny or super into her. Like @naturalmikey said... I do get a thrill out of shagging girls who weren't super into me, if they're very hot. I will go for it with these girls, and if I get it, it still feels like a coup. Skill over fundamentals (or instinctive attraction)! My longest relationship was with a very beautiful girl who was really only interested in talking and hanging out with me, but when I got her back to my place, kissed her, and took my shirt off, she decided "What the heck, I'll go along with it" and we went to bed. Great girl, and great relationship. But if I'm with a girl and she's clearly not into it at all, and I don't think she's beautiful (maybe she's only kinda cute), but she is still following me around and compliant, I am not going to bother to invite her back, even if I think I might be able to pull off the lay. I just don't want to spend more time with a not-that-hot girl who maybe will hook up with me or maybe won't, and in any event isn't really into it. (and sometimes girls will surprise you... they weren't feeling it, but then you get them into bed and suddenly they get super turned on. This is especially the case for the distracted girls who are off in their own heads and aren't really thinking about men too much... they don't realize it's sex time until they're right up on it. But you also get girls who were 'whatever' about it before sex, and continue to be 'whatever' about it during sex, and that is really disappointing)

  • Girls who annoy me in some way. This is less of a red flag and more of a just "I can't even bother with it" scenario. If she goes on a rant about politics, we are probably not going to shag. I will keep my mouth shut, because no good has ever come from arguing politics with a woman, but we will often have very different impressions by the end of the date. She will assume I must've agreed with her rant, or she'll have totally forgotten about it, and may be ready to head back to mine... meanwhile I'll be put off and will be telling her "All right. It's been fun. Catch you later" and she'll never hear from me again. Or if she starts doing or talking about or showing me something I am weirded out by. Your scruples go down a bit as a seducer (lol), but I still do not like chest or sleeve tattoos on women, for instance, and if she shows me those we are almost certainly not gonna shag (just can't bring myself to do it). Or breast implants... that's another one I really do not like. If I don't know they're implants until we get back to my place, I'll take one for the team and shag her, but if I figure it out before we go back she is probably not getting the D.

When I was in my "gotta get a notch, whatever the cost!" phase I would overlook this stuff and go for the lay anyway.

Because, I wanted lays. Each additional lay was another feather in my cap. And more proof to myself that I was good, and had good game, and could seduce women.

Once I was out of that phase, my emotions in these situations shifted to "Eh... do I really want to deal with this girl's crap? Is a half hour in her pussy worth the stuff I am going to have to put up with to get there / after?"

Because at that point you are not thinking about notch counting, and you are only thinking about "What am I doing this for? For the pussy. Is the pussy worth it? No."

There's a similar pattern in entrepreneurship.

When you're a novice entrepreneur, once you get your first business working reasonably well, people and opportunities start coming out of the woodwork. Everyone wants to work with you, and you get a lot of great ideas coming at you.

At first you think, "Oh man, these are all terrific ideas! I'm sure I can work on all of them."

I even read about this tendency before I was an entrepreneur, and sensibly chuckled to myself and said "Certainly when I am an entrepreneur, no such silliness will come over me!"

But once you get there, you feel like "Whoa, there are so many ways to build businesses. And actually I am sort of okay at this. Surely I should not pass up these chances!"

So you take on all these projects, and you're fairly indiscriminate about it. And you overload yourself, and many of the projects end up being more trouble than they're worth.

Within a 1-year span between 2011 and 2012 I was running:

  • Girls Chase
  • A real estate business
  • An admissions consulting business
  • An SEO AdWords business
  • A by-invitation social club for elites
  • A conversions optimization consultancy
  • Another real estate business

... at every point at least 3 of these businesses at a time.

By the end of that 1-year stretch I was completely spent. I'd way overtaxed myself; all my projects suffered because none of them had my full attention; and while they were all good opportunities, many of them had issues, most of which I had sort of sensed from the get-go but tried to ignore because I wanted the successful business.

It works the same way with girls.

After you shag enough problem girls, and deal with the fallout from that, you start to pay a lot more attention to the red flags and listen to your gut on them. Whereas your notch blindness (or pussy blindness) made you ignore them before, now you see them loud and clear and say to yourself, "I don't need to put up with that for pussy. There are a million ways I can get laid and a million girls I can lay without having to put up with that. No thanks."

So you go meet some other girl instead, who doesn't have those flags, and you sleep with her.

It's a better time, and you deal with none of the hassle or fallout.

That's my take.

Chase
 
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