The best course of action to get the most learning from this

[Michal]

Hello,

The set up is fairly straight forward and the end result most likely set too. But let me explain what I have in mind. I structred the post, hopefully all the important info is there. Start with title.

Current situation:
I sat down next to a girl on the first day of our class, we talked a lot and I get the vibe that she is interested. But she has a boyfriend. I will be stuck with her for next 12 weeks in a group project (the group is actually only 2 of us).

More details about her:
She is very attractive. To me, it seemed we kinda clicked but she was reserved sometimes. I do not want to be her friend but I am prepared that she will view me like that anyway.
I got some personal stuff too like that she has only been on 2 dates ever, she is like 24, got some motivations in life, what actors she likes and why, what movies, we had some flirting going on here and there to sparkle the interaction, touched her once. She kept asking me what to we will do and basically leaving me in the leader role. And followed that. Also when our class ended, we traveled the same way, also followed my lead when I pushed her to the street knowing the green light would turn in about 5 seconds. She is very sweet, nice with sense of humour and occasional playful remarks, also putting herself in the follower role on the project. It seems to be somewhat serious between them, I would say they are together about a year. She mentioned she slept over at his place the day before.

So, I would say, if she did not have a BF, I would just ask her out and proceed to next step in my process. However, I dont feel that is the right way to go because of potential problems. Which brings me to...

What I tried and did:
I got the BF info out of her quite soon by an implicit statement about Facebook, something like: "Yea, they might pretend it is you and write to your BF something stupid" and she said he does not have FB.
I complimented her indirectly, she said she lives in a village nearby so I said that in villages one can find the most beautiful girls and she said enthusiastically: "Thats right!" And then I thought about push-pull, so I added "but also some very close-minded people" - which she took personally, laughed and said: "Well, thank you very much for that!" but in a bit sarcasting playful tone.
I asked for showing me actors that she liked and what about them and told her to look them up on a computer for me (which she did), the same about movies and some girls (what girls she likes looks of)
Lead the interaction, asked more questions, went to topic that I think would be interesting to her
Lead her on our way out of the school to a metro station.
Did not answer stuff right away at which point she asnwered it herself (probably to difuse the tension, dunnp) like "Do you like being in crowds" (we were in a pack of like 15 people waiting for the green light) so as I pushed her and led her out, she asked this, I just did "thoughtful hmmm" and like 5 seconds later she said "I dont like being surrounded by people like that. Like on a concert for example".

What I expect will happen:
- We will work together, have interesting conversations, some banter and flirting here and there, the semester ands and off we go about our business
- I get slotted as an orbiter or a friend which I will not follow through because I dont think I would contact her after the semester ends

What I want:
Best case scenario, I stay out of Friendzone, she breaks up with her BF out of boredom or something and we get it on.
But since I am 99% sure it will not happen, I want two things:
- improve my skills in some way (and I am not sure what I could improve with a taken girl like this, but I listed something further)
- not fuck up our dynamic because I will have to work on a project with her every week so I dont want an angry, bitter and spiteful teammate/feminazi.

How I want to use this:
I thought how to use this situation to improve my skills the most. Things that come to my mind:
- Asking her out and move further (and possibly make the group project and communication between us weird for next 2 months, if I screw up or she thinks it is weird. Also I think she would decline)
- Flirt with her and learn to battle friend-zone attempts and post-pone it as long as possible (because I will be a fixture in her life soon as Chase mentioned, so FZ is probably inevitable)
- Talking less about myself and trying to get more investment and get better at getting complience
- Be around a gorgeous girl and get used to it (so I do not get nervous in the future when a girl like that crosses my path) - not realy a work
- Use touch, well... Learn how to touch (I am really bad at this)

Now, based on this and the situation as it is, how are there any ways to get a handle on this? All the things I want to improve and think are possible to work on with this particular girl are on the same level.

And I am very curious, what would she probably behave after if I asked her out?

Thank you for reading this.

 

[normajean106]

Here's the deal, if you want to be a seducer/pick-up artist, don't do this.

Why? Because it's not efficient. You're going to be screwing (metaphorically speaking) around with a girl who probably is just using you for her personal validation. Just because a girl with a BF shows interest does not mean she actually wants to hook up with you. She does it so she can feel validated and "in demand." These girls usually don't do it on purpose (not that it excuses what she does), but nevertheless it's a bad place for a guy to be and that guy can come dangerously close to developing oneitis.

So let's look at the facts here for a second. First of all, she already has a BF. Second of all, she just met you. So no, she does not like you, and her signs of interest are in no way an indication she likes you. In fact, signs of interest are reactions, and not results, and they do not mean that a girl wants to hook up with you.

Lastly, you're going to be spending twelve weeks with her. If you screw something up, you're going to be stuck with that mistake for twelve weeks. Not a good place to be.

I know where you're coming from. Just last week I tried to do something similar to what you're doing now. Every guy in the thread told me not to do it, and I didn't listen (though it should be mentioned that they could have persuaded me not to do that in a much more encouraging way and that my dickish responses were warranted, per usual anyway).

But I remembered that it is an emotionally draining process, and that it is seldom worth doing at all. Out of all the times I ever competed with another guy/boyfriend, only one time did I actually attract the girl (and due to the circumstances, I can't/won't court her).

It would have been nice hooking up with the girl I was after, but it's not worth it because I wanted to be a seducer/pick-up artist/relationship expert and I wanted to date many women.

https://boards.girlschase.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13105

So I am NOT saying that you won't succeed. You can do this. But it's not efficient. In the time it takes you to win this girl over, you could land hundreds of approaches and date tons of women, and probably do other, bigger things in your life as well.

So, as a word of warning, don't do this unless you really feel this girl is that special.

 

[Michal]

Thanks for your time,
but it looks like you missed what I asked about - what I can practice. Not, how do I get the girl.

Imagine there was a girl, who texts you at 1am, if you would like to stop by to "count oranges" or something, which loudly screams that she wants your thing in her, you can look at that like "I can get better at sex with her".

Or you see a girl walking toward you with a little blush and looking down after you two made eye contact = you can approach and practice your whole seduction skillset.

Just like that, my question was - what can I practice in this particular example with those limitations (seeing her in the next 12 weeks for sure, etc.)

--------------------

I read your entire thread and since you liked it here (and also the theme of the discussion) showed me that you did not get what I am asking here.

Based on what I have learned past 3 and a half years, I can tell you there is no way I would do that and make her cheat on her boyfriend and I seriously doubt I could pull this off at all. Actually, I dont doubt it, I know it. Which is what you seem to be thinking I am after, which is not the case. If she gets single, great, I will try to make something happen, as I stated. But my goal from this is different.

So far, the only thing that came to my mind is using her for learning touch well.

 

[Mystique]

Hey Michal,
I'd say since you haven't mastered (or are not yet comfortable) with touch and possibly flirting, then you should do that a lot with your female friends and classmates. Not just this girl alone. You could eventually be free with her and could easily touch and flirt with her but still be unable to do it with other girls. I'm a total flirt. I flirt, touch and build sexual tension with my female classmates, my female friends, girls I just meet and even my friends girlfriends (no sexual tension here, just flirting) and they totally love it. I use them for practice. That's what I'd recommend you do with all the girls you see everyday including this one. And all that Norma Jean said is spot on, in case you're thinking towards that direction. Also, go out and approach tons of girls. Good luck man.

 

[normajean106]

Just like that, my question was - what can I practice in this particular example with those limitations (seeing her in the next 12 weeks for sure, etc.)

Right, right.

I read your entire thread and since you liked it here (and also the theme of the discussion) showed me that you did not get what I am asking here.

I was skim reading and I had interpreted it as you trying to court a taken girl, but I'm glad that's not the case.

Based on what I have learned past 3 and a half years, I can tell you there is no way I would do that and make her cheat on her boyfriend and I seriously doubt I could pull this off at all. Actually, I dont doubt it, I know it. Which is what you seem to be thinking I am after, which is not the case. If she gets single, great, I will try to make something happen, as I stated. But my goal from this is different.


So far, the only thing that came to my mind is using her for learning touch well.

First of all, you never want to socially experiment with social circles that you're serious about. Some guys may disagree with me, but trust me, it's just better not to. That's what cold approaching is for.

But, you do you. If you want to polarize, go nuts.

So, here's a question for you. Why her? You could be doing this with anybody.

Seeing things like:

And I am very curious, what would she probably behave after if I asked her out?

and

Be around a gorgeous girl

and

Asking her out and move further

concern me.

From what I hear, you sound like your on the fence about being interested in her, and that her boyfriend is the dividing line that's keeping you from hooking up with her.

This below:

Best case scenario, I stay out of Friendzone, she breaks up with her BF out of boredom or something and we get it on.

Kinda shows that too.

If you're going to experiment, then don't ask questions like this one below:

what would she probably behave after if I asked her out?

This isn't experimenting, this is romanticizing. You're going to develop investment by doing so. With the girl I was after, I always kept questions like that out of my head to prevent investment. If you want to be able to experiment, then you have to do likewise, and keep "What if" questions that involve hooking up with her outta your noggin.

Remember when Yoda said, "Do, or do not. There is no try."? He was actually giving Luke advice on pick-up artistry. Okay not really, but the point is that you can't invest in the girl, or even other people, that you are trying to socially experiment with. You're gonna hurt yourself if you do. You have to pick one or the other.

That's exactly why I decided against chasing after the girl I told you about. I thought I would be able to hook up with her without being hurt, but I was wrong. Not that I couldn't hook up with her, but there would be many nights of frustration and pain that would distract me from becoming the seducer I want to be. It just wasn't worth it for someone I hardly knew (and thank God I wasn't invested in her, or else I might still be chasing her).

Also, come on dude. Don't do this:

So far, the only thing that came to my mind is using her for learning touch well.

Really? Is she only good for touching? I mean I hate seeing her use you for validation, but is she a stuffed animal now?

I know I said you can't be attached to the people you are socially experimenting with, but they're still human beings. If you want practice, then focus on what YOU are doing. Instead of thinking "what can I use him/her for?" think "What can I do that will get me X result from this person, and how will they react?"

Bottom line, you do you. Go polarize your social group as much as you want. But, I will warn you, do not get invested in anyone if you are going to do this, because you will get hurt if you experiment whilst still invested in the girl.

 

[Michal]

Hey Michal,
I'd say since you haven't mastered (or are not yet comfortable) with touch and possibly flirting, then you should do that a lot with your female friends and classmates. Not just this girl alone. You could eventually be free with her and could easily touch and flirt with her but still be unable to do it with other girls. I'm a total flirt. I flirt, touch and build sexual tension with my female classmates, my female friends, girls I just meet and even my friends girlfriends (no sexual tension here, just flirting) and they totally love it. I use them for practice. That's what I'd recommend you do with all the girls you see everyday including this one. And all that Norma Jean said is spot on, in case you're thinking towards that direction. Also, go out and approach tons of girls. Good luck man.

Thanks, Mystique, that is what I had in mind. I have to say that the way you worded your comment kind of inspired me. So that is what I tried this week.

Therefore, for those it might concern and how it develops (I know there is a section for field reports, but oh well). Most of the following are just reactions but since I want to focus on flirting and using touch, I kinda need to calibrate and I think that the only way to do that is by observing how she reacts when I do something, so...

Week 2:
Anyways, she was asking me less questions about myself (I think only 3 during that hour and a half) and I deep dived more (which is probably my strongest skill now and do it kinda on default). About what kind of wedding she would like to have, where she works lead to what major she would chose, basically she studies(ed) IT because she did not get into finance. About seasons, winter vs summer where she talked on her own for a while I just did those "uh-huh" sounds and changed topics comletely to working out and stuff like that.
- Teased her a bit
- Talked about a movie she recommended and then recommended one to her (which she saw) but both times she asked "You did not like it?" which I take as a sign that I give out some negative vibe OR I talked in a disinterested voice tone even though I liked both movies very much, but my behaviour probably did not reflect that - so, mental note: keep this in mid.
- Flirting - Yea, I am so bad I could not even think about some flirty lines really so gotta work on that (but I think it would be better to watch some movies or conversations to get the mindset rather than focus on it during the convo with her and be stuck in head)
I tried to find some excuses to touch her. Maybe there was a context but I dont remember now, so... out of the blue she mentioned she a has bruise because she bumped into opened fridge door. So I said "Really? Show me", so she rolled up her T-shirt and said it hurts. It was on her back where her right kidney is, so I run my hand across that and then pressed it a bit and she put on slightly flirty look with a smile.
- Asked for paper and a pen because I wanted to write something - and either she has weird non-verbals over all or this was just one time thing - but she immediately and very fast (like if it was an emergency or something) grabbed her purse, took her pencilcase out, gave me all the stuff I asked for.

Note #1: This ^ class on Wednesday
Note #2: This is just my guess, but she is probably ovulating because she changed her nail polish to red one, had a lipstick on and some "blushy powder make up" on her cheeks

Weird thing happened on Thursday, because she rescheduled one of her classes so now I meet her twice a week because she walked into the room, spotted me and sat next to me.
- She was more playful on Thursday, poked more fun at me. Said that she googled my name and found that first link says I am deceased since March 2015. So I said I might write a book about the experience of life beyond or something like that
- She said that we had a class together a year ago (which I forgot about, but recalled at that moment, but she was in a different team). And that she actually thinks I am quite debonair (I dont know a better word that would corespond with the one in my language becasue it something in between likeable and attractive) which threw me off a bit so I just stared at her and she said "Well, not right now". I take that as a sign of me really being her friendly companion now. But I expected that so no biggie.
- Touched her shoulder when passing behind her and leaving to bathroom and then the same when I got back
- Also touched the lower back and said bye when I was leaving (she was waiting in a line for teacher to ask some questions).

So, at the end things "achieved" this week:
Flirting: 0,5/10
Touching: 6/10

Anyways, the plan is the same:
- Focus on flirting and find some excuses to touch her. Chase mentioned in one or two articles to only focus on couple of things at a time, so...
- Also thought about saying something like "You know, if you were not taken, I would ask you out" (or similar meaning but different wording) just to paint myself differently and see what that does just to experiment.

And please dont go on thing like "forget her and meet other girls" because this one is a "training grounds for me" and I met one in another class who is not taken and one in a subway who asked me for directions (which is not a strong number who we will see).

 

[normajean106]

Thanks, Mystique, that is what I had in mind. I have to say that the way you worded your comment kind of inspired me. So that is what I tried this week.

Listen, Mystique isn't encouraging you to flirt with this one girl. He's telling you that if you only practice kino with one specific girl, then you'll only be good at using kino with one specific girl.

He phrased his post like that to half-disagree with you in the most polite way possible.

There's nothing wrong with practicing kino with a girl, but you have to practice kino with many girls to comfortably use kino with anyone. This is what me and Mystique are trying to tell you.

- Also thought about saying something like "You know, if you were not taken, I would ask you out" (or similar meaning but different wording) just to paint myself differently and see what that does just to experiment.

Like I've said before, this is not experimenting. This is romanticizing. I am telling you not to do this, because you are going to build investment and you're eventually going to want to ask her out if you keep fantasizing like this. And judging by the way your interactions have been going with her, she's not going to reciprocate the feeling.

Do you really want to experiment? Then stop procrastinating and just ask her out already and gauge her reaction. If you can't do that, then you know you are invested in her and you know that you aren't just practicing your skills with her.

And please dont go on thing like "forget her and meet other girls" because this one is a "training grounds for me"

I am honestly concerned that you are developing feelings for this girl, which is fine, if you aren't serious about pick-up artistry.

You won't, however, reach your full potential with seduction then, because pick-up artists don't do this. They go by the abundance mentality. They don't use just one girl to practice XYZ technique every MWF, because all girls, not just one, can help them improve their skills.

If a pick-up artist really needs to polarize, then he will go out on cold approaches experimenting with people he doesn't know. I've said this before, but social circles are not meant for polarizing. Cold approaches, are meant for polarizing.

This is probably going to be my last post, so you know what, if you want to "experiment" with this girl, then whatever, go nuts. Just don't expect an increase in your skills as a pick-up artist if you continue to only use kino with this one specific girl.

 

[Mystique]

Listen, Mystique isn't encouraging
you to flirt with this one girl . He's
telling you that if you only practice
kino with one specific girl, then you'll
only be good at using kino with one
specific girl.
He phrased his post like that to half-
disagree with you in the most polite
way possible.
There's nothing wrong with practicing
kino with a girl, but you have to
practice kino with many girls to
comfortably use kino with anyone.
This is what me and Mystique are
trying to tell you.

I couldn't have said it better. Normajean nailed it! I'd advise you do some cold approaches too. The good thing about flirting with girls in your circle/class is that when you start your day feeling off, once you interact and flirt with these girls you'll feel loosened up. Plus you'll gain social momentum to go approach other girls. Well it all depends on what your main goal is for joining the forum. I'd have loved to give you an anecdote relating to this but it's gonna take too much typing. You definitely should be meeting girls. Once again, good luck man!

 

[Michal]

Alright, week 3 - nothing happened because I was not in the class.

So I thought what you guys told me and accepted that while to a certain extent discarded some stuff because I probably did not communicate to you properly what I had in mind.
I took it more like you were telling me that being interested in a great girl is wrong. And given the situation I knew rationally that you are right but emotionally I just felt disconnected with the advice. But that is not important now. I had a date on Tuesday which went kinda meh, the girl who initially caught my interest kinda made me lose it on the date.
That being said, I kinda lost interest in this one girl from the class, in doing anything with her really. I did not really feel attracted to her sexually that much, maybe it was because I masturbated 2 days prior (and I have kinda low sex drive so who knows, just a thought).

So I went there on week 4 (yesterday) not expecting anything, not really the right headspace because of some mood swings that happened earlier this week. I met her, she was very low energy, kinda down so I just thought that she is on her period. So said she does not look like she is in her own skin today. She did not say anything, just looked down, so I asked what was troubling her. And she said they split up with her boyfriend on Monday. So I asked why and she said there was some root issue that they supressed for couple of months and just both decided that it would be better to let go.

She was quiet for half a minute and then started to vent. At that point I remembered Chase's article on this stuff so I cut her off after 2nd sentence and just asked how long they have been together and she said almost 2 years. And then I asked what she liked about him, to which she gave me a list of like 6 things. And added that he was the first guy she has been with in a serious relationship, the guy prior was more of a friend. So I just said that I understand what she is going through.

And then I thought if I should say that thing that Chase mentioned in his article about his view on relationships. And I recognized that I would be saying that mostly just to say that, even though I am not there yet to share that view completely. But I kinda wanted to see what it does so I said that it will be hard for a week now but she will be fine after that. So I said that if she had [name of a course], there was a psychologist talking about how relationships are simply about reproduction. Sex is for babies and all those hearts and romantic songs that men sing to their girls are just something that society uses to make it less dry. That at the end, it is just finding someone she is physically attracted to, who she likes and spends passionate nights with. And she looked at me for like 2 seconds seconds and then ran her eyes down and up again and then just looked forward again and kept staring to the computer screen in front of her. Had to leave early, so as I was leaving I jut touched her on her trapezius for about a second, said bye and went on my business.

Anyways, I dont really know what I want anymore. I felt pretty down earlier this week. Also, there was a dude who was sick first weeks so we are 3 in the team now, which means 1 on 1 talks with her are over starting next week.

 

[NotJamesBond]

Michal:

Yikes, why did you say that to her? That was awful advice and probably got her down...You don't have to say whatever Chase says, you can disagree lol. You should have encouraged her and been warm. Be your own man. I completely disagree with that cynical "it's only for making babies" crap. There's much more to love than that. You also don't need to be a seducer. This place has great advice but I think Pick Up Artistry fails inherently because it tries to map out exact ways to deal with people and that isn't how humanity works at all. It works just enough to get people to think a-ha! See...? It's pop psychology at best.

It isn't without its gems and solid advice, of course, but it's far from perfect. It can knock you out of silly One Special Girl mindsets and chasing, but there's plenty wrong with it (like how attraction expires forever- you can get it back if you reassert yourself as confident, etc).

I appreciate the advice I get and take from this place what I take and apply it to how I view the world, which is much more optimistic than "Love isn't actually real, it's only for baby-making." Chase is an interesting character and I'd love to talk with him in-person about this, as he apparently used to be a devout Catholic. I am, so you could even say the main purpose of this site (to get laid as much as possible) is something I completely disagree with. Still, you can glean good advice. Capable men are capable men. Just apply it to what you want out of relationships, women, etc. Don't follow this stuff to the exact letter, but take it into consideration.

Hope that helps. Good luck on your endeavors, man.
NJB

 

[Chris_ger]

This place has great advice but I think Pick Up Artistry fails inherently because it tries to map out exact ways to deal with people and that isn't how humanity works at all

So I just read this thread and wow I so hoped someone would make a post like "Notjamesbond" did. I am here to learn as well but you can't just copy and paste the articles here for everyday situations and people. You learn from them and then advance your mindset and flirtskills through them.... they shouldn't completly take it over.

Imo you really really overthink flirting a bit too much.

for example

but both times she asked "You did not like it?" which I take as a sign that I give out some negative vibe OR I talked in a disinterested voice tone

Think about how you would approach this situation if you'd be talking to a guy. You would not overthink everything he says. Not everything has to mean something special, somethimes you can disagree with a woman if you don't like something. It's like body language so many people that write about flirting and stuff put SOOOO much meaning into it and it certainly is important but sometimes someone just sits there with his arms folded or leaning back against the chair without it meaning anything except that it's very confortable.

well that is my opinion which is completly based on my experience. =)

 

[Michal]

Michal:

Yikes, why did you say that to her? That was awful advice and probably got her down...You don't have to say whatever Chase says, you can disagree lol. You should have encouraged her and been warm. Be your own man. I completely disagree with that cynical "it's only for making babies" crap. There's much more to love than that. You also don't need to be a seducer. This place has great advice but I think Pick Up Artistry fails inherently because it tries to map out exact ways to deal with people and that isn't how humanity works at all. It works just enough to get people to think a-ha! See...? It's pop psychology at best.

It isn't without its gems and solid advice, of course, but it's far from perfect. It can knock you out of silly One Special Girl mindsets and chasing, but there's plenty wrong with it (like how attraction expires forever- you can get it back if you reassert yourself as confident, etc).

I appreciate the advice I get and take from this place what I take and apply it to how I view the world, which is much more optimistic than "Love isn't actually real, it's only for baby-making." Chase is an interesting character and I'd love to talk with him in-person about this, as he apparently used to be a devout Catholic. I am, so you could even say the main purpose of this site (to get laid as much as possible) is something I completely disagree with. Still, you can glean good advice. Capable men are capable men. Just apply it to what you want out of relationships, women, etc. Don't follow this stuff to the exact letter, but take it into consideration.

Hope that helps. Good luck on your endeavors, man.
NJB

Hi,

I told her that because I wanted to see what it does and see how she would respond to it. The only way to divide what is good advice and bad advice is trying it. I mean, you can look at every advice here like that and be like "this must be wrong, I dont know why, but it does not feel right", but I can tell you that my natural inner programming is not correct with women so her questions like "Do you like me?" or "What do you like about me?", I would just asnwer honestly. I would tell her everything that would come into my mind that I like about her. At which point, she has nothing to ponder about, she would had me. No more investment on her part. I have seen many times that people dont value what you give them cheaply. I can support people in very tough situations, at least that is what almost everyone told me. But guess what, a month later, I dont hear from them, sometimes it is a week. So there is something that I do wrong and what Chase taught me was really to just say "fuck it" and go try some stuff, some different approach.

Ultimately, I just want to fix what I am doing wrong in order to get some real experience with serious relationships so that one day I can have a great relationship with one and have a family with her, I want to be a father really. But not a one that would end up being cheated on or resented or just ignored like my own father. I will repeat myself, but I just want to fix my inability. So I need to try things I did not try before. And to be honest, I found that some stuff seems like it does not work but that might be because I either cannot pull it off or that it seems incogruent to the girl because my fundamentals are not there. Like if a nerd tried to be all tough like the biggest rockstar on the planet I guess. I dont know.

With this particular one, we just talk now, it is kinda polite conversation, not really a good, it does not flow on its own anymore. And it sucks and I dont like it.