The Effectiveness of Fundamentals

[Sam]

Hello gentlemen!

I was wondering lately what a man who has gotten his fundamentals down should actually expect in terms of actual results with women.

I feel I am in a long plataeu where fundamentals do not actually add much to my results.

While my fashion, body language and eye contact are down to the absolute maximum and while I get some approach invitations by women, these women are not only slightly, but in fact significantly, farther than the type of women I really want.

For the sake of the argument, if we use the 1-to-10 scale on looks, the women who get passively attracted to me are 2 to 3 levels down in comparison with the level of women I really want. Example: if I want a 10, what I get passively is a 7. If I want a 9, what I get is a 6.

Do I want a tall brunette with big natural boobs? Well, I will get approach invitations by shorter and less chesty women. I will also get easily milfs and some moderately attractive 23-year-olds. For your information, I am 33.

It seems that fundamentals alone can bring you only so much.

Can you relate with this?
What is your own experience after you perfected your own fundamentals?
Did any of you get the women he really wanted after he perfected his own fundamentals?

 

[Rusty]

If you're rarely getting approaches then you're doing something wrong. Hot women always approach me. I don't even have to lift a finger. Whenever I step out of the house and into the public eye, women are draped all over me. One look and they melt in front of me. Seriously, something must be wrong with you...

All kidding aside, fundamentals by themselves do not bring women into your life. They come into play whenever you're being out and about and people can see you.

Guys always complain that they're not good looking enough or some other lame excuse, but let me tell you, I have been told by a number of people that I'm a "good looking" guy and that I could be a "model". I've also been told by a number of women that I ain't shit and wouldn't even give me the time of day (well not necessarily true, women are never that nasty).

Do I get approached? Certainly. Does it happen every time I go out? Not even close. In fact, the more desirable and attractive you are based on your appearance (your face, your hair, your clothes, your body language, vibe, eye contact) the more intimidating you can come across to women.

Your "value" can be high, but your attainability is low because you might be perceived by these women as "out of their league". Crazy, right? Why would she think she couldn't get ugly ol' me? It might sound crazy, but not all women have high self-esteem or self-worth. Not all women's estimation of themselves is equivalent to their perceived beauty. In fact, I've found that women who have "constructed" beauty vs. natural beauty, (that is, women who use the power of makeup, great hair, clothing to appear hot and sexy) are much more jaded and fixated on getting men who are as vain as they are. Naturally beautiful women tend to be grounded and much more insecure about their looks and humble. Of course, these are general patterns and trends, not absolutes.

I will also say this: The women that you truly want will almost NEVER approach you. If you are aiming high and have high standards from both a physical and emotional/mental standpoint, the women you truly want to go after will never throw themselves at you. They might give you signals, some very subtle signals that most men can't read because they're not speaking a woman's language.

Oh, and you can't always rely on women to throw signals or give hints to you. Sometimes they will. Blatantly obvious ones. But most of the time, you'll just have to approach and find out if there's potential there. It's a man's job to be the leader and the initiator.

 

[Drck]

When a girl looks at guy with good fundamentals, she should be thinking: Hey this guy seems to be quite interesting and sexy, he seems to be confident and open to conversation. You don't meet guys like this every day, let's show him some interest to find out what is he all about...

She then comes closer to you and tries to find out what kind of guy are you. ...?? Some girls are more reserved, others more direct. Some are in good mood, others had better days. Some are taken and perhaps in love, others are free... Some are calmed, experienced and confident mamas, others are anxious virgins...

So what are you going to do now when she shows an interest? If you think that every girl will start seducing you and pushing you to the bed because you give her dominant look or sexy smile, you are mistaken. If you think that you are the only guy who she thinks is interesting and sexy, it is probably not true. Perhaps your Ego is too big. If you think that she doesn't meet other guys that she perceives as sexy and interesting, and who at the same time show a great interest in her, well I don't know what to tell you...

A good thing is that many/most guys have poor fundamentals. So by good fundamentals you bypass 80% of competition. Some guys have good fundamentals, but they are immature, perhaps inexperienced, they mess up many things in the interaction, they don't know what are they doing.... So that is 90% of competition... So now, with good fundamentals, you are at the top of the ladder. Is it good enough to get her to the bed? Sometimes yes, other times no...

Vibes are important. We have different experiences, we come from different backgrounds, we have different believes, we have different expectations of people... She may see something in you and she is expecting you to behave certain way because that is what she sees in her mind. If you don't do that, well, the vibes are just not there, or they are not strong enough...

Congruance is important. If you look sexy and dominant, you should be sexy and dominant. You should show no hesitation or awkwardness, there shouldn't be much difference between your appearance, behavior and persona. That is why pretending to be someone who you are not is not working many times, or it is working - but against you...

 

[PrettyDecent]

Hey Sam,

Well, there's only so far you can push the quality of your fundamentals right now. And everybody thinks they have "pretty good" or "really good" fundamentals.

Here's a test of good fundamentals - do girls around you flirt with you really heavy and say offhand sexual or complimentary remarks to you or about you often? Do men have a respect/intimidation feeling around you? Be honest with yourself.

As you improve your social and dating aptitudes, you'll realize where you're fundamentals are lacking, and then you can improve them again. And for that, you'll just need more practice and critiquing really minute details in your Field Reports.

Nick

 

[Sam]

Thank you all for your contribution.

Just to make a few adjustments:

1) Cold approaching is my bread and butter. I am a fearless approacher and while I don't approach huge numbers of girls, I am much more successful compared to other men I know who put more effort.

2) I am not considering Cold Approach and Passive Attraction in competition with each other. Of course the man should approach. I am just focusing on the quality of women I get passively attracted to me and I am noticing that it is in most cases significantly lower than what I really would want.

3) I guess hot women I like are more conservative in betraying their interest to me, even if they want to meet me. They probably are status quo preservers and not social climbers, so they remain aloof in most cases.

4) The women who give off huge green signs might simply be women in scarcity because of their moderate attractiveness. Another category of women which gives me crazily obvious eye contact is that of the married/in relationship. Women walking hand-in-hand with their boyfriends give me often very strong eye contact to my great surprise.

5) I get compliments about my bold dressing choices (I wear slim-fit coloured trousers and shirts etc), men consider me a mentor when around me, and moderatey attractive women and milfs give me REALLY strong eye contact. This is the level I am currently, overall. It is my goal to get beyond the 7s in looks and move to the 8-10 levels. I am generally abundant but not absolutely abundant. It is a fact that I can have sex with up to the 7s whenever I want, but not yet with my type of women.

 

[Michal]

I would say there is a limit, but applies only in each individual example. What I mean is that if you are skinny, you should get more buff. Then other stuff like height plays a role too, but you cant change that. Also some of the aspects of the fundamentals are 1) easier to obtain and 2) have deeper levels.

What I mean is that with fashion, you might go out, hire a stylist and have your wardrobe upgraded in a day. Your overall fashion sense takes longer to develop I think.

Meanwhile building your manly physique requires months or sometimes years to develop depending on your starting point.

And what I mean by the limit is that in order to attract the girl you want, you need to have the kind of fundamental presentation and vibe that she finds attractive, however for each one of us, the "setting" on our fundamentals needs to be different in order to have it maxed and attract the most of the girls who are our type.

Example - I am 186cm (6ft 1) tall and 70 kg (154 lbs) have narrow shoulders, long legs, so in order to look proportional, I need to gain about 15 to 20 kilograms of muscle (33 to 44 lbs). Meanwhile my friend is like 167cm (5ft 4) tall, so for him, it would be like 10 maybe (22 lbs).

Also, based on the research we know that generally most attractive proportions are like 0.9 - 1.0 belt to hip ratio. And for women it was like 0.7 belly to hip ratio (so that they have the curve). So scientifically speaking, we have a limit of the top attractiveness in the are of physical fitness. But then again, you might want a fitness chick, so for her, to attract her, you would need 10 kg more. And that is what plays key role.

What I meant by different level or deeper level is that for example with body language, you can be all calm, confident in certain social setting, but then you meet her super awesome mega attractive ex boyfriend and you stumble a bit and you show some nervousness. This is just an example of what I mean by deeper level. What I mean is that in order to play on higher level with higher level players, some of your skills (like body language) needs to be on higher level. But if it is not required to get the kind of girl you want, then we could probably talk about being maxed. But yea, body language is most likely one of those that you never max out, because of the amount of social interactions possible. Meanwhile your physique is different story.

The problem I find is that sometimes I met absolutely gorgeous girl, way out of my league and she thought I was attractive. And a week later, almost exactly same looking girl, looked at me with disgust. So you cant really go off of looks on this.

So to me, the catch is this. Here comes your vision board to play. You have to have a clear idea of what you want in a girl AND then become the kind of guy the girl would want. Which is again why some fundamentals play bigger role. You might be short but the girl does not care. Even if we know that being tall is generally a better fundamental.

I find it very hard to know what the girl would want but I go by general rule - like attracts like. But I would like if someone could tell me how to really know what the dream girl want in a guy. Because introverted girl might like extroverted guy because she wants to be more extroverted herself, but then 2nd introverted girl might despise him for being too active and not relaxing enough. Which brings bach the memory of eliciting values, you ask her what she values and the show her that side of you.

Back to fundamentals. The limit I mean is more of a "best version of yourself". But personally, I beliebe that if you get 2 guys with maxed fundamentals, it will all come down to the preference and values. But also, there is a chance that your best version of yourself does not compare to best version of someone else because you lack some innate trait that you cant change like good looking manly face and height and you might have harder time attracting girls you want in large numbers. But then again, you have game to close thd gap.

Edit:
I also rembered an article, where Chase said that the guy with tighest fundamentals will win any day. However, to my understanding, the "tightest" is up the girl. There was a post from Chase in beginner section about getting girls and he used an example of wanting to get a hood girl. If she wants to remain in the hood, she will value to most "hood like" fundamentals. So you must be most gangsta. But if she wants to escape that life, a business man will do the justice to her. So, then again, what kind of girl do you want in your life? But that mostly applies to your physical appearance. Things like body language, eye contact, voice tone, posture, that speaks more about your inner level stuff which is most likely objective.

 

[Orelfius]

I was wondering lately what a man who has gotten his fundamentals down should actually expect in terms of actual results with women.

Fundamentals is a barrier remover. It makes the seduction easier. It reduce objections, cockblocking, etc. But fundamentals doesn't replace seduction: You can play a video game at the easy level setting, but you still have to go through the game to win. Same thing here.

Fundamentals also have a passive seduction effect (i.e.: it attracts women and gay men). More on this later.

While my fashion, body language and eye contact are down to the absolute maximum and while I get some approach invitations by women, these women are not only slightly, but in fact significantly, farther than the type of women I really want.

Well, welcome to the real world. It's no different for the perfect 10 women: They also have the same problem: attracting the wrong guys, not attracting the right guys. You may even attract gay men. It's inherent to passive seduction.

For the sake of the argument, if we use the 1-to-10 scale on looks, the women who get passively attracted to me are 2 to 3 levels down in comparison with the level of women I really want. Example: if I want a 10, what I get passively is a 7. If I want a 9, what I get is a 6.

That's the because since they perceive you as "out of their league", they change their usual behaviour to try to get you anyway. They feel like it their only way to have a chance with you (and rightly so judging by the way you describe them). More attractive women (or unattractive one with higher sense of self and self-esteem) keep relying on "boy approaching girl" system with you.

Do I want a tall brunette with big natural boobs? Well, I will get approach invitations by shorter and less chesty women. I will also get easily milfs and some moderately attractive 23-year-olds.

Same as above plus a case of confirmation bias: You over notice the case of uninteresting girls.

Overall, your problem revolve around expectation management. That good old happiness formula is still the same:
Happiness = Reality - Expectation
(and negative happiness here, is not sadness but frustration)

You are expecting too much from your fundamentals. Why? Because you put SO MUCH effort in improving your fundamentals, you expect a proportional outcome…
… but that's not how it works.

So how one could manage expectation? Just saying: don't expect that much from it won't works; expectations are linked to the amount of efforts we put in something. So we could use the Pareto law to manage our efforts.

Let's have a look at the Pareto law:
20% of your effort will gave you 80% of your results (and so 24% for 96% and 25% for 99% if you keep projecting the ratio)
So there's a point of diminishing return here. Past that point, you results barely move, while your efforts sky rocket (and your expectations follow your efforts, remember?).

So pushing yourself past that diminishing return point (between 20% to 25%, depending of how much you want) will hinder your happiness because you push the expectations too high. In formula:

A) Using Pareto 20% for 80% scenario
Happy guy 60% = Reality 80% - Expectation 20% (amount of effort)

B) Pushing Paret to 25% for 99% scenario
Happy guy 74% = Reality 99% - Expectation 25% (amount of effort)

C) Perfectionist scenario
Happy 0% = Reality 100% - Expectation 100% (amount of effort)

Also, that mean it's a good strategy to take advantage of the various aspect of the seduction.
- When you reach the point of diminishing return with your fundamentals, work on your conversation skill.
- When you reach the point of diminishing return with your conversation skill, work on the number of approach your make each week.
- Then improve the location where you do these approach to get more of the style of girls you like.
etc.

For each, the Pareto rule of the 20/80 will apply.

As a guy, you have so many of these, it's really easy to keep improving your results (i.e. your reality, and thus your happiness) without going over the point of diminishing return (and hence avoid diminishing happiness). What start as a frustration for us (there's so much to learn as a guy to be attractive compare to the girls!) become our best advantage (we can keep improving our reality in an efficient way).

Girls, on the other hand, have much less to do (seriously, if she's 18, not overweight, all you need is make up, high heels and short dress to make her awesome looking)… and so quickly reach their point of diminishing return and enter a spiral of very hard efforts for… well… not so amazing results (if you consider what the average guy had done to make himself attractive). That's why even in seduction, the girls quickly reach a glass ceiling.
(I think many guy have a wrong perception of women power in seduction because they build their image of the "market place" when they are young and girls are at their prime)

 

[Sam]

Orelfius,

Your idea about diminishing effects of fundamentals seems strikingly to the point: after you maxed out your fundamentals, no point in expecting more results.
On the other hand this still remains my concern: if a guy needs maxed out fundamentals to just attract passively the 6s of the world, then maybe fundamentals are just overrated.

Slay,

No ego involved in my free sharing of my concerns with other fellow men, nor in my awareness of my strenghts and weaknesses.
Why am I concerned with passive attractiveness, if I am an avid approacher? Simply because when you invest in yourself, you really want to know what this investment did for you and your goals. You want to see things get easier for you. No mystery at all, I think.

 

[Orelfius]

On the other hand this still remains my concern: if a guy needs maxed out fundamentals to just attract passively the 6s of the world, then maybe fundamentals are just overrated.

Fundamentals aren't overrated -> They do what they do.
… but your EXPECTATIONS about them are exaggerated.

The problem is that you expect your fundamentals to do the job FOR you. It won't. Fundamentals are kind of like a shovel: it help a lot to dig a hole, but weither bare handed or with the shovel you will still have to dig the hole.

More practical:
Everytime you walk to a stranger and start to talk to her and she receive you well and don't shut you down (aka no bitch shield around).. well you can thanks your fundamentals for that.

Fundamentals won't make girls suddenly play the agressor/assertive role and start going for you (not girls who think they are in your league anyway).

 

[HellAtlantic]

Let's get one thing straight here:

Fundamentals, inner game, don't replace good looks. You can't be a couch potato, have bad skin, eat Taco Bell every day and skip working out and think you can read a few articles about how to stand more alpha, walk dominantly and have killer eye contact and all of a sudden 9s and 10s are gonna ask you to fuck them. Lol.

You have to look good. And work out. Everything else, I don't care who tells you - Chase, Jesus or any other PUA master - everything else is smoke and mirrors. They help complete the package but they aren't THE package. Fundamentals are what helps bring it all together, you don't wanna put so much time into your look or in the gym only to stand like a weak and passive female. If you stood like a weak beta it would detract from all the work you did in the gym. If you didn't read articles on sexy voice/dominant body language girls would think "nice body, but he doesn't give off that ''manly man' vibe." So fundamentals aren't gonna do the work for you, they are just gonna enhance the work you've already done on yourself. But fundamentals in and of themselves are not the ticket alone to banging 9s and 10s. You still gotta look good.

I smile at every girl, and I do get a good amount of attention from girls who are "below my pay grade". I'm not a dick to them, I acknowledge them with eye contact and slight smile but the natural order of things are someone who looks like me and has my body just doesn't hook up with 5s or 6s. But my eye contact and slight smile is enough to make their day, like "omg that hot guy I was telling you about looked at me today!" sort of way.

I already look good and I workout 5x a week every week. I put the work in but I still look good because of bone structure and facial symmetry. I come to GC to learn game/fundamentals to complete the whole picture and how to manage certain situations but I don't expect the articles to lift the weights for me.

 

[lao che]

fundamentals are everything. if your body language, style,eye contact, posture, body, voice, walk etc all say "i'm a guy who gets laid" then that's about 90% of the battle won. the other 10% is approaching. no amount of fundamentals is going to get you a horde of teenagers lining up to suck your dick and no amount of anything can get you whichever girl you so desire.
don't expect girls to do the work, and don't rely solely on girls who flash you a look. girls don't know what' s going on around them most of the time. they don't notice you until you shake them out of their daydreaming.