Am I being gaslit... about gaslighting?
Gaslighting is trying to make someone question his own reality.
Saying, "Hey, somebody else was talking about this years ago. Here's a link to the proof," is now gaslighting?
Is that kinda like how someone saying, "I don't see race," is actually guilt of unconscious racism, for not recognizing the racial struggles of the oppressed proletariat, or something?
Anyway, it was my intention to NOT get drawn into a debate here, but since this is targeted at me now, I guess I am. So, a few points:
skills: dude i never did this is like me thinking that you stole forcing ais and rename it..... I was trying to make a freaking analogy...
gun: yes you did i know when i smell bullshit you stole from me......
chase: skills please give credit when credit is due (a dude that had a long history of going out of the way to quote chase, teevester, gunwitch and the poster that name drops and quotes the most in the history of the seduction community, teevester aka alek rosland is quoted hundreds of times in my blogs and videos)
skills: chase i always quote always, is my history and my track record...
chase: i read that in swingcat
skills: i never read swincat...
chase: dude please give quotes and credit...
skills: chase i never was in masf, i never read swingcat, i never read or purchase the way of the gun....
All right. Let me explain the subtext here as a play-by-play.
- Skills posts the fighting stance opener to the T/T board
- This is not like posting an "I got laid with the fighting stance opener" LR to field reports board, where you can probably skip attribution and nobody will care. I doubt Gunwitch would care. The T/T board is generally understood to be a place for sharing new tactics and techniques you have come up with, or else expansion/refinement of existing tech. If everyone knows who originated the existing tech there's not really a need to attribute. e.g., if somebody comes on here and says, "Here's this new way to deep dive I came up with" he doesn't need to say (credit: Chase on the original deep diving concept) because everyone more or less knows where that comes from. But if he's on SoSuave.net, and SoSuave has a tactics board (I've no idea if it has) decorum dictates he at least mention where he got the original tech from
- Skills knows he did not come up with AIs, pAImAIs, the fighting stance opener, etc., that are what this post in T/T is about, himself. In fact, in the thread he talks about getting stuff from Steve Jabba or whomever. The normal way to discuss this in a T/T post if you aren't sure of source attribution would be "Hey, here's an old tech I like making use of" or "I forget where I got this, but blah blah"
- Skills doesn't claim to have invented the tech. He also does not attribute it. It's just sort of there, a contribution of his to the T/T board
- If the guy who introduced the tech, or played a founding role in its development, is there, he is likely to see someone else posting this tech unattributed to the T/T board as an attempt to take credit as being an originator of that tech
- If the credit goes uncorrected, and the tech catches on, then you start to see guys posting on the Boards about "I was using Skills's 'fighting stance opener', doing this thing Skills talks about to get girls to notice you and bump into you, and..." Then the guy who's the originator of that has to deal with more people muddying the waters on his contribution
I will say I am personally not super worried about attribution to me personally, although I do appreciate it. If it's a major thing I will correct it, but I will see guys saying, "This tech I got from Hector," or, "This thing I got from Franco (our old mod)," or what have you and it is some small-but-useful thing the guy who's getting the attribution in fact learned from me. But I do not worry about that. Because, well, that is what happens in fields over time. You train a generation of guys, then they train a generation of guys, and so on, and the attribution gets muddy as it trickles down through student generations.
That said, different people are going to be different about their feelings toward attribution.
Gunwitch is one of the few guys still in the pickup community from 20 years ago, because he cares a lot about the space, and he also cares about his legacy and is proud of his contributions. You might not be able to trace the impact of his stuff, since the guys you studied studied guys who studied Gun, and you don't know all the details of that, but his influence is far-reaching. When I joined mASF in 2005 Gunwitch Method was plastered everywhere and it was one of the first things the forum pushed you to read. Before I read pretty much anything else on Fastseduction back then, I read GWM.
The seduction community was not scattered like it became in the 2010s then -- if you were in seduction from the late 1990s to the mid-2000-naughts, you were on ASF, and you were probably reading Gunwitch method, and dealing with a bunch of tech (like AIs and such) that Jay and Rey and Gun and the other guys developed then, alongside guys like Ross, Mystery, Razorjack, IN10SE, MrSex4uNYC, and a bunch of other highly influential early guys.
If you have trouble thinking about this, just think of yourself like being the great-grandkid dealing with his crotchety great-grandfather. The kid is running around saying, "I've been using this great idea!" and the great-grandfather is shaking his cane saying, "Hey you varmint! Don't forget where you got that idea from! It comes from me!"
And you're going, "Shut up, old man! I got this from Pa!"
And he's going, "Where do you think your pa got that from? He got it from
his pa, who got it from
me! So show some respect, dagnabbit!"
I quote in my book, posts and in my blog tons of good seducers, why?
I'm not arguing that.
I don't doubt you had no idea it was Gunwitch's.
See, here's what I think is happening here: two moderately paranoid guys arguing.
Gunwitch thought you obviously must have known that was his and stole it intentionally. I don't believe you did.
You think that
I think you are intentionally swiping guys' material and deliberately not giving them credit. Again I do not believe that at all. I also KNOW you give plenty of credit.
If this thread consisted of:
- Skills: "here's this cool tactic"
- Gun: "hey I originated that tactic"
- Skills: "oh hey I didn't know that, great tactic bro"
It would be a closed thread and I wouldn't need to spend my time on here.
Instead it's turned into an attribution dustup between two senior members, with one claiming the other stole his tech, and the accused claiming back that it probably wasn't really that other guy's tech.
My role was to come on here, say, "Gunwitch is right; he was heavily involved in this stuff at the beginning, so it is his tech (or in the case of the fighting stance one may well be, I don't recall, but I do know it was already around in 2005 because I was using it back then)."
I said nothing about "this guy intentionally stole this" or "that guy is being an asshole about attribution" or what.
If I was you, I would've said, "I forget where I got this from, but..." and you could've avoided the attribution kerfuffle.
Likewise, if I was Gun, I would've said, "Hey dude, glad you're enjoying that one. I realize it's circulated around the community quite a bit. Believe it or not, I introduced it way back in '03 or '04. Got a whole method around it. Thrilled to see guys still using it!"
Instead, you skipped attribution, and Gunwitch was rude.
So now you two are fighting
^unfortunately you are.... basically you are saying "skills you stole this from gun and did not credit him" subcommunication....
This is why forums are so horrible for communication.
This is NOT what I said.
I said, "Skills, looks like Gun is right, he's the originator / heavily involved in origination."
I did not say, "Skills, you thieving tactics cutpurse!"
I know you give credit when you know it and I'd be very surprised about you intentionally not crediting someone.
My assumption was, as you said in later posts in your thread, you had no idea about the history of the tech.
Which is the normal thing that happens in communities.
Gunwitch I guess assumed you stole it because Gunwitch has a habit of leaping to the worst conclusions sometimes. Then chilling out once he gets all the evidence in.
That was never my conclusion at all.
^ why not send this on pm to you... this shit need to stop... i know velasco did not do this shit! He is just a bullie, always have been with the women of nextasf, always will be.... The reason we have problems is cause i fucking beat up bullies in the street he try to fuck with present a female poster i confronted him... since then he has a hard on for me...
That message was immediately after
@Starboy mentioned he'd been blocked from logging in several times by IP address.
I flagged Gunwitch in that message and noted that a bunch of New York City IPs were banned by Gunwitch, all with the same message.
It turned out when he banned
@Velasco, he also banned all his IPs in one fell swoop, not realizing they were public IP addresses from the New York City public wifi, which then blocked many NYC users from accessing the site.
I don't know why Gun responding on my profile, I assume it was in error.
But see -- why are we discussing all these unrelated things in this thread?
The only thing I came on here to say was, "Skills, Gun was heavily involved in the origin of pAImAI, and the fighting stance opener is quite old, it may well originate from him."
^ good for him... and that is great! and i know he influence and help teevester and bacchaus and some of the guys here at the start, and that is good, i don't doubt this... but he is paranoid and think everyone is stealing.... like this post sample...
Well, I will give you that.
Gun can be a little on the paranoid side sometimes.
Though... so can you
^ i read both there is overlap but they are totally different, 60 relies on none verbal and micro escalation... Gunwitch game now a days is nothing like that... does not mean 60yoc stole gunwitch, influence yes.... But the word "steal" i don't think so...
I'd agree, 'steal' is a strong word.
People can be pretty defensive about their babies.
When I first started seeing other websites where the method was basically carbon-copied Chase Amante material with just a few extra things mixed in, my first thought was, "What the hell, guys are stealing my stuff!"
But then I chilled out, and was like, "Well, we're the highest traffic site in the world on this, and my material's all over it, and public, and guys are constantly coming and saying this stuff changed their lives. So obviously I am training legions of students in my methods, and some of those guys are going to start their own sites to help guys with girls, and they are going to be teaching what they do, which is mostly going to be stuff from me." And I made my peace with it.
Not everybody is going to be that same way.
Gary Larson, the guy who did the Far Side comics, has waged a ruthless war on the entire Internet to keep his comics off the web because he says he feels like it is stealing or using the art improperly or something whenever he sees his own comics on the web. He says he feels violated. He asks fans not to post them, and then he DMCAs and I think sometimes sues anyone who does.
There are other comics who don't care at all if people post their stuff far and wide.
Different people have these different reactions to this sort of thing.
i got it from the field, puas can do similar shit, i have been doing 60 yoc, david d cocky funny, grandmaster, since i am 17 before there was a community, i did not STEAL OR READ FROM GUNWITH OR SWINGCAT or masf or _________ fill in the blank the fighting stance, is SOMETHING THAT I CAME UP WITH IN THE FIELD NATURALLY
Okay.
Well in that case that's all you needed to say to Gunwitch. You didn't need to get into a debate with him.
"Hey man, I wasn't aware of your fighting stance opener. Credit to you then. This was one I came up with on my own, or maybe I came across someone talking about it somewhere and it stuck in there. It's a great opener."
That's all. Situation handled.
Instead you got into this back-and-forth (and I realize he was rude, so you're going to want to defend yourself), but once it gets to the point where you're saying, "Hey, I don't think you actually came up with this, you're just paranoid," the conversation has changed.
It's no longer about, "Did you know someone else came up with this first when you posted it?"; instead you have made it about "Did this other guy actually originate XYZ thing in the pickup community or not?"
Which was where I entered it at.
I said nothing at all about your state of mind or intentions or foreknowledge or any of that. I don't know what's in your head; and I assume you're perfectly competent speaking for yourself on that
^ not what happened here, i was an a club, girl bump into me, i overexagerated and cause a shit storm, and did the fighting stance, she cried...
Honestly I did not totally understand that OP. It is somewhat confusingly written.
(actually, I'm still not following the chain of events here. Like this? 1. girl bumps you, 2. you get ready to beat her up and act really angry, 3. she starts crying, 4. ???, 5. profit? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know. Maybe if this is a unique tactic we could move this thread to the community board and you could post a new, clearly written thread about it that Gunwitch won't take issue with)
P.s. in case this gets deleted i taken multiple screen shots...
Why would it get deleted?
You & Gunwitch, man... you guys argue like cats & dogs!
And trust each other about as much...!
Chase