Openers  The fighting stance opener (lame lay report bonus)

Gunwitch

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Also BD and Tubaru were camming with "lively", she fuckin went nutts cause I banned Present, came in sedfast chat and threatened to SWAT me.

You also egged that on.


Gun
 

Skills

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Hands up opener original:


Not saying on either NO WAY you weren't discovering same thing from being in field, its male to female dynamics, these things are up in the air.

I'm a stickler when I remember I specific championed an idea in community though, then I see it taught by someone else with no credit.

Barring a few guys who've given me so much credit, so many plugs, it gets redundant.


Gun


Dude you wasted everyones time with your drama, ^ i would never ever ever ever ever do any of the shit that you describe there, i ACTUALLY WANT TO GET LAID, RE-READ WHAT FUCKING HAPPEND IN THE CLUB, WASTING EVERYONE TIME WITH THAT GARBAGE... I would never do what you describe in the audio on the club, i will do a video to show you what i describe in the post and what i didi with one of my girls so you can fucking see the diference...


Be right back he just uploaded this shit!
be right back sounds NOTHING LIKE WHAT HAPPEND IN MY LAY REPORT!
be right back wasting everyones time with this shit!


Gunwitch i never read that shit, i never listen to that shit... I would have never ever found that shit in the internet and THAT SHIT IS NOTHING LIKE WHAT I DESCRIBE IN THIS POST.....
 
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Skills

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Not crazy enough to fabricate this by any means.. not my best work also by any means spelling and typos, just showing it to give SOME "proof"

Hell it's a way old product, simplified version of my current products WAY back, so no threat to give away free or anything.

Page 87 is 2003ish Approach induction simplified vs Formhandle PAIMAI he and I and Crablouse worked out in threads. Workable in field shit vs theory of the time.

And other attached in next reply with hands up opener, again, wanna think i'm crazy enough to make this up, ill call in ex customers, 100 guys if I have to, Way of Gun was a product and this is a track I uploaded from it.

^ this is also no what i do jesus christ!


and this:

 

Chase

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Am I being gaslit... about gaslighting?

Gaslighting is trying to make someone question his own reality.

Saying, "Hey, somebody else was talking about this years ago. Here's a link to the proof," is now gaslighting?

Is that kinda like how someone saying, "I don't see race," is actually guilt of unconscious racism, for not recognizing the racial struggles of the oppressed proletariat, or something?

Anyway, it was my intention to NOT get drawn into a debate here, but since this is targeted at me now, I guess I am. So, a few points:

skills: dude i never did this is like me thinking that you stole forcing ais and rename it..... I was trying to make a freaking analogy...

gun: yes you did i know when i smell bullshit you stole from me......

chase: skills please give credit when credit is due (a dude that had a long history of going out of the way to quote chase, teevester, gunwitch and the poster that name drops and quotes the most in the history of the seduction community, teevester aka alek rosland is quoted hundreds of times in my blogs and videos)

skills: chase i always quote always, is my history and my track record...

chase: i read that in swingcat

skills: i never read swincat...

chase: dude please give quotes and credit...

skills: chase i never was in masf, i never read swingcat, i never read or purchase the way of the gun....

All right. Let me explain the subtext here as a play-by-play.

  • Skills posts the fighting stance opener to the T/T board

  • This is not like posting an "I got laid with the fighting stance opener" LR to field reports board, where you can probably skip attribution and nobody will care. I doubt Gunwitch would care. The T/T board is generally understood to be a place for sharing new tactics and techniques you have come up with, or else expansion/refinement of existing tech. If everyone knows who originated the existing tech there's not really a need to attribute. e.g., if somebody comes on here and says, "Here's this new way to deep dive I came up with" he doesn't need to say (credit: Chase on the original deep diving concept) because everyone more or less knows where that comes from. But if he's on SoSuave.net, and SoSuave has a tactics board (I've no idea if it has) decorum dictates he at least mention where he got the original tech from

  • Skills knows he did not come up with AIs, pAImAIs, the fighting stance opener, etc., that are what this post in T/T is about, himself. In fact, in the thread he talks about getting stuff from Steve Jabba or whomever. The normal way to discuss this in a T/T post if you aren't sure of source attribution would be "Hey, here's an old tech I like making use of" or "I forget where I got this, but blah blah"

  • Skills doesn't claim to have invented the tech. He also does not attribute it. It's just sort of there, a contribution of his to the T/T board

  • If the guy who introduced the tech, or played a founding role in its development, is there, he is likely to see someone else posting this tech unattributed to the T/T board as an attempt to take credit as being an originator of that tech

  • If the credit goes uncorrected, and the tech catches on, then you start to see guys posting on the Boards about "I was using Skills's 'fighting stance opener', doing this thing Skills talks about to get girls to notice you and bump into you, and..." Then the guy who's the originator of that has to deal with more people muddying the waters on his contribution

I will say I am personally not super worried about attribution to me personally, although I do appreciate it. If it's a major thing I will correct it, but I will see guys saying, "This tech I got from Hector," or, "This thing I got from Franco (our old mod)," or what have you and it is some small-but-useful thing the guy who's getting the attribution in fact learned from me. But I do not worry about that. Because, well, that is what happens in fields over time. You train a generation of guys, then they train a generation of guys, and so on, and the attribution gets muddy as it trickles down through student generations.

That said, different people are going to be different about their feelings toward attribution.

Gunwitch is one of the few guys still in the pickup community from 20 years ago, because he cares a lot about the space, and he also cares about his legacy and is proud of his contributions. You might not be able to trace the impact of his stuff, since the guys you studied studied guys who studied Gun, and you don't know all the details of that, but his influence is far-reaching. When I joined mASF in 2005 Gunwitch Method was plastered everywhere and it was one of the first things the forum pushed you to read. Before I read pretty much anything else on Fastseduction back then, I read GWM.

The seduction community was not scattered like it became in the 2010s then -- if you were in seduction from the late 1990s to the mid-2000-naughts, you were on ASF, and you were probably reading Gunwitch method, and dealing with a bunch of tech (like AIs and such) that Jay and Rey and Gun and the other guys developed then, alongside guys like Ross, Mystery, Razorjack, IN10SE, MrSex4uNYC, and a bunch of other highly influential early guys.

If you have trouble thinking about this, just think of yourself like being the great-grandkid dealing with his crotchety great-grandfather. The kid is running around saying, "I've been using this great idea!" and the great-grandfather is shaking his cane saying, "Hey you varmint! Don't forget where you got that idea from! It comes from me!"

And you're going, "Shut up, old man! I got this from Pa!"

And he's going, "Where do you think your pa got that from? He got it from his pa, who got it from me! So show some respect, dagnabbit!"

I quote in my book, posts and in my blog tons of good seducers, why?

I'm not arguing that.

I don't doubt you had no idea it was Gunwitch's.

See, here's what I think is happening here: two moderately paranoid guys arguing.

Gunwitch thought you obviously must have known that was his and stole it intentionally. I don't believe you did.

You think that I think you are intentionally swiping guys' material and deliberately not giving them credit. Again I do not believe that at all. I also KNOW you give plenty of credit.

If this thread consisted of:

  1. Skills: "here's this cool tactic"
  2. Gun: "hey I originated that tactic"
  3. Skills: "oh hey I didn't know that, great tactic bro"

It would be a closed thread and I wouldn't need to spend my time on here.

Instead it's turned into an attribution dustup between two senior members, with one claiming the other stole his tech, and the accused claiming back that it probably wasn't really that other guy's tech.

My role was to come on here, say, "Gunwitch is right; he was heavily involved in this stuff at the beginning, so it is his tech (or in the case of the fighting stance one may well be, I don't recall, but I do know it was already around in 2005 because I was using it back then)."

I said nothing about "this guy intentionally stole this" or "that guy is being an asshole about attribution" or what.

If I was you, I would've said, "I forget where I got this from, but..." and you could've avoided the attribution kerfuffle.

Likewise, if I was Gun, I would've said, "Hey dude, glad you're enjoying that one. I realize it's circulated around the community quite a bit. Believe it or not, I introduced it way back in '03 or '04. Got a whole method around it. Thrilled to see guys still using it!"

Instead, you skipped attribution, and Gunwitch was rude.

So now you two are fighting ;)

^unfortunately you are.... basically you are saying "skills you stole this from gun and did not credit him" subcommunication....

:mad:

This is why forums are so horrible for communication.

This is NOT what I said.

I said, "Skills, looks like Gun is right, he's the originator / heavily involved in origination."

I did not say, "Skills, you thieving tactics cutpurse!"

I know you give credit when you know it and I'd be very surprised about you intentionally not crediting someone.

My assumption was, as you said in later posts in your thread, you had no idea about the history of the tech.

Which is the normal thing that happens in communities.

Gunwitch I guess assumed you stole it because Gunwitch has a habit of leaping to the worst conclusions sometimes. Then chilling out once he gets all the evidence in.

That was never my conclusion at all.


^ why not send this on pm to you... this shit need to stop... i know velasco did not do this shit! He is just a bullie, always have been with the women of nextasf, always will be.... The reason we have problems is cause i fucking beat up bullies in the street he try to fuck with present a female poster i confronted him... since then he has a hard on for me...

That message was immediately after @Starboy mentioned he'd been blocked from logging in several times by IP address.

I flagged Gunwitch in that message and noted that a bunch of New York City IPs were banned by Gunwitch, all with the same message.

It turned out when he banned @Velasco, he also banned all his IPs in one fell swoop, not realizing they were public IP addresses from the New York City public wifi, which then blocked many NYC users from accessing the site.

I don't know why Gun responding on my profile, I assume it was in error.

But see -- why are we discussing all these unrelated things in this thread?

The only thing I came on here to say was, "Skills, Gun was heavily involved in the origin of pAImAI, and the fighting stance opener is quite old, it may well originate from him."

^ good for him... and that is great! and i know he influence and help teevester and bacchaus and some of the guys here at the start, and that is good, i don't doubt this... but he is paranoid and think everyone is stealing.... like this post sample...

Well, I will give you that.

Gun can be a little on the paranoid side sometimes.

Though... so can you :)

^ i read both there is overlap but they are totally different, 60 relies on none verbal and micro escalation... Gunwitch game now a days is nothing like that... does not mean 60yoc stole gunwitch, influence yes.... But the word "steal" i don't think so...

I'd agree, 'steal' is a strong word.

People can be pretty defensive about their babies.

When I first started seeing other websites where the method was basically carbon-copied Chase Amante material with just a few extra things mixed in, my first thought was, "What the hell, guys are stealing my stuff!"

But then I chilled out, and was like, "Well, we're the highest traffic site in the world on this, and my material's all over it, and public, and guys are constantly coming and saying this stuff changed their lives. So obviously I am training legions of students in my methods, and some of those guys are going to start their own sites to help guys with girls, and they are going to be teaching what they do, which is mostly going to be stuff from me." And I made my peace with it.

Not everybody is going to be that same way.

Gary Larson, the guy who did the Far Side comics, has waged a ruthless war on the entire Internet to keep his comics off the web because he says he feels like it is stealing or using the art improperly or something whenever he sees his own comics on the web. He says he feels violated. He asks fans not to post them, and then he DMCAs and I think sometimes sues anyone who does.

There are other comics who don't care at all if people post their stuff far and wide.

Different people have these different reactions to this sort of thing.

i got it from the field, puas can do similar shit, i have been doing 60 yoc, david d cocky funny, grandmaster, since i am 17 before there was a community, i did not STEAL OR READ FROM GUNWITH OR SWINGCAT or masf or _________ fill in the blank the fighting stance, is SOMETHING THAT I CAME UP WITH IN THE FIELD NATURALLY

Okay.

Well in that case that's all you needed to say to Gunwitch. You didn't need to get into a debate with him.

"Hey man, I wasn't aware of your fighting stance opener. Credit to you then. This was one I came up with on my own, or maybe I came across someone talking about it somewhere and it stuck in there. It's a great opener."

That's all. Situation handled.

Instead you got into this back-and-forth (and I realize he was rude, so you're going to want to defend yourself), but once it gets to the point where you're saying, "Hey, I don't think you actually came up with this, you're just paranoid," the conversation has changed.

It's no longer about, "Did you know someone else came up with this first when you posted it?"; instead you have made it about "Did this other guy actually originate XYZ thing in the pickup community or not?"

Which was where I entered it at.

I said nothing at all about your state of mind or intentions or foreknowledge or any of that. I don't know what's in your head; and I assume you're perfectly competent speaking for yourself on that :D

^ not what happened here, i was an a club, girl bump into me, i overexagerated and cause a shit storm, and did the fighting stance, she cried...

Honestly I did not totally understand that OP. It is somewhat confusingly written.

(actually, I'm still not following the chain of events here. Like this? 1. girl bumps you, 2. you get ready to beat her up and act really angry, 3. she starts crying, 4. ???, 5. profit? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know. Maybe if this is a unique tactic we could move this thread to the community board and you could post a new, clearly written thread about it that Gunwitch won't take issue with)

P.s. in case this gets deleted i taken multiple screen shots...

Why would it get deleted?

You & Gunwitch, man... you guys argue like cats & dogs!

And trust each other about as much...!

Chase
 

Skills

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@Chase

Honestly I did not totally understand that OP. It is somewhat confusingly written.

(actually, I'm still not following the chain of events here. Like this? 1. girl bumps you, 2. you get ready to beat her up and act really angry, 3. she starts crying, 4. ???, 5. profit? I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know. Maybe if this is a unique tactic we could move this thread to the community board and you could post a new, clearly written thread about it that Gunwitch won't take issue with)
4.- i ask her whats wrong (she was crying cause her phone got stolen and lost her friends. 5.- I comfort her and made her feel that things would be ok and i was going to take care of her... 6.- befriend the couple she was with 7.- drove them home 8.- profit


Basically, i saw my wing primo, i was saying hi to him and walking against me in a narrow path to the exit was a tall blonde slim hb, lets call her director of human resources.... As she was walking towards the narrow path she kind of accidentally bump into me super gently, of course i am evil and i made a big shit storm out of it, i took the mma fighting stance and told her using my fake angry method "what is your problem you want to fight", she look at me in the eyes, and started "crying" fuck my life lol, i told her in a very fatherly way "what is wrong"....

hb: " i lost my phone and my credit cards and my friends left me"--- crying like breaking down...

now i am thinking is this a pro aka prostitute trying to get me to buy her shit??


skills: look at me, look at me (commanding voice), don't worry you are going to be ok, you need to trust me, make out

hb: why are you kissing me?

skills: ignore like nothing happened it was an accident..

hb: "i had them here" as she open the purse she found them "facepalm", but i lost my phone and my friend, i can't believe she left me...

what happens it turns out that her friend was meeting some civilian from bumble, and they got kind of lost, she was just outside the club getting pizza with the civilian...

skills: i got you, we are going to go from bar station to station to look at your phone,

hb: but i lost my friends..

skills: i am your friend now i will take care of you, where do you live

hb: stewart (an hour from west palm)

skills: i got you don't worry, i don't drink, i am safe, not a creeper i will take care of you...What are you drinking?(reason is primo had a table it was his birthday, i ain't paying)

so got her a drink from primo table it was a mission, cause no cups and i don't know shit about alcohol or to mix, so it was not smooth... gave her the drink, make out...

time to leave the club (skills this easy peachy you are going to get laid)

FUCK MY LIFE...

her female friend, and the civilian bumble date outside the club waiting....

As soon as i saw them, i explain how humor is crucial when befriending groups in cold approach, actually there is not stronger weapon in my opinion....


skills to her friend: "what kind of friend you are leaving your friend alone, i had to be her bodyguard, her detective and her therapist, you are a bad friend...

friend: lol i love him... he looks like vin diesel, you want pizza

skills: yeah they call me latin diesel...,

me to target: "fuck my life now that i found them there goes my lay"

target: laughs...

target friend and orbiter looking for ubber on the phone...

skills: hey guys i got you, you don't need ubber i don't drink...

we go in the car, i crack jokes, we get to the hb friend place, more socializing, the civilian and the friend, go to the beedroom... we take the couch....

i fucked her in the couch, my dick about to explode every 2 seconds, this is the tightest most beautiful pussy i ever had.... (but fuck my life i fucked her last night aka a week after and is just a normal pussy, turns out that she had no fucked in 2 years, after i fucked her last week i stretch her pussy to normal, so nothing special there, though this week i realized she is good at giving head, last week she was lazy)


p.s. that night i also bang the girl i am currently seeing was her birthday...
 

Gunwitch

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I bet if Gunwitch and Skills met up in real life they'd become fast friends.
Anythings possible. Hell Velasco and I had hours long conversations for years. Practically were close to online friends as ya can get. Moderation is moderation though, when someones being "the Villain" and you're the cop.....

Skills and I use to be friendly on sedfast, hell I thanked him for helping me out early on with a thread "debunking the shit around Gunwitch" or some such.

That chat stuff was just like someone standing over ya going "YOU GOT KNOCKED THE FUCK OUT!" Already dealing with drama, someones hyper and making jokes during it, sours ya. See it again, start to wonder if it's their personality style period. I worked security in clubs for a period and we called em "hype men", instead of breaking up the fight or staying out of it, it'd be "ohhhhh you gonna let him talk to you that way?" style stuff.


Gun
 

Gunwitch

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Likewise, if I was Gun, I would've said, "Hey dude, glad you're enjoying that one. I realize it's circulated around the community quite a bit. Believe it or not, I introduced it way back in '03 or '04. Got a whole method around it. Thrilled to see guys still using it!"

Yeah someone showed me the thread a while back and it was unimportant enough to just ignore it. I noticed it again and was irritated by it, all the martial arts stance stuff etc, so I made the comment. Coulda been more diplomatic but hell he even called it lame.

Gary Larson, the guy who did the Far Side comics, has waged a ruthless war on the entire Internet to keep his comics off the web because he says he feels like it is stealing or using the art improperly or something whenever he sees his own comics on the web. He says he feels violated. He asks fans not to post them, and then he DMCAs and I think sometimes sues anyone who does.
I before a product launch, figure out the name and all, and load slugs on torrents, by time its launched they've duplicated so many times the search results are riddled with static air files or episodes of old podcasts (one idiot once commented, his new material is lousey, he makes a bunch of jokes and even talks about how to fight a dog barehanded, WTF haha).

I had a guy post a comment in one of the torrents once "stop this Gunwitch", like a burglar getting mad cause ya installed an alarm system.

The slug method Probably seems petty to some. Anyone heard of it anyplace else while on the topic, ironic, I came up with it on own, someone has to have had the idea though? Long run it doesn't matter much at all, but for a product launch it helps tons.

Like my thank you page use to say on one product post sale, "i'm a lone guy who makes a living with this stuff, not a millionaire with a mansion, please don't share".

One torrent of my Way of Gun product once had 77 thousand downloads, that product was 80 bucks, sure they wouldnt have all paid for it, but do the math and it's a little annoying.


Gun
 

Fuck This

Cro-Magnon Man
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Alright you two knock this Pissin' match off...My Girlfriend was doing Kickboxing routines to save parking spaces for her friends in San Jose in the 90's...
 

Skills

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Alright you two knock this Pissin' match off...My Girlfriend was doing Kickboxing routines to save parking spaces for her friends in San Jose in the 90's...

facepalm, what does this has to do with the post and opening???? and it was already put to rest by chase...

you should do a post called "how to save parking spots doing mma fighting stances... i doubt anybody would want to take credit for that...


@Chase P.s. if admins. or mods want to put at the end of the post in bold something like:

After a big back and forth and misunderstanding it seems that gunwitch had written some type of fighting technique in one of his products and thought that skills read/heard that and made this post based on that, but it was just a coincidence... so attribution gunwitch

end of the story...


P.s. if anyone has problem with me i am available pm or better yet TRIBAL ELDER FORUM..


 
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