Date Plans The lover provider balance keep it ambiguous - troubleshooting

[Skills]

So guys i get many pms, and i see posts about lover provider a lot, people misunderstand the whole thing, this is one of the topics people don't get due to nuances.

Ok the lover provider stuff has been discussed to death, and yes it is important, super important..... But as always there are nuances and context when it comes to seduction.... You need to understand that due to the nature of the now market, there is less room for error, and women have the perception of more choices.....
Again seduction is a game of odds, and again we want to minimize asd/resistance as much as possible.... The seduction community is full of many different seducers with different goals.... If you are screening for dtf girls (girls that are in heat and looking for a fling and are green for you) then yes it makes a lot of sense to come across as lover specially on apps, in clubs etc... The thing is now a days in USA as i keep repeating the dtf women are way fewer and available now that back in the days (many of you will not even understand cause you did not game in the peaks of the movement)..... But lets assume that you do find and are interacting with this women that is only 10% of the market, i would say now even less(in my opinion that has gone to less than 3%)..... You are going to make your living with the yellows/maybe girls, the thing is to increase your odds, specially if you are on a second encounter, or on date or texting or on the app etc... You showing too much lover without enough intelligence on what she wants, may kill the whole thing, but again you must come across as lover, see is a contradiction....

So the solution is you need to keep it as ambiguous, vague, confusing, you can not be clear...... How we do this is you want to come across more than 70% lover but you want to give her a chance on the belief that she may get a chance if everything lines up correctly, and you see how awesome she is that she can be your girlfriend, wife etc.... one day.

- There are some guys that have fuck boy written all over them and can not come under the radar, when i meet a girl she already know i am a lover, i don't even need to open my mouth, i know other seducers that have that style and look velasco rip, @TomInHo that scream fuck boy so there is not need to even sell it, but be more sweet, subtle....

Don't engage into poly, mono talk, i know a lot of you guys are proud of being poly and all this stuff, but you are just making things harder for yourself and raising asd and losing some women talking about this type of stuff, again keep it ambiguous:

hb: what are you looking for?

me: a cool girl with great connection and chemistry (provider/bf/chick crack answer) that i can have AMAZING sex with (lover answer)..... See how i can combine both and keep it confusing, ambiguous...

Some girls press you about seeing other women, guys become pupu with this and fuck it up, here is how to handle it, the answer itself is a dhv:

seducer no kids goal like me: " To be totally honest with you i date, in other words i like to get to know the person, it take 3 to 6 months to get to know someone, most people settle and jump into the relationship right away just to be in a so called relationship... I like to date and pick the best partner that i feel is most compatible to me and my lifestyle and if i happen to find that partner i am not oppose to being exclusive......(subcommunication i fuck a lot of girls and i am fucking a lot of girls, you can come and fuck me too, and there may be a chance if everything lines up that you could be a gf)

^ if you want kids like pure evil wanted or some other dudes, and you have intelligence that she wants kids you can throw at the end of the ^ and even have kids i am sure i will be an amazing father...

if she ask if you are having sex with those women? you can say nah with a evil grin! (but she knows is bs), or you can say no always and go into second gen

if she keeps asking you what are we: are we in middle school? in an annoyed tone, do you like me, do you enjoy my company, then why fuck around with silly titles...

other troubleshooting:

- if you are on dates try to schedule them post dinner time, the later the better after 8 pm is a good time. Try not to schedule days morning or afternoons, unless insta date from day game..

- if you get corner where the girl has not eating and needs to eat just give her two choices:

- tacos is IDEAL (never met a girl that does not like taco) make sure you find out taco places close to where you are going to be and have everything ready always pre plan.

or Bistro (but i would stick to tacos)..... the reason is taco is very none courtship, all women love tacos, cheap, and she will not be blooded for sex, same with bistro.


- ALWAYS PAY, take the masculine role, even if she offers....(unless she is demanding and you can see she is trying to tool you)

- right balance is to come across again over 70 % lover the rest boyfriend possibility.


----------------------

Edit/Disclaimer: I was speaking to some guys, and they made the point time of the day does no matter..... And this is TRUE, I started looking back and i lay plenty of girls during the day time.....


^ I was thinking of odds perspective.... Night time on a date post dinner time may have a bit higher odds that during the day (you also may avoid getting corner into dinner, lunch, breakfast territory), but you can get laid during the day, i did it a looot and some other guys as well.... Now some women specifically try to meet you during the day as a preemptive measure to avoid sex, so keep this in mind.


But in my opinion night time post dinner has the connotation sex may happen, but during the day you can get laid as well and in some cases her guard is down a point @topcat and @TomInHo brought up.

 

[Bismarck]

Thanks for this instructional post Skills. I like some of the advice, like having an eat-on-the-go place in your back pocket in case she tries to dynamite the whole thing and the general gist that nowadays (with dating apps and the proliferation of SoMe) a guy has to still make it seem like he could be her provider (pure lover doesn't cut it anymore). I had a problem with trying pure lover back in November when I went to visit the Russian I'd fast fucked for a second sesh and got nothing but blue balls.

However, I would like you to perhaps explain a bit further what you mean by "always pay"? I assume you say this because otherwise you ooze lover from every pore, so here you're balancing things by adding a "provider" touch. I'm wondering if other guys who may not look so fuckboy (e.g. without a particularly muscular physique, abundant male jewelry, or even a perfect state from comfortable and rejuvenating sleep with strong and unblinking eye contact) should hold off on paying for the girl's drinks/food at the risk of coming off nice-guy-Eddie and shooting themselves in the foot.

 

[Skills]

Thanks for this instructional post Skills. I like some of the advice, like having an eat-on-the-go place in your back pocket in case she tries to dynamite the whole thing and the general gist that nowadays (with dating apps and the proliferation of SoMe) a guy has to still make it seem like he could be her provider (pure lover doesn't cut it anymore). I had a problem with trying pure lover back in November when I went to visit the Russian I'd fast fucked for a second sesh and got nothing but blue balls.

However, I would like you to perhaps explain a bit further what you mean by "always pay"? I assume you say this because otherwise you ooze lover from every pore, so here you're balancing things by adding a "provider" touch. I'm wondering if other guys who may not look so fuckboy (e.g. without a particularly muscular physique, abundant male jewelry, or even a perfect state from comfortable and rejuvenating sleep with strong and unblinking eye contact) should hold off on paying for the girl's drinks/food at the risk of coming off nice-guy-Eddie and shooting themselves in the foot.

Bis i am the cheapest dude in the whole forum. .. but i believe you should pay cause is the masculine role.... usually i spend max $15 on the high end if i get corner in a paying situation.... also i am talking pre-sex context, you paying on a none courtship date has 0 chance to put you in nice guy land zero with capital z

P.s yeah that lay report perfect sample you get it...

 

[Don Giovanni]

I'm a newbie, but I have a feeling I know what you're talking about. Just came back from a date, couldn't pull (attempted twice) because she wasn't comfortable yet, but obviously liked me, texted me ''really enjoyed our time'' right after...

Anyway, love your take, I'm really curious if @Teevster has anything to add.

 

[Skills]

unfortunately i can not edit this post, but i will make an addendum:

I was speaking to some guys, and they made the point time of the day does no matter..... And this is TRUE, I started looking back and i lay plenty of girls during the day time.....


^ I was thinking of odds perspective.... Night time on a date post dinner time may have a bit higher odds that during the day, but you can get laid during the day, i did it a looot and some other guys as well....


But in my opinion night time post dinner has the connotation sex may happen, but during the day you can make the point, you can flip it cause her guard is down a point @topcat and @TomInHo brought up

 

[Teevster]

unfortunately i can not edit this post, but i will make an addendum:

I was speaking to some guys, and they made the point time of the day does no matter..... And this is TRUE, I started looking back and i lay plenty of girls during the day time.....


^ I was thinking of odds perspective.... Night time on a date post dinner time may have a bit higher odds that during the day, but you can get laid during the day, i did it a looot and some other guys as well....


But in my opinion night time post dinner has the connotation sex may happen, but during the day you can make the point, you can flip it cause her guard is down a point @topcat and @TomInHo brought up

I can edit for you, just give me the instructions.

 

[Mr Mistah]

Super underated thread

And one of the most important nuances in this space

It's very easy to lean too much into that "come across as a lover" and "disqualify yourself as bf" material that it works against you. Something I recently learnt

Yes the girl saw me as sexual but also unreliable and unromantic.

She was shocked when I said that I like children and want some one day. To her I was just this uncaring brute of a man only looking for a fun time

And when I think back, some of the strongest attraction I ever received was when a girl I had been putting the moves on saw me playing with a small boy and making him laugh.

A clear provider trait but the next time I was face to face with her, her eyes were blazing with desire that I got kinda scared/confused. I didn't understand what was happening at the time until years later when I watched Barney from HIMYM using a random baby in a stroller as a prop to pick up chicks. Same as in Wedding Crashers

If being seen as a provider is so bad for seduction then why do girls go feral when they see a guy being good with kids?

Why do girls get wet when they see a guy fixing shit around the house?

I have a friend whose archetype I can only describe as a "romantic whore" - he usually simps and pours his heart to women but still has one of the biggest rotations in my circle of guy friends. Idk how he does it till this day. But I have a feeling its Hector type game

Maybe we need a proper refresher on how to mix lover & provider traits - because that’s what seems more potent that going full lover alone

And I don't think that's an attainability issue. The way attainability is spoken about here is usually in reference to managing a girls self-esteem to prevent auto-rejection. This is something else - nothing to do with self esteem

Also out of curiosity @Skills how would you answer the question "Do you have a gf?" and the follow up "Why not?" if you don't have one and have no intention of doing so in the near future bc you are playing the field

Also to @Bismarck

Not to derail the thread but I just read the report that you referenced above. Great stuff

You mentioned how when you were escalating on the girl and taking her top off you maintained strong eye contact.

Why is that?

In one of the escalating articles somewhere on the site we are told not to look at the spot we are touching as that brings attention to what we are doing and may cause resistance.

But here you are escalating but still looking right in her eyes?

I am asking bc I did sth similar a while back instinctually but don't yet understand why it worked.

Passed a girl I usually fool around with as I was entering the washrooms (she was leaving), grabbed her and pushed her against the wall. I wanted to eat her

She resisted me and fake started to shout for help (she plays too much) but when I looked her right in the eye and whispered "This will only take a minute." and then took a step back hands up saying "You don't have to do anything you don't want to do" she calmed down then let me proceed to kiss her neck while breathing heavily

I think eye contact + that phrase "You don't have to do anything you don't want to" helped

Just trying to understand why direct eye contact is important during escalation

Tx

 

[Skills]

Super underated thread

And one of the most important nuances in this space

It's very easy to lean too much into that "come across as a lover" and "disqualify yourself as bf" material that it works against you. Something I recently learnt

Yes the girl saw me as sexual but also unreliable and unromantic.

She was shocked when I said that I like children and want some one day. To her I was just this uncaring brute of a man only looking for a fun time

And when I think back, some of the strongest attraction I ever received was when a girl I had been putting the moves on saw me playing with a small boy and making him laugh.

A clear provider trait but the next time I was face to face with her, her eyes were blazing with desire that I got kinda scared/confused. I didn't understand what was happening at the time until years later when I watched Barney from HIMYM using a random baby in a stroller as a prop to pick up chicks. Same as in Wedding Crashers

If being seen as a provider is so bad for seduction then why do girls go feral when they see a guy being good with kids?

Why do girls get wet when they see a guy fixing shit around the house?

I have a friend whose archetype I can only describe as a "romantic whore" - he usually simps and pours his heart to women but still has one of the biggest rotations in my circle of guy friends. Idk how he does it till this day. But I have a feeling its Hector type game

Maybe we need a proper refresher on how to mix lover & provider traits - because that’s what seems more potent that going full lover alone

And I don't think that's an attainability issue. The way attainability is spoken about here is usually in reference to managing a girls self-esteem to prevent auto-rejection. This is something else - nothing to do with self esteem

Also out of curiosity @Skills how would you answer the question "Do you have a gf?" and the follow up "Why not?" if you don't have one and have no intention of doing so in the near future bc you are playing the field

Also to @Bismarck

Not to derail the thread but I just read the report that you referenced above. Great stuff

You mentioned how when you were escalating on the girl and taking her top off you maintained strong eye contact.

Why is that?

In one of the escalating articles somewhere on the site we are told not to look at the spot we are touching as that brings attention to what we are doing and may cause resistance.

But here you are escalating but still looking right in her eyes?

I am asking bc I did sth similar a while back instinctually but don't yet understand why it worked.

Passed a girl I usually fool around with as I was entering the washrooms (she was leaving), grabbed her and pushed her against the wall. I wanted to eat her

She resisted me and fake started to shout for help (she plays too much) but when I looked her right in the eye and whispered "This will only take a minute." and then took a step back hands up saying "You don't have to do anything you don't want to do" she calmed down then let me proceed to kiss her neck while breathing heavily

I think eye contact + that phrase "You don't have to do anything you don't want to" helped

Just trying to understand why direct eye contact is important during escalation

Tx

I have had consistent girlfriends since i am in my early 20s, i have never not had a girlfriend. I have a current relationship for the last 3 years her name in the community is "mrs. skills"

 

[Bismarck]

Super underated thread

And one of the most important nuances in this space

It's very easy to lean too much into that "come across as a lover" and "disqualify yourself as bf" material that it works against you. Something I recently learnt

Yes the girl saw me as sexual but also unreliable and unromantic.

She was shocked when I said that I like children and want some one day. To her I was just this uncaring brute of a man only looking for a fun time

And when I think back, some of the strongest attraction I ever received was when a girl I had been putting the moves on saw me playing with a small boy and making him laugh.

A clear provider trait but the next time I was face to face with her, her eyes were blazing with desire that I got kinda scared/confused. I didn't understand what was happening at the time until years later when I watched Barney from HIMYM using a random baby in a stroller as a prop to pick up chicks. Same as in Wedding Crashers

If being seen as a provider is so bad for seduction then why do girls go feral when they see a guy being good with kids?

Why do girls get wet when they see a guy fixing shit around the house?

I have a friend whose archetype I can only describe as a "romantic whore" - he usually simps and pours his heart to women but still has one of the biggest rotations in my circle of guy friends. Idk how he does it till this day. But I have a feeling its Hector type game

Maybe we need a proper refresher on how to mix lover & provider traits - because that’s what seems more potent that going full lover alone

And I don't think that's an attainability issue. The way attainability is spoken about here is usually in reference to managing a girls self-esteem to prevent auto-rejection. This is something else - nothing to do with self esteem

Also out of curiosity @Skills how would you answer the question "Do you have a gf?" and the follow up "Why not?" if you don't have one and have no intention of doing so in the near future bc you are playing the field

Also to @Bismarck

Not to derail the thread but I just read the report that you referenced above. Great stuff

You mentioned how when you were escalating on the girl and taking her top off you maintained strong eye contact.

Why is that?

In one of the escalating articles somewhere on the site we are told not to look at the spot we are touching as that brings attention to what we are doing and may cause resistance.

But here you are escalating but still looking right in her eyes?

I am asking bc I did sth similar a while back instinctually but don't yet understand why it worked.

Passed a girl I usually fool around with as I was entering the washrooms (she was leaving), grabbed her and pushed her against the wall. I wanted to eat her

She resisted me and fake started to shout for help (she plays too much) but when I looked her right in the eye and whispered "This will only take a minute." and then took a step back hands up saying "You don't have to do anything you don't want to do" she calmed down then let me proceed to kiss her neck while breathing heavily

I think eye contact + that phrase "You don't have to do anything you don't want to" helped

Just trying to understand why direct eye contact is important during escalation

Tx

Hey man thanks for bringing this up.

For me, strong EC is important because it is showing her you fully own what you’re doing, taking responsibility for it.

At the same time, you’re checking in with her, making sure you have her consent.

To this day I still do it when I’m unclothing a girl, especially her panties.